The Price

Re:Romair

``..If these people are so concerened about real democracy (like the rest of us), then why not bring up the names of honest politicians like Imran Khan, Asghar Khan, etc. ..``

I have been pleasantly very surprised at how meek the religious parties really are in Pakistan. Prior to the US involvment in Afghanistan, I would have had a hard time believing it. So, kudos to the moderate Pakistani society. I am now more convinced that a lack of civil discourse in Pakistan gives a disproportionate voice to the religious parties. This has the undesirable effect of inflating the importance that the religious parties attach to themselves. If the current circumstances are allowed to go on long enough, the religious parties may end up becoming truly important.

Imran & Asghar Khan may be honest, but that is only one quality a politician needs to have -- the most important is to earn the public trust. Only a few election cycles in which the first few governments will probably be awful, and will get thrown out, will lead to systemic evolution in which both the politicians and the public will learn how to manage each other`s expectations.

In the meantime, the entire neighborhood should chill out -- a broadbased govt. in Afghanistan with both India and Pakistan keeping their fingers out of the cookie jar, and a reduction of tension between India and Pakistan over Kashmir.

Good job, Pakistan:

``Pakistan jails Islamic leader``

A three-year prison sentence is given to an Islamic leader who led thousands of Pakistanis across the border to support the Taleban in Afghanistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1669000/1669228.stm

re: 12-head

``WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT HINDIAN & ISRAELIS

YOU CAN HAVE GAY RELATION WITH SHIRON FOR I CARE

SHIMON COMES & GOES ,ITS NO NEWS``

..insightful and eloquent, as always

U.S. Pledges to Fight Terrorism Against India

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - The U.S. ambassador to India said Wednesday Washington and New Delhi were on the brink of a major relationship, and pledged the war against terrorism would not be over until terrorism ended against both countries.

``A terrorist is a terrorist,`` Ambassador Robert Blackwill said in reply to a question about Pakistan`s support for militants fighting Indian rule in the northern state of Jammu and Kashmir.

``They are not freedom fighters. No country will be permitted to provide sanctuaries to terrorists,`` Blackwill said.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-attack-india.html?searchpv=reuters

avm romair

``One day you call for Musharraf staying around for a year, the next day, you call for elections in 90 days. Make up your mind.``

...... okay, we will give him a year - but, based on the history of our rogue army I don`t know if he can be trusted .....personally, i don`t know why he needs a year - he can move the missus and her furniture from army house to president`s house across town in a day or two .....the local sub-area commander can provide the three-tonners and a fatigue of jawans to do the heavy lifting ....... maybe the air-chief can pitch in with a C-130 driving down islamabad highway .... the naval chief might felt left out of the ritual a%%-kissing, so we will let him be first in line to welcome mushy to his new home ....... the only problem i see with this setup is that the prime minister`s house still looks down at the presidency .... so maybe we should move the house on the hill down to G-8, with the afghans and other riff-raff ........ maybe then the army will feel safe from the horrible civilians dressed in improper mufti .........

...... as for bringing up benazir and nawaz sharif - all i was trying to say is that those two would have done the exact same thing; they would have listened to musharraf or any other clown in khaki who happened to be in charge of 10 corps....afterall, the army does control the nukes and the cricket board ......

...... any other politician would be fine - omar khan, imran khan, leghari, mazari, khar, wali khan, nawabzada nasrullah, wasim sajjad, aitizaz ahsan ..... anyone, as long as he is not out to establish the khilafat ...... i know this sounds contradictory to the principles of democracy which i espouse, but religious parties have to be treated like the anarchists and fascists - as foud ajami says they believe in ``one-man,one-vote, one-time`` and are therefore dangerous - more dangerous than the generals in their lust for power and duty-free cars .......

Sarwari,

Your post is a joke. I visited ``The Progressive`` and that site is a joke as well. Did I hear anyone complaining about US was in Kosovo? I wonder what happened to your type of pacifist them. If any one is to blame for current Afgan mess, it is Pakistan because it is your country that propped up Taliban and all the terrorists in the region, hell it still does.

