Whither Democracy?

Studebaker/Aeisha/Aamir/Shah #396

`` We dont see HMO system & have no relationship with G.P. that you call Doc.``

``we``? Your MPD is for real?? My deep sympathies, esp if you are outside the health system.

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Tilting again

Richard Rapaport Tuesday, November 13, 2001



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/13/ED126522.DTL





AMERICA`S new best friend, Pakistan`s President Pervez Musharraf, has been a busy strongman since September 11. Weekly, U.S. Cabinet secretaries, the British prime minister, generals and diplomats arrive at Islamabad`s President`s House to pay court. Saturday, at a joint press conference in New York, Major Gen. Musharraf was given President Bush`s public seal of approval and a billion dollars in aid.

All tailored suits and crisp manners, Gen. Musharraf is very much the model of a modern major general, fitting Margaret Thatcher`s characterization of former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev as a man with whom we can do business. Superficially, the match seems reasonable.

Musharraf`s Anglo-Saxon-isms and the Pakistani military`s British personality have helped smooth the way for the West`s ``tilt`` toward the Islamic world`s sole nuclear power. But the United States might want to dampen its enthusiasm for Musharraf and his ``good guy`` status; conjuring, as it does, the Philippine`s Ferdinand Marcos, Chile`s Augusto Pinochet, South Vietnam`s Nguyen Van Thieu, Indonesia`s Suharto and Cambodia`s Lon Nol, all authoritarian ``new best friends`` for whom American benediction and foreign aid did little to ensure their shaky governments or even further long-term American interests.

Similarly, this latest manifestation of America`s foreign policy propensity for taking the easy way out by aligning ourselves with the Pakistani dictator will not necessarily help the United States achieve its goals of stability and peace in South Asia or further the battle against Islamic radicalism. The deal with Pakistan indicates an inability on the part of the United States to think through long-term strategies, and is shameless in its transparency. Only last summer, Pakistan, the chief backer of Afghanistan`s Taliban, was under international sanctions for violating the nuclear-test-ban treaty, supporting terrorists in Kashmir and for the anti-democratic coup that brought Musharraf to power.

There is precedent for America`s latest ``tilt``; the phrase ``tilting toward Pakistan`` has been in the U.S. foreign policy lexicon since the Nixon administration, when the United States supported another modern major general, Yaya Khan, who declared himself president of Pakistan in 1969.

Then as now, America`s South Asian tilt meant cooling relations with Pakistan`s archenemy, India. It also prevents recognizing that India, rather than Pakistan, should be the stable anchor of U.S. regional policy.

The logic is a powerful one. India is a nation created very much in America`s image; a huge, market-driven economic power, which shares a common heritage of English-speaking democracy with the United States. India and the United States are the world`s two largest constitutional democracies. Both have strong political parties committed to representational government. Even during crisis, India has stuck to its democratic guns. By contrast, for half its history, Pakistan has been ruled by ``modern major generals`` such as Musharraf, who have toppled elected leaders.

This totalitarian tendency derives from a fragility that has plagued Pakistan since its independence. Pakistan`s diverse, often-warring ethnic groups have meant a fractious history, with the Pakistani military periodically providing the glue preventing national disintegration. The one unifying issue that has helped hold Pakistan together is the goal of taking the Muslim-majority territory, Kashmir, from India. Kashmir has been the spark for wars and continued tension with India largely because Pakistan`s political disunity necessitates a unifying crusade against a foreign devil.

During these conflicts, India, with a population more diverse than Pakistan`s, maintained its democratic instincts and institutions. In democracy`s greatest test, the Congress Party, which ruled India since independence in 1947, lost its parliamentary majority in 1977 and accepted its role as the opposition party without so much as a whisper of retaining control through unconstitutional means.

But even as a democratic paragon, the party`s socialist ideology clouded U. S.-Indian relations since the late 1940s. Nor did advocacy for nonalignment by India`s first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, endear India to the United States. For Americans, India has been a diplomatic prickly pear, ironically reminiscent of the United States` own spiny world image.

Since the Cold War`s end, much has changed in India. Its command economy is transforming into a powerhouse capitalist engine. India has played a crucial role in America`s technology primacy by providing thousands of engineers and software professionals working in the United States and India. With a middle class of 400 million -- and growing -- India is an increasingly important consumerist partner of the United States.

Demographics alone compel:

India`s population of 1.033 billion is eight times Pakistan`s. Included are 145 million Muslims, equal to the total population of Pakistan and only surpassed by Indonesia as the world`s largest Islamic country.

India`s Muslims are loyal citizens. Which raises the puzzling question of why, while the United States struggles to find linguists and other experts to unravel the Islamic terrorist conundrum, it has not turned to India which has its own large stake in defeating terrorism. In recent years, thousands of Indians have been killed by Kashmiri insurgents, many trained at the al Qaeda camps that produced the September 11 hijackers. Far closer relations with India could provide a bonanza of intelligence capabilities for the United States.

Indians have a right to feel let down by this latest tilt, which the Times of India calls ``The U.S.-Pak Lovefest.`` This is especially true because of the reassessment of U.S.-Indian relations during the Clinton administration.

In 1999, President Clinton delivered an electrifying speech to the Indian Parliament outlining the seeming arrival of intimate relations between the two nations. The speech, a milestone in U.S.-Indian relations, received little notice here.

Even the Bush administration, seemingly determined to undermine all things Clintonian, decided that the rapprochement between India and the United States should continue. Unfortunately September 11`s shock has provoked yet another reflexive ``tilt`` toward Pakistan.

Whatever the tactical gain, U.S. policymakers need to reassess the strategic realities of betting on Musharraf, the fourth general to name himself president of a country that is a poster-child for political instability.

Musharraf is likely to succumb to the political turmoil that undid each of his military dictator-predecessors. And, ironically, greater distance from the United States in the face a rising tide of pro-Taliban and Islamic sentiment in Pakistan may help Musharraf survive longer than will the perception of his status as an American puppet.

Most importantly, America must recognize that it is the superpower India, not the political and economic basket-case Pakistan, that is key to long-term peace and stability in South Asia, and perhaps even to a victory in the war on terrorism. With a solution to Kashmir unlikely, and a violent, perhaps even nuclear confrontation between India and Pakistan a distinct possibility, America needs to think clearly about where its true long-term interests lie and the dangers posed by a Pakistan emboldened by another U.S. tilt.

Richard Rapaport has written about India for Wired and Forbes ASAP.

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PS The IDEAL Of Pakistan should be :

``The new state would be a modern democratic state with sovereignty resting in the people and the members of the new nation having equal rights of

citizenship regardless of their religion, caste or creed.`` (M A. Jinnah, Founder of Pakistan, to Doon Campbell 21st May 1947)``

truth

`One man, one vote; one woman, one vote in a secular framework.`

Well said! Indeed that is the way.

Studebaker/lajwanti/Bijli/Fazia/Fatimah/Deepika/Sadhna/Bharadwaj/Arrested/Nagnatheswar/Aamir/Shah

You didnot tell me, was the US health system indeed gullible enough to hire you as psychiatrist/doctor? Or are you a patient, on whom good money is being thrown away? Kindly let us know which HMO so we can desubscribe.

Reply #: 385

saminashah

Neptune,

re: sigalph`s nick



Samina shah

Did your b.f (neptune)tell u about me, in bed or during the......

Thanksgiving is one of the best holidays!

People gather with their family and friends,

There is all that food!





Everyone loves Thanksgiving!

