The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism

Allah O Akbar
Death to the Infidel

hobbyty #308 I am sorry to say but I think you are in denial of reality when you say the US would have fought in Afghanistan regardless of 9/11. You seem not to understand the significance of the events of 9/11, which are unprecedented in not only US but human history - when thousands of innocent people are brutally killed by a bunch of suicidal nut cases. It is this failure to recognize the threat terrorism poses to civilized society - not just in the US but in Pakistan too - that allows terrorism to flourish. Thank God the US has decided to take on these terrorists - if it had not done so, Pakistan itself was headed to a civil war against the religious extremists who had been allowed to grow more and more violent. We need to recognize religious extremists for the animals that they are, incapable of earning an honest living, and seeking to gain power through force, and to thank God the US government decided to do what the Pakistan government should have done a long time ago. This may not be a popular opinion among some ``intellectuals`` and retired bureaucrats and retired generals in Pakistan, but this is reality.

Romair #321 I dont see how you can be pleased with the Pakistan governments attempts to ``round up refugees`` to send them back to Afghanistan. Let them decide for themselves where they want to live - they have lived in Pakistan for several years now, many have started businesses or jobs. To disrupt people in this manner on account of their passport status is inhuman and does no one any good. Not that anything will happen - they will round up a few unfortunate people and then forget about it since there is no way to say who was born in Pakistan and who was not.

ylh #312 You write ``Because poster z in the past has stood up for every poster a to w when they have been wronged.`` Poster z is touched that you noticed.

But rather than ending while you (and Poster z) were ahead, you write ``Believe me poster y is capable of fighting his own battles, but poster y finds poster z`s silence as hypocritical and offensive.`` Oh no, Poster z is hypocritical and offensive on account of NOT writing a post when he should have. To be unhypocritical and inoffensive then, Poster z will have to (a) read every post on chowk (b) identify the unjust ones (c) send in a post to chowk on behalf of truth and justice every time. (a) through (d) would require 100 hours in the day, and Poster z lives in a world that has 24 hours only. This is no job for an ordinary man, it is a job for superman...where the hell is temporal!!

Mfarooqui # 289



“Just to encapsulate again: Islam is a religion that has accomodated the cultural practices of the countries where it has spread. this has always been one of the strengths of Islam. As one practices Islam he/she also practices the rituals and cultures of their land (as with us in the subcontinent). What remains as a truth, always, is that we practice Islam as shown in the Quran. This is why it is incorrect to say that ``Indian Islam`` (or ``Chilean Islam`` or whatever) is different in practice. The only thing different is the cultural aspects that we add on. The namaz, the verses, the five pillars, the Kalima - the ISLAM - is the same.”

You have a point. But a lot of cultural practices (specially of Arab origin) that have little to do with Islam are confused with the faith. This varies with regions. On another note if you go deeper than “The namaz, the verses, the five pillars, the Kalima” all religions are the same.

Regards,

Faruk

re: ylh

``Kindly see the similarities between what I have been saying... and what Mr. Ehud Barak said. I hope in the future Mr. Rsaxena will stick to his `who cares what pakistanis think, Israel exists and thus it is a fact`, and accord the same courtesy to Pakistan as well, or is Rsaxena practising double standards?``

...dude, i`ve never complained about pakistan existing...if anything, i`ve said good riddance and hoped for further separation of the two countries...

...as for kashmir, `who cares what pakistan thinks is` right...it is in india and you ain`t getting it...and with nukes all around, there`s nothing you can do about it...the sooner pakis accept that, the better...

anNy

``it is time we start concentrating more on getting dates.``

LOL...woudlnt chowk be so much more lovlier if we did just that..howv u been? havent seen u here in quite some time

``

Now you know why :-)

Some people think that they can consolidate their drummer boy image by ranting about something without even looking at what has been written.Here are some samples and my replies...

