The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism

Maybe Dr. Kevorkian would be the greatest authority on the subject. Why westerners are getting fed up with their lives. Why is their so much misery amid abundance. Why is there so much lonliness amidst canned laughter. Why the parents throw out children throw out parents throw out..ad nauseaum. Why the desire to kill millions in Vietnam Cambodia Iraq Bosnia Granada & hundred other countries to sow pseudo-prosperity at home.

Why America laughs so much , and yet is the unhappiest nation of all...given the % crime rate, Obesity, Cancer, heartattack, psychowhackos inluding psychilists like our Freedaho above, homelessness, destitudeness, apathy, plight of ``illegals`` & fear of the ``alien``.

Shielded by two ocewans for toooooo loooong; slave labor, virgin soil, itellectual-refugee pogroms, & decimation of the local populace enabled the thUGGs to amass so much capital to establish R&D ( the freedom for hit & trial & make mistakes--so ``invent`` & ``discover`` stuff).

America has been secure & smug for too long. It is time it gets included among nations with no special privileges & protocol.

The thUggs need major brain surgery--better still, it is advisable for them to commit suicide.

MEANWHILE, ELSWHERE IN THE WORLD, WHERE HAPPINESS IS SOUL_LESS PROSPERITY
World`s oldest person turns 115
21/08/2006 11:47:29 PM






World`s oldest person turns 115
21/08/2006 11:47:29 PM

The world`s oldest person celebrated his 115th birthday Monday in Puerto Rico, attributing his longevity to healthy eating and avoiding alcohol.

CBC News


Emiliano Mercado del Toro was feted at an outdoor party in the northwestern town of Isabela, where he was serenaded by his favourite singer, Iris Chacon.


``I never damaged my body with liquor,`` said Mercado, who was declared the world`s oldest last year by the Guinness Book of Records. An ambulance carried the wheelchair-bound man to an outdoor plaza where family, friends and the mayor gathered. Mercado has difficulty hearing and permanently lost his sight four years ago.


Mercado was a boy when the United States seized Puerto Rico from Spain in 1898. He trained in the U.S. Army in 1918, but the First World War ended before he saw battle.


As a young man, Mercado said, he worked for 50 cents US a day driving animals loaded with sugar cane to processing centres.


Mercado did have one vice in his life, but he kicked a 76-year smoking habit when he was 90.


According to Guinness, the oldest fully authenticated age belonged to Jeanne-Louise Calment of France. She lived 122 years and 164 days before dying in a nursing home in 1997.


With files from Associated Press

Truth indeed that is a consistent perspective. My argument is not that these three events were wrong or right, but my bone was Mr.Saxena who was picking and choosing.

I agree with you in certain aspects. However in spirit atleast the creation of Pakistan was better than the other two events because atleast in principle no transfer of populations was envisaged, hence Jinnah`s numerous pronouncements on the need of equality regardless of religion caste or creed. I contend that it was mass hysteria fired up by propaganda by the Hindu Mahasabha and leaders like Tara Singh that led to Hindu exodus from Pakistan, and then came retaliatory killings on both sides.

Sincerely

YLH

Re: ylh

yeah, whatever

Message from Chowk Staff:

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(No Im playing, but something tells me Ima be next, LOL)

Yahuda Goldsteen,

Kindly dont fib. Whereas I agree that Ahmadis have been discriminated against in Pakistan but that is a persecution of recent origin. One of Pakistan`s most impassioned pleaders, Sir Zafrullah Khan, Pakistan`s first Foreign Minister, was an Ahmadi. He had fought for Pakistan. Such discriminations which have been created will be undone one day. Maybe you will be interested to know that Sir Zafrullah Khan had advised extensively to the Zionist leaders in 1947 while taking a Public stance against Israel compelled by the overwhelming Public opinion in favor of Israel.

