The Price

Re: Fatimah

``WE THESE ISRELIS WHO ARE INDIAS PAL AT LEAST SOME OF THEM``

you got that right, 12-head...i was at a meeting with the foreign minister from israel, shimon peres, in new york last week and he couldn`t stop talking about india in the context of global affairs...your paranoia about the indo-jewish conspiracy is starting to come to life...

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Stuka,Zafar,&Dost Mitter So proud of Delhi take note

We invite you to a

Lok Sunwayi(HEARINGS) of Delhi Cycle Rickshaw



Pullers and Owners

Do you know that:

„« A citizen of Delhi can legally own any number of cars, trucks, buses or even aeroplanes. But owning more than one cycle rickshaw is ¡¥illegal¡¦. And that such an ¡¥illegal¡¦ vehicle can be confiscated and sold as junk by the municipality.

„« A person owning a car or a bus is allowed to hire any number of persons, who have a valid driving license, to drive his/her vehicle. But if a rickshaw owner allows a relative to ply his vehicle, or hires someone else to operate it, the municipal corporation treats it as an offence serious enough to confiscate and destroy his rickshaw.

„« This `rickshaw to the puller` policy may appear pro-poor on paper, but in fact has facilitated a multi crore extortion racket by the municipal employees.

„« If a car owner commits a traffic offence or strays into a `No Entry` zone, he/she pays a relatively small amount of money by way of fine. A rickshaw puller committing a similar offence, invites confiscation and destruction of the vehicle, or in some areas, a minimum fine of Rs. 325 (apart from the grease money) for getting it released.

„« There is no set limit on the number of cars, two-wheelers and other motorised vehicles that can be registered in the city of Delhi. But the municipal authorities have fixed an unrealistic quota of 99,000 for cycle rickshaws „o in actual fact there are 5¡V6 lakhs of them plying in Delhi.

„« The license-quota-raid-raj, as it operates in this sector, has facilitated a vast extortion racket.

„« The loss of income suffered by rickshaw-pullers and owners due to monthly bribes and fines to the police and the corporation employees would amount to no less than 60 crores per year in the city of Delhi alone. In addition, they suffer losses due to confiscation and destruction of thousands of rickshaws every year.

To get a fuller account of how the municipal and police officials use absurd and colonial minded laws to tyrannise and fleece rickshaw-pullers and owners through various legal, illegal and extra-legal means, we invite you to join us for a Lok Sunwayi of the people engaged in this trade.

We solicit your support and urge you to inform other interested people to join us for this Lok Sunwayi.

ali1---42

[``Thomas Friedman`s article in today`s NYT will be posted at least 50 times by the McLingums on chowk.com today. Bets anyone?``]

That is understandable.Please be a bit forgiving & generous.

Athharaakhasmi Tripathi?You must be kidding!How can someone be named thus at birth.Oh I see!the astrologer! Hmmmmmm.Good Coinage.;)

Havnt heard from temporal for a long time

Three more Pakistanis detained in America

By Our Staff Correspondent

WASHINGTON, Nov 20: Three more Pakistani nationals have been detained by US authorities, bringing the total number of Pakistanis in custody so far to nearly 70.

These are cases of which the Pakistan embassy has been informed and relate only to Pakistani nationals, not to US citizens of Pakistani descent, hundreds of whom are also said to be in custody. Almost 90 per cent of the Pakistani nationals detained are being held on immigration charges.

The three new cases, reported over the weekend, concern Syed Farooq Ahmed, 33, held in New York; Khwaja Mahboobur Rahman, 47, in Baltimore, Carroll County; and Qaiser Rafiq, 39. in Suffield, Connecticut.

A Pakistan embassy press release says that contact has been established with the FBI, the State Department and the relevant detention centres to provide the requisite consular assistance to the three detainees. The embassy has urged Carroll County Detention Centre officials to provide medical treatment to Mahboobur Rahman, who is suffering from high blood pressure. US officials at Suffield, Connecticut, have neither confirmed nor denied Qaiser Rafiq`s arrest. However, the embassy says it has been inquiring about his welfare from the officials concerned on the basis of the information provided by Mr Rafiq`s family.

BILLY GRAHAM THE FUNDAMENTALIST OF ALL FUNDAMENTALIST SON ,IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE SAID THE CHRISTIAN GOD IS DIFFERENT THAN MUSLIM GOD WHICH IS EVIL





November 20, 2001

THE EVANGELIST

Muslim Group Seeks to Meet Billy Graham`s Son

By GUSTAV NIEBUHR



The Associated Press

The Rev. Franklin Graham drew attention with remarks on Islam.