[Kashmir problems goes back many years just like problem of sindh goes back many years, problem of Baloochistan goes back many years, problem of Pakhtoons goes back many years. Problem going many years doesnt make them more or less valid.]

So?? Did I not say the Kashmir problem goes back many years?

[Your willingness and eagerness to blame Hindus themselves for being slaughtered in Kashmir and to spout Pakistani propaganda is your privilege as an Indian. Then you turn around and expect understanding when Thackery goes after your type of people.]

Who are my type of people? What is Pakistani propaganda? If you are referring to something I said about pandits in the past, quote from that in exact words and the context. And who in friggin hell expects understanding from Thackeray?

[Indians protested against umpiring bias because Indians worship Lord Ram and Tendulkar is Ram. Muslim Indians protesting are also Ram worshippers. Mother Pakistan should be handed Kashmir while Mother Pakistan can do whatever she wants to its own minorities.]

Obviously, you are illiterate and have no idea about metaphors etc. I said Sacxhin is seen as the Maryada Purshottan and we cannot accept that he can do any wrong. I have clearly pointed out the racial bias of the West. But you cannot see that. And where have I said Kashmir should be handed over to Pakistan (I don’t need a mother, I have one, thank you)? Please quote para and verse.

[``Dont ask Farzana anything....Finally, responding to her nonsense is harassing her, equal to other people calling women names.``

...she hasn`t found too many buyers for that theory...not even amongst the core constituency she`s trying to develop: Pakistani women..unfortunately for her, some of the pakistani women here happen to be sane...]

Having been silenced on my Board, this dolt lands up here, as always to sponge on someone else’s comments. I am not looking for a core constituency, which is why I do not exchange notes about one individual to ‘prove’ some silly point I want to make about another individual. However, these sane women were on my Board, which is why you have landed here instead. Btw, you called them “makhees”, in case you forget….

[Calling me names doesn`t alter the fact that the only support you get on the Chowk is from Mullah231, Old-Faithful and FartsAnna.]

Lovely irony. And so you end up calling people names….

[By the way, why the hell aren`t you in Kabul with FartsAnna? Maybe she has the excuse that without Mullah Omar, Kabul isn`t the heaven on earth it used to be but I thought you have always wanted to drive your Jag on the streets of Kabul. Or is that Altamount Road in Bombay?]

Yeah, so you can come here and sneak in this. Check this out. Post #15 on my cricket board:

“Kindly refer to my post on the ‘In search of the moderate Muslim’ board: Oct-30-01 12:15:21 EST Reply #: 153:“As for the one and only one who wants to sponsor my trip to Kabul, I am now ready. Please send me my ticket AND a permit (it is tough getting one of those, I believe) at the Chowk address. Waiting in anticipation…” For months I had to tolerate the nonsense from this person, vile comments etc. But he has not been able to get back to me on this.

This was long before the Taliban fell. But there has been no response…”

[There are many anti-indian indians on the chowk like farzana and it would be interesting if they could site an indian story rediculing like the above of another religion.]

Who has given anyone the right to call me anti-Indian? Prove your nationalism right here. Tell me who you are, where you are and what you are doing for my country. Right now. By ridiculing any religion, you do not become a patriot, do you understand? So I am not going to fall into your silly trap.

And I am mighty amused by our flag-holding desis who claim to be more Indian than those of us living here. A name like ‘Poonawala’ is strange to their ears. They are completely removed from their roots and hang on to the branches like little langurs. Just for the information of the people here, Poonawala is a very common last name, mainly among certain Muslim sects and Parsis. There are also Bombaywallas, Nimbuwallas and, believe it or not, Sodawaterbottleopenerwala. I kid not. But these people have since shortened their family names. So next time you want to know these small gems about MY country, you are free to ask, okay?