``ISLAMABAD, Nov 20: President Pervez Musharraf has urged a humanitarian response to offers of surrender by Afghan forces in Kunduz province of Afghanistan``

..... so he wants them back in malakand, or is he hoping to use them in kashmir? .....it seems the great mind still hasn`t recoverd from front-rolling down the academy stairs ........ here is an opportunity for someone else to do the dirty work and rid mankind of this pestilence, and mushy wants to blow it .......this is not compassion - it is stupidity ! ........ and how did mullah shafi and 700 jihadis of TNSM get back into Pakistan ? ....last time i checked the army had a cantonment in parachinar, or is the political agent running the show .... maybe the commandant of the scouts and the political agent were bought off ....income from smuggling must be down ...... what stopped them from calling in the B-52s while the scum were still on that side of the border ?....... maybe they failed map-reading alongwith wt and geopolitics......

............ on my first night march, i got lost two miles from the gates of pma ........ some of us are still lost .......

........ but we still haven`t given up on mushy - we are all such hopeless fools ....... maybe, just maybe, he will prove us wrong - god knows, i will be more than happy to eat my words .........

RE: Reply #: 80 sarwari

On Pakistan`s meddling in Afghanistan vs. India`s meddling in Afghanistan``

``First, let me say that India does a good job of keeping its masses disillusioned. And Dah! Guess who shares a long border with Afghanistan, and guess who doesn’t? Pathetic!``

Then you wouldn`t mind India meddling in Pakistani affairs just because of it has the longest border of any country with it?

Seriously, India was involved in the birth of Bangladesh yet it was out of it within 3 or 4 months. Ever since, the Bangladeshis have gone out of their way to prove that they are independent of Indian influence, bumping off a couple of Indians once in a while to prove this point (India could retaliate but I guess that`s just what the thugs who perpetrate such crimes would like to strengthen their political base). The point is that a long border doesn`t give Pakistan any God given right to meddle in a sovereign state.

The aftermath of September 11 incidents in the US made most Americans ponder over the reasons for widespread unpopularity of the US even in countries where the United States government thought that it was doing a great job of providing economic and humanitarian assistance. An introspection exercise, anytime, is a wise step - and useful if somebody decides to learn from it also. The United States felt the need for such a search after an unprecedented catastrophe.

It is now time for Pakistan to ascertain why Pakistanis were the first to be slaughtered in Mazar-i-Sharif and Kabul after the Northern Alliance walked in? Simplistic explanations like Pakistan`s role in raising, nurturing and recognising the Taliban against the Northern Alliance`s government will not do. Let us face the fact that Pakistan was never liked much in the neighbouring countries. Only our greatest friend, China, still remains a very close ally - hopefully not out of generosity. India hates us mainly due to Kashmir - we reciprocate these sentiments. Iran, which has now attained the position of one of the sanest states in the region, has rather cool feelings towards Pakistan partly due to her empathy for the Northern Alliance and partly the killings of prominent Shias in Pakistan. The Central Asian Muslims states at the dawn of their independence had great warmth for Pakistan, but activities of some our religious organisations spoilt the genuine feelings of goodwill in no time, and all the warmth evaporated. In rest of the world, one only has to travel on a Pakistani passport to find our worth abroad, including the Muslim countries.

The state of our image in other countries is a frequent subject for discussion in the drawing rooms and the media. Antagonistic ambience regarding Pakistan is so wide and has become so pervasive that there must be something very queer and wrong with us as individuals, as a nation, or both, that we have lost respect in spite of our participation in most global activities and seemingly general helpfulness.

Perhaps, the worst that we have administered to ourselves is almost perpetual misrule compounded by widespread corruption and plunder of national assets. Denial of social services leading to poor human resource development has left the nation far behind rest of the world in education, technology and cognition of the pace of change in the world. This has rendered our striving to quickly rise to levels of the developed world - without capability and the means to attain that - extremely awkward and doubtful.