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Muslim advocacy organization, the Council on America-Islamic Relations, said yesterday that it had sent a letter to the Rev. Franklin Graham, to discuss remarks that Mr. Graham, an evangelist, made describing Islam as evil.

Nihad Awad, the council`s executive director, said that he wrote to ask Mr. Graham to meet with him and Muslim scholars, as a response to remarks Mr. Graham made in an October interview broadcast on Friday on NBC`s ``Nightly News.``

Mr. Graham, the eldest son of the evangelist Billy Graham, is president of Samaritan`s Purse, a Christian relief organization that provides food, clothing and medical aid to poor people overseas.

According to a transcript of the interview, Mr. Graham said Islam had attacked the United States on Sept. 11. He said that Muslims worshiped a different God than Christians and that he believed Islam to be ``a very evil and wicked religion.``

The remarks came amid a longer interview, devoted mainly to Mr. Graham`s Christian theology. Mr. Graham has emerged as a major figure among evangelical Protestants, offering prayers at national events, including President Bush`s inauguration.

His criticism of Islam stands out when many public figures have emphasized interreligious understanding, not least Mr. Bush, who has asked Americans not to blame the faith for the acts of Sept. 11.

Mr. Awad said he wanted to give Mr. Graham ``a chance to know Islam first-hand.``

In his letter, Mr. Awad said ``negative impressions of Islam are most often based on a lack of accurate and objective information.``

On Sunday, Mr. Graham sent a statement to The Charlotte Observer, in which he said his group was providing ``more relief and aid to Muslim people`` than to anyone else. He also said his calling was as a Christian minister, proclaiming God, not analyzing other faiths.

But he said, too, that he had expressed concerns about ``the teachings of Islam regarding the treatment of women and the killing of non- Muslims, or `infidels.` ``

A spokeswoman said yesterday that Mr. Graham would not comment further.



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Goodbye Sam, Hullo Samantha.

Tweedle dee dum went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Tweedele dee dee came tumbling back after a shave without foam.

It doesn`t have to rhyme, Taliban makes for excellent Northern Alliance, like biryani.

