The Price

re

``Shah

scout:

“any idea who ``khamakhwa`` might be?”

….i thought it was one of the many heads of the hydra…or is that giving him/her/it too much credit?…

Fatimah

“Iam sorry ,if i hurt you like everyone else.Believe i never mean to hurt anybody ,but b/c of my convictions ,i forget courtesy & manners .Hard to remember,when you are restless& anxious to get across you pont of view with difficulty & right word isnt coming easily .

My short comings”

…..alright, who are you and what have you done to the real fatimah, bijli, deepika, shah, aamir et al….?

Prem:

“May be Benazir is telling the truth. May be she has realized the errors of her past ways, as she claimed, for example, recently at Stanford.”

….may be the moon really is made out of cheese, may be pigs really fly, may be the hydra will spout a brain and a coherent sentence along the way….like someone here said, the lady needs help and fast…

Reply #: 79 Romair

[The average F-16 fighter pilot, protecting the all of Lahore`s airspace by himself, risking his life on a daily basis (1/4th of my coursemates in flying died before the age of 30) on many occassions, completely responsible for a US 10-15 million aircraft, is paid the same salary that a secretary in Citibank`s Islamabad branch is paid. I now make more money than all my engineering coursemates combined in the PAF. Not because I am highly paid, but because they are ridiculously low paid.]

All good wishes to you in success for your livelihood and may God preserve you in His ``Hifz`o` Aman`` as everyone else.

No price can be paid for laying down your life for your country. How much would you expect for even sacrificing your little finger for your current employers? Would you even accept 10-15 million dollars of the cost of an F-16 for your little pinky?

That`s not what occured to Cecil Chaudhry in 1965. Neither did it occur to many others in PAF, including Naureen`s husband (fiancee at the time) who shot another Pakistani F-16 down in friendly fire in 1971 while confronting Indian Migs. If you were ever true PAF you`ll remember the episode and prove it by quoting the names. He killed his best friend in friendly fire when the country was at war and still lives in shame. Are you really PAF?

You would have been better-off as a secretary in Citibank as has been your longing in terms of salary. PAF made a mistake in hiring you in the first place.

This is harsh, but called-for in getting the record right. No bull * * * * here from pseudos like this.

Rgds

Romair

I wasn`t referring to the flying abilities of the PAF`s pilots. Their ``win/loss`` record against the Afghan Airforce (including some Russian pilots) speaks for itself as far as that goes. I was referring to the overall ``professionalism`` of the service. For example, the Argentine pilots who flew against the Brits in the Falklands were insanely brave, daring to the point of foolhardiness and in all likelihood better pilots than their Brit counterparts. However, the British Naval Air Arm pilots, while maybe not exactly Top Gun material, were part of a more professional outfit than their opponents and in terms of logistics, overall training, operational planning, strategic competence, etc, were part of a much more ``professional`` outfit.

Same goes for the PAF. The initial PAF raids on IAF bases--attempting to repeat the Israeli success in the 6-Day War--were a complete fiasco. What happened to the operational planning? Analysis? Didn`t any one in the PAF think that the IAF would have hardened hangers for their planes and, unlike the stupid Egyptians, wouldn`t have their planes neatly lined and parked wing tip to wing tip? Figuring out, correctly, what the other guy will do and figuring out how to counter it successfully is what makes an Air Force professional. Washing out 90%+ of your flight cadets simply gives you excellent pilots who go off to fly useless missions.

In 1971, the PAF basically decided to skip fighting the IAF after the first few days of the war and went into hiding.

Look at the IAF losses:
Type of Loss East West Total % age
Ack Ack/Ground Fire 10 26 36 48 %
Air to Air Combat 3 15 18 30 %
Destroyed on Ground - 2 2 2 %
Undetermined (AAC?) - 2 2 1 %
Accidents. 6 11 17 22 %
TOTAL 19 56 75

The Army destroyed almost half of all IAF planes lost, many shot down while strafing ground positions. Now, only air forces that have air superiority engage in large scale ground support operations and its pretty clear that, unlike 1965, the PAF wasn`t providing much of a challenge to the IAF. Why that is, I don`t know. The PAF Chief, when informed that the Indian Navy was steaming in to pound Karachi and that the Navy had requested help, is on record as having said, ``Let the Navy fight its own battles.`` I assume he decided to let the Army fight its own battles as well and to save the PAF`s planes. Granted the Army in 1971 is an almost textbook case of how NOT to fight a war but what happened to the PAF?

