The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism

Harpreet: Yup, the chipher was invented in india, but dont tell anyone else. To be real, there is no book as deep at the bhagavad gita-in all of spirituality. The Quran IMO is like a chapter from that book. The only thing which compares is Metu Netr out of egypt. Whats the skunk? And along with being a kaffir, im also a dalit, heathen and weed head.

Shammi: I got the first few lines but ima need a translator for the rest, lol.

Hamzad: You got me reflecting a bit. If I can change my answer, i believe that all paths are the same. There isnt any easier one. We all do whats easier for us. For example, I have no where near the amount of discipline needed to pray 5 times everyday. Anyone who does so is quite advanced.

The universe doesnt like delineation though the sufis stand out. They aim to go against their own nature which requires the strictest of wisdom and discipline. Very few in the world can do such.

Rsaxena, tsk tsk ...

`...the analogy to Pakistan`s creation is not the creation of Israel...the analogy would be if American Jews decided they did not want to be a part of America`s multi-religious fabric and wanted their own Jewish state carved out of America...`

I dont think anyone will consider your opinion very much Mr.Saxena because the Zionists clearly put the creation of Pakistan as a precedent. Indeed Jacob Robinson, the famous emissary of the Zionists wrote the memorandum in 1947 ``Partition of India: Implications for Palestine``, Central Zionist Archives (Jerusalem) S25/9029.

In any event I am afraid that is a wrong analogy which is easily exposed by one reading of the US`s history. Perhaps you are greatly lacking in this field, and this exposes your credible `Ivy` League education.The analogy that would be more fair is that instead of joining the federation of the United states, New York would have gone its separate way as was envisaged by George Clinton for a very long time. Indeed, Patrick Henry the famous founding father was opposed vehemently to one Union calling for all thirteens states to be independent. Quite the contrary Pakistan didn`t separate from an Independent free India but was a successor authority along with the Government of the Dominion of India from a colonial power which had brought about an unnatural union of hitherto geographical and social expression.

`Palestine` was a British ideal of having one state with two peoples, Jews and Muslims, living in one secular democratic state. Ben Gureon the brilliant leader of the jews opted for a separate Jewish state. Similarly `United India` was a fantastic idea, idealistic no doubt but not realistic..

Nevertheless, the hypocrisy in your suggestion is that it is better if a people were imported to a land claimed by them through a religious book and then they kicked off the original people ... than a people in an unnatural union such as `India` exercise their right of self determination and become a majority state of their own.

It seems to me Mr.Saxena your biases and hatred are on the count of five things..

1) Your ignorance of the History of Israel and Zionism.

2) Your narrowminded Indian perspective of the creation of Pakistan.

3) Your ignorance of the History of the United States.

4) Your unwillingness to accept that you are not equipped with the proper knowledge to make sweeping generalizations and horrible simplifications of History.

5) Your arrogance, pride and an inaccurate self estimate.

Sincerely

Yasser Latif Hamdani

To the genius who wrote the following

` Pakistan’s misfortunes are its own creation. Formed on the basis of a theory whose fatuity was

exposed in 1971, it never evolved into a modern State whose indispensable ingredient is democracy.`

I was unaware that Bangladesh is now part of India. Thanks for informing me of this vital fact.

Pakistan was formed as a westminister style democracy and indeed should exist as one and that more than anything else has been the cause of Pakistan`s dismemberment. Bangladesh`s parting of ways exposes the weakness of civil bureaucracy and Military alliance to hold the country together separated by 1000 miles.

Indeed Pakistan`s basic foundation, the Lahore Resolution, spoke of two not one state! and Jinnah had agreed to two states but it was Nehru who had feared `Balkanization` of India. Nehru`s daughter created an another myth : The TNT has been undone she said ... TNT which was an imagined concept like all Nationalisms has been undone... this myth has been given its due in the events of last 30 years especially with the victory of Khaleda Zia over the Indo-Phile Haseena Wajid. Too bad great statesmen and women like Nehru and Indira were spent so many years undoing an imagined concept that was undone with the creation of Pakistan itself. tsk tsk ... poor souls...

Maybe the genius will now take time out to explain why and how TNT has been exposed, and why is it that the `Bi-National` and `two state` theory of Israel seems to be thriving even... The difference as the genius will point out is stable democracy. So I pray to Pakistanis to strengthen the hands of their government in pursuit of democracy and an egalitarian system of Government which does not discriminate on the basis of religion caste or creed... Undoubtedly we are a Nation which is predominatly Muslim and Islam occupies an important place in Pakistani cultural discourse but the Nation-state itself can only be a secular democracy and by secular I mean equal rights for all regardless of religion caste or creed.

