The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism

RE: Reply #: 264 Romair

``In my opinion, both the Hamas and the Israeli govt. are terrorist organizations. Just like Saddam Hussein and certain parts of the US state dept. are terrorist organizations. As are a few of the militant groups in Kashmir and the Indian govts.` action in Kashmir. If you don`t believe me, ask Amnesty International.``

Romair what about the Govt. of Pakistan and it`s generals who have made it their business to terrorize it`s neighbors Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India and it`s own people ever since it`s inception? It already has more blood on it`s hands than India can accumulate over a hundred years.

Oh, I forgot, Pakistan is now a very important country in charge of important stuff in the fight against terrorism and will soon be the economic miracle of South Asia.

Re: Romair

`` Long live sensible dictatorship. Ten more years of the current govt. and Pakistan will have to start worrying about economic refugees, trying to enter Pakistan from its Eastern borders, to get a better living. Sikhs and South Indians (with IT degrees) should be allowed in; no visas for anyone else :). ``

With a mindset like this - Pakistan is doomed for sure. Growth comes from transparency and accountability and balance of power neither of which is possible in Pakistan given the feudal mentality.... The Army which has looted the country for much of its existence will continue doing the same. Asking for prosperity from an army regime is liking trying to stay a virgin in a bordello.

These sentiments are eeriely familiar when Zia ul Haq ascended on his divine mission.


The pakistanis have more in common withe their Afghan neigbors than they realize... much of current day Pakistan was protected by Marauding tribes by the Afghans for over a thousand years. . The ingrate Pakistanis soon forgot that....much like their Afghans guests....

For the past 3 decades Pakistan had given refuge to the Afghans at the same time reaping the billions that was intended for the poor refugees.... Now the same parochialism is back....Concepts of humainty, veracity and fairness are a foreign concept to our machiavallians.....

With the country teetering on fiscal and moral bankruptcy .... paraochialism is on the rise... - pretty soon like the hazaras and the pashtuns and the uzbeks ... the punjabis and the sindhis and the pashtuns will be fighting one another --- maybe Romair you can create a Khalistan with a capital in Lahore...( then you can invite our Sikh bretheren)

If Islamic civilization is not the binding force ( I am not implying religious fundamentalism).. then Pakistan can be a number of smaller homogenous ethnic states....they will do much better.....

To engender the concepts of fraternity and liberty to a class of people ( the current establishment) who were trained to be ``cannon fodder`` to their english overlords is beyond comprehension. Inculcation of rules of equity and fair-play are alien to the marauding people of Pakistan and Afghanistan....

After 10 additional years of military rule..one can easily deduce Pakistan will be no more .. perhaps for the better... The only reason Pakistan is solvent is because of the nuclear weapons .. Sooner or later the West will wrestle control of the same from the very generals for a few pittiable dollars... and the IMF dollars will stop flowing ....

Subsequently you will find that Pakistan will resemble their neighbors in the Hindu Kush. with an epitaph... that would read ....

``here lies a nation that was built on the blood an tears of so many .. and wasted by the repeated stupidity of so few`` ...

Urstruly may be on to something but the 1+ BIllion muslims are a 1 followed by several zereos... He gives too much credit to the muslim intelligensia - or the hereditary myopia of its intellectual stalwarts....

....john walker was not the only one who bought into this idea :

``So the fundamentalist movement in the Islamic world is not backword looking it is forward looking-it has vision-and determination to be one of the movers and shakers and stop being a cork floating aimlessly on the surface of water.``

....... and who represents this movement now that the one-eyed mullah and his bedouin are on the run ?..... the cuckoo sheikh of al-azhar, the blind sheik of new york, the almost blind mullah of jakarta, the imam of the grand mosque in delhi, the wizard of mansoora, the diesel don of dera ismail khan, cat stevens (what a waste), the sheik of mecca, the mufti of beirut, the grand mullah of isna in indianapolis, hazrat farrakhan .......or is it the learned directors of the institue of policy studies who think we should start every chapter in a science textbook with a relevant ayah from the koran....