Well, almost everyone





EXCEPT TURKEY REDSKIN,NEPTUNE &KAMINASHAH





Moving Thoughts



Maybe God wants us to meet a few wrong people before meeting the right one so that when we finally meet the right person, we will know how to be grateful for that gift

Such bundle despicability ,trash slut ,smudge ,sludge ,foaming froth from cancerous lip & syphillitic tongue with gumma.

Reply #: 383

Neptune

Just fell down from my chair laughing and got a lump on my head.

I`ll send you the doctor`s bills.

..............................

DONTY YOU EVER TRY TO POST UNDER MY NICK!

Kanjar Hindians (fmg with no lic.)

What Bill?

Did you ever even have isurance.All your life either the free hospital or our tax dollar for non usmle pass ,illegal ``doc`` from FMG., welfare !!

Reply #: 384

Rdesikan

Re neptune 378

Boy was that funny



2 Hindians smartA$$



I think you are sweeter

than an ice cream cone.



I think you are sweeter

than honey.





think you are are sweeter

than candy.



As a matter of fact I think you

are the sweetest thing on this earth.



Thanks

for being so sweet to me.





.

semiprecious,

Oh all right...but only because you, Dost Mittar, anNy, rsax, Neptune, Zafar, Sadna, Scout and Soysauce asked...

regards

Neptune,

re: sigalph`s nick

This is truly unbelievable... Not only does Ravenna Squared accumulate nicks, but now It is encroaching on the usernames of other interactors. Utterly disrespectful and out of control...

regards

p.s. Has anyone heard from Zahra?

Re neptune 378

Boy was that funny.

saminashah

[Before you grab your crayons for the next post ...]

Just fell down from my chair laughing and got a lump on my head. I`ll send you the doctor`s bills.

samina darlin....you`re wasting your breath...really...it/her/him/whatever isn`t worth it....infact i henceforth forbid you to waste one more post on this sad waste of life (thanks anNy)...

West Pakistan`s client state of East Pakistan lasted 24 years.

Pakistan`s client state of Taliban Afghanistan lasted 5 years.

To all ``Islamists``: Stop this ummah/upma nonsense and join the larger group of humanity.

To all Kashmiris: join India willingly - look at our record outside Kashmir and try to understand why we fight in Kashmir. In Punjab, 40% Hindus happily live with Sikh Chief Ministers. In Goa, the Chief Minister is often Christian, even though Christians are only 25% of the Goan population. In Kerala, religious affiliation of Chief Ministers is like watching weather reports. North East states have converted to Christianity and they still fit in the Indian system (other than Nagaland). Look at Pakistan: Musharaf has to swear he is a Muslim to take oath of office. Abandon this Islamist two nation thinking. One man, one vote; one woman, one vote in a secular framework.

Afghanistan is liberated.

God is Great.

Faiza/12 Head

Can`t deal with the fact that the all the women in my family are professionals, all the professionals in my family are moderate and involved in various professional and cultural orgs? Since you seem to lack the ability to connect the dots, let me spell the last part of my last post s-l-o-w-l-y . My family members are part of civic orgs as well. However, they participate as m-o-d-e-r-a-t-e P-a-k-i-s-t-a-n-i A-m-e-r-i-c-a-n-s. They are part of the A-m-e-r-i-c-a-n p-o-l-i-t-i-c-a-l p-r-o-c-e-s-s- and also organize as P-a-k-i-s-t-a-n-i-s in their various South Asian communities. Which means they do not try to interfere with the politics/social make up of or support fringe groups in Pakistan.

Before you grab your crayons for the next post you send, perhaps you ought to take this post to a local tutoring center and ask a tutor to help you with reading and comprehension. Don`t worry, with lots and lots of work and help, you may be able to surpass the skills of your 5 year old niece. Good luck!

Hello Shrunken-whatever:

It looks like everybody has seen through your bogus claims of being a shrink.

Time to hide for a while, like the Taliban. You have got your Mullah Omar in Tahmad321.

The hydra-headed nuisance

So now you have started to impersonate sigalph, eh? A quick tip on new nicks... why don`t you choose an appropriate name suited to your personality, like `phlegm` or `flatulence`? What about `armpit`? or `wart`? `booger` maybe?

And regarding your frequent claims to be a doctor, I have researched in great detail and found out the possible ways you could have got into medical school:

a) In anatomy class - As a cadaver

b) In microbiology - As specimen

c) In neurology - As a case study

d) In medicine - As a suppository

e) In orthopaedics - As a bunion

d) In tropical medicine - As a nematode

Now I have no doubt that indeed you have been to medical school. How is your vacuole?

Neptune:

“Shankar #341

Re: the hydra-headed retard

[EVERYBODY knows you come to Chowk with several identities...]

Ahah! So I did manage to convince you that time!

Best regards

Mycroft Holmes”

….all kudos to you...as usual, you’ve put sherlock to shame..:)

http://salon.com/news/wire/2001/11/12/un_execution/index.html

U.N. reports executions in Mazar-e-Sharif

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By Amir Zia

Nov. 12, 2001 | ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) --

There have been reports of summary executions and abductions of civilians in Mazar-e-Sharif since opposition fighters seized the northern city from the Taliban, U.N. officials said Monday.

The officials said there was no confirmation of the reports and they had no details. It was not known whether the violence involved opposition fighters taking revenge against lingering Taliban or pro-Taliban residents, or involved personal disputes.

Print story E-mail story

U.N. officials also said an opposition commander had seized a U.N. convoy of 10 trucks carrying aid to the area and that a U.N. food warehouse in the city had been looted -- though it was not known whether by the opposition or fleeing Taliban fighters.

Lindsey Davies, spokeswoman for the U.N. World Food Program, said the situation in Mazar-e-Sharif ``remains volatile, with reports of looting, abduction of civilians from the city, uncontrolled free-lance gunmen, and some street battles are ongoing.``

U.N. spokeswoman Stephanie Bunker -- who like Davies spoke in the Pakistani capital, Islamabad -- said ``unconfirmed reports speak of incidents including violence and summary executions`` in Mazar-e-Sharif.

After they took Mazar-e-Sharif on Friday, one opposition commander reportedly ordered his forces to restrain themselves and offered an amnesty to Taliban supporters in the city. But several factions of the alliance, which is loosely made up of rival warlords who have opposed in the past, were involved in the city`s capture.

Mazar-e-Sharif changed hands several times between the Taliban and opposition in 1997 and 1998, and each time there were bloody massacres allegedly committed by the victors.

Meanwhile, the U.N. Children`s Fund said a 10-truck convoy was commandeered by opposition fighters soon after it arrived in Mazar-e-Sharif on Saturday with 200 tons of supplies. UNICEF said in a statement from Geneva that it was trying to ``ensure the safety`` of the convoy`s Afghan drivers and the supplies.

Davies, of the WFP, said about 89 tons of food -- including sugar, oil and high energy biscuits -- had ``disappeared from our warehouse`` in Kabul.

UNICEF said its offices in the city had been stripped of their contents, including computers and furniture.

UNICEF and the WFP said they didn`t know who was behind the looting of their facilities. But UNICEF said fleeing Taliban forces had made off with all its vehicles and communications equipment.

The northern alliance seized Mazar-e-Sharif on Friday, forcing Taliban soldiers to retreat south toward Kabul -- though over the weekend U.S. officials said there were still pockets of Taliban resistance in the city.

The capture of strategic northern city opened up a corridor for badly needed humanitarian aid from neighboring Uzbekistan. But relief officials are waiting to ship aid until they confirm that the area is secure.