Yehuda Goldsteen----#470

Thanks for your research & clarification about BM.Now please tell me if you also know Mr.Mohal in Tel Aviv.His profession is also his last name--he registered it that way.I met him near the Jaffa gate last march.Is his practice still flourishing near Mount of Olives or the hadassas have started interfering to the extent that the Sabras are the only chosen ones now---Mohal or not.

Your contributions & learning you acquired at the Yeshiva could be invaluable on this forum.Leave Pakis & Muslims to their own destiny,they are really not your equal or worth.Please share your knowledge about what Abba Eban wrote about jews in muslim Spain & Maimonides.

shankar #64: ``Nobody is gloating that innocent civilians died.``

I don`t agree with this. Please take a look at the replies from Indians on this board. Hardly, any Indian has condemned this outright, without trying to gain a political advantage related to Kashmir. Kind of like, well you guys deserved it. You have yourself stated, ``So, yes, the chickens DO come home to roost.`` The reason this has taken place is because Pakistan is supporting USA. Otherwise the only terrorism in Pakistan historically has been due to Shia-Sunni situation. Al-Qaeda never did anything in Pakistan. So which chickens are you talking about. And the attack was directed towards a US building, not towards Pakistan.

``Whether the victims were Pakistani citizens, American soldiers, Pakistani soldiers, or Indian soldiers...doesnt make a difference..it would be sad.``

Yes. And this is the point I try to get across to Indians, i.e. if Indians are going to talk about terrorism, they need to first and foremost talk about terrorism in Kashmir being commited by India. 99% of the terrorism deaths in South Asia are in Kashmir by Indian forces. Unfortunately, Indians never give this any press. Two prominent APHC leaders have been put in jail by India, but no Indian cares. Indians are just worried about protecting their beloved Kashmiris from cross-border terrorism.

India wants cross-border support to stop so that it can thoroughly cleanse the Kashmiris and completely subjugate them.

The only point ever highlighted by Indians are the few terrorist cases in Kashmir, in which non-Kashmiri Indian civilians are killed. And even in those, India refuses to allow an investigation, therefore we do not know whether India itself arranged them.

Talk to the Kashmiris and you will discover that they consider the Indian forces to be the terrorists and generally support the infiltrators coming in from Pakistan. If these infiltrators were carrying out all the terrorism, the Kashmiris would hate them and hate Pakistan. Yet the Kashmiris hate the Indian forces. So who is committing the terrorism. What difference does it make what Vajpayee says. Talk directly to the Kashmiris.

Based on this, I always make it a point to highlight that all forms of terrorism should be condemned. Unfortunately, Indians never seem to mention that being carried out by, ``Indian soldiers.``

There is definitely a double standard. Now India is bent upon propogating the falsity that it is not India but others who are terrorists in Kashmir.

That is why it sickens me when Indians try to act like they are concerned about terrorism being carried out in Kashmir, as if India is concerned about Kashmiris (while simultaneously killing them). Why would Indians be concerned about the deaths of Kashmiris in IOK, when India itself is killing most of them?

Can you really state with a straight face that Indians are worried about Kashmiri civilian lives? Damned if you do, damned if don`t if one is a Kashmiri in IOK. Indians will kill Kashmiris and then will try to act like they are protecting Kashmiris from, ``cross border terrorism.`` It is the people crossing the border who are actually protecting the Kashmiris against Indian govt.`s terrorism. That is what the Kashmiris will tell you. Why else do you think India doesn`t allow the Kashmiri voice to be heard? Why is it that Indians from Bombay do all the talking about who is killing the Kashmiris?

Has any India (other than you) ever criticised India`s forces killing the Kashmiris. Obviously not. So I don`t agree with you that Indians feel, ``sad`` about terrorism. They actually support it in Kashmir. India generally uses terrorism in South Asia to hide its own oppression in Kashmir. And that is exactly what Indians on this board have done.

Pakistanis have generally condemned terrorism in Kashmir and India and Pakistan. They only support the attacks on the Indian forces in Kashmir, which is not terrorism according the Amnesty International (regardless of what Advani or Bush say). It is also not terrorism according to the Kashmiris themselves.

I hope you now understand my point. If Indians want to condemn terrorism, lets hear them condemning their govts. terrorism in Kashmir, which causes not 10 but tens of thousans of deaths. Once I see that, I will believe your statement.

``So you understand why when Kashmiri militants (whether homegrown or imported) pull stunts like this in IOK``

Please talk to the Kashmiris in IOK to find out who is pulling the stunts. They will tell you it is the Indian govt. and military that they hate. They actually support most of the militants.

