The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism
Urstruly November 30, 2001
#400 Posted by wadera on December 8, 2001 9:59:37 am
Farzana Versey (post 342) ``...The countdown starts now… and don’t you dare back out of this one :)``
I`m a man of my word. Those posts were gems!
I`m a man of my word. Those posts were gems!
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#399 Posted by Prem on December 8, 2001 12:14:08 am
I ran across an article that appears to be provocative, yet well-written. Although the article is long, I want to present it to Chowk readers for two reasons. One, ideas presented in the article, published in August 1999, have some relevance to the topic on this board. Two, it speaks, among other things, to the issue of Hindu-Muslim understanding. Although the article itself is written in an energetic, provocative style, I hope Chowk readers will evaluate its theses dispassionately and see to what extent they make sense (yeah rite!).
Religion of the Jahiliya: Jihadism is Kufr, not Islam
By Sultan Shaheen
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight9908.html
A completely new religion seems to be catching the imagination of many people in Pakistan. Its followers don`t, of course, consider it a new religion. Indeed this religion insists that it is Islam, in fact it calls itself true Islam or real Islam. But it can at best be described as Jihadism as its central belief system is based on a wilful misinterpretation of the Islamic concept of Jihad.
The Pakistan Army is determined to change the very character of Islam, turning it into the pre-Islamic religion of the Jahiliya (Arabia in the Dark Ages). The army had indeed given ample evidence of its anti-Islamic character by reminding us recently of the Battle of Uhud where a woman of Jahiliya, Hinda, had mutilated the dead body of Prophet Mohammad`s uncle, Hazrat Hamza The Prophet had not only forgiven her but had made it a point to forbid the practice in every Muslim gathering thereafter for fear that the Muslims, too, might do something similar in retaliation.
Slowly but surely what appears to be a completely new religion seems to be catching the imagination of many people in Pakistan. Its followers don`t, of course, consider it a new religion. Indeed this religion insists that it is Islam, in fact it calls itself true Islam or real Islam. But it can at best be described as Jihadism as its central belief system is based on a wilful misinterpretation of the Islamic concept of Jihad. It can also be called Talibanism, as the Taliban of Afghanistan, who studied in Pakistani madrassas run by the Jamiat-ul-Ulema, are its most avid practitioners.
By and large, the western- educated liberal Pakistani intelligentsia, as 1 found out during a recent visit, hates this religion and is frightened of it. But as one by one all institutions of governance are succumbing to its growing power and its capacity for evil, they are getting scared to death. Some of them are simply planning to migrate to some non-Muslim majority country. No one is really fighting this malignant force, though some journalists and human rights activists still have the courage at least to express their horror and outrage at grave personal risk.
It is Islamicists, however, who should have been fighting this malignant growth. Some of them indeed are. (One prominent name is that of Maulana Haider Farooq Maudoodi, the son of Jamaat-e-Islami founder Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi). But they don`t have the resources to counter the powerful Jihadist rhetoric backed by vast resources. Muslim masses are by and large ignorant and poor. It is not difficult to either sway them emotionally using Jihadist rhetoric based on Islamic terminology or even to buy them with promises of goodies on earth and in Heaven. What is Jihadism
The basic belief of Jihadism is that all non-Jihadists are kafir and deserve to be killed. As a result, they have so far killed about half a million Muslims in Afghanistan and at least 30,000 Muslims in the Kashmir valley. They have been killing non-Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir recently. But their present target is the Muslims of India. Beginning from the Bombay blasts in 1993, they have made several attempts to provoke massive anti-Muslim violence in the country.
Indeed a prominent ex-militant Kashmiri leader told me just after Zuhr prayers in the Shah Faisal mosque in Islamabad that the first person to attack the Babri masjid on Dec. 6, 1992, was a Jihadist from POK who had joined the VHP some time ago and was part of Shiv Sena-VHP rally along with several of his co-religionists. My informant was also a Jihadist once, but perhaps not completely devoid of the milk of human kindness and thus not a true Jihadist. He retained affections for his wife and kids stranded in the valley and his Hindu and Muslim classmates in Delhi where he had studied up to graduation. He was clearly not happy with the visions of an impending holocaust in India and tried to warn me.
Another warning came to me more recently from a Jihadist on a brief visit to England. 1 met him outside London`s Finsbury Park mosque after the Friday prayers. Exultant after the Pakistani Jihadists had downed two Indian planes in Kargil, he was more direct: ``You Muslims (Indian) are cowards. Rivers of blood will flow in India soon and you will have just two choices: either become a true Muslim (i.e. Jihadist) or perish.`` Revealing future Jihadist plans, he said: ``You are completely devoid of leadership. We will provide you leadership under which you will become true Muslims (i.e. Jihadists).``
It is not some anonymous Jihadists alone who have been giving me these warnings, though they were more forthright than the so-called responsible leaders of this group. Prof. Khursheed Ahmad, vice-president of the Jamaat-e-Islami, Pakistan, for instance, told me in Islamabad recently that Indian Muslims have been shirking their duty on Kashmir and they will have to answer before God on the Day of judgement as to why they did not support the ``Jihad`` in Kashmir. Hurriyat Chairman and Kashmiri Jamaat-e-Islami chief Syed Ali Shah Geelani has, of course, been taunting Indian Muslims regularly for their supposed cowardice on Kashmir.