The WFP hopes to bring 17,000 tons of food a month into Afghanistan from Uzbekistan. ``We have food, staff and offices to help the impoverished Afghans of the northern areas. What we need is security,`` said Davies.

The United Nations says Afghanistan is in the middle of a humanitarian crisis because of a devastating drought and a protracted civil war.

The opposition has pushed the Taliban out of most of northern Afghanistan in the past few days with the help of heavy U.S. bombing, and has threatened to launch an offensive on Kabul.

Associated Press

Layman

#359

``and Pakistan is not Bastardized ``

I can speak of Muslims of Indian subcontinent they are not

I have arguments but for the moment i exert my PERSONAL opinion as defense for thinking so

No matter what non muslims of India think,Islam is never BOUGHT like christianity.

by that i mean no muslim pays like christian to become muslim

#371 SHANKAR

#372 ``

IGNORE IT

Certain pl. on Chowk Neptune & others caused missunderstanding

I can understand the Afghans hating the Taliban, but hating Pakistan? The same country that has provided refuge to millions of Afghans? The same country that `saved` the Afghans from the Soviets?

What lessons can Pakistan learn from all this, even as it tries to `save` Kashmiris from other Indians?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1653000/1653137.stm

Kabul celebrates `liberation`

Excerpt:

The BBC`s John Simpson, who entered the Afghan capital on foot ahead of Northern Alliance forces, says huge crowds gathered in the city shouting ``death to Pakistan`` and ``death to the Taleban``.

ylh #349:

``As for people not agreeing with me... maybe you will shed some light on why you responded to my argument which was backed up documents and legal evidence.... by saying `fcuk off kid`... Is that the lesson you telling me to learn?``

Touche.

Fatimah #359:

``I considered Phillipines a bastardized nation ,by Spanish ,Americans marauders.So far Pakistan thanks to Islam is better than many such nations.``

And Pakistan is not a bastardized nation, by Islamic invaders? I`m sure Filipinos will have something to say about it - So far Phillipines thanks to Christianity is better than many such nations. (to paraphrase you).

Bijli,

Ramayan & Mahabharat, as far as I`m concerned are MYTHOLOGIES. It means ``myths``--ya idiot! The great thing about hinduism is your are free to believe what you want & discard what you dont. The beauty is in the symbolism of these myths & the philosophy that goes along with them.

All ancient polytheistic religions had mythologies. They add color & spice to our culture. Who cares whether they are true or not.

Not to worry--we dont want to enter your jannah--sounds like a very boring place to us godless idolators. Esp when your ``other head`` studebaker was kind enough to reveal the fine print-- that you are not allowed to lust after the houris.

Wow! that gives a whole new meaning to the phrase KLPD!