People in the PAF say that an Air Force seargent is the intellectual equal of an Army Captain (many Army officers are ex-PAF ORs--Capt. Karnail, the NiH winner in Kargil was from PAF) so, what happened? I`ve heard people say that while PAF pilots are, man for man, better than the IAF`s, the IAF`s logistics, planning capability, etc, the stuff one really needs to fight a modern war, are miles ahead of the PAF`s.

Far too many of the PAF`s ``heroes`` spend more time figuring out how to get seconded to some Arab Air Force, transferred to PIA, get a cushy job in the Shaheen Foundation, or make sure that the Meena Bazaar goes off perfectly so the Mrs. Chief will be happy, then they do in figuring out how to beat the IAF.

I`ve even heard of an officer`s wife, an Air Commodore to be, asking Begum Shamim to have her husband`s name pulled from the approved list and send him to Libya as a Group Captain since that was the rank slot for Libya then!

Sorry Romair, takes a heck of a lot more than hyper-aggressive testosterone freaks to make a force ``professional.``

Regards.

PS: I don`t think the IAF is all that great, just better than the PAF in many respects.

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btw, another curious contrast : India calls a Ramzan ceasefire(non-initiation of actions), everyone else rejects it with contempt including Pakistan, Indian `liberals` call it a cynical exploitation of religious sentiments similar to the throwing Iftar parties in the political circles, and terrorist killings in J&K are stepped up.

US rejects a Ramzan ceasefire but holds Iftar parties, Pakistan remains quiet as a mouse, which Ramzaan?, Indian `liberals` shut the hell up(not to spoil the mood while mentally taking credit for Friedman`s article, for having `arrived`) and Taliban lay down arms and surrender in large numbers.

Daisy-cutters can change ones most deeply-held assertions(don`t mistake them for beliefs) aka nothing succeeds like gunpowder.

re: semipreciousme

``...touba, touba....the very thought...let me re-phrase and say by ``them`` i meant the whole of s.east asia...hope i`ve redeemed myself...:)``

...well ok, but i think the ones you need to redeem yourself with are your countrymen...

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectNh.asp?cid=155922

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectNh.asp?cid=155922

Evangelicals sailing under ``false colours``



Sunday, December 2, 2001 (Washington):

The arrest of US Christian aid workers by the Taliban in Afghanistan has brought to light the ``growing phenomenon`` of ``placement of evangelical Protestant missionaries in Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu countries using visas falsely identifying them as secular workers``, media reports say.

The ordeal of Heather Mercer (24) and Dayna Curry (30) who were jailed by the Taliban in August for showing a video and book about Jesus to an Afghan family in their home, in violation of a law against proselytisation has revealed the increasing instances of evengelicals being posted in non-christian majority countries in the guise of aid workers, the Washington Post reported yesterday.

The missionaries are particularly active in ``10/40`` window, the rectancular area that stretches from latitudes 10 degrees north from West Africa to East Asia, the Post said adding this includes ``most of the world`s 1.2 million Muslims, 800 million Hindus and 350 million Buddhists.``

Despite the risks involved, ``a growing number of missionaries -- most often called aid workers -- are being despatched by Christian groups in the US, Britain, Germany, Australia and other countries to the region where most of the world`s Muslims live,`` the Post reports. This despite evangelical restrictions existing in most of the world`s 49 Muslim majority countries.

China restricts proselytisation to members of State-supported churches. India, where majority are Hindus but which is also the world`s ``second largest Muslim country`` also limits access to foreign missionaries, the Post notes.

