The Price

Syed Ahmed #347 thru 350: Your posts are clearly motivated not so much by a concern for the horrors inflicted on muslims in Gujrat, but as a response to the Indian posters who got upset because of your brilliant suggestion to break up India into two. As such, you are exploiting the misery of people in real life to win points on chowk. This puts you in the same club as posters like jay, arjun, sadna, harimau, ali1 and urstruly. Congratulations.

When you have time from international issues with India, you could perhaps spare a moment to explain exactly why you refer to non-mohajir Pakistanis as ``paindoos``. And exactly what sophistication you possess that us paindoos need to aspire to. (When you have time to spare that is - right now I think you have your hands full reading your fan mail from India).

temporal #359 I assume one can disagree, and thank Bush for lifiting the terror created by taliban from Afghanistan. With millions of Afghans voting with their feet by leaving Afghanistan after the taliban took over, and hundreds of thousand now going back to their homes, it is clear that the US-led action in Afghanistan was a blessing for the Afghan people. With the same group of thugs trying to take over Pakistan, I would think we should petition Bush not to leave unfinished business, and to take the evil of mullahism out by its roots.

What the hell are you protesting about?

temporal #360 This protest is for a different one I see than the one against the war on terrorism This one on the other hand is for peace between India and Pakistan. That is fine. I will not question this one like I question the one in my post below.

audio-video-radio #149
``Why can`t they go to Pakistan, now that they have holy land for Muslims in Pakistan. We give them place to live, make mosques, and unlimited burial ground after they die.``

Spare us the slogans, they make you sound suspiciously fake. And who are `they`? Who are YOU to ask anyone to go or come? If you don`t believe in the Indian Constitution and equality of all Indians, kindly move to Pakistan yourself, I am sure they have unlimited firewood too.

Hamidm ji, ohh...your bird sounds so delicious, I wish I were in your town. To share another secret to make your Turkey little bit subcontinental, stick in some garlic cloves and small red chillies in the bird before roasting, the aroma of chill-garlic makes it very interesting. Actually, my American friends can testify they like my version than the traditional... And to make the stuffing, put in some ground spice along with some chopped cilantro and chillies.........

#127 tahmed

That`s NOT what he said. You seemed like an OK guy. Either you`re intentionally misreading or you`re having one lousy thanksgiving. My sympathies in either case.

hamidm

You ain`t doing me any favors. Why don`t you cook a lump of tofu instead, shameless carnivore you;)

tvarad

Excellent reply!

On the other hand, tahmed could be right. It`s just that in `48 & `65 pakis forgot to let us know ahead of time that the borders had changed. They were only sending their army into their own territory in kashmir or kutch..

Pakis could easily compare military size as a function of population/area/size of border/govt spending, etc. to see who is more militarized. It`s easier to whing than to think.

tahmed

I just realized you may be fasting and it sure wouldn`t help to be reading all the inane posts by hamidm. Ignore him all this month. Your crankiness may go away..

RE: Reply #: 141 tahmed321

``tvarad #@127 ``Pakistanis in general feel, they should quietly roll up their nationhood, call it a day and melt into the sands of history.``

isnt 50 years of denial enough? Pakistan wont roll up it`s nationhood, and India cant roll it up for Pakistan either, so better learn to deal with it.``

If you stepped back and thought about what I wrote, you would understand that all I am saying is - say that you are a Pakistani without apology. At least for the dignity of the 300 plus Muslims of the sub-continent in whose name your leaders set up Pakistan.

sigalph235 (reply 136). I take your point, sigalph. However, from where I stand, it looks like whether we like it or not, we will be dealing with Afghanistan in many different arenas of interest to both of us. That means an isolationist policy is simply not in the cards. Given that scenario, I made the suggestion that we follow a policy that is good for Afghanistan as well. It is the right thing to do anyway. Afghanistan and Pakistan have a great deal of crossovers of people and goods anyway - in that sense it is quite a bit different from the example of Nepal and Bhutan. From personal experience, I can also say that a lot of the travels across the borders take place because of common ethnicities and tribal ties as well. And you are right about the work to be done within Pakistan - I`ve listed some of it in my posts as you have seen. I won`t give you an `ummah` answer, simply because I`m quite sure how that would work. Did I imply that somehow?

Tahmed # 126

No way, Sir. I don’t hate anybody originating from the other side of the border. It is too much waste of energy and not really worth it.