In the context of situation prevailing in Afghanistan, in which we have been sucked in due to our proximity, eagerness to get to the centrestage and gullibility, twenty years back, has landed us in the unenviable position that we find ourselves in. Why did we jump into the fray in Afghanistan in 1980 to fulfill the agenda of a major partner in the Cold War after our experience in 1965 and 71? If replied honestly and dispassionately, the question will yield some embarrassing answers but we better face them. We have been posing ourselves as the bulwarks of the `free` world in its war against communism. To a different audience, we justify Pakistan`s involvement in the anti-Soviet struggle as our duty to help a neighbouring Muslim state in distress. And our present problem in the Afghan debacle is a continuation of that great altruistic deed!

But a minute scrutiny points to a different set of factors which got us into the quagmire called Afghanistan. First, the war against the Russians needed the latest and the most lethal weapons. Pakistan, or anybody else in the region did not have them. And nobody had the money to buy them. United States provided the weapons as well as money to raise and train an army to fight the Soviets. Countries which were conduits for this assistance gathered the spoils and what became available through pilferage. This was a windfall. It is another matter that it left behind a culture of guns, drugs and black money. The budget for war with the Soviet invasion army must have run easily into a few billion dollars. Since the entire action was covert, equipment, weapons and huge amounts of money quietly passed through hundreds of officials. The private sector had to be involved so that official involvement were not made too apparent. This provided ample opportunity for individuals to amass wealth by skimming the funds, stealing weapons and equipment and misappropriation in deals - that was the time when the `Swiss accounts` started emerging as a startling phenomenon in Pakistan. Lots of people wanted the prolongation of atrocities in Afghanistan to extend the period of their windfall. The abrupt withdrawal of Soviet forces in 1989 brought an end to the entire game. But the episode set an example which unleashed some highly disruptive trends in society.

There is no doubt that a large number of combatants in Afghanistan in the 1980s also joined the ranks of anticommunist forces as a religious duty. This, ultimately, crystallised into the Taliban movement. With the establishment of the Taliban government, the jihadis from various Muslim countries made Afghanistan their home. They were more educated and highly motivated young persons who had volunteered to fight the Soviet occupation forces or any other non-Muslim invaders. Mr Osama Bin Laden was one of them. Since he had the money, the management skills and leadership qualities, he organised the ragtag hordes into a semblance of a fighting force. The graduates and senior students from religious schools and outside powers interested in bringing a stable government in Afghanistan cemented the structure which became the government of the Taliban.

During the last one week, all this has become history. But it has made it imperative that we learn some lessons to mend our foreign policy and correct our collective thinking. The changes will have to be harsh and immediate, and in some quarters unpopular. First, we should extricate ourselves out of the quagmire in which we have been sinking for the last twelve years. In Afghanistan, the quick establishment of a friendly Taliban government had us jump in to recognise it and then fighting diplomatic battles on its behalf all over the world. We were in such a hurry to mark our support, that until this day nobody knows who made the decision! What have we got after the decade-long involvement? Again a hostile western border, over three million refugees, slaughter of Pakistanis in Afghanistan some of whom were there for totally non-combat purposes, and a general sense of hatred for Pakistan. We better learn from this debacle and contain our spirit of adventure and trait of gullibility.

Second, we should assess our capabilities realistically and restrain ourselves from interfering in the affairs of Muslims around the world. We should realise that such interference is not always welcomed. Muslims live in different countries, nations, societies, cultures and climates. We cannot appreciate their circumstances fully. Recent history is replete with consequences of such meddling. The Muslim clerics bombarded the Central Asian Republics with Islamic literature, teams of volunteer missionaries and Pan-Islamic zealots. The onslaught served a blow to the natural awakening of Islam after independence from the Soviets. One only wishes that they were left alone to make their own decisions and carve a route for themselves. Foreign intrusion has made these missionaries Pariahs in many of these countries; Pakistanis made the top of the list as they demonstrated other skills as well, which were repugnant to local cultures. We better take a decision as to what were the norms and limits of preaching in other countries and what type of sermonizers should undertake foreign missions.

Pakistan has been thoroughly misguided and grossly double-crossed during the last two weeks. Almost the entire nation has been swept by a sense of distrust in our `allies` and their proteges. But friendly overtures towards Iran have been widely welcomed. This calls for a re-aligning of our foreign policy and deciding upon our friends and enemies, and to establish strong friendships like the one we have with China. There is the need to actively educate people about culture and sensitivities of friends.