British reporter Mrs. Lamb was unceremoniously kicked out of Pakistan at the dead of the night because she found out some evidence of continuing collusion between Pakistan army and the Talibani crminals -- surprise! surpurise!!

````This begs the question `Is he (Mushraaf) really in control of the military intelligence and who is actually running the country?``` (British reporter Ms Lamb quoted by tvrad)

Good question, Ms Lamb. When you find the answer tell us on Chowk.

We have asked the same qestion -- quite a few times -- post Spetember 11 -- post October 1

It looks like Mr. Musharraf may have had some control when he was in Khaki -- but not any more in his Shirwani -- or it could be a forked tongue diasease -- or something like -- hunting with the hounds and running with the hares -- or eating the cake and having it too -- etc, etc.

More likely Gul`s ISI is still Gul`s ISI -- NOT Mr. Secular Mushrraf`s.

Reply #: 341

shankar

. When your ancestor was converted to Islam, you came back--with 2 extra heads!

In hindu mythology, if Ravana`s head was chopped off, another head would replace it. Perhaps, you could do us all a favor & just come up with just one Chowkie pseudonym--Ravan (new, improved version of the Islamic kind).



Fake Doc.

When your friends & clients know of your hallucinatory believes of demons & dungeons ,they wont come to you & request for michigan board to redress you first .12 head ravan believes

Fatimah:

`Nothing ,i do here is for anything BUT for Islam & Pakistan.If you think Iam harming Pakistan or Islam i wont post anything.`

Yes I do think you are harming Pakistan and Islam. Please stick to your word now!

-YLH

No it is me .. Yasser Hamdani.

Dost Mittar,

Thanks for your last post; you are right.

Btw, Sadna, and DM, have you seen the Sunday Times` Week in Review Section? An op-ed piece on al-J and US media censorship from a Harvard Journalism School bigwig...thought he made some nice points...unfortunatly, many Americans I speak to think al-J should be shut down...says something, doesn`t it?

regards

Neptune,

{{Ahah! So I did manage to convince you that time}}

No s *it; Sherlock!:) Youre da man...

Rgds

Dr Watson

...& not a single one of those heads has a brain in it!!:)

Pakistani two-timing at it`s finest:

BBC Website, South Asia News

Monday, 12 November, 2001, 19:22 GMT

Deported journalist `uncovered collusion`



Justin Sutcliffe and Christina Lamb fly home after their ordeal

A British journalist who was deported from Pakistan at the weekend says she believes the action may have been triggered by her discovery of collusion between some Pakistani army officers and the Taleban.

Sunday Telegraph reporter Christina Lamb said authorities which deported her gave no explanation and detained her for 18 hours without food.

She told BBC News Online she was kept in the dark about why she and photographer Justin Sutcliffe were sent home from Islamabad on Saturday.

It`s a matter of huge concern that a country we are in alliance with in fighting for freedom, is treating people in such a barbaric manner



Christina Lamb

Journalist

The pair had been detained by Pakistani authorities since the early hours on Friday in the border city of Quetta.

Ms Lamb, 35, said they were woken in their hotel in the middle of the night by five members of the military intelligence and two police officers.

`Not allowed to sleep or eat`

She said they were driven to a railway rest room and then flown to Islamabad, but not allowed to sleep, eat or make contact with Britain until they were sent home the next day.

Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has expressed concern about the deportation and plans to stay in contact with Ms Lamb about any further representations to Pakistan.

Ms Lamb said she had uncovered evidence of a covert operation by rogue elements in the Pakistani military intelligence service to smuggle arms to the Taleban.

But the deportation order vaguely described the reason as ``acting in a manner prejudicial to the external affairs and security of Pakistan``.

Ms Lamb said: ``It`s a matter of huge concern that a country we are in alliance with in fighting for freedom, is treating people in such a barbaric manner.

``To deport people without giving them any chance to answer any charge that they are supposed to have done is incredibly frustrating.``

Miss Lamb denies booking a ticket in Bin Laden`s name



The Sunday Telegraph is planning legal action against Pakistani newspapers that recently claimed the pair had booked an airline ticket from Quetta in the name of Osama Bin Laden.

Ms Lamb, who has a two-year-old son called Lorenzo, said that was not true and related to a throwaway remark she made to a travel agent who said she could book a flight under a false name.

She said she thought the airline ticket stories, which accused her of trying to prove Bin Laden was in Pakistan, were the pretext for the deportation.

Her son and husband in Portugal were worried about her safety after they were told by the hotel she had checked out in the middle of the night.

`I felt like a criminal`

Ms Lamb, who has been reporting in Pakistan since 1987, said her detention was very frightening and made her feel like a criminal.

She said she thought it was probably the result of her investigations into the allegedly pro-Taleban actions of the Pakistani military intelligence.

Ms Lamb told BBC News Online: ``Even the spokesman for President Musharraf was shocked to hear about our experience and other senior government officials knew nothing about it.

``This begs the question `Is he really in control of the military intelligence and who is actually running the country?```

Sunday Telegraph editor Dominic Lawson said: ``We have been given no reason for the deportations beyond the vaguest generalities.

Christina was simply carrying out her duties as a journalist



Dominic Lawson,

Sunday Telegraph editor

``Christina was simply carrying out her duties as a journalist.``

Labour rebel MP Paul Marsden was on a fact-finding mission in Pakistan when Miss Lamb was detained.

She said he helped to raise the alarm about her plight and helped secure her freedom.

Ms Lamb said she wanted to return to Pakistan to continue her work as soon as possible.

Re: bijli

``IS THERE ANY HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ,BIOLOGICALLY OR ARTEFACT WISE -GOD DAMMIT WE HAVE FOUND PRE HUMAN DINOSEUERS WHY NOT A SINGLE ARTEFACT OF RAMAYAN OR MAHABHARAT???-SO MYTHOLOGICAL STORIES ARE CALLED FICTION AND ITS BEST WRITER IS ONE RUSHDIE.AND IMAGINE YOU SILLY PEOPLE HANGING ON TO MYTHOLOGICAL FICTION FROM SOMEONE LIKE RUSHDIE ,STARTING THE WHOLE RELIGION.& GULLIBLE INDU STICKING TO 12 HEAD OR 16 ARMS BIO EXISISTENCE NEVER PROVED BIOLOGICALLY POSSIBLE.``

And you do have ``biological proof`` of 72 virgins waiting for good Muslim men in heaven. And you have a DNA sample of Allah which you have been working on sequencing.

Layman

And one last note if you couldnt read my long email... it is easy to make such statments.. it is not your religion being hijacked by fools like Fatimah.. it is not your country which is being maligned by a handful of fanatics...

-YLH

There is no defending the indefensible:

This is what Layman was trying to defend

Fatimah Says about Maleeha Lodhi:

`She looks like a DALIT converted to islam .I dont know her hx but she is no way an attractive figure .Go ask around.`

Does it matter? Arent Dalits human beings? What is so amazing about that.... You probably have an American passport... Why dont you stop making judgements about Pakistan huh... It is not your country...

If a Pakistani American wants to have anything to do with Pakistan... he/she has to declare the following:

`I hereby solemnly swear that I place the interests of Pakistan before the `perceived` Interests of Islam, and that I realize that I have been led astray by the Islamic scholars in the North American Mosques which are bastions of Bigotry and not Islam.`

Pakistaniness is not the Hijab. Hijab can never be a Pakistani thing... Hijab is an ugly stupid cloth that should be abandoned...

for your information you idiotic Muslim American... We are proud of the fact that Pakistani culture is a unique mix of various cultures including Indian, Iranian, Afghan, and Central Asian and British... and now Pakistani culture is the Global culture... Pakistan should become committed to one world!

If it is the TNT you base Pakistan on, then remember the defining point of Pakistan remains its South Asian heritage... it was the South Asian Muslims who according to the TNT constituted a nation not and I repeat NOT the entire Islamic Ummah... TNT is very specific about that.. TNT is not concerned with whether you believe in God or not..it is concerned with an indigenous ...

On another place you said.. Jinnah didnot make Pakistan... that is a stupid statement... but let us assume that is true... is it Iqbal who is the father of the Pakistan idea... if so... then read his address to Allahabad Muslim league in 1930 .. he speaks of only South Asian Muslims... Muslims of India.. he doesnot ... and I repeat doesnot speak of the Ummah when he defines the TNT.

And you daddyos... the Maudoodis, the Jamaat e Islami wallahs, the Deobandis.. all of them opposed the creation of Pakistan.. why dont you stick with that and grow up?

-YLH

Layman

`Ylh, you come across as an emotional, if sometimes misinformed / confused young man. If you ever hope to become a leader, you need to communicate with dignity, not rant and rave like a street-corner neta. I also notice that you are not able to handle well people who disagree with your (passionately held) views. This is as sincere a feedback as I can give to someone of your country.`

With all due respect I dont need your sincere feedbacks... I usually open to criticism, as many know, but I know you too well to believe anything to be sincere ... because you know what... we are damned if we do... we are damned if we dont... Your country has a double edged policy ... Pakistani leadership is guilty of chamberlainism.. we are guilty of chamberlainism when dealing with fanatics and bigots, who despite being a small minority end up ruining Pakistan ... for three years I have tolerated in vain the absolute nonsense that Pakistani Americans spout out in ignorance.