I don’t hate Tahmed. Rather I like his conciliatory tone. Lately of course he is also found to be having feet of clay Sometimes.

Hamidm of course is a gentleman, I believe no horrible--- can hate. Rather majority of his admirers come from this hing smelling class.

Anyone from the right side of border will find it difficult to hate SameerJB, another thorough gentleman. And so on----.

Well to tell you the truth, I don’t hate even those who indulge in bad language and mud slinging. I may get irritated and then give back without mercy but hate? No.

So, now, you Mr. Ahmed, please do let me know what was there depicting hate in what I posted? Was it not factually correct? A reality show?

And before you get on your pedestal to sermonize, I will most humbly request you to please explain why should India be held responsible for Pakistan’s follies. From Jinnah down to Musharraf, there has never been an Indian acting as advisor to any of them. And why Pakistan always has to decide its action in relation to India.

Rest assured, Indians will be very happy to see Pakistan becoming a stable country but why keep on expecting India to get blackmailed emotionally as well as threateningly. You do remember Zulfi, Indira and Simla, Zia and his terror creation network continued till date. Inspite of Nehru respecting Jinnah’s emotions about India and his property in India and his desire to come back to India after creating Pak, Indira handing over land as well as men to Zulfi, Gujral giving many relaxations unilaterally, MFN status, Vajpayee announcing confidence building measureson the eve of Agra, please let us know when did Pakistan shower that tiny little drop of love on its neighbour? At the end there has been nothing except single Alaap ‘Kashmir’.

While I do respect your sentiments about ending hostility in South Asia, I think it is time that Pakistan takes that tiny little first step and stop sending warriors having allegience to Ummah across the border. Meanwhile let Indians savour some sadistic pleasure at the ‘Strategic Death’

Best Regards

P.S. Please read your 126 post again and check out who has written with hate.

hamidm # 147

``---more butter ... now if i could only find an indian or two to share the feast with ......``

May I join you, Sir?

If the answer is `NO` then

Will you allow Gate Crashers?

If the answer is again `NO` then

Will you promise not to shoot the intruders?

And please please please, No `NO` now.

Re: Tahmed321 #137

``...the middle class that is treats the poverty stricken millions of the subcontinent as invisible men...``

I think that Vajpayee got it right when he said in his invitation to Musharraf to Agra, ``Our common enemy is poverty. For the welfare of our peoples, there is no other recourse but a pursuit of the path of reconciliation, of engaging in productive dialogue and by building trust and confidence. I invite you to walk this high road with us.``

tahmed #143

``I find it hard to believe that a child brought up in the US, and particularly in a US suburb as you probably live in, would dream of putting down someone due to ethnic or religious reasons``

...... i hate to disappoint you but prejudice is easily transmitted - the virus can lay dormant, but once you are exposed to it it is always there, ready to rear its ugly head when you least expect it ......... it doesn`t matter if you live in the suburbs, go to private schools and have many indian friends - somewhere along the way, maybe on their annual trips to pakistan, my kids picked up the notion that they are meat-eating pakis and somhow better than vegetarian indians ..... and it has nothing to do with kashmir or partition because like most other americans they don`t know and don`t care ...... they are no different from ivy-league educated third generation serb-americans who, after a drink or two, will tell you what they really think of ``turks`` ......and regardless of what we say, no one dares to go to an atm at night if an afro-american happens to be around - even if he is driving a bmw .....

........ but they are no different than most of the rabid interlocuters on the chowk - most of us, including jay and ali, are probably very nice people who would vehemently deny that they are prejudiced and have many muslim friends and eat meat and have drinking buddies who are hindus - but scratch the surface and you will find seething ugliness ..... it is a natural condition

....... look at the way how most of the ``liberal`` white americans are behaving after nine-eleven .... the latent suspicion, hostility and prejudice didn`t take long to surface ....... sure people are trying to be nice and polite and reasonable, but they are ``trying`` hard - it does not come natural any more as they regress to their primal state ...... it didn`t take much and it didn`t take long ...... why go far - look at ayaz amir, a reasonable man given to drinking and gallivanting and liberal writing .....see how he gave in to his innate hostility towards the west and jumped on his nationalistic soap-box to rant and rave against the little general ..... i am sure he still loves the scotch and will go back to being a reasonable person once the fever dies down .......