The US State Department and the bipartisan Commission on Religious rights set up by Congress insist that the right to convert is a ``human right.`` The State Department makes it a practice of listing every year with disparaging remarks in its annual Report, countries where conversion is not welcome.

The US Government and Congress insist that fundamental freedoms must include not only the right to practise any religion but also to preach and proselytize.

The arrest and jailing of foreigners in non-Christian majority countries is rare despite laws against conversion, says Avery Willis, senior vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention`s International Mission Board.

When violations are detected, foreigners are often told to leave the country permanently. Locals who convert, however, can face severe punishments. ``Some are killed, often by family members who believe they have `lost face` because their parent or sibling has defected to another religion,`` says Willis.

The Southern Baptist Convention has just circularised its members to intensify efforts to convert Muslims in America to Christianity by the end of the Ramzan period.

Mission work in the Window has grown rapidly since the mid-1980s, when their leaders began ``retooling their organisations to move beyond Latin America and Southern Africa into this non-Christian area with great humanitarian needs,`` says J Dudley Woodberry, Professor of Islamic Studies at the Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasedena, California.

``The 10/40 Window`` he pointed out, ``is home to the largest number of `unreached people groups,`` the term mission groups use for ethnic populations that have never heard of the Bible`s New Testament message.

Willi, of the Richmond-based Baptist mission board, says that about 27 per cent of the board`s 5,000 missionaries are stationed in the 10/40 Window -- up from just one per cent 15 years ago.

Most Muslim countries, the Post said, do not issue visas to people who identify themselves as missionaries. ``So, Christian missionaries list their occupation as teacher, doctor, nurse, geologist, urban planner, artist, business person or engineer, according to several missionaries who asked not to be identified.``

``These are, in fact, the occupations they perform in the foreign country. But some believe their commitment to spreading the Gospel compels them to offer Christian testimonies and information to anyone who asks about their faith``, the paper further said.

Still, publishing locations and names of faith-based aid workers is not desired, as bringing attention to them could embarrass or bring disciplinary action against local officials officials ``with whom Christians have a tacit understanding``, says a woman relief worker who served in Pakistan for 6 years. (PTI)

Ras Siddiqi

It will not be to Benazir`s advantage to produce a muddled agreement on Kashmir.

I wonder if you read the great Pakistani economist Shaheed Burki`s recent set of articles in Dawn.

Pakistan can either be India`s Mexico or Canada. India is growing into a continental size economy, as Burki points out. The big question facing Pakistan is the position it wants to occupy vis a vis its giant neighbor.

By fudging the Kashmir issue, it is only Pakistan that will suffer. Recently, an LSE Professor suggested that the Kashmir problem would automatically get solved as India reached its economic and political and military power potential.

Is there any question of Mexico getting California back? In 50 years time, Pakistan asking for Kashmir will be like Mexico begging back Texas or California?

So, the Leadership of Pakistan must compromise immediately and focus on evolving into India`s Canada - Shahid Burki`s advice.

Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala

Jammu India

Shah

I dont know why I am bothering to respond to your utter nonsense.

You have nothing to do with Kashmir. Kashmir is an internal issue of India, as stated over and over by Mr. Vajpayee. You are a foreigner, a Pakistani, so please stop commenting on India`s internal affairs.

Remember there is no Democracy in Pakistan. There is a Dictatorship. What moral right do Pakistanis have to speak of human rights and ``Plebiscites`` when they have been unable to maintain democracy? First prove that Pakistan can be a democratic nation for at least 50 years. Then speak of Plebiscites.

The Kashmiris are Indians and the Govt of India will address their problems through a democratic process. The Kashmiris are as Indian as Punjabis, Haryanvis, Rajasthanis, Tamils, Bengalis, Marathis, Goans, Telegus, Biharis, Gujratis, etc.

There will never be a ``Plebiscite``. The original conditions of a Plebiscite are no longer existent.

There will never be another partition of India on religious grounds. Never.