1 believe Providence would like me to convey these warnings to the nation. Muslims in particular must beware: they should take care not to allow any one to provoke them into any indiscretion, particularly at a time when the country is involved in a bloody fight with the enemy. It must be clearly understood that in the present case, the enemy is not only the enemy of our country but also the enemy of our religion.
The recent bomb blast at New Jalpaiguri railway station may mark the beginning of some sinister Jihadist plan. West Bengal Home Minister Budhadeb Bhattacharjea has held the Jamaat-e-Islami and not the ULFA responsible for the outrage. There are reports that the ULFA may itself be working for the Pakistani military intelligence organisation ISI. Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani, too, has warned of the possibility of a widespread terror campaign. These warnings must be taken seriously.
Prophet is our role model, not Mast Gul
Muslims must remember that they have to consult the Holy Quran for guidance in their day- to-day affairs. The model they are supposed to follow is that of Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) and not destroyers of mosques like Mast Gul. Islam did not allow its followers to pick up a weapon even in their defence for the first thirteen years even though they were facing the worst possible persecution in Mecca. They were ``permitted`` to defend themselves for the first time in Madina when they were facing aggression from Meccans. Had they not defended themselves even then they would have been surely wiped out from the face of the earth, thus sounding the death-knell for the religion of Islam as well. But only a few years later, when the Prophet had become powerful enough to wage a war with Meccans, he chose peace even on terms that were considered humiliating by most of his followers. He signed a peace agreement known as the Treaty of Hudaibiya. And then when he entered Mecca victorious, a year later, facing no resistance, he chose to grant a general amnesty for all, even for those who had mutilated the dead bodies of his close relatives like his maternal uncle Hazrat Harnza.
Mutilation of dead bodies is a mediaeval pre-Islamic practice, a practice Islam came to fight against. Those who perpetrate such acts in this day and age cannot claim to be Muslims. They must give some new name to their Faith. In any case Muslims cannot accept them as their co-religionists.
ALLAH , Compassion or Wrath?
The revelation of Divinity in Islam is specifically described as compassion: Allah is Rahmanir Rahim - the very acme of kindness and compassion.
Then who is a Kafir, unworthy of Allah`s compassion - the kafir who attracts Khuda ka Ghazab, the wrath of Allah?
How do the chosen believers derive the right to visit Allah
Religion of the Jahiliya: Jihadism is Kufr, not Islam
By Sultan Shaheen
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight9908.html
A completely new religion seems to be catching the imagination of many people in Pakistan. Its followers don`t, of course, consider it a new religion. Indeed this religion insists that it is Islam, in fact it calls itself true Islam or real Islam. But it can at best be described as Jihadism as its central belief system is based on a wilful misinterpretation of the Islamic concept of Jihad.
The Pakistan Army is determined to change the very character of Islam, turning it into the pre-Islamic religion of the Jahiliya (Arabia in the Dark Ages). The army had indeed given ample evidence of its anti-Islamic character by reminding us recently of the Battle of Uhud where a woman of Jahiliya, Hinda, had mutilated the dead body of Prophet Mohammad`s uncle, Hazrat Hamza The Prophet had not only forgiven her but had made it a point to forbid the practice in every Muslim gathering thereafter for fear that the Muslims, too, might do something similar in retaliation.
Slowly but surely what appears to be a completely new religion seems to be catching the imagination of many people in Pakistan. Its followers don`t, of course, consider it a new religion. Indeed this religion insists that it is Islam, in fact it calls itself true Islam or real Islam. But it can at best be described as Jihadism as its central belief system is based on a wilful misinterpretation of the Islamic concept of Jihad. It can also be called Talibanism, as the Taliban of Afghanistan, who studied in Pakistani madrassas run by the Jamiat-ul-Ulema, are its most avid practitioners.
By and large, the western- educated liberal Pakistani intelligentsia, as 1 found out during a recent visit, hates this religion and is frightened of it. But as one by one all institutions of governance are succumbing to its growing power and its capacity for evil, they are getting scared to death. Some of them are simply planning to migrate to some non-Muslim majority country. No one is really fighting this malignant force, though some journalists and human rights activists still have the courage at least to express their horror and outrage at grave personal risk.
It is Islamicists, however, who should have been fighting this malignant growth. Some of them indeed are. (One prominent name is that of Maulana Haider Farooq Maudoodi, the son of Jamaat-e-Islami founder Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi). But they don`t have the resources to counter the powerful Jihadist rhetoric backed by vast resources. Muslim masses are by and large ignorant and poor. It is not difficult to either sway them emotionally using Jihadist rhetoric based on Islamic terminology or even to buy them with promises of goodies on earth and in Heaven. What is Jihadism
The basic belief of Jihadism is that all non-Jihadists are kafir and deserve to be killed. As a result, they have so far killed about half a million Muslims in Afghanistan and at least 30,000 Muslims in the Kashmir valley. They have been killing non-Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir recently. But their present target is the Muslims of India. Beginning from the Bombay blasts in 1993, they have made several attempts to provoke massive anti-Muslim violence in the country.
