A New Role

Thank for this nice article. Your third choice we are following in Boston area and With the help of God we are doing very well.

Keep it up. The world need the peace and we need to be leader in this process.

Thank You.

MLakhnavi

RE: Reply #: 26 Zehra wrote:

``this article made me sick.
how can you so despotically declare that the clear choice is option number three (educating americans about islam and muslims)?``

I would not go that far Zehra. Wisdom does come with age, and this is the most reasonable path availble.

You added later:

``anyway, it seems really superficial and fake to be all smiling and model minority when some white guy is yelling at you in new jersey for no reason other than the fact that you look a certain way, and you are expected to smile when you would rather tell him where to stick his big fat ugly head.``

Very genuine feeling that we I hope will see in article form on CHOWK soon. We need honest reaction to the events AFTER 9/11 here.

Ras

Zehra-26

Aap phir naazil ho gayeen?Kuch tau sharam karo.

this article made me sick.
how can you so despotically declare that the clear choice is option number three (educating americans about islam and muslims)?

along with handing out candies on eid, little kids should get together and sing to George W at their local mosque, you are my sunshine, my only sunshine. lovely gesture of friendship, honesty and good will.

twenty years ago little desi kids would go to school on eid with mehndi on their hands and tell their classmates what it was all about. been there, done that, why not we move on?

i hate that everytime something `bad` happens muslims around the world think, OK, let`s we be good like the prophet that when people throw garbage on us, we smile and hand out candies. fat lot of good this tactic has done, eh, that nothing has really changed in the last 1500 years.

anyway, it seems really superficial and fake to be all smiling and model minority when some white guy is yelling at you in new jersey for no reason other than the fact that you look a certain way, and you are expected to smile when you would rather tell him where to stick his big fat ugly head.

scout, great reply.
mehdavi, you are scarier than azmat tanauli.

z. rizvi.

Ref ali1 #: 3

[The articles at chowk give one an impression that Diwali is the most important thing happening these days.]

Yes. A billion persons (give or take some of the $200 million Muslims, Christians, Parsis, Jains, Buddhists, Jews, Sikhs, buffalo-worshippers as opposed to cow-worshippers, Taoists, animists, and anybody else you can think of) in India are celebrating it with a big bang, so you might as well come to terms with it.

[Third is the so called mainstream media which lacks the time and inclination to go indepth to the complex issues. The glorification of Northern Allaince is a recent example.]

The fact is, anybody including the Northern Alliance is better than the Taliban. You might as well wake up and smell the coffee instead of smoking the hash that Pak establishment has been feeding you.

[My personal guess is that most muslims will leave or will be forced to leave the country at some point during this long war against terrorism.]

You mean, if we follow what the US is doing, you guys will leave Kashmir?

[Of course this question can be put to the Zionist/Orthodox Jews too who are living in the US, but then some religions are more equal than others and they haven`t blown up any buildings recently.]

Marine Corps barracks, Labanon.

Al-Khobar complex, Saudi Arabia.

World Trade Center, New York.

Buddha statues, Bamiyan, Afghanistan.

These are the spectacular ones. You guys have daily occurrences of similar events in Israel and Kashmir.

Well, at least you can see that blowing up buildings with people inside them is not going to endear you to any civilized human beings. That is a first step.

re: arjun_m # 22

By claiming that you can`t say anything about those Americans who went Afghanistan to kill Americans, you are overlooking a basic problem with the argument.

State and religion are two separate corporate bodies. The state has absolutely no obligation to support any other corporate entity that threatens the existence of the state. Ideally, the state should exist in peaceful coexistence with other relevant coporate bodies - an ideal reached best in democratic setups. That peaceful coexistence is possible if and only if both the state and other corporate bodies clearly and unambiguously eschew all attempts at undermining one another - again, a requirement that can only be met in a democratic setup.

Regards.

Azmat,

per the following report, pakistanis are being arrested for just being pakis, sort of understandable which gives yet another opportunity to educate the others. The arrested pakistanis can behave in a mild manner, not like the pakis in mizar e sherif and got butchered. That could be a good beginning.

Harassment of Pakistanis

One consequence of the September 11 incidents is that Pakistani citizens legally visiting other countries are being harassed to the extreme. And our government, true to its salt, does nothing about it.

In Mali, all the 29 Pakistanis staying there, were arrested simply because they were Pakistanis. Nigeria, too, is rounding up Pakistanis, just because they are Pakistanis (Dawn, Nov 18).

