The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism

warpster #445 Thanks for the humor break. The onion is one of the funniest websites on the internet.

Rage #451 Please dont fall to the level of Goldsteen. There are a couple of percent of sick and bloodthirsty individuals like him in every society, and as such we should not consider such individuals as representing anyone other than themselves.

Rdesikan #15: Do you think RAW could have organized this attack?

I would be interested in your reasons on why it could or couldn`t have.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for Indians to worry about the terrorist attacks in India, and let Pakistan worry about those in Pakistan.

Currently, the general Indian thought process is that any terrorist attack in India is Pakistan`s fault, and any terrorist attack in Pakistan is Pakistan`s fault also. Does this make sense?

Either every attack in India is Pakistan`s fault, and every attack in Pakistan is India`s fault, or each attack within each country is its own fault.

I would suggest joint international investigations into all such terrorist attacks, before placing blame. I am not quite sure how Indians know, without proof, that every attack in India is Pakistan`s fault, as is every attack in Pakistan.

Could Pakistan make a statement that this attack was organized by RAW (I hope it doesn`t). But how would that be any different than India always making a statement that every attack in India is organized by the ISI?

RSaxena:

``..hey, i`m forwarding this to bharatiya musalman...he won`t like you dissing him like that...and i don`t like it either...that`s it, no more friendly discourse with you ;)``

...lol...don`t shoot the messenger...and you wouldn`t happen to know a certain yahuda goldsteen, now would you....and how is bm`s book coming along?...i recall..er..``him``....mentioning smt to the effect...:)

Abdullah visit on the cards

Pramit Pal Chaudhuri

New Delhi, December 9

The Foreign Minister of the interim Afghan administration, Abdullah Abdullah, will visit New Delhi on Wednesday. This will be his first official foreign destination since being appointed to the Foreign Ministry.

Abdullah’s visit, closely following Afghan Interior Minister Yunus Qanooni’s arrival here, reflects India’s influence with Kabul, and is a clear signal that Northern Alliance leaders are grateful for India’s support. It also indicates that Alliance leaders are still wary of Pakistan.

Abdullah is scheduled to meet his Indian counterpart, Jaswant Singh, Home Minister L.K. Advani and Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

The Afghan leader will leave India on Friday. He is likely to meet the Prime Minister on Thursday.

Among the issues that are likely to be discussed will be the stability of the new regime. The fact that some warlords like Abdul Rashid Dostum are not going to support it gives this question some urgency.

The role of Afghanistan’s neighbours, especially Pakistan and Iran, which has been supportive of the Alliance but is now wary of the degree of western influence over the new regime in Kabul, will also be discussed.

New Delhi considers Abdullah, who has long been the Northern Alliance’s Foreign Minister, Kabul’s most ardent Indophile. Like Qanooni, Abdullah has close relatives in New Delhi.

Abdullah was one of the closest confidants of the murdered Ahmad Shah Masood and is widely seen as the inheritor of Masood’s legacy.

He played a key role in overcoming the Alliance’s initial distrust of India — a dislike derived from India’s support of the Soviet invasion.

A physician by training and fluent in English, he has impressed Western diplomats as well. Those who have negotiated with Abdullah describe him as frank, straightforward and, unlike many Afghans, careful to promise only what he can deliver.

Like many of the new generation of Afghan leaders, Abdullah is not a prisoner to ethnicity.

His mother is a Kandahari Pashtun and his father a Panjshir valley Tajik.

Qanooni is Tajik but is married to a Pashtun. In fact, Hamid Karzai, the head of the interim Afghan regime, also sees himself as Afghan rather than Pashtun.

Qanooni and Abdullah were crucial in sidelining Tajik leaders like Burhanuddin Rabbani who opposed sharing power with Pashtuns or allowing a multinational presence.(HT)

Re: In defense of trade

Guys,

We need a paradigm shift in our thinking. We seem, on this chowk, to be a benighted lot, always accusing and finding fault with each other. Fortunately, there are some out there who can think clearly now and then. This guy, Kunwar Idris, writing in Dawn (``Relations with India``), argues for a free trade with India as well as with rest of countries in the subcontinent. This is something close to my heart. I feel that a good trade and free mobility between people of 2 countries will solve a lot of problems and will create a groundswell of public opinion in favor of solving the Kashmir issue.

URL: http://www.dawn.com/2001/12/09/op.htm

Excerpts:

``South Asia comprising the old subcontinent, Sri Lanka and Maldives, for its geographical contiguity, vast manpower and variety of landscape constitutes a promising economic block especially for trading commodities and tourism. Taking tourism as an example, if South Asia with its Hindukush and Himalayas, Sunderbans and beaches of Indian ocean, linked by road and rail without travel restrictions, were to get just ten per cent of the world tourism income it would earn 30 billion dollars a year.``

And here is the best part of the article:

``The intractable Kashmir dispute which has defied solution despite the plebiscite resolutions, bilateral negotiations, internal elections and the 12-year long people`s armed uprising supported by Pakistan may also discover a solution in the congenial economic background thus created and save the two countries more wars and huge defence costs.``

In religious defense of such a trade block, the writer goes on to say:

``A South Asian economic bloc should pose no threat to the faith or culture of Pakistan as it will embrace almost half of the world`s umma. The old saints of amity will take care of the new hatreds and animosities. They belong to all faiths of the subcontinent. The prince among them all, Sultanul Hind and cherisher of the poor without distinction, lies buried in India.``

So, i say, let us chart a new course. Let trade and economic policies dictate political issues. As i have remarked earlier, success of economic policies depend upon how successful Pak is in reverting to democracy without army influence.