As for people not agreeing with me... maybe you will shed some light on why you responded to my argument which was backed up documents and legal evidence.... by saying `fcuk off kid`... Is that the lesson you telling me to learn?

Should I handle people who disagree with me by telling them to `fcuk off` ... huh layman? Are you just talking the talk? can you walk the walk?

I am sorry but this is the problem with you Indians... you are all over the place with your `sincere` advice ... but the problem is that most of ya`all dont follow your own advice... neither nationally nor individually.

I have been more than open to criticism, advice and constructive feedback... Shammi, Stuka, Egalitarian Brahmin, all of them know... I appreciate all truly `sincere` pieces of advice.. but allow me to say neither is your advice sincere nor is it productive... it is a continuation of `fault finding`....

You people dont want people like me screaming our heads off... You dont want us to rip off the Hijabs of these people... because you want to see Muslims backwards ... You want to see our women dressed up in Burkahs... You know why? It gives your pathetic existences a chance to feel happy about... and gives you a chance to criticize us..

I will scream out... I will denounce the Mullahs.. I will destroy the fanatics... there.. I dont want to be the Prime Minister if it means making compromises... I dont want to be leader if it means making bargains or aligning myself with fundoos... I am no `Congress Party` politician ! I am no `Gandhi` who would support the Khilafat Movement for his reasons ... I am no Azad who will team up with the deobandi fundamentalists...

I am quite content in the `street shouting` neta role... I will be even more content with a role as a social commentator... I would rather follow the footsteps of Ardeshir Cowassjee or Salman Rushdie than be a Nawaz Sharif or a Benazir or an Imran Khan ...

I WILL SPEAK MY MIND. and that is what chaps like you are scared off..

-YLH

fatimah .. has it occured to that we might wanna be like Phillipines and the rest of Humanity?

Shankar #341

Re: the hydra-headed retard

[EVERYBODY knows you come to Chowk with several identities...]

Ahah! So I did manage to convince you that time!

Best regards

Mycroft Holmes

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/national/12STUD.html


In Sweeping Campus Canvasses, U.S. Checks on Mideast Students

By JACQUES STEINBERG

In the two months since the attacks of Sept. 11, federal investigators have contacted administrators on more than 200 college campuses to collect information about students from Middle Eastern countries, the most sweeping canvass of the halls of academia since the cold war, the colleges say.

The agents have asked what subjects the students are studying, whether they are performing well and where they are living.

They have also questioned the students themselves, asking about their views on Osama bin Laden, the names of their favorite restaurants and their plans for after graduation.

The investigations have put the universities in a difficult position, pitting the government`s interest in security against the institutions` desire to protect students` privacy and to avoid engaging in racial profiling.

But in the end, a national survey of college registrars found, nearly all the universities approached have readily supplied answers to the government`s questions, largely because the law appears to be on the government`s side.

The agents, from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Immigration and Naturalization Service, have used those conversations as the basis for interviewing dozens of students.

One Saudi Arabian student, who attends the University of Colorado at Denver, said federal investigators closed their interview with him by saying, ``Expect to see us again.``

The college officials who have been sought out - including those at Columbia University, Tufts University and San Diego State University - said that the often unannounced visits and the urgent lines of inquiry were throwbacks to a decade or more ago, when it was not uncommon for a federal agent to ask a dean a question like ``Did Vladimir show up at the lab today?``

Larry Bell, director of international education at the University of Colorado in Denver, said that federal agents had visited his office or the registrar`s office five times in recent weeks.

Mr. Bell said that the agents had interviewed at least 50 students from Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and other Arab countries. He said he did not believe any had been arrested or linked to a terrorist cell.

``The students are not sure what the purpose of the questions are,`` Mr. Bell said. ``But they know that the government isn`t interviewing any students from Germany.``

Mindful that a terrorist with a student visa participated in the Sept. 11 attacks, the federal agencies said they were seeking to mine further leads and to begin making good on the president`s promise to ensure that the half-million foreign students studying here were accounted for on their campuses.

``One of the reasons they want to know where a student lives is so that they can come find them when necessary or simply watch them,`` said Catheryn Cotten, director of the international student office at Duke University, who has yet to receive such a visit but has been in contact with many colleges that have. ``It`s not that they want to arrest the students. They want to keep track of them coming and going.``

Still, the sudden appearance of agents in college buildings and the government`s plans to expand such surveillance have heightened the anxiety on campuses already jittery because of the terrorist attacks and the anthrax scares.

``It`s just very hard to squeal on your own students,`` said James O. Freedman, a former president of Dartmouth College. ``You don`t want students to get the perception that you are in league with those who may be out to get them.``

The Saudi student in Colorado, who asked not to be identified, said that two agents from the F.B.I. and another from the I.N.S. arrived at his apartment unannounced on a Wednesday evening about a month ago.

The agents said they had gotten his name from two other Saudi students who had been briefly detained after they had been observed taking photographs of the university`s sports arena. The photographs were for a photography class, Mr. Bell said.

In his interview with the authorities, the student, a 26-year-old landscape architecture major, said he was asked about his classes, activities and politics. ``I was afraid,`` he said. ``I know they can do anything they want to you.``

Still, he understood the situation. ``I don`t blame them,`` he said. ``Thousands of innocent people were killed in a few seconds and a few hours.``

In a survey by the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers, 220 colleges reported that they had been contacted at least once by the F.B.I. or the I.N.S. after Sept. 11 about the status of foreign students. Nearly a quarter of those institutions reported multiple contacts.

A federal immigration official, who insisted on anonymity, said that the colleges had been identified in the belief that foreign students there might have information that would assist the government`s inquiry.

``These visits are a component of an ongoing criminal investigation,`` the official said.

Under federal immigration law, the government is entitled to much of the information it has sought. As a condition of most education visas, a foreign student signs a waiver permitting a college to let immigration officials know when the student arrived on campus, how many credits the student had earned and whether the student`s field of study or mailing address had changed.

Though college administrators are required to collect such information, they said that the government asked them to stop sending it to Washington years ago, in part because the I.N.S. could not scale the mountain of paperwork.

But in the weeks since Sept. 11, federal officials have been aggressively gathering such records and more. The colleges comply for financial and legal reasons. By alienating the government, a school could risk losing its authority to request visas for foreign students, most of whom pay full tuition.

There is a long tradition of law enforcement watching over college campuses in times of crisis. But Sol Gittleman, provost of Tufts University and a professor there for nearly 40 years, said he could not recall when outside agencies had descended on so many campuses so quickly. ``Unprecedented,`` Mr. Gittleman said. ``We`ve never had a national emergency like this.``

The scrutiny of students of Arab descent has so far touched off little protest, a stark contrast to the outrage when American-born students have been profiled by university or law enforcement officials. In 1992, the campus of the State University of New York College at Oneonta was riven for weeks after the college provided the state police with a list of every black and Hispanic student in an investigation of an assault on an elderly woman.

In the current investigation, federal agents have contacted Columbia University two or three times and interviewed at least one foreign student, said Virgil Renzulli, a spokesman for the school. Mr. Renzulli said he did not believe that the student was arrested.

At San Diego State University, the government has sought information about many of the 60 students from the Middle East because, university officials said, two of the hijackers lived in San Diego and had ties to the Muslim community.

University officials said that the authorities later arrested one San Diego State student and transported him to New York, where he was being held as a material witness.

But the investigation on the San Diego campus continues. On Wednesday, immigration officials delivered a written request to the university seeking information about the locations and studies of 40 students from Arab nations, a request that the university intends to honor.

``It`s upsetting,`` said Jane Kalionzes, associate director of the international student center. ``Even though we`ve always known that reporting is a part of our job, we haven`t done it in so long.``

Ylh #330:

``Bigoted fanatical fools ... I hate you all! Die all of you Die!``

And you hope to become the Prime Minister of your country!