And finally:-

````We shall always wave happily or angrily at cameras````

Amazing world!! Everybody wants to be ylh!!

Ahmed Madani for President, ylh for Leader of Opposition, and may I take a bow for solving all of Pakistan`s problems?

I want to see this on the chowk font

ylh

yih

y1h

YLH

y|h

and finally

y-h

y=h

y( *)h

or maybe

y

Apparition,

Dunno why; but when I picture the nick ,scout, I imagine a very pretty girl with a moustache & a goatee.

ny times

November 21, 2001

THE INTERVIEWS

A Police Force Rebuffs F.B.I. on Querying Mideast Men

By FOX BUTTERFIELD

he Portland, Ore., police will not cooperate with the Federal Bureau of Investigation in its efforts to interview 5,000 young Middle Eastern men nationwide because such questioning violates state law, the department`s acting police chief, Andrew Kirkland, said yesterday.

The decision is the first known case of a city`s refusing to go along with the antiterrorism effort, which was announced last week by Attorney General John Ashcroft.

But top police officials in several other cities have also said that Mr. Ashcroft`s plan raises troubling questions about racial profiling — an issue that has brought endless grief to police departments nationwide — and may violate local and state laws about issues like intelligence gathering for political purposes.

Charles Gorder, an assistant United States attorney in Portland, said he could not comment on the decision by the police. But Mr. Gorder, who is coordinator of the local F.B.I. joint terrorism task force, said, ``We will get the interviews done,`` suggesting that F.B.I. agents would do the questioning themselves. ``We do not think there any violations of state or federal law,`` Mr. Gorder added.

Acting Chief Kirkland said the United States attorney`s office in Portland asked the police last Thursday to help with interviews of young Middle Eastern men in the city, sending along a list of 200 names. He said he quickly decided not to cooperate.

``I didn`t have to think too long about it,`` Mr. Kirkland said yesterday in a telephone interview. ``We`re not going to do it.``

Mr. Kirkland said Oregon law prohibited the local police from questioning immigrants when they were not suspected of any crime and the only issue under discussion was their foreign citizenship.

``If the F.B.I. has something specific about a crime they are investigating, or a potential crime that these people might commit, then we would reconsider,`` said Mr. Kirkland, an assistant chief who is Portland`s acting chief this week while Chief Mark Kroeker is on vacation.

But the F.B.I. list, he said, contained ``no specifics`` about what crimes the 5,000 men might be involved with, saying only that they had come to this country in the last two years on student, tourist or business visas from countries with suspected terrorist links. The department also received a list of questions about the men`s activities and knowledge of terrorist groups, he said.

Portland has a large immigrant population, and Acting Chief Kirkland said the city had historically passed through periods when immigrants were targets of political and police persecution.

Mr. Kirkland, who is black, said his own background had also played a role in his decision. ``I grew up in Detroit,`` he said, ``and I hated the police with a passion. They were always stopping and bothering me.``

F.B.I. agents began interviewing some of the 5,000 men late last week, but there are so many on the list that Mr. Ashcroft has asked local police forces around the nation to conduct many of the interviews themselves, so they can be completed within 30 days. Despite his sense of urgency, a number of major city police departments said they had not yet been officially contacted by the F.B.I. or the Justice Department. Those cities include Baltimore, Minneapolis, Tucson and Seattle, police officials said.

In Seattle, the police chief, Gil Kerlikowske, said that he had not received a formal request for help but that he had contacted the local F.B.I. office himself and was told the bureau was interested in questioning fewer than two dozen men in Seattle. Since the number was small, Chief Kerlikowske said, the F.B.I. might be doing all the interviews itself.

``I think for police departments this is an incredibly sensitive problem,`` the chief said. ``On the one hand, we don`t want to harm relationships with community members that we have worked hard for years to build. We depend on information that these people bring to us when they come to trust us.``

``On the other hand,`` he said, ``we want to track down the terrorists. So it is a Hobson`s choice. We`d like to be able to help the F.B.I., and we know the local community in a way they don`t.``

But before he could have his officers conduct such interviews, Chief Kerlikowske said, he would have to review an ordinance prohibiting investigations to determine a person`s political or religious thinking.

In Ann Arbor, Mich., the police chief, Daniel Oates, also expressed reservations, saying he had not yet been contacted about the interviews. Because the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor has international students who might be on the list, Chief Oates said, ``I have questions about the propriety of this.``

How, he asked, ``does someone end up on this list?``

Like in the movie ,Gunga Jamuna ,Dilip Kumar ,hunted by the ``authorities`` ,fighting for justice against nepotism,corruption& injustice ,Osama indeed will become Karbala of gheto kids & may be one priviliged one too,in all Islamic world for long time





Bin Laden tells aides to kill him before US gets him

AFP/PTI • Riyadh • November 21 • 6:05 PM IST





Saudi-born Osama bin Laden, hunted by US special forces for masterminding the terror attacks, has told his aides to kill him before he is captured by American troops, a newspaper reported on Wednesday.

``Bin Laden has informed a number of people close and dedicated to him that he was living his last weeks or days,`` said Al-Watan newspaper, quoting ``highly informed US and European diplomatic sources`` in Paris.

``He refuses to allow Americans, or members of the Afghan Northern Alliance, to kill him, and also refuses to be taken prisoner by them because that will be a major defeat for him.``

``So, bin Laden has instructed those aides who remain with him until the end to shoot him if he is surrounded by US special forces or the Northern Alliance, and there is no escape,`` the Arabic daily added.