The least that our government could do is to call the representatives of these governments in Islamabad, and tell them that if such uncalled for actions are not stopped immediately, this country would also take similar action against their countrymen in Pakistan.

A.S. NIZAMANI

Kuala Lumpur

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Did some one say ,New Role as educater ?Thats what we havebeen saying ,but PPl. only LISTEN,when they are awakened by ``shocking events`` as 9-11 tragedy.However NOW is a good time than ever was so please pass it on

Islam Misunderstood

Khalid Khan



If language is a mode to express things and communicate with fellow human beings, then perhaps linguistics and lexicons know better how difficult and inadequate they find themselves when they have to translate and understand the meaning of a word from the text to the context, from one language to another, or elicit the implicit meaning from within a word itself into an explicit, distinct, appropriate unambiguous form. The task remains challenging yet never achievable, not because we lack the means and method to do it, but because of the very nature of its usage. Its growth in a given culture and society in which it is used keeps the perennial challenge alive as to how to interpret it in the light of changing circumstances and with the growth and development of society. This very difficulty of interpretation of language, more particularly religious texts, has been the root of all misunderstanding. Not only have the subjective elements of individuals or groups colored their own interests while throwing light on the meaning of the text, but this was and is still being surreptitiously distorted, misinterpreted by the `other` in their race for dominance and superiority and for serving their own interests. It is due to the limitation of human language that, more often than not, the meaning of the religious text has got lost in the encyclopedia of its own school of interpretation. Realizing this paradoxical dilemma of not having a consensus on the meaning of its own text, radical elements within and outside the Semitic religions had zealously and relentlessly tarnished and damaged its counterparts for its own sustenance and existence. It has become the maxim of Semitic religions that “misunderstandings to be followed as a rule with others.” Very often we have seen through history that the basic, inherent tendency of Semitic religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism is to exclude the `other` from itself and by implication it means to attract within its fold as many people as it is possible to maintain its superiority over the others. And to be superior in the material world is to be in control of at least the resources, economy, technology, trade and all other things attached to it that would give to its followers dignity, better living standards and a superior value system. Since there was no uniformity in the process of bringing within its fold new groups of believers, they had to face each other within the same ethnic cultural groups of people like the Arab Muslims and the Arab Christians. Because of the change in their belief systems and religion, they started having more in common and felt alike with those who shared their beliefs and their new religion than with those with whom they had shared ethnically the same world view earlier. This paved the way for more complicated reorganization of people in terms of their religious world views within the Semitic religions, and as such an urgency for adjustment of each other`s interest arose wherever confrontation had to be avoided. This situation arose within the same ethnic groups, where Semitic religion came to take its root together and also where different ethnic groups who were completely under the fold of one Semitic religion had to encounter the other Semitic or non-Semitic religion. So long as there was some internal understanding and balance of interest within the Semitic religion for protecting their own interest either through debate, dialogue or conciliation, we witnessed periods of peace in history. But the day disgruntled elements decided to subvert the balance and attempted to annihilate the `other` or retard the growth of the other, we have umpteen examples in our pages of world history that speak volumes about the destruction and tragedy that both sides had to suffer. So what is happening in the world today is nothing new; it should neither shock nor surprise us. It is the logical extension of the same attitude that has ramified into our political and social ideology. However, only the backdrop has changed. The attitude is colored now with the complicated network of science, technology, economic development, world security, human rights, terrorism, free state, etc., which in its intrinsic sense has nothing to do with religion or religious beliefs, but has its own inherent values and forces that it generates by itself. The western world in general, and America in particular, though finding itself still deep-rooted in its religion and its belief systems, was farsighted and more practical in its approach when it realized that it was impossible to resolve multiple religious aspirations in the light of its own emerging social realities, created by a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic set up, and complicated further by the advancement in science and technology. They relegated religion into the personal sphere of life realizing the practical existential difficulties they would have to resolve if this was not done. But applying religious meaning would be suicidal to these new realities. This is not because the values adhered to within religions cannot explain the modern phenomena, but because of the diverse opinions within itself about -- what is religion? What is the value attached to it? Whether religion should regulate our total life? Do all religions have something universal, etc. These are so vexatious and complicated that anybody and everybody could use God or Allah as a pretext for justification of his personal or collective deeds or misdeeds. We are all civilized and cultured during times of peace when we are in total control of our interest and when there is no immediate threat to the same, but in a crisis, our rationality takes a back seat. Instinctively human beings try to incite a sense of arousal in their surroundings to generate a mass support, identifying their personal problems with the sympathy of the overwhelming collective. Rationalizing, justifying cannot arouse this common excitement. Even if it does, we have seen that the impact is miniscule because of the difference of opinion that it always creates in the process of arriving at any understanding. And the limitation of people or groups that would react would always