Dr. Poonawala (#257):

Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that it is difficult to understand the ‘mosaic’ that is Kashmir, as it is of any issue. There will always be several pieces. But that does not take away from the fact that a certain piece has been badly mauled and therefore it reflects on the whole pattern. You say that what one will hear in the valley may not be the true voice of the people, but then one cannot also trust the official figures. What is the reality and how can we be sure that the one we are being fed is the right one?

The people who you think do not know the common voice are indeed cosmopolitan citizens of Kashmir for years; being native Kashmiris for generations they know the reality a little more than you and certainly much more than I. They have gone through the terror and the turmoil. Therefore, to dismiss them as the ‘Kashmiri elites’ would be a disservice. For me the greatest elitist is Farooque Abdulla and every darned Indian patriot is supposed to support that family because they want to hold on to the state like it was their fiefdom. Understanding history is always a good thing, but it is not the solution.

I am surprised that you first state, “I know of scores of well meaning journalist who have been manipulated by even their so called friends into presenting only particular points of view. As an Indian Muslim, you are very vulnerable.” And then you ask me, “By the way, are you a journalist? If so what paper?” And I had not once mentioned about profiling you; I only said “it would be wonderful for me to see the good work you are doing and spread the word around”. Wouldn’t you want more people to know and benefit from it, and I mean the people around the area who are not aware? Even if you don’t, I would most certainly like them to.

As for your questions: Yes, I am a Mumbai-based journalist. I do not work for any one paper as I am an independent columnist and thus far no one on earth has been able to manipulate me into giving their point of view unless I believe in it myself. And to hell with the consequences I have to face for it. I do not belong to any Muslim or any religious organization and they don’t seem to show a great interest in me. Regarding my views on Kashmir, if and when you have the time and inclination, you could check out my first two articles on Chowk; for anything else a search engine might help. I am not on a mission to unravel the complexities of that State for the Indian and Pakistani public, but to merely provide an insight that I might have.

However, I am a bit worried about your comment: “Anyway, well connected sources of mine in South Block tell me that no Indian Government will let Kashmir go without first fighting even a nuclear war.” I think people like you who are so connected to the grassroots should not be manipulated with such hogwash talk. Besides, as an activist, can’t you put in a word that this sort of thing is not good for South Asia, and you are concerned about the entire region, are you not?

Your statement: “I would welcome your visit to my humble clinic in Jammu. However

we must check dates…” is very kind. That can be easily co-ordinated, but even if you are not around I am sure that your good work will continue and there will be people from your organisation to show me around. It was nice of you to take the trouble of responding.

Regards,

Farzana

(Now that you know I am in Mumbai, I guess I don’t have to specify it in all my posts)

Shammi (#254):

[Journalists occupy a special position in society - they are opinion makers. News reporters need to separate the news from editorial content. They need to separate their emotions/biases from the news itself. The same applies to educationists. Lawyers take a partisan position in a legal case. They are not paid to be objective, but to be partisan.]

If you are an ‘opinion-maker’, why are you expected to merely relay the news? You are supposed to provide an insight, and insights are not based on merely eyewitness accounts, but what you have been able to see through and beyond. And I did make a difference between being ‘objective’ and ‘providing a balanced perspective’. In one you are expected to give a dry account of what is happening, in the latter you react to that ‘what’ and analyse the whys and hows, and these may force you bring in your emotions and biases.

Wadera (#285):

[Farzana Versey, you have become my heroine for the month - hell, make it the YEAR!!]

The countdown starts now… and don’t you dare back out of this one :)

RE: Tahmed321

Dr. Ali Akbar Poonawala

Your posts are illuminating, and the criticism that you sometimes attract centered around proving your bona-fides, or your professed religion, rather than the substance of your work only shows that some people in Chowk will not accept a middle ground between your opinions and theirs. You are acceptable only if you are discredited, and that is a shame. But, fear not --- you have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