....... poor johnny walker - what a shame, and such a venerable name too ......i hope this will be a lesson to all white kids to stay away from mosques and people who call each other ``brother`` .....

shankar #224: ``So I guess youre not going to buy property in Gwadar, huh?:).``

As long as the pipeline gets built, the plans for Gwadar are still on. White sandy beaches, a stone`s throw from the Gulf, and hopefully an Islamabad-like new city. The chances of a pipeline now are more likely, than they were with the Taliban in power.

``Or is it your feeling that the military/ISI was wrong, after all, about this concept of ``strategic depth``?``

I didn`t even know about the strategic depth stuff, until recently. I thought the pipeline was the all and all issue. I have always thought Afghanistan has nothing good to offer Pakistan, and Pakistan has nothing good to offer Afghanistan. Both countries need to stay far far away from each other.

The ISI is not all it is made out to be. It`s influence and power is highly over-rated. Everything from Advani`s stomach ache to Benazir`s incompetence is blamed on the ISI. Secondly, it is under the control of the civilian govt. Even though by design, it was supposed to be under the COAS. However, now the head of the ISI is the only Lt. Gen. who is appointed directly by the Prime Minister. Primarily because each Prime Minister wants to use the ISI to hound his/her opposition party. Nawaz Sharif actually replaced Musharraf as the COAS, with the head of the ISI, who was specifically appointed to that position by NS.

Obviously, Pakistan`s Afghan policy (which was actually initiated through the ISI by Benazir) was a disaster. It was quite obvious from the get-go. Luckily, Pakistan came out of quite well, in the end. In a perverted sort of way, one could argue, Pakistan owes its new found influence in foreign affairs, to the Taliban. Had the Taliban not defended OBL, Pakistan would still be under sanctions. So, maybe this was Pakistan`s real Afghan policy. In that case, it was a huge success for Pakistan. What do you think?

``Countries that the US has helped are usually the ones that criticise the US the most``

This is correct. The US is easily, rightly or wrongly, the most hated nation in the world. At the same time, it is, by far, the most popular destination for immigrants; including the ones who hate it. Some of these guys are on this site. The US, I believe, gives the most aid in the world. It also is involved, directly or indirectly, in killing the most innocent people in the world (UN figures). Quite a paradox.

So the final lesson is: if a country gives a lot of aid and assistance, and welcomes foreigners, but kills (directly or indirectly) a lot of people outside its borders, you will be more hated than a country that gives no aid, and does not welcome foreigners, but does not kill a lot of people outside its borders. Pakistan has been following the former policy in Afghanistan. It is about time it started following the later policy (the same policy should be adapted by the US, in its foreign policy). The only kind of dealings Pakistan should have with Afghanistan are business and financial dealings. Nothing else.

P.S. I am printing and selling the new bumper sticker: ``PM for PM: 2007, Here We Come.`` Translated, Pervez Musharraf for Prime Minister in 2007 (after he is finished being President for five years; which will be after he is done being the dictator for three years). Being a fellow Mushy fan, I can send you one at half price.

Long live sensible dictatorship. Ten more years of the current govt. and Pakistan will have to start worrying about economic refugees, trying to enter Pakistan from its Eastern borders, to get a better living. Sikhs and South Indians (with IT degrees) should be allowed in; no visas for anyone else :).

THE Clash is coming



The current uprise in Israel and Palestine must have the Saudi and Egyptian govts. shaking in their pants. Just when they thought they had survived potential uprisings in their countries, due to the US attack on Afghanistan, they have a new and much larger problem on their hands.

The Israel-Palestine conflict could get out of control. The Hamas will continue its suicide attacks against Israeli civilians, because they feel it is in retaliation to Israeli state terrorism. The Isreali military will continue killing Palestinian civlians, since they feel it is retaliation for killing of their own civilians. Neither party is willing to step back.

If this turns into an all out war, then the Saudi, Egyptian, and Jordanian (70% Jordanians are ethnic Palestinians) public will tell their govts., ``Either you are with us, or you are with them.`` Who uttered similar famous phrases before? What about people, like me, who don`t want to be with either? At the same time, some of the idiots in the US state dept. (who have a habit of declaring war on places they cannot even pronounce) are bent upon attacking Iraq again. Somehow or the other, they feel these attacks will protect American civilians in the future. USA attacking Iraq to defend Kuwait is one thing, but the US attacking Iraq to, ``protect`` itself, is something else, completely.