Sridhar

Re: Urstruly DILEMA NO. 3

Urstruly, wait, there is DILEMA NO. 4 as well.

How come the US govt. is interested in interviewing only Pakistani nuclear weapons scientists and not the Indian ones? Why do newspapers like the NY Times run stories like `Nuclear Experts in Pakistan May Have Links to Al Qaeda`, and not insinuate Indian scientists as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/09/international/asia/09NUKE.html

Salom to you all, JEOPARDY game is going to have a special this year. The winner will get a small discount with lots of interest and APRs on a scholarship to attend a Jewish bank of choice. The categories will be Jews, Jews, Jewish Culture, hypocrisy, double standards, lying and Terrorism. Following are the questions to be asked.

How many Polo sweets have to be on the ground before a Jew will bend down to pick them up?

Which facial feature of an orthodox Jew is designed for two TNT explosive sticks to be shoved into: the mouth or the sideburns?

What do the phrases, ``stingey,`` ``tight fisted,`` ``miserly,`` and ``tighter than a Jewish virgin,`` have in common?

Why do Jewish women shave their scalp hair off and then wear a wig, after they are married

Who in hell would want to marry a Jewish woman?

For that matter, who in the blue hell would want to marry a Jew?

What percentage of Jews would roll over if the Wailing Wall was not present.

How many cents have to be on the ground before a Jew bends down to pick them up.

Stir fry cooking was made in order to cut down on wooden fuel consumption. True or false; was the inventor of such cooking a Jew?

True or false: Jewish noses are large enough to launch rockets.

True or false: Jewish arses are so tight that they have to sh1t through their mouth.

re: semipreciousme

``….yasser, chill….it’s so obvious this baharitya musalman incarnate is trying to get to you…don’t fall hook, line and sinker every time…``

..hey, i`m forwarding this to bharatiya musalman...he won`t like you dissing him like that...and i don`t like it either...that`s it, no more friendly discourse with you ;)

re: ylh

``If hypothetically speaking, Pakistan had developed as a perfect democracy with equal rights to all, will you still object to its creation on the basis of Muslim nationhood and if yes, then do you feel you are being hypocritical?``

...the analogy to Pakistan`s creation is not the creation of Israel...the analogy would be if American Jews decided they did not want to be a part of America`s multi-religious fabric and wanted their own Jewish state carved out of America...

having said that, before you start jumping and hopping, let me assure you once again that i am now glad that pakistan was created and hope to see it even more separated from india...there are enough problems in india, we surely wouldn`t have needed a few hundred million people who can`t even sustain democracy to be a part of india...

Nasah,

I`d gladly be associated with BJP and the Hindu Nationalists then be associated with hypocrites who talk about `secularism` and yet are without any regard for its basic principles. I must say your `ramblings` on the net aren`t any better than the overwhelming majority of your Indian Muslim brethren.

Maybe it hasn`t been clear to you, I prefer to be known as a Pakistani student not a Muslim student, and I dont consider Indian Muslims to be my brethren.

-A Reformist Modernist Democratic `Pakistani` Student.

DILEMA NO. 3

Lets admit it that a myriad of the most draconian laws in the civilized world are have recently been inacted in the US. Some laws such as SEcret Evidence Act and Interim Rule (most recent one) deny the basic human right of due process of law. THe laws under which a specific racial group (people of middle eastern orgin) are being targeted are out right racist. A couple of days ago when John Ashcroft had to defend his case in front of Senate Judicial Committee headed by Senator Leahy (Anthrax fame) the right wing media blamed liberal Leahy & company being unpatriotic etc. Such laws are being enacted with the reason that they are necessary for national security.

On the home front we have a country which calls itself secular and democratic i.e india and have horrible Laws such as Disturbed area act of 1990, due to which 75,000-80,000 Kashmiris have lost their lives, millions have lost the right to a fair trial and due process of law, and have their citizenship rights revoked. The same country has law called TADA and now POTO, which are just a travesty of justice and fairness. The reason in this case is also patriotic and security of nation.

The third case is of Paksitan where laws such as Blasphemy law, and Ahmadia laws under PPC 298 are enacted to maintain order in the society. And to protect the lives and properties of both Ahmadis and Muslims from each other. No one is denied the due process of law-no one`s citizenship rights as minority and majority are revoked-and cases are presented in open courts-all accused are innocent until proven guilty-they have a right to an attorney, both self and court appointed.

The delima in all three cases is that: why first two cases are justified and not the third one.

All are welcome to this debate.

A humor break from www.theonion.com

--

GHAZNI, AFGHANISTAN—Outraged by the recent loosening of dress codes in her country, burqa wearer Uliya Salah condemned fellow Afghani Raheela Asaad Monday for appearing in public wearing an upper-face-revealing chador.