``Heck, there are tons of Pakistanis who are members of the Al-Qeeda network--or at least Al-Qeeda sympathisers``

This is ridiculous. Al-Qaeda is a Saudi and Egyptian organization. It targets the USA. Pakistanis have nothing against the USA. I am not sure where you have come up with the figure of tons of Pakistanis. Can you name a few Pakistanis who have been caught through Al-Qaeda?

If there are tons of Pakistanis supporting Al-Qaeda, then why the hell is Al-Qaeda targeting Pakistan. It should be supporting Pakistan.

You need to lay off the international propoganda, and stop using US foreign policy, and George Bush as you benchmark for human rights. The US only has political concerns. If it needs Pakistan, Pakistan will be an angel. If it needs India, India will be an angel. I would suggest you rely of what the human rights organizations say.

P.S. If nothing else, I would like to at least request you (if no other Indian will listen) to stop trying to become a spokesperson for Kashmiris, and the terrorism being carried out agaisnt them by Pakistan. They don`t need you as a spokesperson. It is sickening and condescending for Indian`s to try to attempt to highlight the plight of the Kashmiris, when the Indians themselves are killing them.

If you are concerned about terrorism in Kashmir, then please try to put pressure on the Indian govt. to allow an investigation by human rights organizations in Kashmir, to see who is actually committing the terrorism.

From Dawn: ``They said the women drivers, who were still learning driving at a training school, drove their cars slow and remained to the extreme left. Those, who planted the bomb, either were following the car or waiting for it at the Frere Garden. As the car reached near the US Consulate, they pressed the button of a remote device exploding the bomb, which was so powerful that it blew the car into pieces.

The criminals did have access to the driving school and used the car for the terrorist activity. The women riders never knew about the presence of the bomb.``

The bas!rds killed these women in cold blood, along with other innocent people.

Humsab #466 ``Pakistan has never been in deeper trouble.`` I think Pakistan has never been in better shape: the military government, even after Zia was gone, was afraid of the mullahs and their supposed street power. The mullahs have been exposed to be empty vessels in the past couple of months, and their street power has proven to be a myth - they promised a million men on the streets, and could not bring out more than a few thousand madrassah students. The key mullah generals have been weeded out. Gen. Hamid Gul is exposed as a paper tiger. Will Musharaff use this opportunity to give a death blow to the evil of Islamism in Pakistan? Will he try once and for all to fix fences with India? And continue steadily on the march to democracy where he has already taken a historical step by breaking the back of the bureaucracy at the district level and introducing local self governments? Watch out for the next exciting episodes over the next 12 months.

Re: DRUMZ

``...When people confuse the ocean (allah) for the stream (islam), they consider the stream as being absolute...``

Check out this bhakti song:

Allah tero naam, ishwar tero naam

Sabko sanmati dey bhagwan...

O saare jag ke rakhwaale

Nirbal (weak) ko bal (strength) dene waaley...

http://www.bhaktisangeet.com/popup/playbox_main_frame.cfm?d_bhajans/filmi/filmipart2/&allahtero.rm

Hamzad: Yes, i definately had some very wise, secular parents. They encouraged me to find my own way. Man theres not much else I can say other then we all have a long way to go.

Salam.

DRUMZ:

I thought only non-Mussulmaan were Kaffirs? Oh well, join the club, I suppose.

:)

[Mathematics is perhaps the only factual basis for understanding Allah. Look at the zero. Is it not absolute? Its undefinable yet no mathematical equation would work without it.}

Mate, you have really put your foot in it now. Zero was invented by (shhhhh), the Hindus!

Have you been on the skunk?

:)

Burnt by Islamic bigotry

Amulya Ganguli



Pakistan has never been in deeper trouble. Even at the time of its break-up in 1971, China offered moral support and the US sent its warships into the Bay of Bengal to frighten India.

Today, China is as concerned about Pakistani support for Islamic terrorism in Xinjiang as India is about the same menace in Kashmir, while the US is keeping a wary eye on Islamabad’s nuclear arsenal.

A basic cause of Pakistan’s predicament, in 1971 and 2001, is the absence of democracy. It is no surprise that in both these years, a military dictator has been in charge in Islamabad. While Yahya Khan considered it absurd to hand over power in 1971 to a Bengali from the then East Pakistan simply because he won an election, Musharraf had convinced himself that he would have his name written in golden letters in history books by grabbing Kashmir to compensate for the loss of East Pakistan.

To be fair, the idea is not his alone.

