Whither Democracy?

Shah/Bapu/Lajwanti

``Bapu

Lajwanti ,

THIS FOR YOu,

you enjoy so much KHABRAINE that you paste every issue of Friday times ,that i thaught i show you better KHABRAINE of Human Right violations by India rather THAN, Gossip of Urdu sensatinal translatrion in Friday Times.

India’s Secret Army in Kashmir: New Patterns of ``

Dude, this is an extreme case of schizophrenia. Are you now addressing posts to yourself?? That`s the limit. LOL. Jeez, no offence, but you have some serious issues. Do you also have a conversation with yourself in the mirror?

`There are many on both sides that believe that the partition of India is a mistake, indeed that remains to be seen. However now that we have agreed upon it, let us accept it and abide by it as citizens of the sovereign states of Pakistan and India.`

Wonderfully said, and I for one, agree with it completely.

Ylh:

. I am sure even saxena is a great guy, once he comes down from his pedestal and looks at things objectively.

RSaxena has, repeatedly, stated his opinion of Chowk and the interactions that are posted here. He is NOT interested in being objective, at least on Chowk. Besides the fact that he has an acerbic sense of humor.

Anyways, I think you should invite him and Bhartiya Mussulman home for dinner.

Stuka

P.S.: I think you`ll only have to set a table for two.

ylh #227
I am not arguing semantics with you, neither Kashmir. India should just wait and watch what happens, Pakistani indignation at India is a weak persuader esp. in the current circumstances.

As for the legal case of accession, Pakistan did not make Azad Kashmir its 5th Province... India made it its state.... hence Pakistan has maintained the special status of Kashmir within the Pakistani union as per UN resolutions and the `TEMPORARY` Document of accession.

The more you use `POK` the more your lack of objectivity is revealed.

-YLH

Re: YLH

``...Let us bury the ratchet (sic), and while remembering our mutually intertwined histories, let us focus on the future by accepting the realities of the present times, the realities of two great neighbor states with much in common and in difference... and not on what ifs of History....``

Very well said. Now let us act towards meeting that goal, and ignore the barbs that ignormasuses may throw in the path. A rapproachment is not only necessary, it is inevitable (perhaps with or without the current states). BTW, I do not think that our countries are as yet great. They cannot be until something is done about the nearly 500 million poor souls who live on $1/day, starve while they are alive, suffer persecution under one pretext or the other, die by the age of 45, and receive no education.

THOSE are the real problems. Our callous elites are unable or are unwilling to do little about it, and instead focus with a fanatical zeal on issues of strategic affairs, foreign relations and other military contests as a diversionary tactic.

Please read my posts 197 and 198

Furthermore stuka is right. There isnt widespread disenchantment like there is in the Valley. The republic of Azad Kashmir is a sovereign Unit which opted for the Pakistani Commonwealth. For all practical purposes the Republic of Azad Kashmir is a separate country like Puerto Rico is.

As for elections being rigged, which election in Pakistan, India or Bangladesh has been accused of rampant rigging? Does that mean the people of AK want to join India ... I dont think so.

-YLH

Sadna

My previous posts have made it crystal clear that there is no such thing as `POK` ... There is Azad Kashmir which has its own parliamentary set up including the president and prime minister...

Please do not keep building up an argument over sand castles...

-YLH

Dear Macgupta,

Who said anything about Legality being linked with the Utopia ... I dont know if you are mingling issues on purpose, a key characteristic of people who without arguments...

Let me be clear. There is no legality in Indian occupation of Kashmir...

-YLH

Kashmir is as much about Pakistanis` khunnas over India slicing their country in half in 1971 as it is about anything else. Unfortunately for poor Pakis, the status quo is frozen due to the nukes...India is not about to give Kashmir away, at least not until it fights all the way and ends up with its finger on the nukes...and no one in the world is going to let that happen, so the status quo is frozen forever, or until Pakistan collapses internally

Stuka #202 :

There is not a sense of dissatisfaction in Gilgit ? Really ?

``In May,1988, the Shias, who are in a majority in Gilgit, rose in revolt against the Sunni-dominated administration. Zia put an SSG group commanded by Gen. Musharraf in charge of suppressing the revolt. Gen. Musharraf transported a large number of Wahabi Pakhtoon tribesmen from the NWFP and Afghanistan, commanded by bin Laden, to Gilgit to teach the Shias a lesson. These tribesmen under bin Laden massacred hundreds of Shias.