Bin Laden had asked those aides to swear to him they will abide by these instructions and they did, the paper said.

``Bin Laden has even asked one of his sons to shoot him instead of being captured by the Americans or the Afghan opposition. He believes that it`s better to die at the hands of his aides or his sons, rather than being captured by his enemies.``

Al-Watan said that bin Laden has recorded his political ``will`` or his last message on a videotape, which is to be broadcast after his death. In the tape, bin Laden urges more strikes on US interests everywhere.

The information, which could not be independently confirmed, was received by the US Administration after the interrogation of a number of military and security officials, defected from the Taliban, Al-Watan said.



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shammi #38: ``It was Pakistan, not the Northern Alliance, that wrecked Kabul the first time around``

Anything to put the blame on Pakistan seems to be theme in India, these days. This will soon prove counterproductive. Pakistan is too important to the rest of the world now.

Pakistan, like most countries in the region, did assist in wrecking Kabul, to some extent. However, Pakistan has assisted the Afghanis more than any country in the world, also. It did accept the largest refugee population anywhere in the world, and has provided for them for decades, at great cost to itself. While Australia was unwilling to accept even 200 refugees.

But, if you want to find out who wrecked Kabul the first time around, it was the Soviet Union`s invasion. Whatever the state of Kabul may have been before the invasion, it certainly was better than what it is now.

So I would be interested in your opinion on India`s stance during the Soviet invasion. Since you have accused Pakistan of being the, ``first,`` in indirectly supporting a bad govt in Kabul, where exactly does that place India`s indirect support of the 80s? And why exactly is India supporting the warlords of the Northern Alliance, now? According to RAWA, they are as bad as the Taliban. Is India supporting them, because it feels they will raise the living standards of the Afghans (not if you belive RAWA), or because the NA is a good source to cause trouble to Pakistan. After all, India does not even border Afghanistan.

Would be interested in some objective replies from your side.

RAWA is the only voice of reason from Afghanistan.

Before people get too excited, and too involved in the blame game, quoting everyone from the Cato Institute to Friedman (why don`t Indians ever quote Amnesty International; is it because they are banned in certain parts of India? Come to think of it even Friedman and the other international journalists quoted by Indians, are banned in certain parts of India. At least, Pakistan allows them to move around freely in Pakistan to report on the problems that exist in Pakistan.), here is an interesting article from www.rawa.org:

``RAWA`s appeal to the UN and World community

The people of Afghanistan do not accept domination of the Northern Alliance!

Now it is confirmed that the Taliban have left Kabul and the Northern Alliance has entered the city.

The world should understand that the Northern Alliance is composed of some bands who did show their real criminal and inhuman nature when they were ruling Afghanistan from 1992 to 1996.

The retreat of the terrorist Taliban from Kabul is a positive development, but entering of the rapist and looter NA in the city is nothing but a dreadful and shocking news for about 2 million residents of Kabul whose wounds of the years 1992-96 have not healed yet.

Thousands of people who fled Kabul during the past two months were saying that they feared coming to power of the NA in Kabul much more than being scared by the US bombing.

The Taliban and Al-Qaeda will be eliminated, but the existence of the NA as a military force would shatter the joyful dream of the majority for an Afghanistan free from the odious chains of barbaric Taliban. The NA will horribly intensify the ethnic and religious conflicts and will never refrain to fan the fire of another brutal and endless civil war in order to retain in power. The terrible news of looting and inhuman massacre of the captured Taliban or their foreign accomplices in Mazar-e-Sharif in past few days speaks for itself.

Though the NA has learned how to pose sometimes before the West as ``democratic`` and even supporter of women`s rights, but in fact they have not at all changed, as a leopard cannot change its spots.

RAWA has already documented heinous crimes of the NA. Time is running out. RAWA on its own part appeals to the UN and world community as a whole to pay urgent and considerable heed to the recent developments in our ill-fated Afghanistan before it is too late.

We would like to emphatically ask the UN to send its effective peace-keeping force into the country before the NA can repeat the unforgettable crimes they committed in the said years.

The UN should withdraw its recognition to the so-called Islamic government headed by Rabbani and help the establishment of a broad-based government based on the democratic values.

RAWA`s call stems from the aspirations of the vast majority of the people of Afghanistan.`` (RAWA)

So whose Afghanis are better? Ours or the Indians? We seem to have realized that ours weren`t too good. Now hopefully, the Indians will realize theirs aren`t too good either. Also, the Indians need to understand the NA cannot cause any problems for Pakistan (the only motivation for Indian support), so there is no point in supporting them.

faahaad #33 ``As for not having TV and nail polish and such, these are not necessities that were taken away. A person can live without them, and in general I think, teh population adn the country as a whole would be better off without entertainment like this.``

Please confirm that you do not watch TV and you stopped using nail polish once you grew a beard. Thank you.

Also, please confirm that this is the last time you will use the internet, and that you will toss away all the light bulbs in your house. Also, never again use a car or bus or anything other than a donkey to get around. Also, please advise the mullahs to stop using those damned loudspeakers with their animal-like shrieks and howls that they think has something to do with religion. And finally, please advise mullahs to drop their nasty kalashnikovs.

I will then agree that ``the country as a whole would be better off without entertainment like this``.