Indeed a prominent ex-militant Kashmiri leader told me just after Zuhr prayers in the Shah Faisal mosque in Islamabad that the first person to attack the Babri masjid on Dec. 6, 1992, was a Jihadist from POK who had joined the VHP some time ago and was part of Shiv Sena-VHP rally along with several of his co-religionists. My informant was also a Jihadist once, but perhaps not completely devoid of the milk of human kindness and thus not a true Jihadist. He retained affections for his wife and kids stranded in the valley and his Hindu and Muslim classmates in Delhi where he had studied up to graduation. He was clearly not happy with the visions of an impending holocaust in India and tried to warn me.
Another warning came to me more recently from a Jihadist on a brief visit to England. 1 met him outside London`s Finsbury Park mosque after the Friday prayers. Exultant after the Pakistani Jihadists had downed two Indian planes in Kargil, he was more direct: ``You Muslims (Indian) are cowards. Rivers of blood will flow in India soon and you will have just two choices: either become a true Muslim (i.e. Jihadist) or perish.`` Revealing future Jihadist plans, he said: ``You are completely devoid of leadership. We will provide you leadership under which you will become true Muslims (i.e. Jihadists).``
It is not some anonymous Jihadists alone who have been giving me these warnings, though they were more forthright than the so-called responsible leaders of this group. Prof. Khursheed Ahmad, vice-president of the Jamaat-e-Islami, Pakistan, for instance, told me in Islamabad recently that Indian Muslims have been shirking their duty on Kashmir and they will have to answer before God on the Day of judgement as to why they did not support the ``Jihad`` in Kashmir. Hurriyat Chairman and Kashmiri Jamaat-e-Islami chief Syed Ali Shah Geelani has, of course, been taunting Indian Muslims regularly for their supposed cowardice on Kashmir.
1 believe Providence would like me to convey these warnings to the nation. Muslims in particular must beware: they should take care not to allow any one to provoke them into any indiscretion, particularly at a time when the country is involved in a bloody fight with the enemy. It must be clearly understood that in the present case, the enemy is not only the enemy of our country but also the enemy of our religion.
The recent bomb blast at New Jalpaiguri railway station may mark the beginning of some sinister Jihadist plan. West Bengal Home Minister Budhadeb Bhattacharjea has held the Jamaat-e-Islami and not the ULFA responsible for the outrage. There are reports that the ULFA may itself be working for the Pakistani military intelligence organisation ISI. Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani, too, has warned of the possibility of a widespread terror campaign. These warnings must be taken seriously.
Prophet is our role model, not Mast Gul
Muslims must remember that they have to consult the Holy Quran for guidance in their day- to-day affairs. The model they are supposed to follow is that of Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) and not destroyers of mosques like Mast Gul. Islam did not allow its followers to pick up a weapon even in their defence for the first thirteen years even though they were facing the worst possible persecution in Mecca. They were ``permitted`` to defend themselves for the first time in Madina when they were facing aggression from Meccans. Had they not defended themselves even then they would have been surely wiped out from the face of the earth, thus sounding the death-knell for the religion of Islam as well. But only a few years later, when the Prophet had become powerful enough to wage a war with Meccans, he chose peace even on terms that were considered humiliating by most of his followers. He signed a peace agreement known as the Treaty of Hudaibiya. And then when he entered Mecca victorious, a year later, facing no resistance, he chose to grant a general amnesty for all, even for those who had mutilated the dead bodies of his close relatives like his maternal uncle Hazrat Harnza.
Mutilation of dead bodies is a mediaeval pre-Islamic practice, a practice Islam came to fight against. Those who perpetrate such acts in this day and age cannot claim to be Muslims. They must give some new name to their Faith. In any case Muslims cannot accept them as their co-religionists.
ALLAH , Compassion or Wrath?
The revelation of Divinity in Islam is specifically described as compassion: Allah is Rahmanir Rahim - the very acme of kindness and compassion.
Then who is a Kafir, unworthy of Allah`s compassion - the kafir who attracts Khuda ka Ghazab, the wrath of Allah?
How do the chosen believers derive the right to visit Allah
#398 Posted by mannyd on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
``It is misleading to think and give an impression that these issues will just disappear if Osama is captured or killed today.``
Yes Indeed.
The Bush Crusade is going to be a long one.
From http://www.debka.com/
``.......
DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s medical experts note that the bleeding gums the anonymous Pakistani was treated for are a symptom of radiation poisoning, suggesting he might have been a “mule” transporting nuclear materials or devices into America. (A subsequent investigation revealed that he had contracted gingivitis as a result of radiation-induced leukemia.)
This explanation would imply that more than one such carrier is employed by al Qaeda to smuggle nuclear materials or devices into the United States, Western Europe and the Middle East, their mission being to plant their deadly burdens in pre-arranged secret locations, ready for activation.
At roughly the same time, another Pakistani was detained at the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan to Israel. According to initial published reports, he was caught trying to smuggle in a “dirty” nuclear device (a conventional explosive mixed with nuclear materials that spreads radiation).
Then came the news blackout.