In its issue of May,1990, ``Herald``, the monthly journal of the ``Dawn`` group of publications of Karachi, wrote as follows: `` In May,1988, low-intensity political rivalry and sectarian tension ignited into full-scale carnage as thousands of armed tribesmen from outside Gilgit district invaded Gilgit along the Karakoram Highway. Nobody stopped them. They destroyed crops and houses, lynched and burnt people to death in the villages around Gilgit town. The number of dead and injured was put in the hundreds. But numbers alone tell nothing of the savagery of the invading hordes and the chilling impact it has left on these peaceful valleys.``

Gen. Musharraf started a policy of bringing in Punjabis and Pakhtoons from outside and settling them down in Gilgit and Baltistan in order to reduce the Kashmiri Shias to a minority in their traditional land and this is continuing till today. The ``Friday Times`` of October 15-21, 1992, quoted Mr. Muhammad Yahya Shah, a local Shia leader, as saying: `` We were ruled by the Whites during the British days. We are now being ruled by the Browns from the plains. The rapid settling-in of Punjabis and Pakhtoons from outside, particularly the trading classes, has created a sense of acute insecurity among the local Shias.``

Zia became the first victim of the carnage unleashed by Gen. Musharraf on the Shias of Gilgit. Though the Pakistani authorities have not released the report of the committee, which enquired into the crash of Zia`s plane in August,1988, it is widely believed in Pakistan that a Shia airman from Gilgit, wanting to take revenge for the May,1988, carnage, was responsible for the crash.``

---

India could have but has not manufactured ``consent`` in Kashmir, as Pakistan has done in Gilgit and China has done in Tibet and Xinjiang by changing the demography, importing people to the region.

-Arun Gupta

Sri YLH, Sri Dante, Sri AAmir, and other admirers of Chomsky :

Chomsky is benign because his views no longer count for anything, not in the USA and not in the rest of the world. Enough people have seen through him.

Chomsky is a parasite because he does not understand and support the freedoms that enable him to spew all his nonsense without significant consequence to himself. A parasite is one who lives off the host to the disadvantage of the host.

-Arun Gupta

Check these two out:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0145/kamber.php

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry110701.shtml

Sri YLH #193 :

Of the areas that comprised Raja Hari Singh`s domain, there is the part now in India and the part now controlled by China. Then there is a third part -- only a fraction of which is ``Azad Kashmir``. Now, even if we do not count ``Azad Kashmir`` as Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, what about the rest ?

-Arun Gupta

Stuka #202
`` Well, as much as it hurts me to say this, there really isn`t a widespread demand for freedom there. Unlike the Valley. As much as we would like to blame the Pakistanis, there is a sense of dissatisfaction in the Kashmir Valley, which does not exist in Jammu and Ladakh, and similarly does not exist in Gilgit, Baltistan, POK etc.``

Musharraf is credited with suppressing a rebellion in Gilgit in NA/PoK in `88 under Zia`s orders.

Lets get this mishmash straight though.
If some J&K `ers want independence, what is Pakistan`s standing in all this? J&K has been a part of India since `47, and its for indigenous J&K`ers and Indians and the Indian Parliament to figure out what to do in future, not some Generals in Pakistan.

If Pakistan is bringing up the legal case of accession, then it applies to Pok too, simply J&K or parts of it cannot be considered in isolation. If Pakistan believes in Kashmiri freedom, dating from the choices at Independence then PoK is part of that Kashmir. Let charity begin at home.

If Pakistan is involved on the sole basis of principle, because it wants to be a moral state that upholds freedom like no other country dares to do in Kashmir, then again, why does the Pakistani government need to ask PoK candidates have to sign a document of allegiance to Pakistan to avoid disqualification? And even Pakistani newspapers talk of rigged elections and imposed leaders in PoK, apart from which all administrative decisions for PoK are taken by an incharge in Islamabad. Let charity begin at home.

#214, Sri YLH :



The soundness of India`s case on the legality of the accession of Kashmir has very little to do with India being a ``perfect utopia`` or whatever.

-Arun Gupta