depend on the level of education and the political or social ideology they subscribe to. As such human emotion becomes the most potential victim of vested interest groups and radical elements in Semitic religions. And if the subject matter to which emotions would be directed is divinity, then history is a witness as to how “rationality” has been time and again imprisoned or brutally murdered for revealing the misdeeds of rulers, administrators, powerful nations who had taken religion for a terrible ride, when their economic crises had to be averted, political justifications were to be given and when lust for power and dominance were driving them to hell. Why equate Islam with terrorism then? It is a fact that Islam has been misused by elements within itself for furthering their own interests. But this is also true with the vested interests in all the religions. The danger in equating Islam with terrorism would amount to committing a serious mistake. This is because Islam is geographically and politically distributed throughout the globe and amounts to one third of the global population and the aggrieved elements happen to be within the Islamic countries. These aggrieved elements are reacting to the incapability and complacency of their own respective governments to protest against the Western military and economic dominance over their land and oil. It is this peculiar situation that all Islamic countries are unable to face. The growing dissenting voices within these countries actually fuel small connected groups of people who find it easy to identify with each other in religious terms to fight against the western dominance. The fact that even Islamic countries have joined the world forces against these isolated groups proves that even they want world peace. The real issue involved here is the vast disparity between the techno-haves and the have-nots, between monopolization and self-assertions, between nuclear powers and non nuclear powers, between extra-territorial domination and no territory and between the exploiter and the exploited. How do we manage our natural resources that are unequally distributed in diverse geographical locations? How do we reach the benefit of scientific knowledge to the remotest parts of our society? How do we bridge our ideological differences and economic inequalities? There is no denying the fact that our social scientists, environmentalists, economists, NGOs and other social bodies are working extremely hard in understanding and giving practical shape and direction to resolve this. If left unaddressed and unresolved, this will sooner or later destroy our social and economic structure and chaos would be imminent. No religion, ethics, morality or values can save us then. We will have to be doomed to live in a perennial state of insecurity, dread, poverty exploitation, terrorism and deprivation. Terrorism in any form is bad. The pulse of terrorism lies deep rooted in our society. It is created out of inequality and deprivation. The motivating force of terrorism is mutually generated by the perpetrator and the victim. This drives the aggrieved sections of the society to resort to all possible means to fight against the powerful aggressor by any means. But, the moment we start justifying any act of violence, we know it opens up a plethora of questions along with it. Why is there terrorism? Who should define terrorism? What type of terrorism we talking about? Is the society itself responsible for creating it? What is the remedy? There are diverse opinions among intellectuals and they are yet to arrive on any common understanding about it. But they do agree that the issue is about people, technology, agencies, radical elements and vested groups who have capabilities to generate terror cutting across all man-made boundaries. The medium to transmit this terror can be religion, culture, technology, and ideology. As such it is a human problem, an issue of our society which involves the security of our nation. And we all know that human beings are as diverse as the universe itself. The society in which we are living and the world that is emerging is made up of a cross section of people, culture and values. And our nation itself is a fragile man-made entity, where its general health depends upon how every section contributes to adjusting and balancing its respective interests, irrespective of its own religious, cultural and ethnic background. So it would be suicidal on the part of any aware individuals or groups who know that they are living in the multi cultural, religious and multi ethnic society, where progressive mindsets and radical elements play hide and seek every now and then, to generalize any act of violence in terms of religion, ethnicity and culture on any particular group of people. Scientific attitude towards life itself has brought out a class of people in every society. These people, irrespective of their religious or cultural background, participate and identify themselves with each other more zealously than with their own ethnic or religious counterparts. As such this progressive group of people will have to play a vital role in reforming their own society. Our society has made great sacrifices in reaching a state where it maintains a delicate balance between the progressive mindset and the radical elements. No irrational mind should be allowed to disturb this balance. This again is because we don`t have a choice. If we want to live peacefully and if we aspire for progress and development then balancing the needs and aspirations of our society is a necessity and not something which we can luxuriously afford to discuss and desire. It is this balancing of interests that is relevant in maintaining global peace in terms of resources, technology and information. The accountability question lies more on the western world and America in particular because they are at the vanguard of all the scientific, technological advancement in the world today. Have they been maintaining the balance of interest in the world today? Certainly not! Do they have the moral strength and character to admit to the duality of their foreign policy? And have we ever objected to that? No, we were complacent! Will they be civilized enough to admit that they had their share in the creation of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban to neutralize the Russian factor during the Cold War. Certainly they must be regretting it now. Should the price for being opportunist, indifferent and complacent to rights, justice, deprivation and forced occupation be so colossal that thousands of lives of innocent civilians had to be taken in the most horrifying manner to wake up the conscience of humanity that under the garb of Globalization and Free World something wrong was being seriously committed? Certainly not!