An exhaustive DEBKA-Net-Weekly investigation revealed that the arrested intruder carried no nuclear device. However, he suffered the same symptoms as the man who died in Hudson Jail, New Jersey, indicating he had been exposed to dangerous doses of radiation. DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s intelligence sources reveal that Israel has recently installed hidden Geiger counters in the battery of detectors at its international border crossings. The counter pointed border officials to the suspected “mule”, who most probably reached Jordan from Abu Dhabi.......``
Yes Indeed.
The Bush Crusade is going to be a long one.
From http://www.debka.com/
``.......
DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s medical experts note that the bleeding gums the anonymous Pakistani was treated for are a symptom of radiation poisoning, suggesting he might have been a “mule” transporting nuclear materials or devices into America. (A subsequent investigation revealed that he had contracted gingivitis as a result of radiation-induced leukemia.)
This explanation would imply that more than one such carrier is employed by al Qaeda to smuggle nuclear materials or devices into the United States, Western Europe and the Middle East, their mission being to plant their deadly burdens in pre-arranged secret locations, ready for activation.
At roughly the same time, another Pakistani was detained at the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan to Israel. According to initial published reports, he was caught trying to smuggle in a “dirty” nuclear device (a conventional explosive mixed with nuclear materials that spreads radiation).
Then came the news blackout.
An exhaustive DEBKA-Net-Weekly investigation revealed that the arrested intruder carried no nuclear device. However, he suffered the same symptoms as the man who died in Hudson Jail, New Jersey, indicating he had been exposed to dangerous doses of radiation. DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s intelligence sources reveal that Israel has recently installed hidden Geiger counters in the battery of detectors at its international border crossings. The counter pointed border officials to the suspected “mule”, who most probably reached Jordan from Abu Dhabi.......``
#397 Posted by jay on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
YLH,
usually, when I mention your `name`, it is as an example of the educated youg of pakistan, and most of the time I state it. I have mentioned it before, paki bashing on the chowk can only be a bashing of the `abstract` paki, and I mean nothing personal.
As an energetic vocal pakistani, I do believe that YLH might be able to contribute something to his homeland, and in that context a little bit of bashing may not be very harmful.
regards and best wishes.
Jayaprakash.
usually, when I mention your `name`, it is as an example of the educated youg of pakistan, and most of the time I state it. I have mentioned it before, paki bashing on the chowk can only be a bashing of the `abstract` paki, and I mean nothing personal.
As an energetic vocal pakistani, I do believe that YLH might be able to contribute something to his homeland, and in that context a little bit of bashing may not be very harmful.
regards and best wishes.
Jayaprakash.
#396 Posted by Bijli on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
#408
sux senA
``...there is an important subtlety that you are missing...israel may have been created for a group of people who happen to be jewish, but it is far from a religion state...what matters today is that israel is a secular, democratic
country...there haven`t been too many non-jews who have felt the need to move there, so it remains a largely jewish state...israelis are fighting for what they believe is their original homeland (you can argue about that, but that is a separate matter)...``
RSaxsena
Put your money where your mouth is.Show me the reference where what you write about israel being secular ,& democratic.More than 1 million isarelis living within the borders of israel state are almost 20% of population are 2nd class citizen just like another secular calling nation you know where .
If israels success is to be measure ,it should be in par with any European nation be it even poor east european Chickslovakia ,Poland,Belgium,or Holland.Because ,Istraels ruling class are the european jews asknazi /german/scandinavian/american & the dalit of israeli jews are Sephardic Jews ,mostly from arab & north African muslim nation.OR from India
Most of Isreli`s pilots are ,army veterans were 2nd w.w. soldiers of Allied who fought in 67 against Arab.Moshe dayan was American fighhting with Napalm against Vietnamese FOR AMERICA before.
The Yom Kippur war of 73 had to happen to prove the preparedness of israeli in 67 which was proven vulnerable to arab surprise attack& hence the revengfull vengeance justified .
sux senA
``...there is an important subtlety that you are missing...israel may have been created for a group of people who happen to be jewish, but it is far from a religion state...what matters today is that israel is a secular, democratic
country...there haven`t been too many non-jews who have felt the need to move there, so it remains a largely jewish state...israelis are fighting for what they believe is their original homeland (you can argue about that, but that is a separate matter)...``
RSaxsena
Put your money where your mouth is.Show me the reference where what you write about israel being secular ,& democratic.More than 1 million isarelis living within the borders of israel state are almost 20% of population are 2nd class citizen just like another secular calling nation you know where .
If israels success is to be measure ,it should be in par with any European nation be it even poor east european Chickslovakia ,Poland,Belgium,or Holland.Because ,Istraels ruling class are the european jews asknazi /german/scandinavian/american & the dalit of israeli jews are Sephardic Jews ,mostly from arab & north African muslim nation.OR from India
Most of Isreli`s pilots are ,army veterans were 2nd w.w. soldiers of Allied who fought in 67 against Arab.Moshe dayan was American fighhting with Napalm against Vietnamese FOR AMERICA before.
The Yom Kippur war of 73 had to happen to prove the preparedness of israeli in 67 which was proven vulnerable to arab surprise attack& hence the revengfull vengeance justified .