Ylh, you come across as an emotional, if sometimes misinformed / confused young man. If you ever hope to become a leader, you need to communicate with dignity, not rant and rave like a street-corner neta. I also notice that you are not able to handle well people who disagree with your (passionately held) views.

This is as sincere a feedback as I can give to someone of your country.

sadna,

{{I think 15-head claimed to be a psychiatrist some time ago}}

Whoah! thats blasphemy!

12 headed hypocrite,

{{She looks like a DALIT converted to islam .I dont know her hx but she is no way an attractive figure .Go ask around.}}

HA HA!

So much for the EGALITARIAN character of Islam! Typical--the guys who thump Islam on their chest are the ones who spit on the face of the Prophet(pbuh).

I got news for you, pal--in your previous life you were the 10 headed Ravana. When your ancestor was converted to Islam, you came back--with 2 extra heads!

EVERYBODY knows you come to Chowk with several identities. Yet you have no shame! You continue to persist & I`m afraid we cant get rid of any of your personalities because you will just pop up with another personality.

In hindu mythology, if Ravana`s head was chopped off, another head would replace it. Perhaps, you could do us all a favor & just come up with just one Chowkie pseudonym--Ravan (new, improved version of the Islamic kind).

Rsaxena,

{{He winks at girls, you wink at boys. What`s the difference?}}

My friend, if you dont know the difference, you`d better see a shrink. Ofcourse a real shrink--not a quack like me...

saminashah #333
I think 15-head claimed to be a psychiatrist some time ago. My opinion of the health system is now in the Mariana trench somewhere. `course, even `homes` must be wired now :)

#330

YLH

Once again, I am sorry to say but I have no faith in Democracy

You just lectured me on democracy when i argued for indegenous modification of western ideology.

How manytimes you change within a day

If you leave the islamic character of Pakistan how will you be different than Phillipines.??

ylh

You might want to qualify your statements a bit more carefully. Not all Pakistani-Americans can be lumped into one generalization. In fact,I would avoid making those as well.

The Pakistani-Americans of my parents generation, family and social groups tend to be quite moderate. They tend to organize on professional and cultural lines. Both my parents belong to a doctors organization, as do my aunties and uncles. My father used to organize qawwalis and mushairas for poets and musical artist from the subcontinent. I have an uncle who was one of the first Pakistani Americans to run for local government. They are les interested in trifling matters as you had pointed out, than in providing an educated, moderate viewpoint. But then, perhaps you were being satirical.

12 head

Have you noticed similarites between your behavior, posts, and the profile of the anthrax loner? I don`t think he`s too concerned about his popularity index, either...

Anyway, if you need legal defense, I can give you the number of my cousin who has been practicing law for several years. However, if she decides to pass your case up, and you need psychiatric help, I have an aunt and a cousin who could help you. They are both women and are well read up on mcps. Then again, if you need a job, perhaps my mother might be able to help you out; you see, she`s the Director of a federal govt. lab, not an employee. But you probably wouldn`t get the job; she has less tolerance for male chauvinists than I. If you do eventually get sued for online harrassment, I have a cousin who could do a documentary on you...in this case a ``he``, but his speciality is horror films, so I think it`d be quite appropo.

McGupta # 325,

Why are your reports and quotes anonymous most of the time?

[Quoting an American scholar of India]

Scholar! who? Arun ``Ron`` McBania?

[``For example, I was told by a leading professor of ``South Asian Studies`` at a major American University``]

Leading professor! who? Harsha ``Hersh`` Mclingum? major American University! which? Vijaywada Univ. of Astrology and Lingum Sciences?

[Amazing isn`t it?]

Amazing my arse. The only thing amazing is your ability to concoct false quotes.

By the way another thing, and this addressed WRT an earlier discussion we had on Education in Pakistan...

The national education document that everyone keeps harping about was NEVER ratified ... or placed as an official document...



Sajida Qureshi brings up these two points:

1) That this document has still not completed

its official protocols to be passed as a National Document for standards of a core curriculum; it is circulating as de facto but nevertheless restricted `private` document.

2) How can a document which has not met with formal scrutiny be seen amended or sections deleted when there is no formal premise for its use? This can be taken up by the Working Committee that is being set up for the Curriculum Reform of all subjects from Class I to XII as also requested by the chief executive.



The document that Hoodbhoy mentions is horrendous, but it is not a publicly enforced according to the otherside of the story... and knowing that Hoodbhoy great as he is suffers from `I-want-to-show-I-am-an-intellectual-too` syndrome ... I would rather take Sajida Qureshi`s word on this one.

-YLH

Grow up Fatimah... We have had enough of American Muslims, and Pakistani Americans already...

What is a Modern woman doing wearing a piece of ugly cloth on her head anyway... whatever her religion! Why are you people still living in the middle ages...

The Pakistani Americans are worse than the ignorant masses of Pakistan.... the ignorant masses of Pakistan dont have a choice but to be ignorant... Pakistani Americans are ignorant by choice ... Bigoted fanatical fools ... I hate you all! Die all of you Die!

A case in point: Pakistani Americans appealed to Karl Inderfurth of the Clinton Administration to stop Maleeha Lodhi`s appointment ... Reason? She is a chain smoker. Idiots,the founder of Pakistan was a chain smoker too, he died of lung cancer ...

Maleeha Lodhi is scary for Pakistani Americans... she breaks their outmoded notions of submissive pious Hijabi Muslim Pakistani woman that they want to instill in their young daughters ...

Bigoted Muslims of North America can go to hell!

-YLH

When I had heard of the Pro-Government faction of the Muslim League (Quaid-e-Azam Group) I had been falsely led into believing that this might be the resuscitation of the Old league... which died with

Jinnah`s resignation on 17th December 1947 ... but I was so mistaken... Muslim League (Quaid-e-Azam) group is made up of thugs and idiots like Ch. Shujaat Hussain, and Ejaz-ul-Haq, son of Zia ul Haq and grandson of one of the most famous leaders of Majlis e Ahrar... the rabidly anti-League and anti-Jinnah party...

Once again, I am sorry to say but I have no faith in Democracy anymore as long as thugs like Ejaz ul Haq and Ch. Shujaat Hussain are let loose... they have no vision, no identity, no future... they are selfish hereditary politicians who have now abandoned their exiled Sugar Daddy Nawaz Sharif..

I hope Musharraf tightens the noose .... and continues this `technocrat` government... which is the best way out of this mess...

-YLH

Faiza/12 Head uloo sahib

You are such a sad little case study that you didn`t understand my post fully...but as usual that didn`t stop you from blabbering about what you don`t know...

Sad little oinker, not only do the men in my immediate and extended family hold doctorates in science, medicine and engineering, but also in art, literature and enviromental policy. THAT INCLUDES ALL THE WOMEN. Ironic, isn`t it? You assumed that only the men had degrees...well to take a line from your standard line of logic, that only men acheive professional excellence. Be careful, 12 head. To take a line of logic you seem to screech at every juncture, ``when you assume something, u make an ass of u`` and YOU, in your particular case. My mother, aunt, sister,and cousins have more worth and intelligence in a strand of their hair than you do in your entire ignorant body. I have been brought up to take no bathimeezi from anyone, which is why I find you to be such a profound piece of waste. I will be enrolled in a doctorate program next year, but why bother with a stooge who can`t read the articles he posts?

Isn`t it time you learned to shut up?

Fatimah # 323

You are deploying shallow strawman arguments. The ``Western Civilizaition`` is not all decadence, nor ``Islamic civilization`` all paragon of virtue; and neither is the case vice-versa. Open your eyes, look around, and use your brains to be a better human being rather than delighting in being a pitiful, nonsense-spitting robot.

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Quoting an American scholar of India :

``For example, I was told by a leading professor of ``South Asian Studies`` at a major American University that I should ``never ever report anything positive about the BJP or Sangh Parivar``. If I did, he warned, I would ``never find a job in American academia.``

In another example, a colleague of mine submitted her manuscript for publication to Oxford University Press, Delhi, and the then editor of OUP informed her that it was a good manuscript but since it had passages that reflected positively on the Sangh Parivar they would not publish it. The editor said if she wanted to remove the passages that considered the Hindu Mahasabha and the BJP favorably, then OUP would consider publishing her book -- otherwise, it was against their policy. Amazing isn`t it?``

Different people, different crusades or jihads.

-Arun Gupta

Re Pakistani military dictator Musharraf`s speech about unresolved political disputes and frustration.

Its like an emperor with new clothes talking of new clothes. Its clear to all except pro-Army Pakistanis, which party has been the primary frustrated party for decades : namely the Pakistani Army. Pakistani Army top brass have been the primary frustrated party whether within Pakistan, in E Pakistan, in Afghanistan or in Kashmir. The Pakistani Army top brass have consistently resisted solutions except on their own terms and have shown they can go to any lengths to do so.

Two opposite types of people have been unfair to women:

1. The Westernized type who want to impose Western traditions, which include decadence and lack of values - especially religious, and deviation from normal nature. In addition to staying away from the rightly guided path, that Allah has sent prophets and holy books to show to the people and call them to abide by.