atanauli,

I do agree with you that the good deeds of the muslims are not being reported in the us. It is all the talk about a few bad ones who flew a plane into a building, the millions who did not fly the plane are forgotten, and the muslims have to correct this. See thw basic problem is no one knows who is a muslim. The public intutives assume that good ones are no-muslims. All the muslims of the US should grow long beards.

The same with women, they should be in the burqas. This will solve the identification problem.

Those with greying beard can pass of as year round santas, that would take the pi//ss out of the christians, who have santas only once a year. Others not gifted with grey beards can sit in the malls, hide candies in beards and ask the children to find it. That could be great fun.

May be the women can dress up, as madonna, benazir, cindy cawfod, nicole kidman etc, then put on the burqas and the children can guess who is inside. These are just a few ideas to put your original brain waves into more practical terms.

May be even the chowk can have a contest to find ideas to present the true nature of islam to the americans.

regards and best wishes for more of these ideas.

jay

An Eclectic, Artistic and Uniquely South Asian Community

http://www.masalamag.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=showArticleNew&article_id=4192&ss=mmn

sameerjb

``Muslims have a choice to become radical activists, ready to sacrifice everything for religion or keeping religion to individual level without trying ghettoized mentality of exclusiveness.``

....... the problem, sameer mian, is that you are fighting a lost battle - it is impossible to compete with an ideology which is unrepentant in its claim that it is a complete way of life encomapssing everything from personal hygiene to economic theory ......unlike das kapital, god himself has ensured the authenticity of das book .........

Azmat,

I agree completely with you. It is time for the muslims to come out and show that they are muslims. They should keep long beards and then hand over candies during eid. This will confuse the hell out of children, osama s handing out candies, and that would be funny.

It would be doulble funn if the women come out in burqas and had out candies, it would be `guess who is inside`` game, again it could be man or woman inside. All these funny aspects of islam has to be popularised in the US.

Azmat, you are a genious to have thought of this, as though what the folowers of asama have done is not public and popular enough.

regards and best wishes for more no brain ideas.

jay

Tanauli Sahib: America is a free society where any person or group of people can sell, educate or preach with the help of propaganda and marketing. Here people will sell sodium carbonate as oxy-clean, educate about UFO`s and preach about Jehovah`s Witness to lord-knows-what. A sincerely best of luck with your project through ING, ISNA, MSA or whatever.

As an American, myself or another person might ask few questions, though. Assuming, you believe that Islam is actually a good religion, if not the best: what can it do for Americans? How are Americans (or the West) left out of its goodness that people from Morroco to Indonesia are blessed with? Anything besides less fatalities due to drunk driving?

West is all about materialism. Islam is almost all about taking care of afterlife. If Islam had anything better to offer in terms of materialism, West would have adopted those practices without ING or ISNA long ago. If riba-free banking or sharia or fiqah or praying five times a day or fasting had any material benefits; they would have adopted it with or without giving credit to Islam. They adopted Averroes, Aveccina or al-Razi because it benefited them. Sure if you teach Islam according to Al-Kindi or Al-Rawandi, even atheist might be attracted - but will you? If you educate Americans about interest-free banking, some knowledgeable American might ask about the importance of banking during Islamic Empires? Bait-ul-Maal concept is different than banking. Sole purpose of Islamic Central Bank (bait-ul-maal) was to collect zakat and other taxes and spent it according to the will of the rulers. They were not in the business of lending money to make money. Islamic bank played insignificant role in the lives of people and Western Banks are powerhouses touching the life of eacha nd every one directly or indirectly.