#395 Posted by scout on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
Akash #315,
Just to set the record straight, I`m not in the same age group as anNy, ylh, or the others you mentioned. They`re kids for chrissakes. I`m almost 26.
Just to set the record straight, I`m not in the same age group as anNy, ylh, or the others you mentioned. They`re kids for chrissakes. I`m almost 26.
#394 Posted by mannyd on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
``It is misleading to think and give an impression that these issues will just disappear if Osama is captured or killed today.``
Yes Indeed.
The Bush Crusade is going to be a long one.
From http://www.debka.com/
``.......
DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s medical experts note that the bleeding gums the anonymous Pakistani was treated for are a symptom of radiation poisoning, suggesting he might have been a “mule” transporting nuclear materials or devices into America. (A subsequent investigation revealed that he had contracted gingivitis as a result of radiation-induced leukemia.)
This explanation would imply that more than one such carrier is employed by al Qaeda to smuggle nuclear materials or devices into the United States, Western Europe and the Middle East, their mission being to plant their deadly burdens in pre-arranged secret locations, ready for activation.
At roughly the same time, another Pakistani was detained at the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan to Israel. According to initial published reports, he was caught trying to smuggle in a “dirty” nuclear device (a conventional explosive mixed with nuclear materials that spreads radiation).
Then came the news blackout.
An exhaustive DEBKA-Net-Weekly investigation revealed that the arrested intruder carried no nuclear device. However, he suffered the same symptoms as the man who died in Hudson Jail, New Jersey, indicating he had been exposed to dangerous doses of radiation. DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s intelligence sources reveal that Israel has recently installed hidden Geiger counters in the battery of detectors at its international border crossings. The counter pointed border officials to the suspected “mule”, who most probably reached Jordan from Abu Dhabi.......``
Yes Indeed.
The Bush Crusade is going to be a long one.
From http://www.debka.com/
``.......
DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s medical experts note that the bleeding gums the anonymous Pakistani was treated for are a symptom of radiation poisoning, suggesting he might have been a “mule” transporting nuclear materials or devices into America. (A subsequent investigation revealed that he had contracted gingivitis as a result of radiation-induced leukemia.)
This explanation would imply that more than one such carrier is employed by al Qaeda to smuggle nuclear materials or devices into the United States, Western Europe and the Middle East, their mission being to plant their deadly burdens in pre-arranged secret locations, ready for activation.
At roughly the same time, another Pakistani was detained at the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan to Israel. According to initial published reports, he was caught trying to smuggle in a “dirty” nuclear device (a conventional explosive mixed with nuclear materials that spreads radiation).
Then came the news blackout.
An exhaustive DEBKA-Net-Weekly investigation revealed that the arrested intruder carried no nuclear device. However, he suffered the same symptoms as the man who died in Hudson Jail, New Jersey, indicating he had been exposed to dangerous doses of radiation. DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s intelligence sources reveal that Israel has recently installed hidden Geiger counters in the battery of detectors at its international border crossings. The counter pointed border officials to the suspected “mule”, who most probably reached Jordan from Abu Dhabi.......``
#393 Posted by poonawala on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
YLH
We, the Indians of the Muslim Faith do not care a hoot for your wellwishes (no offence). We have nothing to do with Pakistan or Syria or Malaysia or Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or for that matter Canada, USA or any other country.
We are citizens of India and do not countenance any external interference in our matters. We will deal with our problems through our elected representatives in the State and National legislature, through the Indian judiciary, and with our fellow citizens, be they Sikhs, Hindus, Sunnis, Shias, Parsis or Protestants.
Just as you are a citizen of Pakistan and do not countenace any intrusion in your affairs.
So, will Pakistanis please stop hoping, pleading, arguing, symphathizing, applauding, crying, raging, fuming, speaking, shouting, and fighting on behalf of ``Indian Muslims``.
Focus on yourselves.
Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala
MBBS, MD
Jammu, India
We, the Indians of the Muslim Faith do not care a hoot for your wellwishes (no offence). We have nothing to do with Pakistan or Syria or Malaysia or Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or for that matter Canada, USA or any other country.
We are citizens of India and do not countenance any external interference in our matters. We will deal with our problems through our elected representatives in the State and National legislature, through the Indian judiciary, and with our fellow citizens, be they Sikhs, Hindus, Sunnis, Shias, Parsis or Protestants.
Just as you are a citizen of Pakistan and do not countenace any intrusion in your affairs.
So, will Pakistanis please stop hoping, pleading, arguing, symphathizing, applauding, crying, raging, fuming, speaking, shouting, and fighting on behalf of ``Indian Muslims``.
Focus on yourselves.
Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala
MBBS, MD
Jammu, India
#392 Posted by poonawala on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
Farzana ji
Let me point out a flaw in your reasoning. You imply that I am not a Kashmir and tell me that those who have been in Kashmir for generations are better equipped and more knowledgable about Kashmir.
The point is that this is the same arguements that the Shiv Sena would use to discredit your Indian-ness or the fact that you are a Bombayite. You have not been in India for thousands of years like the Hindus and thus you are less Indian. Do you accept this? No. So, I am a Kashmiri as I live in Kashmir, believe Kashmir is my home and speak Kashmiri.
