The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism

Zafar #376 ``Can I quote you?`` You honor me too much Zafar sahib! With such encouragement I shall keep posting my deep thoughts on chowk ;-).

AMNESTY FOR MULLA OMAR IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

Who the hell is Mr. Charitable Hamid Karzai -- a ``paaNchwey sawar? -- to bestow ``Amnesty`` on that CRIMINAL Mullah.

Ask yourself, Karzai -- did Abdul Haque get ``AMNESTY``?

Karzai`s would have met the same fate -- had it not been for the US to ``extract`` his ass in time.



We did not save Mr. Karzai`s derrier -- for him to start granting ``Royal Pardon`` -- even before his ``coronation``.

Stupid Karzai -- Pushtoon Brotherhood of Murderers INC?

That Mulla must go -- Buddha`s Revenge -- blasted to ``heavens`` by a self propelled rocket.

Re: Tahmed321

Thank you. The appreciation is mutual. If people like you represented both India and Pakistan, I do not think that the hostility would last longer than the time one needs to shake hands.

Re: audio-video-radio #378

``...Today is the anniversary of demolition of Babri Masjid which Hindus turned into Pappri Masjid. It happened nine years ago. Nothing happened...``

Shame on you for celebrating an event which hurt the sentiments of many. You are no different from those Palestinians who were joyously celebrating the destruction of WTC on 9/11

Re: Farzana Versey #342

``...If you are an ‘opinion-maker’, why are you expected to merely relay the news? ...``

I do not have a Masters degree in journalism from Columbia University. Therefore, my opinion is just that -- my opinion. I think that a journalist in the role of an opinion-maker needs to come clean with full disclosure, about their personal biases, opinions, etc. Since this is almost impossible and undesirable in normal newsreporting, newspapers separate `news` from `Opinion/Editorial` columns. So, when I open a newspaper and read `news`, I do not expect the reporter to add information beyond what is based strictly on observations. I am not interested in the reporter`s personal opinions. And, if the reporter is introducing personal biases without letting me know, then I would be getting deceived without even knowing it. However, when I read the Op/Ed columns, I know what I am getting and would not mind reading a personal opinion or two.

re: stuka

``RSax has been rejected in the bars and lounges of NYC so many times that he has to go Sweden to find love ;) Kyon Bhai Sax??``

...yup, sad isn`t it?...unless you`re willing to settle for some beasties...actually, there is a lot of that bottle blonde garbage in nyc...prefer the real thing :)

``What happened to your invite to me and YLH for a bar crawl in NYC??``

..ylh is threatening to come dressed as jinnah...

re: ylh

``I agree, however the point I was making was that

You have repeatedly called Pakistan`s nationhood as stupid, outdated and medieval, which may or may not be true. Would you say the same about Israel because whereas in Pakistani nationhood religion was just one of the factors with self determination in muslim majority areas playing an important part, whereas Israel is almost wholly based on a religious concept of having a zionist state (an ideal I am not too averse too considering the circumstances).``

...now you`re changing topics...anyway, i see no comparison between israel and pakistan...for one thing, israel has been an extremely succesful democracy...it respects individual liberties...the constitution does not have separate voting mechanisms for religious minorities...unlike the ``Islamic Republic of Pakistan,`` it doesn`t call itself the ``Jewish Republic of Israel``...there is no more proof of this than israel`s economic success and, barring jihadi terrorism, and relatively stable society...pakistan is completely the opposite of all these things...

ylh

…all kudos to you for having the stamina to enter a 2+ word conversation with a mullah….

YLH,

I saw your posts regading the MA Jinnah. If you are open to interacting intellectually about Jinnah, I can provide you with a lot of insight. Jinnah was not who he is cracked out to be in Pakistan. This has nothing to do with his vodka guzzling habit.

There were other Muslim leaders of much greater vision.

Let me tell you some facts about Jinnah

-He was a profound supporter of Hindu Muslim unity and did a volte face when he realized his popular appeal and charisma could never match that of his dashing Kashmiri Brahmin rival, Nehru or of his other rival, the scholarly Mowlana.