So what has Islam to offer to the West? Oil, sure. It was a useless black goo until West found ways to utilize it, mostly for producing energy. What role did Islam or Muslims play to make black goo to black gold?

So what kind of education about Islam you have in mind that is attractive or acceptable to Americans? A more respectable role of women in the society? Can you prove it? All Muslim countries have more children per women than their neighboring countries. All Muslim countries have lower literacy level for women than men and lower than their neighbors. All Muslim countries have lower ratio of women in work force than their neighboring non-Muslim countries even with similar GNP.

I guess there is no point to discuss treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim countries because some Americans might accept it and use it against American Muslims. I disagree with your three options about American Muslims. As I said early on, West loves innovation, materialism, cheap labor and cheap raw material. Those Muslims who contribute to the society should not have to fear anything. The brain drain from Muslim as well as non-Muslims will continue, just like cheap Chinese labor, Arabian oil and African minerals. Those who do not fit well, will be marginalized without US government taking any step. Muslims have a choice to become radical activists, ready to sacrifice everything for religion or keeping religion to individual level without trying ghettoized mentality of exclusiveness.

The articles at chowk give one an impression that Diwali is the most important thing happening these days.]

You can say that Again

In india its 1 week past (14thnov.)but Nri havent had enough of it that coming week end is still deevali .Guess when you have the Green `Bucks` 50+ times the grey ,torn,stained with rickshawpullers stain RUPPEES,you can have Deevali everyday .

AS the Indian philosophy goes

``sab se BARA Ruppiyah`` or am i wrong

A very informative article.

As far as I am concerned, read the Quran, the Bible, the Torah, the Mein Kampf and the Satanic Verses and decide for yourself...

A better approach would be let the Americans learn about Islam instead of preaching it to them...

Ciao

Good article BUT we must also make sure that the people who educate others about Islam are actually teaching and not preaching. Muslims have a tendency of veering towards preaching unfortunately.

The second point I`d like to make is about alienation. Many Islamic groups alienate those Muslims who might not follow Islam by the book, who might not pray five times a day, or keep all days of fasting, etc.

Religion is a very personal matter and we all follow it differently. Muslims need to understand these differences and not fall victim to passing judgements over others.

Muslims as a whole need to be more united and supportive of each other, much in the way the Jews are united in America. If there is any religious role model that we could follow, it is the Jewish role model.

Whether they are Persian Jews or European Jews, they stick together. Whether they eat kosher or not, they still support each other. Power lies in a united group, and this is the most important lesson Muslims need to learn.

Mr. Azmat Tanauli:

Congratulations on the excellent article which is

desperately needed and is short and sweet.

First let me mention something I read in the newsletter of Pakistan News Service Vol. 11 No. 325 11/22/01:

Eight Pakistani Americans are being sent as ``goodwill ambassadors`` to their native land Pakistan in a bid to explain religious tolerance in the U.S in what is being seen as a unique public relations blitz.

I think that this action is very appropriate under

the circumstances. Only those who have information first hand are competent to tell

the stories they have heard from the ``victims`` or

possibly they themselves have experienced ``victimization`` as a result of the tragic events of Sept. 11.

From my experience during 40 years in North America (I am glad that I am out now), I find that

most people in that part of the world are either

ignorant of religions other than their own or they

just do not care. We have an obligation to our

religion ISLAM to tell non-believers about it.

Of course there is no compulsion in our religion.

Once I told my students that they are free to discuss anything whenever they get fed up with the

SUBJECT (I am not mentioning here). They took up

on my offer and started discussing ISLAM. They

claimed that the reason they consider JESUS as God

is that he was born without a father. When I asked

them why they do not consider ADAM as God as he

had neither father nor mother, I heard some of them say ``Prof has a point``.

There is no reason for us to be ashamed of our

religion. In fact we should be proud of it. We should try to explain to non-believers that what

happened on Sept. 11 is against our religion.

Our religion teaches us to respect other religions

and let me mention one HADIS here that strengthens

this teaching. Once some christians came to see

Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)and he welcomed them as

guests in his mosque MASJID-E-NABVI and allowed

them to pray there as per their religion.

I have learned so much from the articles and the

interacts on Chowk. Chowk can be a great place to

visit if only the editors or moderators edit or

moderate the interacts to make them free from personal dislikes.