Ever since another dictator, Zia-ul Haq, encouraged Islamic fundamentalism to consolidate his hold on power, successive Pakistani leaders, including civilians like Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, went along with the idea of using religion to prise Kashmir away from India. But it was Musharraf who decided (behind Nawaz Sharif’s back?) to take the proxy war to its logical conclusion by virtually launching a formal war in Kargil.

During the process of encouraging the jehadi enterprise in Kashmir, the Pakistani establishment was evidently taking a huge risk so far as their own country was concerned since zealotry was bound to raise its ugly head in Pakistan as well.

That there was a faint realisation of the danger posed by the growing clout of the bigots was evident from the ban imposed on extremist Sunni and Shia outfits in Pakistan and the stern lecture given by Musharraf to a gathering of clerics about how the Muslim world was falling behind the other countries in many respects.

But if Musharraf nevertheless believed that his government’s policy was a ‘correct’ one towards the Taliban, as he said in a BBC interview, it was because he presumed that any damage which Pakistani society might suffer because of the Taliban’s extremist influence would be more than made up by the acquisition of Kashmir.

But the best-laid plans can go awry.

In any event, Musharraf’s Kargil misadventure probably showed that he had realised that time for grabbing Kashmir was running out.

As always, a Pakistani military junta had underestimated India’s resilience, as any ‘strong and silent’ dictatorship does when dealing with a noisy democracy. Besides, Islamabad was also becoming aware of the fact that the rest of the world was waking up to the threat of Islamic militancy. The remarks of President Clinton during his visit to India showed that the US had taken note of Pakistan’s involvement in the insurgency in Kashmir.

Even then, Musharraf might have continued with his ‘correct’ policy towards the Taliban but for the fact that each country, even an Afghanistan functioning in close liaison with Pakistan, will have its own agenda.

In this case, the Taliban’s guest, Osama bin Laden, had his own axe to grind. He may not have been averse to the jehad in Kashmir, Chechnya and elsewhere. But the US was the bee in his bonnet. However, his game plan did not suit Pakistan.

The latter was interested in the jehadi campaign only in Kashmir. But Islamabad did not adequately take into account how the spread of Islamic terrorism will undermine its endeavours in the Indian province also.

So, when Osama, the loose cannon, and his host, the Taliban, upset Pakistan’s plans by taking on the Big Satan himself, Pakistan was wrong-footed in a manner it clearly did not anticipate. As a result, what was a ‘correct’ policy of sustaining the Taliban till September 10 became its opposite the next day.

The somersault has landed Pakistan in a quandary. In a way, its present travails are worse than what happened in 1971. The loss of its eastern wing was perhaps a blessing in disguise. It was an artificial arrangement anyway, whose structural flaws date even further back than the anti-Urdu agitations of 1952 in East Pakistan, which are widely regarded as marking the beginning of the rift.

However, as Sir Malcolm Hailey, Governor of UP, noted way back in 1925: “They (Punjabi Muslims) see that they can never have quite the same interests as Muslims in the provinces with large Hindu majorities and they seriously think of breaking away from the

All India Muslim League and starting a Federation of their own. This will seek to embrace the Punjab, parts of UP, the North-West Frontier, Baluchistan and Sind... this in itself is only a preparation for a larger Federation which shall embrace Afghanistan and perhaps Persia.

“You will notice that the dream of the future... does not include Bengal. For the moment, the northern Indian Moslem has given up his co-religionist in Bengal as hopeless...”

Commenting on this passage, David Page writes in the Prelude to Partition that “twenty years before the creation of Pakistan and forty-five years before the creation of Bangladesh, these were prophetic insights”.

But even if the distance between the north-western and eastern parts of the subcontinent is vast, Pakistan might not have disintegrated if it was a democracy. Only a military junta could have thought of crushing the uprising in East Pakistan by the sheer use of force. Similarly, only a dictator could have sought to use Islamic terrorism in a bid to acquire Kashmir.

True, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif pursued virtually the same line. But, first, they inherited the policy from an earlier dictator. Secondly, the army and the ISI were probably not totally under their control. And, thirdly, Nawaz Sharif did remove the aggressive Gauhar Ayub from the foreign ministry and showed signs of moderation in Lahore.

But, more than anything else, a civilian ruler might have shown greater awareness of the threat posed to Pakistani society by the fires of fundamentalism.

Three decades after the loss of its eastern wing, Pakistan has lost its ‘strategic depth’ in the west also. Even a neutral government in Kabul, let alone an India-friendly one, will be a cause for Pakistan’s despair.

The reason will have less to do with Pakistan’s vulnerability than with the collapse of its entire Kashmir policy.