Please do write further about your travel plans.
You must be very careful about writing about Kashmir. Do you know Kashmiri History? Have you read the Rajatarangini of Lalitaditya? This is the essential starting point.
Also, I appreciate that you dont write for a single paper. Perhaps, and no insult is intended, this is also a consequence of your financial wealth? Obviously you are wealthy enough to not have to depend on a singl paper for a steady salary and hence find the liberty and freedom to freelance. Many would like to do so but due to practical constraints have to accept a regular job with a single newspaper.
Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala
MBBS, MD
Jammu, India
Let me point out a flaw in your reasoning. You imply that I am not a Kashmir and tell me that those who have been in Kashmir for generations are better equipped and more knowledgable about Kashmir.
The point is that this is the same arguements that the Shiv Sena would use to discredit your Indian-ness or the fact that you are a Bombayite. You have not been in India for thousands of years like the Hindus and thus you are less Indian. Do you accept this? No. So, I am a Kashmiri as I live in Kashmir, believe Kashmir is my home and speak Kashmiri.
Please do write further about your travel plans.
You must be very careful about writing about Kashmir. Do you know Kashmiri History? Have you read the Rajatarangini of Lalitaditya? This is the essential starting point.
Also, I appreciate that you dont write for a single paper. Perhaps, and no insult is intended, this is also a consequence of your financial wealth? Obviously you are wealthy enough to not have to depend on a singl paper for a steady salary and hence find the liberty and freedom to freelance. Many would like to do so but due to practical constraints have to accept a regular job with a single newspaper.
Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala
MBBS, MD
Jammu, India
#391 Posted by poonawala on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
Dear Fellow Chowkwallahs
I am not an hater of Pakistan. I am not a racist. I strongly protest the venomous generalizations about Indian Muslims spewed forth by YLH. Further, I have never written anything anti-Jewish, for YLH`s quote is from the impostor Poonawallah.
YLH
I protest the vehemence of your language. If you want to debate intellectually about Jinnah lets do so.
Please dont make an Icon out of Jinnah. Accept him as a human, full of faults and imperfections, as we all are.
Please separate the official ideology of Pakistan regarding Jinnah from the Man who was Jinnah.
It is our duty as educated men and women to separate fact from myth when we assess the heroes of the Past.
A couple of errors you have made:
-I too stand for Hindu Muslim unity and Indian nationalism. My point was that Jinnah suddenly and unscrupulously turned his back on his long stated goal of promiting Hindu Muslim Unity. Whenever a leader tunrs his back on long held views, it raises serious questions about his integrity.
-To equate Sunnism with Arabian tribalism is to generalize and downgrade a great faith. What would the Muslim masses of India (90 percent Sunni) have thought if this attitude was made aware to them?
-Jinnah`s confession to Matloob Saheb is disturbing for it indicates that he did not believe in the permanence of his creation.
There are other disturbing facts about Jinnah. His eating pork and drinking whiksey and vodka were his personal habits, and while I find these to be filthy habits, I hold nothing against him on those counts.
If you are willing to engage seriously and intellectually, then I can share other insights with you. If I am proven wrong, I am willing to accept this.
Further, my name is Ali Akbar Poonawala, not ``Akbar Ali Poonawallah``.
Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala
MBBS, MD
Jammu, India
I am not an hater of Pakistan. I am not a racist. I strongly protest the venomous generalizations about Indian Muslims spewed forth by YLH. Further, I have never written anything anti-Jewish, for YLH`s quote is from the impostor Poonawallah.
YLH
I protest the vehemence of your language. If you want to debate intellectually about Jinnah lets do so.
Please dont make an Icon out of Jinnah. Accept him as a human, full of faults and imperfections, as we all are.
Please separate the official ideology of Pakistan regarding Jinnah from the Man who was Jinnah.
It is our duty as educated men and women to separate fact from myth when we assess the heroes of the Past.
A couple of errors you have made:
-I too stand for Hindu Muslim unity and Indian nationalism. My point was that Jinnah suddenly and unscrupulously turned his back on his long stated goal of promiting Hindu Muslim Unity. Whenever a leader tunrs his back on long held views, it raises serious questions about his integrity.
-To equate Sunnism with Arabian tribalism is to generalize and downgrade a great faith. What would the Muslim masses of India (90 percent Sunni) have thought if this attitude was made aware to them?
-Jinnah`s confession to Matloob Saheb is disturbing for it indicates that he did not believe in the permanence of his creation.
There are other disturbing facts about Jinnah. His eating pork and drinking whiksey and vodka were his personal habits, and while I find these to be filthy habits, I hold nothing against him on those counts.
If you are willing to engage seriously and intellectually, then I can share other insights with you. If I am proven wrong, I am willing to accept this.
Further, my name is Ali Akbar Poonawala, not ``Akbar Ali Poonawallah``.
Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala
MBBS, MD
Jammu, India
#390 Posted by ylh on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
But since I am sure Rsaxena will not go to the URL, I am going to post the `Conclusion` from Mr.Kumaraswamy`s article:
Conclusion
Contrary to public rhetoric, Israel and Pakistan have more similarities than differences. As states created to safeguard religious minorities, both are facing stiff challenges from the conservative circles who demand a greater share in power. Both came into existence because of the strong conviction that a separate sovereign political entity would be the only means of safeguarding the interests and welfare of the religious minorities. After independence, both have evolved a similar world view on important foreign policy and security issues. For long, anti-Zionism has been popular in Pakistan, and if and when Pakistan establishes formal diplomatic relations with Israel, both sides would look at the similar paths that they had tread and their shared legacy and common interests. Therefore, when the political realities so demand, Israel and Pakistan will underscore their common minority nationalism based on religion, their identical demand for a national home for minorities and their similar security and foreign policy considerations.
Conclusion
Contrary to public rhetoric, Israel and Pakistan have more similarities than differences. As states created to safeguard religious minorities, both are facing stiff challenges from the conservative circles who demand a greater share in power. Both came into existence because of the strong conviction that a separate sovereign political entity would be the only means of safeguarding the interests and welfare of the religious minorities. After independence, both have evolved a similar world view on important foreign policy and security issues. For long, anti-Zionism has been popular in Pakistan, and if and when Pakistan establishes formal diplomatic relations with Israel, both sides would look at the similar paths that they had tread and their shared legacy and common interests. Therefore, when the political realities so demand, Israel and Pakistan will underscore their common minority nationalism based on religion, their identical demand for a national home for minorities and their similar security and foreign policy considerations.
#389 Posted by ylh on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
Rsaxena
Please go to this following link :
http://www.idsa-india.org/an-sep9-2.html
Israel and Pakistan:Strange Bedfellows or Natural Allies?
P.R. Kumaraswamy,Research Fellow, IDSA
You will find it VERY INTERESTING. :)
Sincerely
YLH
Please go to this following link :
http://www.idsa-india.org/an-sep9-2.html
Israel and Pakistan:Strange Bedfellows or Natural Allies?
P.R. Kumaraswamy,Research Fellow, IDSA
You will find it VERY INTERESTING. :)
Sincerely
YLH
#388 Posted by ylh on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
Rsaxena:
Please read the following Post. Either you are completely unaware of Israel as a state or you are just messing with me...
`there is an important subtlety that you are missing...israel may have been created for a group of people who happen to be jewish, but it is far from a religion state...what matters today is that israel is a secular, democratic country...`
1) Israel was formed on the basis of `zionism` which is the view that holds all people of the jewish faith to be one nation. Interestingly Many Congress Muslims termed Pakistan as a Muslim zionist demand. It was not that `they happened to be jewish` but it was because they were jewish that they made the state. Infact the founders of Israel had founded Israel as a separate state for jews after rejecting the British Mandate of Palestine which called for one state of Jews and Muslims living together. They had feared that Palestinians would outnumber them in such an arrangement and they would become a religious minority. That was the raison de ettre of the Israeli state which is very similar to the raison de ettre of Pakistan.
2) Israel is a Modern democratic state but it is a `zionist` state not a secular one. Infact Ehud Barak`s statements are very clear: `Israel is a zionist jewish democratic state`. Ehud is from the labor party which is more secular than the right wing Likud.
3) Pakistan is less so of a religious concept than Israel for the founders of Pakistan saw Islam as a cultural and sociological expression not a `theological` one. `Israel` is a theological concept. Infact your statement `the group that happened to be jewish` is more so accurate for Pakistan, for Jinnah founded a secular state for a group which happened to Muslim. It is zia who made it into the rabid Islamic republic that it is now.
4) If Israel is a secular democratic state why does it consider all `Jewish` people around the world as citizens.
5) A Guide to Israeli Legal System.
http://www.llrx.com/features/israel.htm#Introduction
6) Indeed Israel`s system of Governance has only one equivalent in the Muslim World and that is not Pakistan, but Iran. Like in Iran, Israel too has a political parliament and then a sort of a Rabinet which oversees the Political Parliament.
Pakistan though far more discriminatory does not have a religious supreme council overseeing the political parliament.
Rsaxena, I admire your courage to come out of the shell of idealism and accept the Israeli state concept. Pakistan in itself was similar, a homeland for Muslims containing Muslim Majority Areas, unlike Israel where Israel was formed on the basis of what `the original homeland` was according to the Old Testamanet.
Now, I agree that Pakistan has gradually slipped away from its original vision of an egalitarian democratic state with a Muslim Majority but as I remember your criticism was in context of the Pakistan demand itself and not what Pakistan has become today.
Hope you will give up your biases and accept the truth everywhere... and you will make more friends that way..
Sincerely
Yasser Hamdani
Please read the following Post. Either you are completely unaware of Israel as a state or you are just messing with me...
`there is an important subtlety that you are missing...israel may have been created for a group of people who happen to be jewish, but it is far from a religion state...what matters today is that israel is a secular, democratic country...`
1) Israel was formed on the basis of `zionism` which is the view that holds all people of the jewish faith to be one nation. Interestingly Many Congress Muslims termed Pakistan as a Muslim zionist demand. It was not that `they happened to be jewish` but it was because they were jewish that they made the state. Infact the founders of Israel had founded Israel as a separate state for jews after rejecting the British Mandate of Palestine which called for one state of Jews and Muslims living together. They had feared that Palestinians would outnumber them in such an arrangement and they would become a religious minority. That was the raison de ettre of the Israeli state which is very similar to the raison de ettre of Pakistan.