Regards

``A smile in the grocery line, sweets given to a teacher on Eid, a positive attitude and honesty at work -- all of these can in little ways help to counter the enormous amount of prejudice and misinformation we are facing.``

I agree on the positive attitude and honesty at work. I dont think there is an ``enormous amount of prejudice and misinformation we are facing``. The US people have in general, from the president down, have been very warm-hearted in their efforts to make the muslims feel at ease. Better to say thank you for this, than to keep harping about prejudice that does not exist.

Fuzair #80: I believe you are relying too much on heresay. Which is something I have noticed about people when they comment on the military in general (in most countries, infact).

There were two bomber squadrons in the PAF in 65. The same two flew in 71. One of the squadron commanders, in both wars, is the father of a very close friend of mine. As I stated, I have gone through all the log books, biographies, flight records and have discussed both wars with all these people myself, in great detail. They were in the planes flying them. And I have no reason to believe they would lie to me.

``Now, only air forces that have air superiority engage in large scale ground support operations``

I do not understand this. Are you suggesting, that aircraft only provide close air support, after they have air superiority? There is no way the PAF could establish air superiority against the IAF considering the fact that the IAF is double to quadruple its size. Yet, I know a lot of people who died providing ground support during Pakistan`s wars. The only Air Force I know that has been able to establish air superiority is USA and Israel, against their adversaries. Infact the only thing the PAF trains for is counterair (point defence) against attackers, and ground attacks to support the Army, or against runways etc. And all of these are desgined to be carried out with escort fighters, knowing fully well that their will be enemy aircraft everywhere. The PAF doesn`t even have an aircraft (like the F-15 etc.) designed specifically to establish air superiority. It is designed basically to protect Pakistan against Indian attacks, not to attack India.

It is useless to get into a statistics game, since each group, country etc. will present its own statistics. You may be interested to find out that in 65, most of bombers lost were due to friendly fire and crashes on returning after attacks. Does that indicate anything specific? Depends on the circumstances. One cannot draw any conclusions from it, just by reading it.

As I stated, the PAF is a support group. How do I know? Well because that is what I was trained to do, when I was in it. The overall strategy of Pakistan is decided by the Army. If you look at all the joint training institutes (NDC etc.) invariably the top guy is from the Army. The CJCS used to always be from the Army. The PAF is, infact more of an air arm of the Army than anything else. There is absolutely no strategic aspect to it any more. And there never really was one, to begin with.

``Let the Navy fight its own battles.``

This sounds too gossipy to be true. More like the lines from a Punjabi movie. I know the person who was the Chief during 71, and I will try to get an email response, from the people who were actually participating in that war.

There are certain squadron(s) in the PAF (and in any air force) who are trained day and night just to fly in support of the Navy. The missile systems and tactics are all in support of the Navy. Where else would they be utilized apart from supporting the Navy? The PAF cannot on its own just start sending its aircraft to bomb areas, without coordination with the Army and Navy. As I stated, it is a support tactical arm, not a strategic arm (like the USAF). If it wasn`t supporting the Navy, then it is supporting the Army, or defending its airbases. What other task does it have? Did the pilots just refuse to fly in 71, and did the AVMs refuse to form strategy in 71. It was the exact same people as in 65. Why would they fight in 65 and not in 71?

You can argue that the strategy made was poor, but that is dictated by what the Army needs are. If the Army gets into a war it cannot win, the PAF can only support it with air cover. Like I stated, it is for all practical purposes a tactical group, in which a couple of pilots test their skills against other pilots, in support of other branches of the military. At best, it could plan an independent attack to target a nuclear reactor, etc. Other than that, it does what the Army (or Navy) needs it for.

``, the IAF`s logistics, planning capability, etc, the stuff one really needs to fight a modern war, are miles ahead of the PAF`s.``

The IAF`s logistics is its biggest problem. It is a huge problem. The Indian Air Force generals themselves have commented on the logistic problems, due to the civilian beaurecracy, in great detail. Please read Brian Cloughley`s reviews.

``In India, successive governments, encouraged by defence civilian bureaucrats, who stay longer in their positions than either service officers or government ministers (and play one off against the other), have tended to look at new aircraft and ignore in-service types, with the result that the IAF is not in the best overall shape, in spite of all the efforts of its high-quality leadership......`` (Cloughley, http://paknews.com/articles/1999/feb/art1feb-10.html)

Take a look at the flight safety and maintenance record of the IAF to see the effects of this civilian interference into logistics.