....... the most virulent form of this virus is the religious strain which, combined with nationalism, is a real killer .....it is every where and we are all destined to be consumed by it .......

........ on a happier note: the two dozen kids loved the traditional turkey dinner which i cooked up single-handedly, ramadhan or no ramadhan ...... the adults, fastidious religious fools that they are, said some stupid stuff like `` yuck, who feels like having turkey and mashed potatoes after fasting all day`` ....... for god`s sake, give it up! - all you did was miss lunch ! ....but nevertheless, they stuffed themselves with samosas and biryani and greasy korma ..... i managed to delay the dinner long enough so that no one was able to go for taraweeh - that earned me another five points with satan and maintained my standing with the kids as their favourite uncle!

...... all is not lost, yet

Ethnic Cleansing of Hindus from Bangladesh?

Ramesh N. Rao

Another classic by Ayaz Amir. This article explains why I am equally, if not more, afraid of the Ata-Turks than the Amir-ul-Momineens.

``Who`s held a gun to the nation`s head? It cannot be the Beards who have never held power in the state. While they can be accused of many things--principally of being a nuisance and of filling the airwaves with rhetoric we could all have done without-- mismanaging the nation`s affairs is not a sin that can be laid at their door.

For this feat of endurance--ineptitude and folly spread over 50 years--the English-speaking governing elite in power since 1947 has to carry all the blame. In Pakistan`s power structure the Beards have been outsiders......

It bears asking at this point as to who is a liberal in the Pakistani context and who a fundo? A liberal is someone who has climbed the ladder of an English education for social and other forms of preferment, Pakistani liberalism having nothing to do with any intellectual tradition, much less with the Whig tradition of British history. It is all form and no substance. Crackling thunder, no rain (my note: who does this remind me of on this site; all sarcasm, no content).

Conversely, a fundo means someone who is (mostly) from the other side of the tracks and seeks solace, or a solution to the world`s problems, in a literal and narrow rendering of the tenets of Islam.

What is the touchstone of the liberal credo? An end to prohibition (something with which I agree but for different reasons). That`s about it (my note: Is Ayaz describing hamidm here :-)). It`s more fun being sentimental about the national interest in a crowded bar or a club than in the enforced privacy of one`s home......

So there we have it. Pakistan`s problem lies not amongst its bearded population or in the obscure curriculum taught in its religious seminaries. If it did, the solution would be simple: bulldozing the madrassas and perhaps press-ganging their students into the army. The problem lies elsewhere: not in the minds supposedly chained to the past but in the `liberal` establishment which has always prided itself on having its eyes on the future.....

Only if the army pursues a Kemalist (my note: some redemption for the Ata-Turks, here; notice that Ayaz advises this only for the Army, which I have been suggeting also; not for all of Pakistan) agenda and sets the country on the path to an enduring democracy will we be able to say that we took the right turning and exploited the situation to our advantage.

But for this to happen and for us to start on this journey, the first essential is to stop pretending that the Beards and madrassas have been the source of our problems.

(http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm)

It is due to the above reasons that the, ``secular`` fanatics (a different species from secular common folk) and the religious extremists hate Musharraf`s govt., equally; including the ones on this site. He has shaken the mixture, and both these groups see their powers being eliminated. Hopefully, Pakistan will now be able to rid itself of its Turks and Arabs; its liberal and conservative mafias, who consider all others to be ignorant. Just like Afghnistan is trying to rid itself of its Iranis, Pakistanis, Indians, Arabs and Russians.

Chowkies

Interesting radio program featuring Kurt Maier, author of a new book Tournament of Shadows. His book writes about Central Asia as the historical and geographical ground that the Russians and British fought proxy wars in the 1900s. Of particular interest; the Pashtoon leader Zafar Khan of the North, considered one of the great Sufi Muslim Gandhian disciples of non violent resistance. Can anyone who has one nickname speak to this? Guess I will be buying this book as well...

Shima, Sadna, Tahmed, Hamid

Thanks for the replies. We managed to conflate both Thankgiving and aftar. The whole family came; Indian and American food (which is still somewhat exotic to me, and my family)was prepared, Bismallah and honoring those in NYC and Afghanistan for predinner prayers. Then the men played chess and the women cleaned up...what do you expect, hain? (Although Mr. S helped with the dishes after he trounced my bro at chess)Fret not, behenei; the men are cooking and cleaning next year`s dinner...

regards