Meanwhile, there are certain issues that never appear on CNN. How many people knew that Mr. Sharon maybe tried in a Belgium court:

``Amnesty International Urges Investigation of Ariel Sharon

LONDON, UK, 3 October 2001 (AI): A court in Brussels will today (3 October 2001) begin to consider arguments about whether Israel`s Prime Minister Ariel Sharon may be investigated in Belgium for alleged war crimes committed in Lebanon in 1982 while he was Israel`s Minister of Defence.

``Amnesty International welcomes actions taken in accordance with international law to combat impunity,`` said the organization. ``We support the judicial investigation into Ariel Sharon`s responsibility with regard to the Sabra and Shatila massacre.``

(http://www.alhewar.com/amnesty_intl_urges_investigation_of_sharon.htm)

The Palestinians will not be satisfied until the Israeli side is put under the same microscope by the US, as the Palestinian side. Even though, Amnesty International, and the EU to some extent is willing to do this, the US will never do this, since this will be suicide for any US govt.

In my opinion, both the Hamas and the Israeli govt. are terrorist organizations. Just like Saddam Hussein and certain parts of the US state dept. are terrorist organizations. As are a few of the militant groups in Kashmir and the Indian govts.` action in Kashmir. If you don`t believe me, ask Amnesty International. Unfortunately, terrorist organizations generally do not want credible sources like AI bothering them, and poking around in their affairs.

So if there ever was a chance of clash of civilizations (not Islam vs. West, but Arab vs. US/Israel), it is now. Maybe the best thing would be for this bubble to finally explode and for things to get decided, once and for all.

The world would be a much better place, if it listened to Amnesty International.

nasah #333 I think the president`s post can exert significant influence on the government, though.

Quote of the day (from the maker of Segway, the two wheel self-propelled machine that reacts to thoughts rather than pedals and which the sellers hope will be used instead of cars for in-city transport): ``Cars are great for going long distances but it makes no sense at all for people in cities to use a 4,000-lb. piece of metal to haul their 150-lb. asses around town.``

Romair #229 ``secular fanatics`` vs. ``religious fanatics``. I think the examples you provide at the end (Shah Iran for the former, Zia for the latter) are wrong. The examples you provide were neither secular nor religious nor fanatics. Both were basically autocrats using different tactics to stay in power. One sought legitimacy explicitly in Iranian kingships dating to pre-Islamic times. The other (Zia) tried to do the same thing by implicitly promoting the concept of the Divine Right of Kings (and thereby avoiding any proper elections). I am not very familiar with Turkish politics, but I think they have much more democracy and legitimacy than we did under Zia.

shammi #228 Some kind of profiling is always going on - it is easy for a person from a rich country to get a visa (if even that is needed) to another rich country, and it is not easy for a person from a poor country to. The reason of course is because the man from the poor country is more likely to become an illegal worker. The marriage market in South Asia is one big profiling exercise. Companies recruit based on profiling (e.g. a person with a past successful career is more likely to be a better recruit than one with a poor career).

The problem is: How much of a chance is there of a Type I error (where criminals get away since they dont fit the profile) and of a Type II error (where innocent people get caught since they fit the profile)? And what happens in case of a Type I error (i.e. how much damage can the criminal potentially do) and in case of a Type II error (i.e. how much damage can the innocent person potentailly suffer)? If the innocent person could be hanged, then obviously one needs to design a strategy that minimizes Type II errors. If all that is going to happen is the innocent person is going to be body searched or questioned, then obviously a higher rate of Type II errors can be tolerated.

In other words, as you say, profiling is not a simple matter, but also not necessarily one to be rejected in principle.

Note: My coursework in statistics came in handy in the above discussion :-)

ylh #213 ``It seems to me that people like tahmed are just too busy getting their uloo seedha and being on the right side of everyone that they ignore when people throw in names unnecessarily.``

I heard that YLH!!