Your assertion about Shias is totally untrue. My mother is a shia, and Pakistan has had a lot of Shiite rulers... Indeed, Pakistan`s founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a shia not a sunni, Whereas there has been violence against the shias recently but there is nothing legally against Shiites... Indeed only a couple of hundred posts ago, one Mr. Ali Akbar Poonawala from India was accusing Jinnah of being too pro-Shiite which ironically he didn`t follow up with facts.

My mother is a high ranking bureaucrat in the Health Department in Pakistan and a doctor. She is a shiite. Her brother and sister are very active PPP politicians, and coming to PPP, its most famous leaders Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto were shiites just like M.A Jinnah the founder of Pakistan. My father`s mother is an Ahmadi Muslim and proud of it ... she is also a very patriotic Pakistani.

Pakistan`s constitution in its original form has nothing discriminatory against any sect or religion ... let alone sects of Islam. Indeed the 5th Amendment is the one which seeks to define a Muslim. The other discriminatory legislation is almost entirely through provisional constitutional orders. Kindly see for yourself:

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/

No one is arguing that Israel is not better than Pakistan ... indeed the Israeli state commands my complete respect in many matters.. but my point was that Pakistan`s basis as a homeland for Muslims of South Asia cannot be called faulty just because someone happens to disagree with it. There is nothing absolutely nothing wrong with the Two Nation Theory as an Idea.... especially when it was espoused by people who had come to this conclusion have toiling for more than 30 years for the cause of Hindu Muslim Unity.

Sincerely

YLH

ylh:

the dissolution of palestine, india and the ottoman empire were all disasters. palestine - the suffering and refugee problems of the palestinians. india - the largest, most sudden and violent migrations in the history of man. ottoman - the expulsion/migration of the greeks from modern day turkey.

the big flaw in the creation of pakistan was the following - it was not a case of ``muslims are here, hindus are there``, lets split up. you were really drawing a political line between communities that lived side by side in villages and towns, peacefully or not. the challenge for a new generation was to meld the two communities together, not to say ``you worship cows, we eat it``.

re: romair

...tip: read before you respond...and read what`s written, not what you want to be written...

Rsaxena,

Dear sir, I have not argued with you about whether Pakistan has achieved much or not... that is a different matter entirely... I have only said that religion based Nationalisms cannot be decried simply because they are religion based... it is the democratic diplomatic political right of the people to group themselves according to any affiliation they may like. Hence while you can accuse Pakistan of many faults, by supporting Israel you forfeit your right to point fingers at Pakistan`s nationalism as being `religion-based` ... In any event, you have shown yourself to be an unworthy opponent in argumentation. You have sought to win the argument by changing the topic.

Like I said before you have a lot of issues in your life you should deal with. First and foremost you have to give up this false notion that somehow you are a God`s gift to mankind. Usually such people end up committing suicide on these boards.. look at your mentor `Latif Chappu`... Nobody even remembers him anymore... You have to keep in mind this world will continue to honor people like Bill Clinton, Larry King and Bill Press, but people like Bill O`reilly will pass away from the Public memory once their 15 minutes of fame is over.

Secondly you have to give up the notion that you somehow know everything better than everyone else. Let me make it clear to you. David Ben Gureon and Jacob Robinson Know more about Israel. It is a fact. There is no shame in admitting that the founders of the state of Israel know better than you,an Indian selling Hot Dogs on Wall street. Claiming that simply because YLH went to Rutgers while you went to an Ivy League school doesn`t make you more knowledgeable than Ben Gureon. This is true on other counts as well.

Third, you have to stop deluding yourself that your jokes are on some level actually funny.It is apparent that people here dont laugh with you but at you. For an allegedly Ivy League educated individual you show no class or education whatsover. Bill O`reilly went to Harvard but his Harvard education failed to change him. No school, no matter how good, can change your personality ... in other words if you stink ... You stink. Live with it, and use a deoderant.