Today, a serving civil judge was killed wantonly be terrorists in Rajouri, J&K. I have not had the time to check if Dawn called the perpetrators `freedom fighters` yet again. (I will not honor them by calling them `freedom fighters`). If it did, I will understand why a significant number of Pakistanis will remain hostile and India haters. It give me no pleasure to think this, but I will not be surprised if it were true given the news reporting. There comes a time, when people see through the gameplan of terror, and are willing to call the bluff. This day will happen soon even in Kashmir, if the terrorists do not change tack. It is happening already in the MidEast after the most recent suicide bombings in Jerusalem. The rightful Palestinian demand for political rights and a state is being usurped by killers who are implictly sending a message to the world that if given a choice between 95% of West Bank/Gaza plus negotiations over the remaining 5% and Jerusalem, their response will not be a counter peace-proposal, but terror. The latest Tom Friedman article sums it up very well:

The Intifada Is Over

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/05/opinion/05FRIE.html

Here is more on Friedman`s biography:

Thomas Friedman Comes Out Swinging In His Columns on The Middle East

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64378-2001Dec5.html

RE: Tahmed321

Sorry -- I am very pressed for time these days -- so will have to be very brief even at the cost of not expressig myself fully. Your Type I and Type II error analysis is very useful, and indeed the rational way to make decisions. If I had a free hand, I would go for it. However, the unschooled can often misunderstand it and recoil with horror at the thought of being singled out (especially, if they happen to belong to the `false positives` group). If they have the means to cause trouble, then things can go south very quickly.

hamid 326,

For me it is a kind of disbelief which I can never reconcile. We have young pakistanis like YLH, got a basic degree in a US educational system, and cannot accept the greatness of abdus salam. That is the very core of the system which conferred him the degree that he proudly puts after his name, but cannot recognise the greatness of another who achieved the pinnacle of the very system, just because he is from another religion.

I can understand it in nobel peace prize like arafat, literature like naipaul, may be even economics, but in physics, trying to unravel the laws of nature, and being ignored by the pakistanis probaly makes them only bipeds, not humans.

It is an insult to every believer in science that educated young pakistanis like YLH can write so passionately about a long dead indian muslim, sher sha suri, but chooses to ignore a great pakistani like abdus salam. My suspecion is that chowk will not publish an article about abdus salam.

``How Israeli terrorism and American treason

caused the September 11 Attacks`` by David Duke

http://www.davidduke.com/writings/howisraeliterror.shtml

AN INVERSE LAW,

Max Weber a german sociologist in a book, `` islamic ethics and the rise of califaet`` states that `` the virulance of islam is inversely proportional to the distance from saudi arabia``. Virulance is measured by the number of jihadic attacks per linear length of the border at the jihadic frontier.

Unlike the urstruly theory, this has tremendous predictive power. The jihadic attackes in pak india border is a lot more than that in the bangla border. At the east timore indonesia border, jihadic attack is non-existant. In afgh it is very high, while it is low on the turkey borders.

A theory should be simple, it should have predictive power, it should have explanatory power, and the above inverse law by the legend of sociology max weber is a tribute to his genious.

urstruly or max weber, let chowkwalas make the choice.

Akash:

``And finally another thing common between yourself, myself, Saxena, scout, anny, Kabuli etc is that all of us are supposedly young and it is time we start concentrating more on getting dates.``

LOL...woudlnt chowk be so much more lovlier if we did just that..howv u been? havent seen u here in quite some time

YLH: The fundamentalist Muslim mind is thing of wonder. One of my friends was organizing an anti war thingy in Toronto. He encouraged everyone on his mail list to check out a Picture exhibition at York university containing photos of refugees. Within minutes I get this mail from someone on his list: ``Salam, im from the MSA at york. I must remind you all the pictures are firbidden in Islam.`` He then proceeded with the relevant hadis.

PS: Hamidm is allowed to say nigger and I can`t say s.ucks??? What is this world coming to? Is it cuz I smoke and he drinks? Cuz his vocabulary is more biggered then mine? I bet its the age thing... Gandhi would disapprove of all of this...