They want the Muslim woman to follow the habits of Western women, inch by inch and foot by foot as was visualized in the hadith of the prophet: ``Even if she enters the lizard`s hole she follows her even it was twisted and narrow and smelled bad.`` Nevertheless, if the Western woman enters it, the Muslim woman follows suit. Or in other word, a new kind of amicability that some tried to propagate that was known as ``Amicability of the lizard`s hole``.

Those people are not aware of what the Western woman complains of today and the negative repercussions that the `open` mixing of sexes has brought upon her, upon men, the family and the whole society. They shut their ears to the screams of dissatisfaction that filled the horizons of the Western world, as well as the screams of the scientists and literary men, and the fears of intellectuals and the reformists of the whole civilization that was affected as a result of canceling all restrictions on the mixing of sexes.

Those people also forget that every nation has its personality that is formed by its beliefs and visualized it to the universe, life, existence and the God of existence, as well as its values, heritage and customs. It is not right for a society to copy another one.



2. The second half are those who force other traditions on women but they are the traditions of the East not the West. Those traditions are given a religious color. Those people who made those claims made them from their sides; based on something that they understood, or a view that they initiated or preferred because it suits their view on women and their disrespect for her, her religion, her brains or her behavior.

Nevertheless, it is no more than the viewpoint of a human who can make mistakes due to the effect of time or place on him, the effect of his sheikhs and his school. He is opposed by other views that basing their opinions on what is Sahiih in the Glorious Quran, and in the wisdom of the Noble prophet and the stands of the companions.

I would like to state that the word `mixing` in the area of the relationship between men and women is a new word that has entered into our Muslim dictionary. It was never known to our long heritage for the past centuries, and was not known except in this period. Perhaps it was a translation of a `foreign` word that carries this meaning. Its implication is not a comfortable one to the senses of a Muslim person.

It would have been better to use the words meeting, gathering, or women`s participation with men or something .....

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Text of the General`s speech in the UN.

Mr. President

Mr. Secretary General

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to extend to you, Mr. President, my felicitations on your election. I also wish to congratulate your predecessor Mr. Harri Holkeri for his stewardship of the

millennium session of the General Assembly. Deep appreciation is also due to the Secretary General, Mr. Kofi Annan for his untiring efforts to translate the vision of

the Millennium Declaration into policies and actions by the World Community.

Mr. Secretary General, please also accept my heartiest congratulations on the award of the centenary Nobel Peace Prize conferred upon you and your organization

and your election for a second term to your prestigious office.

Last year, at the Millennium Summit, all of us were looking forward to a renaissance in the new Millennium. A renaissance in the hearts and minds of people, for a

better world where peace and justice would prevail. Unfortunately, today we gather against the somber backdrop of the terrorist outrage that the world witnessed in

shock and horror on that fateful day of l l September. In seconds images of fire and death reached all of us. Thousands of innocent lives were lost in minutes. Eighty

nations lost some of their brightest and their best. Pakistan, like the rest of the world mourned the colossal loss of innocent lives. The map of the world changed and the

entire globe descended into a deep crisis. At a time of such great turmoil when there is indeed a need for clear thought and firm action, I come from Pakistan with a

message of determination and resolve as well as a message of peace for all peoples.

The General Assembly this year meets under the shadow of a horrendous act of terror perpetrated against the people of the United States, an act for which no

grievance or cause can ever be a justification, an act that must be condemned unambiguously and in the strongest words. This was an attack on humanity itself, and

we all must therefore, unite to fight this scourge.

Mr. President,

Now that the world has bonded itself to fight against terrorism, it is time for introspection. We owe it to posterity that in this dark hour we shed light on some dangerous

and growing trends, misconceptions and misperceptions which, if not cleared, may lead the world into even greater disorder and disharmony.

The religion of Islam, and Muslims in various parts of the world, are being held responsible for the trials the world is facing. This point of view is totally misplaced. Just

as all religions teach peace and love for fellow beings, so does Islam place upon its adherents the obligation to do good, to be generous, merciful, kind and just to fellow

beings. The Muslim greeting Assalam-o-Allaikm meaning ``Peace be upon you`` symbolizes the very essence of Islamic faith. Islam is a religion of peace, of

compassion and of tolerance.

Terrorism is not a Christian, Buddhist, Jewish or a Muslim belief. It is to be condemned no matter who the perpetrator, be it an individual, a group or a state.

We need to ask ourselves what really causes these extreme acts around the world. To my mind it is the unresolved political disputes the world over: disputes in Bosnia,

Kosovo, Palestine, Kashmir and other places. Unfortunately all these disputes involve Muslims, and more sadly the Muslims happen to be the victims in all which tends

to give a religious tinge to these otherwise political disputes. The lack of progress in resolution of these disputes has created in them a sense of deprivation,

hopelessness and powerlessness. The frustration gets even worse when such disputes like Kashmir and Palestine remain unsettled for decades despite the United

Nations Security Council Resolutions. The question then is, whether it is the people asking for their rights in accordance with UN resolutions who are to be called

terrorists or whether it is the countries refusing to implement the UN resolutions who are perpetrators of state terrorism. In Kashmir, Indian occupation forces have

killed over 75,000 Kashmiris attributing these killings to foreign terrorists. It is time India must stop such deceit. UN Security Council Resolutions on Kashmir must be

implemented.

Media images of the Palestinian child Muhammad Al Durrah were etched on the hearts and minds of people all over the world. It is perverse to regard the rape of

Kashmiri women as a punishment inflicted in the course of war. The images of that moment when the World Trade Centre Tower came down will remain definitive

for all the agony, disbelief and loss that people suffer from acts of terror all over the world. All forms of terror must be condemned, prevented and fought against, but

in so doing the world must not trample upon the genuine rights, aspirations and urges of the people who are fighting for their liberation and are subjected to state

terrorism.

To fight the extremist, deprive him of his motivation. The extremist survives in an environment where millions suffer injustice and indignity. Deprive him of his support

by giving the world peace, security, justice and dignity for all peoples regardless of faith, religion or creed.

A just and honourable solution for the people of Kashmir, an end to the miseries of the people of Palestine are the major burning issues that have to be addressed

vigorously, boldly, imaginatively and urgently. Unless we go to the root causes, cosmetics will only make matters worse. Consider the analogy of a tree. Terrorists are

like so many leaves, you take out some, there will be plenty more and an unending growth. Terrorist networks are branches, you prune a few and there will be others

and more growth. The only way to go, is to go for the roots. Eliminate the roots and there will be no tree. The roots, Mr. President, are the causes, which need to be

addressed, tackled and eliminated, fairly, justly and honourably. Give people back their dignity, their self-respect, their honour.

In essence, therefore, to tackle the issue of terrorism in its entirety, we need to follow a three-pronged strategy of going for individual terrorists, moving against terrorist

organizations and addressing disputes around the world in a just manner.

After the events of l1th September, Pakistan took a deliberate principled decision to join the World Coalition in its fight against terrorism. This decision has catapulted

us, once again, as a front line state in the battle against terrorism. While the people of Pakistan have accepted this new reality, they still suffer from a sense of betrayal

and abandonment, when, they were left in the lurch in 1989 after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. Then also, we were a front line state and what we got in

return was three million refugees, a shattered economy, drugs and Kalashnikov culture, to be faced single handedly through our limited resources. Pakistan only hopes

that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated and Pakistan`s legitimate concerns will be addressed. Our economy again faces a crisis of a fall out of the operations

in Afghanistan. We need financial and commercial support on an urgent basis and hope that this will be forthcoming.

Mr. President,

After 11 September Pakistan had been trying its utmost with the Afghan government ever since Osama Bin Laden and AI-Qaeda became an international issue, till

the last moment, to avert military action in Afghanistan. Regrettably, we did not meet with success and the coalition operation against terrorists in Afghanistan

continues with no immediate end in sight. Sadly enough, the civilian casualties in this action are getting projected more as an open war against the already poor,