If poster x (poonawala) writes something incorrect about poster y (you), why does poster y expect poster z (self) to come and correct poster x??

shammi #230 I think Musharaff is under great pressure to crack down on the religious parties. What people outside Pakistan dont realize is, that people within Pakistan are fed up of these religious parties too. Mullahs have by no means been the community leaders (or anything close) in traditional muslim society. Their position has not been that of a brahmin in traditional hindu society, or that of the clergy (the Third Estate, in 18th century Europe, I think) in traditional western society. Only those individuals who have no wealth or earning capacity end up becoming mullahs in Pakistan. Their numbers swelled due to funding provided by Zia in the 1980`s and the false Maudoodi ideology that dragged religion into politics provided the basis for them to try to take over Pakistani society. Put the mullahs back in their place, and not only will that remove a big danger to Pakistani society, but will also help put an end to the civil war in Kashmir. And I think Musharaff realizes that now and reminders from Vajpayee to take religion out of politics and that Pakistan is here to stay (as Vajpayee did in his memorable visit to the Pakistan monument) can only help.

The dastardly act of killing Kashmiri Hindus by Mujahideen murderers -- decides the CHOICE for Indian Kashmir.

Indian and Kashmiri Muslims will see to it that -- JK -- NEVER falls into the jaws of such despicable criminal Jihadi hyenas -- and their sponsors in Pakistan.

Undoubtedly -- THEY ARE the most VICIOUS ENEMIES of Muslims in India.

Yanqui #218 ``Sorry - I only meant illiterate, gay feudal twits living in/off the U.S. `` Too late. The cat is out of the bag and your post is there for all to see. You said the entire sub-continent was corrupt, and nothing you say after that can erase it. As for the filth in the remainder of your post, that is no substitute for anything intelligent, and demonstrates that you are not a mere retard, but a foul-mouthed retard.

Goldsteen #225 Ha! Ha! So you are a professional lawyer you say. I pity your clients since you probably lose every case and end up in jail yourself for contempt of court. As for the filth and hate in your posts, you have provided an excellent demonstration of the kind of individual you are.

Whether Palestine was Turkish or British or Arab or Israeli is irrelevant. What is relevant is there were people living there for generations who are now in refugee camps in Gaza, West Bank, Jordan and Tunisians. Whether you want to call these people Palestinians, Arabs, Jordanians, Iraelis or Martians is not the point. The point is they live lousy lives, displaced by the creation of the state of Israel.

To argue that Israel is a democracy is to argue that China is a democracy because the Communist Party of China has party elections. Israel today has effective control over 9 million people. Of these 9 million people, about 5 million are Jewish, 1 million are Palestinian Israelis, 4 million are West Bank & Gaza Palestinians.

The army and the organs of the Israeli state protect the Jewish character of the state, making Israel a democracy for about 5 million of the 9 million people it controls. (By the way, 1 million of these 5 million were Jewish immigrants from the Soviet Union in the 1980s - why they have rights over displaced people from 1948 Israel who live in shanty towns in Gaza escapes me). This is a very strange democracy. Barely 50% of the people control the other 50%.

The only workable solution is either a 2 state formula or, if you are a dreamer like me, a single state as a secular confederation of Israel & Palestine - a multi-religious, multi-ethnic state with rights for Jews, Muslims & Christians alike.

And I agree with Mr. Poonawala, please do not bucket India with Israel - our historical processes are different and our visions for the future are different. I do not like the lazy associations of Kashmir and Palestine by many people. Its apples and oranges. The only people who lump the two together are people who just jump up shouting ``Muslim, Muslim, Islam, Islam`` for any issues that involve Muslims. This is narrow minded thinking which comes from people who may be pro-Muslim or anti-Muslim but are still group thinkers. They are not necessarily pro-individual rights which is the only way to be.

sadna # 231

i know exactly what u are saying here...when i red these comics (even now) no feelings of hate for hinduism or revulsion at what is a starkly differing and (excuseme) somewhat comical mythology and religion came up....theyre lovely comics that everyone should read