The People of Kashmir, whether Hindu or Muslim or Buddihst Ladakhi, are far better off under Indian rule. Read Thomas Friedman`s recent article in the New York Times on the Muslims of India and Bangladesh. In the article, the question is posed to Mr Friedman by MJ Akbar ``name the only country where Muslims have enjoyed 50 years of uninterrupted democracy: the answer is India``.

When Pakistan grants Freedom and Liberation to the Pakhtoons and Sindhis and established an independent Pakhtoonistan and Sindhu Desh, then India will establish an independent Kashmir.

No amount of cross border terrorism will force India to yield. It will only increase the resolve to further integrate Kashmir into the Indian Union.

Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala

RSaxena,

``..athletics is most certainly not our forte...``

Not entirely true. There are races, jumps and throws. First two we are behind, but in throws we continue to be in the top 3 in Asia.

Raghubir Singh Bal and his disciples have done OK by India in the Hammer. Shakti Singh is a much feared and well known Shot and Discus man. His throws in the Shot (20 meters) are certainly world class. So is Ajit Bhaduria. 15-20 years ago there were a string of sardars ruling the roost in the throws. Anil Kumar is today the reigning asian discus champ. There`s also a female discus thrower (I forget her name) who`s throwing 65+ meters - which is world class.

I used to throw for my college and since those days I`ve keenly followed on how our national team in doing in the throws.

Genetically speaking, I think there`s nothing to prevent us being world class, with the proper physical and psychological training. Almost all the western athletes are affiliated to some sort of scientific research institute with doctors, coaches, psychologists and others. Also, they are full-time athletes. They are mentally `free` in that the sports body in these countries takes complete care of them. Not so in India...and so motivation for our boys and girls dries up very quickly once they land a bank job or some such. The situation seems unlikely to change in the forseeable future. And then there`s the corruption.

regards,

RE: EST Reply #: 389 poonawala wrote :

``I think Benazir will be willing to compromise on Kashmir which will lead to peace. I heard from informed friends that she is willing to concede LOC as a intertational border. In addition, she would grant Pakistani Occupied Kashmir, indedpendence.``

I believe that the Pakistan Army is willing to do the same (compromise that is) something which will lead to peace. You do not need informed sources for such information.
The problem still seems to be the exact placement of the LOC or if the Kashmiris too will accept it, without which peace will remain elusive.
And let me inform you ``Dr. Poonawala`` that Benazir is Z.A. Bhutto`s daughter, someone who offered such a compromise in Kashmir that international lawyers still have difficulty figuring out what it exactly that he surrendered to Indira at Simla.

Ras

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RSaxena:

``and btw, be careful using ``our`` ... many of your countrymen get red with anger at being bucketed like that with indians... if i understand, you people eat very different food, look completely different, and speak a strange language called urdu jo hum indians ko bilkul nahi samajh aati :)``

...touba, touba....the very thought...let me re-phrase and say by ``them`` i meant the whole of s.east asia...hope i`ve redeemed myself...:)

Prem #423
``Benazir was at the helms when Pakistan shifted some of its ``assets`` from Afganistan to Kashmir - leading to unprecedented rise in violence in Kashmir towards the end of 1980s.``

I like that term ``assets``.

Anyone noticed this contrast? When ``assets`` were surrounded in Kunduz, a piddly few-thousand-strong Army of the NA absolutely refused to consider safe passage, saying these are not Afghans, they came here to kill Afghans, we will not let them go on any account. No this-and-that about world opinion and all that crap. India on the other hand, has been offering talks to ``assets`` and their owners! How many lives have been lost because of such pussyfooting, I wonder? No wonder these ``assets`` now kill marriage parties and schoolmasters with impunity, these ``assets`` and their owners understand and respect only the language of irresistable force and determination, which India doesnot choose to show. A country must defend its own against outsiders and make it clear that it has the will to do so, I donot see what right we have to call ourselves a country if we cannot do even so much.

Dr. Ali Akbar Poonawalla

Thank you -- I welcome you to Chowk. I look forward to reading your posts. Please enlighten us with your reports from Ground Zero -- they will bring many of the cyber warriors down to earth when they learn about the havoc that the real and imagined animosities are causing.