I think one of the strongest factors of the PAF is its operational logistics, and procurement. Look at every single system the PAF has incorporated; they are all successful. Infact, the IAF has only now switched to the French and Western systems. The PAF builds its complete aircrafts as hybrids of French, British, US and Chinese technology. Pakistan cannot put together a computer, yet the PAF can put together, and now even design, military jets. If logistics was such a problem, then the PAF would have a terrible flight safety record. Yet it has an excellent flight safety record. For F-16s, it was the best in the world, for a decade.

As for planning, it is generally accepted, at least in the Army, the Indian generals are quite a bit more competent. In the Air Force, its hard to tell, since both Air Forces (specially the PAF) have all strategic decisions decided by the Army. The Army says we will attack here, the PAF planes go and support it, or bomb the bridges etc.

``Far too many of the PAF`s ``heroes`` spend more time figuring out how to get seconded to some Arab Air Force, transferred to PIA, get a cushy job in the Shaheen Foundation, or make sure that the Meena Bazaar goes off perfectly so the Mrs. Chief will be happy, then they do in figuring out how to beat the IAF.``

Once again, this is emotional heresay. I am not quite sure what one can say to argue against such a point, since it is merely a personal opinion. During the 60s and 70s, PAF was one of the best jobs in Pakistan. No one wanted to join PIA, and I believe there was no Shaheen Foundation. As for postings to Arab countries, they are allocated in order of merit of graduation from the Academy.

If you look at all the people who have become Chiefs, you will notice that nearly every single one of them graduated in the top two positions of his class in the Academy, thirty years ago. If you look at the AVMs, they will be top graduates also. If what you say is true, all these people should be in Dubai, and PIA. Only the ones at the bottom of the class left for PIA etc.

Today it is a different story. Primarily due to finances. If people can make more money as a secratary in a bank, than as an F-16 pilot, then obviously they would not join the military. And the biggest problem is that, those at the top of the class leave early to join the private sector or move to North America. I was about at the top of my class, and I am sitting here in the USA. This is true for the US military and Indian military also. In India, Air Force is not the top choice for individuals, and there have been huge problems with salaries for pilots, engineers etc. Salaries are low, so people eventually leave in both IAF and PAF. It is their choice. If someone is in Dubai or PIA or USA or Air India, that does not mean they were incompetent when they were in the military. And during the 60-70 era, this wasn`t even a problem for the PAF.

``I`ve even heard of an officer`s wife, an Air Commodore to be, asking Begum Shamim to have her husband`s name pulled from the approved list and send him to Libya as a Group Captain since that was the rank slot for Libya then!``

It is quite possible this is true, or it maybe false. It doesn`t make any difference. I know of a President who had oral sex with an intern, old enough to be his daughter. Does that mean the whole US political system is filled with sex-crazed lunatics? Once again, this is all individual cases of heresay (some true, some false).

``Sorry Romair, takes a heck of a lot more than hyper-aggressive testosterone freaks to make a force ``professional.``

I have not met any hyper-aggressive testorone freaks in my life. So I don`t know how to spot them. So I am not sure what your point is. In small tactical Air Forces like the PAF, it is really all the peacetime logistics, training, etc. that goes into creating a well oiled fighter pilot and plane that decides the fate of air combat. The operational planning is also tactical mostly, i.e if the Army asks us to bomb the adjacent bridge, how do we do it. If the Navy needs to attack the Aircraft carrier, how do we do it. It is not like the bombing campaigns the US carries out, which are all based on Air Force. The strategic decisions are all under the Army command. Even in those decisions, the PAF is nearly completely a point defense counterair force (F-7Ps, F-16s) and a close air support force for Army (F-16, A-5) with some recon (Mirage), some medium level interdiction (F-16, Mirage) and some air to ground tactical attack (A-5). The operataional decsions are generally made for it by the joint command led by Army to satisfy the Army (and to a much smaller extent the Navy). The PAF just concentrates on carrying out the tasks tactically. Can you name any strategic aspects of the PAF? Does it have any medium or long range bombers? Does it have any pure air superiroity fighters?