``Just look how she dresses, the bridge of her nose visible for all the world to see,`` said Salah, watching Asaad walk past her in downtown Ghazni. ``Has she no shame?``

Not wanting to risk the chance that a stranger might be forced to hear a woman`s voice, Salah whispered her indignant remarks through the small mesh square in her garment.

``Perhaps one could wear that sort of thing in the deepest recesses of one`s home, where even male family members are not allowed,`` Salah said. ``But doing so in public like that is outrageous. The harlot may as well strip off her veil and reveal her hair to the world.``

As a strict follower of Pashtun traditions, Salah said she finds it laughable that Asaad considers herself to be a devout Muslim.

``[Asaad] is clearly pursuing her darkest passions,`` Salah said. ``Now that the Taliban is no longer here to protect their virtue, many of the women in the city have begun to walk around in shockingly immodest garb, shamelessly wearing next to nothing on their hands.``

Asaad`s garment was not only too revealing, Salah said, but it also bore numerous decorative touches—a mark of the sin of vanity.

``Did you see that small line of embroidery at the border of her veil?`` Salah asked. ``What is next? A series of stripes at the hem of the garment near the ankles? I pray to Allah that I never see the day.``

Salah has been in a near-constant state of outrage since Nov. 13, when the Taliban was ousted from her village. On that day, emboldened by the Northern Alliance victory, hundreds of women threw off their conservative burqas in favor of skimpy, low-cut chadors that exposed portions of their faces.

``It is sinful for a woman to tempt a man by revealing the color of her eyes to him,`` Salah said. ``But the women around here leave nothing to the imagination. The pupil, the iris, the cornea... It`s all right out there in the open for men to ogle.``

Now that dressing less conservatively no longer carries the risk of public whipping, Asaad said she may wear jewelry or Western fashions beneath her chador.

``It is an important part of both my religion and my culture to observe full hajib,`` said Asaad, who has worn traditional garb since she was 13. ``I keep my body covered when in the presence of men. In the mosque, I am careful to keep my eyes lowered at all times. But it would be nice to wear something different once in a while, like a shoe with an attractive but respectful heel.``

Salah was outraged by the notion.

``Only whores of Babylon wear heels!`` Salah said. ``Under the Taliban, it was illegal to wear high heels or any other shoe that produces a sound when walking, because a man must not hear a woman`s footsteps. What is this world coming to?``

Asaad said she is eager to return to her old life, before she was confined to her house and only allowed outside when escorted by a male relative.

``Of course, there are many things women should not do, like watch television or go to dances or read Western fashion magazines,`` Asaad said. ``But I did miss being able to leave the house.``

Asaad said she also hopes to return to school-teaching, which was her occupation before the Taliban forbade women from working.

``I taught math and reading and other subjects to young girls,`` Asaad said. ``I taught them how to read the words of the prophet Mohammed and how to be a devoted follower of Islam.``

Salah questioned Asaad`s claims of devotion to Islam, citing a scandal in which she was involved last year. In May 2000, despite restrictions against women being examined by men, Asaad was caught attempting to see a male physician for treatment of kidney stones. It was only through a large bribe to Taliban officials and a three-month period of seclusion in a neighboring village that she escaped execution.

``It makes me sick to look at women like Raheela Asaad,`` Salah said. ``She deserved no less a punishment than death for her blasphemy.``

Despite the scandal and her liberal interpretation of Islamic law, Asaad said she is not ashamed of her actions.

``I am proud to be a modern woman,`` Asaad said. ``I believe that women should be allowed to attend the university, so long as the school provides a separate area for women to sit in and they do not speak to the instructor before being spoken to. I even think it is acceptable for a young woman to ride a bicycle, provided she is out in the country where no man can view it. This is the 21st century, after all.``

YLH writes to dr. poonawala:

“Gladly and Good riddance. No one can accuse me of speaking on Indian Muslims behalf.

Infact, I find the majority of `Indian Muslim community` as such a scum that I`d rather die than be associated with them in anyway”.(YLH)

Dear YLH:

You’ll be happy to know that you’re not alone – in fact you’re in a small but august company, YLH.

Some of your favorite BJP people, the RSS, the Bajrang dal, the VHP, and the Shive Sena`s -- gentlemen and gentlewomen -- also -- concur with you – they also –- ``find the majority of `Indian Muslim community` as such a scum that they would rather die…”.

Perhaps ``a first rate liar`` dr. poonawala with an impermeable ``thick skull`` -– will ALSO concur with you -– he TOO would surely WISH – you and they – would/should --``rather DIE`` -– ``than be associated with them in anyway``– ``Gladly and Good riddance``.

Now that’s how a balanced and a poised -- a bright and a well bred – a modernist and a reformist – Muslim student from Pakistan -- should address his brethren on this board.

Shaabaash, jeetey raho miaN. Khoda thumeiN mughferat ataa kare.

ylh

#399

….yasser, chill….it’s so obvious this baharitya musalman incarnate is trying to get to you…don’t fall hook, line and sinker every time…