Hope you will take this sincere advice and stop making a fool out of yourself and in process make India and Indians look bad. I personally dont suffer fools gladly so if indeed you wish to cross swords of argument with me again, please have something more than crass largely unfunny jokes that you seem never to run out of....

Sincerely

Your Friend

YLH

Ladies and Gentlemen typical Rsaxenian method of argumentation. Can`t fight logic facts and sanity (remember Rsaxena claimed he knew more about Israel than Jacob Robinson and Ben Gureon) respond with childish and stupid comments.

Jay, Goldsteen saga .....

Jay, sad to see that you just keep on lying and making strawman fallacies as if on energizer batteries. I hope that you leave this earth soon enough so that the hope for genuine and realistic peace is finally laid. Ironically the most fanatical and bigoted of Muslims, the deobandi fundamentalists (aka the forerunners of the taliban movement) opposed tooth and nail the creation of Pakistan siding with Gandhi and his entourage...

Let us not forget that the basic complaint of the deobandi fundamentalist (who according to Jay is the better of the Muslims selected by natural selection) to Pakistan was that according to them Pakistan was a product of misplaced `Muslim Zionism` and hence unIslamic ... indeed it is strange to see Goldsteen forging an alliance with Jay .. for the shameless and inaccurate claims that Jay makes can easily be turned around and made against the Jews of Israel. Interestingly enough the only politician in the annals of Indian History to earn the title of `Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity` was Jinnah the founder of Pakistan. This exclusive title was not even awarded to someone like Gandhi.

Yet I cannot in good conscience concede that Mr. Goldsteen is actually jewish and/or Israeli. Indeed he sounds more like a Keralite Hindu to me, for in my experience Israelis are some of the most educated and tolerant people. Ironically Goldsteen continues to bash Pakistan while targetting Shammi and Prem, two of the most educated and enlightened Indians I know of yet.

Ironically it was a Pakistani, tahmed321, who came to Goldsteen`s aid on this board. It is quite possible that Goldsteen is either Saxena or Jay ... if not, I stand disilluisoned by Israelis.

Sincerely

Yasser Latif Hamdani

Message from Chowk Staff:

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Ayaz Amir, in Dawn, put it clearly.

`But Pakistan`s guardians still do not say that the policies forged in the crucible of `jihad` and now abandoned under pressure were in themselves flawed. On the contrary, by insisting on the no-choice argument they imply that there was nothing wrong with those policies. Only the external environment changed in such a way as to make them untenable. This is shirking responsibility...`

The saner voices in Pakistan have realised the fact that jihadism is bad for Pakistan but the majority is still too much in love with their jihadi addiction.

Ayaz Amir, in Dawn, put it clearly.

`But Pakistan`s guardians still do not say that the policies forged in the crucible of `jihad` and now abandoned under pressure were in themselves flawed. On the contrary, by insisting on the no-choice argument they imply that there was nothing wrong with those policies. Only the external environment changed in such a way as to make them untenable. This is shirking responsibility...`

The saner voices in Pakistan have realised the fact that jihadism is bad for Pakistan but the majority is still too much in love with their jihadi addiction.

Something the Kanjar(munafique muslim)class of Pakistan & India can learn from....both men & women.

Peace and freedom for women

An American convert to Islam explains her choice

__________________________________________________

It puzzles me, an American Muslim woman, that non-Muslims rarely ask me about my religious beliefs and practices. Instead I am invariably asked something like this: ``How could a modem American woman be a Muslim? Don`t Muslims treat their women horribly?`` Most Americans believe that Islam treats women as spiritual and intellectual second-class citizens and relegates them to a life behind a veil in a secluded harem, denied rights and education in a state of semi-slavery to their husbands.

It is difficult to counteract such stereotypes and to fully convey the many blessings Islam holds for women. Like having a baby, taking an acid trip, or riding a bicycle it is difficult to describe to someone who hasn`t tried it. It is also important to distinguish between what Islam legislates and teaches about the position of women and how women are actually treated in various times and places.