````in my long-haired socialist days i would say silly things like, `` the hindoo is not our enemy, it is the bourgeois and the petty bourgeois who has divided us````(hamidm)

u too monsieur:-)

the horrible hindoo is still NOT our enemy -- it`s the monstrous muslim who IS....

ali1 #42. The link is buried someplace and one needs a search to ferret it out.

Indian democracy is flawed but the alternative (dictatorship) is far worse and would most certainly have seen the country go the way of the soviet union. The range of languages, religions, ethnicities, cultures and subcultures is truly astounding.

actually I think that Pakistan also has its share of diversity (in terms of ethnicity and language)but its identity has been tied to religion(TNT) and could sure do with some diversification. I am a little puzzled that the so-called ``mohajir`` migrants have apparently not integrated (I do know that PM is one such).. the migrants from Pakistan (to India) dont have any such distinct identity.

Religion or caste or language has really declined in importance, especially in urban areas of India. Ultimately employers want people who can deliver.

--

Today`s News Quiz

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN



NEW DELHI -- So, class, time for a news quiz: Name the second-largest Muslim community in the world. Iran? Wrong. Pakistan? Wrong. Saudi Arabia? Wrong. Time`s up — you lose.

Answer: India. That`s right: India, with nearly 150 million Muslims, is believed to have more Muslim citizens than Pakistan or Bangladesh, and is second only to Indonesia. Which brings up another question that I`ve been asking here in New Delhi: Why is it you don`t hear about Indian Muslims — who are a minority in this vast Hindu-dominated land — blaming America for all their problems or wanting to fly suicide planes into the Indian Parliament?

Answer: Multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free-market democracy. To be sure, Indian Muslims have their frustrations, and have squared off over the years in violent clashes with Hindus, as has every other minority in India. But they live in a noisy, messy democracy, where opportunities and a political voice are open to them, and that makes a huge difference.

``I`ll give you a quiz question: Which is the only large Muslim community to enjoy sustained democracy for the last 50 years? The Muslims of India,`` remarked M. J. Akbar, the Muslim editor of Asian Age, a national Indian English-language daily funded by non-Muslim Indians. ``I am not going to exaggerate Muslim good fortune in India. There are tensions, economic discrimination and provocations, like the destruction of the mosque at Ayodhya. But the fact is, the Indian Constitution is secular and provides a real opportunity for the economic advancement of any community that can offer talent. That`s why a growing Muslim middle class here is moving up and, generally, doesn`t manifest the strands of deep anger you find in many non-democratic Muslim states.``

In other words, for all the talk about Islam and Islamic rage, the real issue is: Islam in what context? Where Islam is imbedded in authoritarian societies it tends to become the vehicle of angry protest, because religion and the mosque are the only places people can organize against autocratic leaders. And when those leaders are seen as being propped up by America, America also becomes the target of Muslim rage.

But where Islam is imbedded in a pluralistic, democratic society, it thrives like any other religion. Two of India`s presidents have been Muslims; a Muslim woman sits on India`s supreme court. The architect of India`s missile program, A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, is a Muslim. Indian Muslims, including women, have been governors of many Indian states, and the wealthiest man in India, the info-tech whiz Azim Premji, is a Muslim. The other day the Indian Muslim film star and parliamentarian Shabana Azmi lashed out at the imam of New Delhi`s biggest mosque. She criticized him for putting Islam in a bad light and suggested he go join the Taliban in Kandahar. In a democracy, liberal Muslims, particularly women, are not afraid to take on rigid mullahs.

Followed Bangladesh lately? It has almost as many Muslims as Pakistan. Over the last 10 years, though, without the world noticing, Bangladesh has had three democratic transfers of power, in two of which — are you ready? — Muslim women were elected prime ministers. Result: All the economic and social indicators in Bangladesh have been pointing upward lately, and Bangladeshis are not preoccupied hating America. Meanwhile in Pakistan, trapped in the circle of bin Ladenism — military dictatorship, poverty and anti-modernist Islamic schools, all reinforcing each other — the social indicators are all pointing down and hostility to America is rife.

Hello? Hello? There`s a message here: It`s democracy, stupid! Those who argue that we needn`t press for democracy in Arab-Muslim states, and can rely on repressive regimes, have it all wrong. If we cut off every other avenue for non-revolutionary social change, pressure for change will burst out anyway — as Muslim rage and anti-Americanism.

If America wants to break the bin Laden circles across the Arab-Muslim world, then, ``it needs to find role models that are succeeding as pluralistic, democratic, modernizing societies, like India — which is constantly being challenged by religious extremists of all hues — and support them,`` argues Raja Mohan, strategic affairs editor of The Hindu newspaper.

So true. For Muslim societies to achieve their full potential today, democracy may not be sufficient, but it sure is necessary. And we, and they, fool ourselves to think otherwise.