-He never gave a single Ruppee to charity or the poor. He refused to visit the poor or sick. He treated his personal staff with cruely and brutality, such that many of them suffered nervous breakdowns. His personal cook, Syed Imtiaz Ahmad Khan Dehlvi, refused to go to Pakistan, and wept at the memory of Jinnah`s cruelty.

-He was a Racist and referred to the Bengali Muslims as ``black dogs``.

-He despised the Sunni Religion. In a speech in Mahmudabad, he said ``It is the Shia faith which is the essence and soul of Islam as a religion. I believe the Sunni faith to be grounded in Arabian superstition and bigotry. Shiism is Persian in its soul:philosophical, profound. Sunnism is Arabian in its soul: dogmatic, superstitious, and bound by tribal law. It is in the destiny of Indian Islam that Sunnis will eventually turn to Shiism for spiritual nourishment``.

-He secretly thought Pakistan would not survive.He is reported to have told Matloob Husain, his secretary, ``Pakistan will pass like a dream. It will last only as long as I do. The old areas will once again be called by their age old name, Hindustan``.

Dr Poonawala

MBBS, MD

Jammu, India.

ATTEN ALL CHOWKIEZ...

This is regarding the phenomenon I call HamidMania...

I must admit at first his antics were ``cute.`` An elder intellectual with an alcohol fetish and a sadistic impulse to make all opponents instantly decompose.

But people, have you no shame? This is getting ridiculous. He`s like the lion in the jungle toying with his prey.

We all know hobby can take up to 12,000 words to say ``my stomach is hairy`` (hobbs Im kidding!) and Urstruly is the personification of Coles` Law (intellectual capacity of raw cabbage...)

But come on, this endless sharade is becoming absurd. What would aliens think if they were monitoring our InterActs? ``Farangi is no older then 10.... Drumz is an idiot....Hamid is something of a God to them...``

Why can not one of you stand up to this hamid character? Is everyone afraid? Surely he is not that great. Look at this example...

This was from a hilarious post beginning with ``help! prof hobbs is at it again ...``

Okay, agreed, I have no clue what inna hell

hobby was saying, (inshallah it will all be explained in jannat), BUT, this strikes no one as odd...

``....well, i must say that i am overwhelmed by the exuberance of the professor`s verbosity .....if this is not an attempt at wicked and pedantic sophistry to obfuscate......can someone explain this in plain english``

Do the math people, Someone who`s just said...

1. ``exuberance``

2. ``Verbosity``

3. ``pedantic``

4. ``Sophistry``

...in five lines has NO right to demand anything in ``plain english.``

I would address his massacring of the elipsis, but it seems that all members of the intelligentia at chowk do such.

(I am somewhat drunk right now, please excuse the grammer).

harpreet:

``Or that time you got stung by a bee as a two year old.``

okay now HOW do you know about THAT? i`m quite sure i didnt mention it here

;0)

``take care and good luck with exams!``

thankyou sweetie..i kikedsomemajorasss

With the final nail in the coffin of Taliban, it is prudent to revisit the civilizations’ issues in the light of Taliban experience. In the general description of any civilization, a core exists where the best of that particular civilization is to be found. At the core, the practices of that particular civilization come close to its original form. From there on, it is like ripple, which is influenced more at the periphery than at the center due to the low wave energies at the periphery. Civilizations appear, reappear, disappear and merge more easily at the periphery. Some civilizations are local, some universal, some hegemonic, and some parasitic. During most of the human history, civilizations were tightly linked to territories and ideologies until recently when economic factor has become dominate.

What is generally considered Islamic civilization was really the extension of Arab civilization at its zenith. It lasted 3-4 centuries and then declined. The majority of Indians as well as Indonesians, being away from periphery were nominal Muslims with strong affinity to their own cultures. However, due to the religion of Arabs at the zenith of their civilization, to the delight of Islamists and pan-Islamists, the bulk of Muslims felt special bondage on the basis of religion vis-à-vis colonial masters. The belief in the superiority of their religion and literal exegesis fortified their belief. Loaded with the delusions of grandeur and superstitious confidence in invulnerability due to their dogma, it became rigid with respect to moral and ethical values with no place for rationality, objective thinking, pragmatism and economic well being. Moreover, it transcended the standard ripple effect and could be planted (as strongly as the core) by Mehdi Sudani , Syed Ahmed Barelvi and recently by Taliban at the periphery. The moveable core has produced extreme disorderliness in this haphazard approach to make Islamic civilization reappear.