2) Israel is a Modern democratic state but it is a `zionist` state not a secular one. Infact Ehud Barak`s statements are very clear: `Israel is a zionist jewish democratic state`. Ehud is from the labor party which is more secular than the right wing Likud.
3) Pakistan is less so of a religious concept than Israel for the founders of Pakistan saw Islam as a cultural and sociological expression not a `theological` one. `Israel` is a theological concept. Infact your statement `the group that happened to be jewish` is more so accurate for Pakistan, for Jinnah founded a secular state for a group which happened to Muslim. It is zia who made it into the rabid Islamic republic that it is now.
4) If Israel is a secular democratic state why does it consider all `Jewish` people around the world as citizens.
5) A Guide to Israeli Legal System.
http://www.llrx.com/features/israel.htm#Introduction
6) Indeed Israel`s system of Governance has only one equivalent in the Muslim World and that is not Pakistan, but Iran. Like in Iran, Israel too has a political parliament and then a sort of a Rabinet which oversees the Political Parliament.
Pakistan though far more discriminatory does not have a religious supreme council overseeing the political parliament.
Rsaxena, I admire your courage to come out of the shell of idealism and accept the Israeli state concept. Pakistan in itself was similar, a homeland for Muslims containing Muslim Majority Areas, unlike Israel where Israel was formed on the basis of what `the original homeland` was according to the Old Testamanet.
Now, I agree that Pakistan has gradually slipped away from its original vision of an egalitarian democratic state with a Muslim Majority but as I remember your criticism was in context of the Pakistan demand itself and not what Pakistan has become today.
Hope you will give up your biases and accept the truth everywhere... and you will make more friends that way..
Sincerely
Yasser Hamdani
#387 Posted by DRUMZ on December 7, 2001 9:25:03 pm
hobby: The exuberance is due to the fact that my parents have left and gone to india to discover the country. The combination of them no longer being online 8 hours a day and me trying to get outta studying is a deadly mixture.
Since you`re clearly so much into hip hop, I thought i`d present a sheer (not sure the spelling, I think it means ``verse`` or ``poem`` in urdu)...
``I used to read the psalms and the holy quran/
Now I just read the birds and the trees and Im gone...``
WAH WAH WAH! That sir is my way of telling you Ive been to lazy to read anything, the last book was the ``celestine prophecy`` in the summer. A great read.
Please refer me to ``Thomas Kuhn`s ``Structure of Scientific Revolutions,`` and the ``invisibility of revolutions.`` I hope they`re short, lol. Ill address them shortly.
``they relate to the ideas Urstruly has offered and the responses to these ideas.``
I don`t think so highly of the ``ideas`` he has offered. See, if one is receptive to the hypocrisy of America, yet still fails to see the ignorance and intolerance which have almost monopolized Islam - well it takes a special kind...
Namaskar.
Since you`re clearly so much into hip hop, I thought i`d present a sheer (not sure the spelling, I think it means ``verse`` or ``poem`` in urdu)...
``I used to read the psalms and the holy quran/
Now I just read the birds and the trees and Im gone...``
WAH WAH WAH! That sir is my way of telling you Ive been to lazy to read anything, the last book was the ``celestine prophecy`` in the summer. A great read.
Please refer me to ``Thomas Kuhn`s ``Structure of Scientific Revolutions,`` and the ``invisibility of revolutions.`` I hope they`re short, lol. Ill address them shortly.
``they relate to the ideas Urstruly has offered and the responses to these ideas.``
I don`t think so highly of the ``ideas`` he has offered. See, if one is receptive to the hypocrisy of America, yet still fails to see the ignorance and intolerance which have almost monopolized Islam - well it takes a special kind...
Namaskar.
#386 Posted by nasah on December 7, 2001 5:49:18 pm
``Karzai said Omar`s whereabouts were unknown.
``But, of course, I want to arrest him,`` he said. ``I have given him every chance to denounce terrorism and now the time has run out. He is an absconder, a fugitive from justice.``
Well, naivety aside -- this is MUCH BETTER!
Now arrest him and hang him.
``But, of course, I want to arrest him,`` he said. ``I have given him every chance to denounce terrorism and now the time has run out. He is an absconder, a fugitive from justice.``
Well, naivety aside -- this is MUCH BETTER!
Now arrest him and hang him.
#385 Posted by rsaxena on December 7, 2001 5:49:18 pm
re: stuka
``What happened to your invite to me and YLH for a bar crawl in NYC??``
but aren`t you in boston? and if we went, would you make me drink kerose..i mean whiskey?
if you come down, drop me an e-mail at r182@hotmail.com
``What happened to your invite to me and YLH for a bar crawl in NYC??``
but aren`t you in boston? and if we went, would you make me drink kerose..i mean whiskey?
if you come down, drop me an e-mail at r182@hotmail.com
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