suffering and innocent people of Afghanistan. The World in general and Pakistan in particular mourns the loss of these innocent lives and sympathizes with the

bereaved. It is desirable that the military operation be as short and accurately targeted as possible. It is also essential that a fall back political strategy be evolved which

could attain the same objective as being sought through military application.

In its entirety dealing with Afghanistan, involves a three pronged strategy - the Military, Political and Humanitarian cum Rehabilitation Strategies. It must remain the

effort of the coalition to prevent a vacuum, leading to anarchy, after achieving military objectives, through immediate application of political and rehabilitation strategies.

In our view, the political set up in Afghanistan must be homegrown and not imposed, ensuring the unity and territorial integrity of Afghanistan, with a broad based,

multi-ethnic dispensation, representative of the demographic composition of the country.

The people of Afghanistan have been suffering the ravages and devastation of conflicts for over two decades. It is the moral obligation of the World Community to

support them generously. Assistance to Afghanistan should be in two forms. Firstly, the ongoing humanitarian assistance and secondly, the post-military operations,

rehabilitation and reconstruction.

To offset the ill effects of the ongoing military operation, it is imperative that we launch a more coordinated and concerted humanitarian relief effort inside and outside

Afghanistan with a more generous funding. This will go a long way to alleviate the sufferings of the common Afghan.

It is equally important that concurrently we formulate a post operation rehabilitation programme, once peace returns to Afghanistan. This effort would entail, at the

minimum, restoration of water management systems, reviving of agriculture through land development, reconstruction of physical infrastructure (roads, buildings &

utilities) and establishment of institutions.

A stable and peaceful Afghanistan is in the vital interest of the region and in particular of Pakistan. Conditions must be created for more than three million refugees in

Pakistan to return to their country. We propose the establishment of an ``Afghan Trust Fund`` under UN auspices for the rehabilitation and reconstruction process.

Mr. President,

I would now like to focus on the harsh realities in the developing countries which have a relationship with extremism of all forms. Poverty and deprivation lead to

frustration, making the masses vulnerable to exploitation by extremist organizations. It is the collective, moral responsibility of the developed world to address this issue

squarely, through substantive economic uplift, poverty alleviation and social action programmes in the developing countries. Economic imbalances have to be removed

for a just; equitable and harmonious World Order. A major step in this direction would be to reduce, if not eliminate, the debt burden, hanging as a millstone around the

necks of the poor and the under developed. The bigger tragedy of the third world is that their rulers, together with their minions, plunder the country`s wealth and are

afforded easy access and safe havens to stash away the loot in the First World. Since long, restrictions have been imposed on laundering of drug money and recently

money for terrorists is being choked. Why can similar restrictions not be imposed on loot money laundering?

I appeal through this forum to all the developed countries to legislate against deposits of ill-gotten money, to assist in investigation against the looters and to ensure the

early return of the plundered wealth to the countries of their origin. In fact, I would not be far off the mark if I stated that with the return of this looted money, many of

the developing countries may be able to pay back their debts and revive their economies.

Mr. President,

Pakistan is also deeply conscious of the nuclear dimension of the security environment of our region, the danger it poses and the responsibility it places on nuclear

weapon states, particularly the two nuclear states in South Asia. We are ready to discuss how Pakistan and India can create a stable South Asian security mechanism

through a peaceful resolution of disputes, preservation of nuclear and conventional balance, confidence building measures and non-use of force prescribed by the UN

Charter. In this context, we are ready to discuss nuclear and missile restraints as well as nuclear risk reduction measures with India in a structured, comprehensive and

integrated dialogue.

Pakistan is fully alive to the responsibilities of its nuclear status. We have declared a unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing. Pakistan was not the first to initiate

nuclear tests and will not be the first to resume them. We are ready to formalize a bilateral treaty with India for mutual test ban. We have strengthened our export

controls and have established multi-layered custodial controls on our nuclear assets. Let me assure you all, that our strategic assets are well guarded and in very safe

hands. We have constantly upgraded our command and control measures and instituted an elaborate nuclear command control mechanism for iron clad custodial

controls to ensure the safety and security of our assets. Pakistan is opposed to an arms race in South Asia, be it nuclear or conventional. We will maintain deterrence

at the minimum level.

Mr. President,

I would now like to very briefly cover the internal developments in Pakistan. Over the past two years the focus has been on our Economic Revival, Poverty Alleviation,

Improving Governance, Political Restructuring and Introducing Genuine Democracy in the country. We have successfully put in place a sound democratic structure,

based on empowerment of the people at the grass root levels. A revolutionary step has been taken by providing 1/3rd of the seats to women at District level governing

councils.

I want to put on record in this august gathering that Pakistan is proud of this representation and empowerment of women, which is a unique feature in the world. Our

resolve of holding elections to Provincial and National Assemblies and the Senate in October 2002 in accordance with the road map announced last August, will remain

unchanged inspite of the prevailing environment in the region.

Mr. President,

In conclusion and, in keeping with this time of enormous trial and tribulations we are going through, I wish to make an appeal.

An appeal for the sake of mankind, for the sake of our future generations and for the sake of a better world.

Let justice prevail, let no people be wronged, let sufferings be eliminated, let discontent be addressed, let humanity rise as one Nation to eliminate subjugation of the

weak, and let there be PEACE.

Thank you.

Re: Bapu/Shah

``;-)THIS GUY WINKS AT GIRLS!!``

He winks at girls, you wink at boys. What`s the difference?

RE # 307 Studebaker

[why do you parkl your FAT behind in front of the computer]

ullu ke patthay, stop harassing saminashah.

Like I have been saying on other boards, the beacon of light will illuminate the whole universe. For such a huge quantity of light, a LARGE source is in fact needed.

Say Osama wants to flex some nuke muscle.
Now who are the most proximate kafirs to Osama :)?

Saminaji

From the LA Times

A Friend for More Than a War

By BILL RICHARDSON, Bill Richardson was U.S. secretary of Energy and U.S. ambassador to the United Nations

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-000089628nov09.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Dopinions

``In short, India is what we want other nations in that part of the world to look like: secular, peaceful, fiercely democratic and respectful of the rule of law inside and outside its borders. India can be our best political, economic and military ally in the region.``

Faiza/ 12 Head uloo

You have about as much knowledge of my physical form as you have comprehension of my spiritual or intellectual thoughts. None. I am not vain enough to dignify your last bit of stupidity, but you obviously have no idea. Probably because YOU are as repulsive on the outside as you are inside. Sorry uloo sahib, the rest of us don`t fit your distorted reality and no one believes your bs. I doubt anyone else is as ``created`` as you are. I think we are all pretty much what we say we are. Except for you. In your cyber fantasies you are a professional? I don`t know any science, medicine, or engineering PH.Ds who are as illiterate and ignorant as you. And understand this uloo sahib, my immediate and extended family are employed as medical doctors, microbiologists, etc., so I know the kind of intellectual requirements needed in these fields. (Note to Chowkies: Uloo Sahib will post messages about ``kitty parties`` next, because simulataneous different realties are overload his tiny brain)

In the last one month you have aped every intellectual idea that I have introduced or discussed from Roy to Freud. You are such a pseudo half wit, that you cannot distinguish discredited Freudian theory to the concepts that are still cornerstones of modern psychology. You take a little piece of info, find an article you don`t even read about the subject, post it and then jump up and down like an enraged baboon.

What is even more disgusting about you is that you are a racist, misogynist, bigot sorry excuse for a human being. Countless Chowkies have had to endure your jahil, half digested, barely understandable spew in fear of reading more of you gutter thana bazi. At least two Chowkies have left because, according to you uloo sahib, they ``misunderstood`` your curses and online sexual harrassment. You are beneath contempt.

Zico did NOT address you, nor did any of the Chowkies I have been conversing with. You were not invited into the conversation. Can you undertand that concept of behavior? Have you noticed that if a Chowkie is not invited into a conversation, they stay out of it? And yet you persist, idiocy in hand, writing hateful, inchoate, badly written, creepy messages. Yes, you are the affliction at Chowk, you are a pus filled, ugly disease, and the more you keep harrassing me or other Chowkies, the more we will work to have you kicked off. God have mercy on the people in your life; I would have smacked some sharam into long ago.