All its puppets — Hurriyat, Hizb-ul Mujahideen, Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, Jaish-e-Mohammed — will realise that the revulsion against terrorism will rule out their modus operandi — mindless acts of violence.

Pakistan’s misfortunes are its own creation. Formed on the basis of a theory whose fatuity was exposed in 1971, it never evolved into a modern State whose indispensable ingredient is democracy.

The country has been ill-served by its leaders — the tinpot dictators and venal politicians. It has been ill-served by its friends as well —- the US and China, the latter helping it with its nuclear programme and the former turning a blind eye to its misdemeanours. Such coddling convinced Pakistan that it could use the Taliban to harass India.

But it only hurt itself.

Yehuda Goldsteen----458:

You are a welcome addition to this forum.

Some folks here are accusing you of being incognito & under camaflouge,that you really are Baharatya Musulmaan.Maybe maybe not.Ignore them!

Now you might be interested to know that Bharatyaa Musulmaan is really a haraami,kind of like a b-astard,in english.You need not worry you are not him.You instead are a proud Israeli,the natural offspring of the Gentile & the Jew--an accomplishment which few can claim.

It is entirely possible that the harami BM still visits here to counter this allegations about his pedigree but be assured he is no threat to your identity.Please continue the noble performance of frothing at the mouth and spewing hatred about those who are a thorn in your conscience---it is great catharisis.It always happens to those who use something not theirs but take it without the owners permission.

As you are daily experiencing your present is glowing & your future is bright(hot).

DRUMZ---461(?)

You seem to be a phenomenon & make me kind of envious when I think that you are only 21.Now please don`t let this go to your head because nothing could be so unfriendly as this unabashed adulation.

You must have had the privilege of a great headstart--family & mentoring etc.I am all the more happy for you.Please give some hints if you feel like.

Ibn Arabi took the route you are taking.Full of pitfalls & perils but with huge reward & compensation for it.This route is not for the weak of heart,mind,& faith.Few have come out intact....but then it is Allah who bestows such gifts upon even a fewer number.

re: semipreciousme

``...lol...don`t shoot the messenger...and you wouldn`t happen to know a certain yahuda goldsteen, now would you....and how is bm`s book coming along?...i recall..er..``him``....mentioning smt to the effect...:)``

i wish i knew mr. goldsteen, but unfortunately i don`t...as for mr. bm, i thought we were buds, but he hasn`t been responding to my e-mails lately...hehe

btw, with our knicks coach gone now, your think mr. jordan would like the job? :)

Harpreet: I take great pride in being a kaffir. Its one my greatest achievements. Now if I could only get a Fatwa, that would make my day!

Semi: I politely disagree, he always talks like that, unless Im missing something..

Hobby: Well, other fields of knowledge clearly cannot go beyond a certain point. There are somethings we cannot know. Science simply explains what the first thing was and what it did. It cannot explain how/why it happened (big bang). This gives common folk the idea that science actually knows something when it doesnt.

Mathematics is perhaps the only factual basis for understanding Allah. Look at the zero. Is it not absolute? Its undefinable yet no mathematical equation would work without it. Then there is pi or infiniti...

I was at a mosque today and a brother like you was talking about how Muslims need to reaffirm their iman. I disagree. Religion is not the most important thing in both life and spirituality. When people confuse the ocean (allah) for the stream (islam), they consider the stream as being absolute. Thus they must preserve it, bla bla. I think there are far more pressing issues out there then Islam (i think muhammed would agree also, lol). When someone is shot, u dont read him the kilma. Your priorities change.

We need to concentrate on the betterment of humanity, not islamia. but, if one wants to do the latter only, he needs to know what is important to the muslim world. Not some ancient little verse! Many of us live in poverty stricken countries. Mother teresa and gandhi were likely the greatest Muslims of the last century. Not shariarti or whomever is the new guiding light.

America is not going anywhere. It will continue to inflict genocide on the masses for years to come. We need to begin concentrating on within. Why are muslims so quick to blame the jews/americans and never their own currupt politicians. Muslims have killed more muslims then america ever has. Trust that.

Religion is a movement, if it cannot change then its simply nationalization (arab in the case of islam) or more accurately, slavery. People bind themselves to tradition cuz they see mecca as some kind of eden. It is not, they were primitive people. The guidance of primitive people doesnt apply to US.

Im kinda like hamid. Ive decided to spend the next 15 years to find out who i am not. After then ill try to accept some sort of ideology.

God bless you hobby, an enlightened muslim is a needle in a haystack.

re: rage #451

...genius, in case your a$$ dun realize it, there are no jews reading that stuff...