There are a lot of problems with the PAF. You have not highlighted most of them, however. It is still very strong operationally (at least everywhere I saw). This includes training, logistics, flight safety, acquistions etc. The biggest, and really only, problem is the low salaries, due to which people are either not joining, or leaving at the first opportunity. Unlike the Pakistan Army, which has other problems, like politically ambitious generals, poor academic standards of officers at all ranks, poor strategic decision making (in many cases based on completely unrelated topics like religious persuasions, Taliban, etc.), heavily oversttafed General Staff (PAF has this also), alongwith the low salary for the officers.

Bravo, Sir!

Allah Hafiz

Carpe Diem

Azmat`s right. We need to break our silence and come out now. What is unpronounced tends to nonexistence. By remaining wrapped up in our own private lives we run the risk of increasing that terrible polarisation between Islam and the rest of the world. The consequences of that ignorance we have already seen in the riots and the bigotry and the hatred (``kill a Muslim for Christmas``, on the London Underground).

If you know nothing about a people you`ll believe anything about them. Now is the time to learn, to teach and educate with wisdom and beautiful words.

Thank you for the excellent piece. And a genuinely worthy purpose for all Muslims in present circumstances. In attempting to explain Islam to others or simply to understand intellectual trends within the vast universe of Islam, not just non-Muslims but very many Muslims may come to rediscover the essence of Islam.

A positive, healthy attitude will do more than anything else to counter misperceptions.

Thanks Chowk for this very timely article. Addresses an important issue facing American muslims today. [The articles at chowk give one an impression that Diwali is the most important thing happening these days.]

I have attended ING seminars and I found them effective and informative. However, I don`t think that these presentations are enough in the wake of 911. I see a three pronged information challenge confronting the muslims. One is the patriot/conservative radio talk-show/press circuit which produces a lot of vitriolic rhetoric and in my view represents the current mood in the US ``street``. Second is the think tank circuit which is trying to frame the war against terrorism in terms that are both broad and vague in order to encompass their own baises and agendas. Third is the so called mainstream media which lacks the time and inclination to go indepth to the complex issues. The glorification of Northern Allaince is a recent example.

The future of American muslims will also depend on the shape that this war takes and hence is largely out of their hands. What happens when US attacks Iraq? How will US react to Lebanon that has refused to recognize Hizbollah as a terrorist organization? What happens if God forbid Al-Qaeda or another terrorist organization launches more attacks against the US? These are things beyond the control of US muslims but might impact/decide their future in this country. My personal guess is that most muslims will leave or will be forced to leave the country at some point during this long war against terrorism.

Finally, I have a question for the Islamists among the US muslims. No one has to respond, just ask yourselves in your heart. Is your first allegiance with the US or with Islam? If it is with Islam then why should the US or anyother nation state let you live within its boundries as equal citizens. Of course this question can be put to the Zionist/Orthodox Jews too who are living in the US, but then some religions are more equal than others and they haven`t blown up any buildings recently.

Thanks Chowk for this very timely article. Addresses an important issue facing American muslims today. [The articles at chowk give one an impression that Diwali is the most important thing happening these days.]

I have attended ING seminars and I found them effective and informative. However, I don`t think that these presentations are enough in the wake of 911. I see a three pronged information challenge confronting the muslims. One is the patriot/conservative radio talk-show/press circuit which produces a lot of vitriolic rhetoric and in my view represents the current mood in the US ``street``. Second is the think tank circuit which is trying to frame the war against terrorism in terms that are both broad and vague in order to encompass their own baises and agendas. Third is the so called mainstream media which lacks the time and inclination to go indepth to the complex issues. The glorification of Northern Allaince is a recent example.

The future of American muslims will also depend on the shape that this war takes and hence is largely out of their hands. What happens when US attacks Iraq? How will US react to Lebanon that has refused to recognize Hizbollah as a terrorist organization? What happens if God forbid Al-Qaeda or another terrorist organization launches more attacks against the US? These are things beyond the control of US muslims but might impact/decide their future in this country. My personal guess is that most muslims will leave or will be forced to leave the country at some point during this long war against terrorism.

Finally, I have a question for the Islamists among the US muslims. No one has to respond, just ask yourselves in your heart. Is your first allegiance with the US or with Islam? If it is with Islam then why should the US or anyother nation state let you live within its boundries as equal citizens. Of course this question can be put to the Zionist/Orthodox Jews too who are living in the US, but then some religions are more equal than others and they haven`t blown up any buildings recently.

Welcome to Chowk Azmat,

Good observations and suggestions here.

This is no time for American Muslims to hide.

It is time that we heard from that once endangered species called the Progressive Muslim.

Ras