In Pakistan, Islamists hope to achieve a replica of Taliban style core of Islamic civilization while moderate Muslims do understand the differences of past tribal Arabic nature of values system and current values system backed by the centuries of natural evolution of values. It would be too artificial to impose a set of codes borrowed from tribal Arabic history in any name. Pakistanis are not a homogeneous group when it comes to defining their civilization. It varies from person to person depending on strength of belief and animosity towards India.

Civilizations do not appear overnight resulting from an election in 1946 on separate electorate basis. If that be the case, then Britain should be responsible and respected for allowing divorce from Hindus and flowering of cusp civilization among Muslims of sub-continent ending up in Pakistan. There would have been no cusp-n-divorce had British allowed partition beyond two. The Muslim majority provinces have little interest in ML or Congress. Punjabis voted the way they have been voting ever since - based on their tribal affiliation and relationships with local feudal class. Jinnah and Nehru never enjoyed the popularity of Muslims and Hindus respectively of Punjab as well as Sindh as decisively as they did in UP and Bihar. Punjabis and Sindhis were not keen about divorcing; they just wanted to live without marrying to other groups. The politician knew that Punjabis are not divorcing easily, so ML and Congress leadership made sure that divorce is violent.

There are, however, defining moments in civilizations’ sense. From the birth of Pakistan to present, much has changed. It has to do with the passing away of almost whole generation who had any memories of past. Pakistani media and education have done excellent job of creating, elaborating and propelling the differences between Islamic and Hindu civilizations. They have successfully created the image of Hindu civilization based on Brahmanism with no mention of remaining religious and cultural aspects of Indian Civilization. Similarly they successfully hid all the dirt of Islamic empires, religion and civilization under the rug. That is why there is no serious voice for promotion of the language of 80 million Punjabis – a unique case in the world over. They could name anything anywhere with Abdali, Ghaznavi Ghauri or Faisalabad with impunity and not even 100 people objected. The things have started to turn around little bit, thanks to Diaspora experience of Punjabis and access to information, knowledge and entertainment on print and electronic media freely. The cultural bond is beginning to transcend the political boundaries. This amount, in civilizations’ terms, a return to native or Indian civilization. The proportion of nativeness, declining for the last 54 years and sharply for the last 25 years, is beginning to assert itself once again. A divorce of Punjabiat from Kashmiri politics, as in my case, accelerates the trend of cementing cultural bonds. Most of the religion, being superstitious, can be sacrificed at the altar of culture and civilization.

DRUMZ

What it is! - I`ve been reading you and Prem on the other board - What have you read lately? Is the exuberance black beauty induced? exams trauma? - good to read happy smiling faces in thoses posts.

Please comment on the synopsis of Thomas Kuhn`s ``Structure of Scientific Revolutions`` and in the way it relates to the constructs we discussed when we reviewed Sorouch`s work and they way they relate to the ideas Urstruly has offered and the responses to these ideas.

Also please comment on the ``invisibility of Revolutions`` and the seeming, cumulative and linear nature of histories of sciences.

temporal #145 on the verse:

It took the sea an hour one night,

An hour of storm to place

The scuplture of these granite seams

Upon a woman`s face.

Very nice. If the poet had any sense in his head, he would have what to do next:

It took me one minute though

To rid her of her bile,

A rose, a kiss and she let go

Her anger

And came back with a smile.

(You need to be married a few years to learn these little tricks.)

hobbyty #432 ``I have been thinking about a part your post ``

Do you have by chance the post # and the board it is on so I can see what this is about?

shammi #340 We both of course agree that the violence in Kashmir is an evil thing. I also think that hate-posts on chowk (and we have both Indian and Pakistani posters) are an evil thing, since it represents the same kind of thinking. Only difference is that there is nothing much you or I can do about the former other than raise our voice against it when we can, but we can all do something about the latter. You are of course one of the many fine posters on chowk who are free from such hatreds, but even one hate-mongerer on chowk is one too many. If the Chowk Moderator was doing his job, we wouldnt have this problem and we could have more constructive discussions. Right now, jerks like RanaRansher can come and pollute the atmosphere at will.