Lastly, the basic truth that we should recognise is that the strength of a nation does not lie in its clever foreign policy, aggression, submission or amiability. It dwells in its inner strength, stability, and dependability. Instead of fretting and fuming over what is happening in other parts of the world and obtruding in the affairs of others, we should first consolidate our own strength - reform our attitudes, create a just society, build our economy and improve the lot of the people: Kashmir as our national agenda is enough to command our attention. We should remember that the real robustness of a nation is lent by the quality and will of its people. Only then could we command respect and gain the right of sermonising others and lending a helping hand.



http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2001-daily/22-11-2001/oped/o2.htm

AnNy #78 to jay ``last he was spotted at ratnagiri trivcendrum and banglore all at the same time..be very careful``

Please dont scare jay too much (dil kay mareez haiN, yeh soon kar dil kaa dowraa parh jayay gaa).

hamidm #90 the question to ask is how did thousands (not tens, not hundreds) of jehadis cross over from Pakistan to go and help the talibans make a mess out of Afghanistan. Just as God knows how many jehadis have crossed the border to ``liberate`` Kashmir. Heads must roll within the military if it is to stop f-g with the neighbors.

Shandana,

Interesting, complicated work. I look forward to reading more...

mohajir

Thanks for a honest square look in the mirror. Some really no nonsense points there.

ali

You are branching off into yet even more colorful metaphors...ummm...never mind.

tahmed, anny, scout, stuka, soysauce, sigalph, pm, semiprecious, zafar, rsax, shima, dost-mittar, neptune, rdesi, ali, sadna, hobbyty, zahra (if you are out there), hope you and your famillies are all well

regards

TO PAK APOLOGISTS,

It was the standard line of all pakistanis on chowk, like tahmed, YLH etc that pakistanis are moderates, it is the one percent jihadists who wield the tremendous street power. The very essence of the jihadists, taliban has been slaughtered, nothing, at least that is what the pakistanis are telling, in the streets of pakistan.

That makes it pretty simple to conclude, as hamism has said it is the implicit support of the middle class, the educated that sustains the honour killing, the blasphemy laws and the jihadic madrassas. It is that pervasive insidious evil in the minds of the eduvated, with the jihadists as the excuse for the tahmed of chowk to live out the TNt dream, of attacking and deriving perverse pleasure from it that sustains the above legal systems of discrimination.

tahmed,

Take it easy, anNy is the second generation of the TNT child. All of the young on the chowk, sarwari, YLH anNy etc portends the unavoidability of iraquisation of pakistan as a prerequisite for peace in asia. It took 50 years of pak.org history, 50 years of what hoodboy talks about as the curriculum requirements to produce the well formed TNT children of anNy, sarwari etc. You are the malformed one, who talks of good hindus, read pak.org history.

regards and best wishes to learn from the young

jay

ali1

{Remember the mullah on CNN, ``pehle um pakistan ko tabah karega, phir amreeka ko tabah karega``.}

….and we all know how laughable that turned out to be….just like qazi hussain’s prediction of an islamic revolution sweeping pakistan “very, very soon”…(that was said 2 months ago)…which would be “much greater” than the one in iran….or fazal-ur-rehman’s boasting of leading a jihad of 10,000 men to fight the “infidels” in afghanistan….last i heard he was still in peshwar ordering his men to beat any shopkeepers that opened for business on strike days…..the only mullah that’s actually put his money where his bearded mouth is that sufi mohammad guy…..and he came crawling back to pakistan with his jihadis the day kabul fell to “refresh his troops”….and he’s now rotting in jail…

PAKIS IN AFGH AND HUMAN RIGHTS

Pakistanis in afgh are representatives of foeign power, with the express intension of harming the afghans. They should be treated as enemy forces, and should have a procedure different from that of the locals.

The fools in india, tried the asghar and other pakistanis cought under the laws available to indian citizens and that lead to their release. The idiots of delhi should realise that those laws are not applicanble to foreign forces. Tll the laws are created, the terror of the asghars will continue.