A Muslim woman is first and foremost a Muslim. The beliefs and practices of Islam are the core of her life. Islam. or surrender to Allah, means following as perfectly as possible the din, the way of life outlined in the Koran and Hadith (traditional sayings of the Prophet). As I often explain it to children and to non-Muslims: ``If you sincerely believed that God was telling you to doI something- for example, to cover your head-wouldn`t you do it`,``` For a Muslim. it`s almost that simple. Islam means surrender. Surrender is surrender!

The Koran emphatically repeats that men and women are spiritually equal in the sight of Allah and that their religious duties are the same. Except for specific exemptions for menstruation and for 40 days after childbirth. a Muslim woman prays at least five times every day of her life. She fasts during the month of Ramadan unless she is sick, on a journey, pregnant, or nursing. Since she can own her own property (her husband cannot touch it without her consent), she must pay the obligatory zakat (the Islamic alms tax). She should make the pilgrimage to Mecca if she can.

Both men and women are encouraged to seek education and knowledge. They are both expected to hold to the moral virtues of purity, chastity, and modesty. For a woman this means being fully covered in public, except for face and hands, by clothes that do not reveal her figure. (Some also interpret this to mean that her face should be covered with a veil, but this is by no means a universally accepted interpretation or practice.) She may be less covered with her husband, .chil dren, and near family. it is unthinkable for a Muslim woman to display her body to men other than her husband in the way that Western women now take for granted as ``natural`` or fashionable.

The family and the raising of children occupy a central place in the moral and social legislation of Islam, and this is sometimes difficult for modern Westerners to understand and appreciate. It is from this concern for the stability and strength of the family that Islam creates different and complementary roles for men and women.

An example of this is inheritance rights, which are distinctly spelled out in the Koran. Before Islam, women had no right of inheritance. Under Islam, they receive half the share of men. Taken out of context this appears to be unfair, but men are clearly charged with the care and protection of women and children, and this often applies to an extended family. Having no such financial obligations, women are given the right to inherit, but they inherit less.

Marriage is an important part of Islam. Families often seek to arrange a marriage for their daughter with a suitable man, but the woman must consent to it. A Muslim marriage involves a contract between husband and wife, and the husband gives his wife a wedding gift (which is not a dowry or a bride price).

A wife is expected to obey her husband in all decisions, although he may well consult her; he is the head of the family and his is the final word. She is expected to care for and guard his home and property. She may keep her maiden name and may seek employment in any suitable field (although this is generally discouraged since the primary job of women is motherhood)

Most non-Muslims assume that since polygamy is permitted in Islam it must be common, but in fact it is rare. The conditions that make it allowable (being able to treat more than one wife, and up to four wives, absolutely equally) are difficult for most men to meet. It is socially necessary when war creates a surplus of widows and unmarried women or when a wife is unable to bear children and children are very much desired.

Similarly, although divorce is permitted and acknowledged to be sometimes necessary, it is discouraged and every effort is made to avoid it. Both men and women may initiate divorce, subject to waiting periods specified in the Koran. Men are expected to support wife and children during the waiting period, a period of separation. Wives who initiate divorce in many cases must give all or part of their marriage gift back as compensation. The men of the family support unmarried women, widows, and orphans.

This may sound like limitation and a loss of freedom to Westerners, yet most Muslim women perceive these standards as a great blessing; they create an environment of protection, honor, respect, and peace in which women may concentrate on bringing up their children. From this point of view, Western women appear to have the short end of the stick!

There is an inner freedom that can only be experienced when we freely accept limits and discard the illusion of a freedom that is merely slavery to our own whims, desires, and fantasies. This is the crux of women`s position in Islam. Certain rights are given and certain limits are set-in the context of Allah`s will. The benefit is not in the outward life, but in the possibility of the soul`s evolution.

I know many American women who have lived as Muslims, some of them for many years. Most of them are highly educated, widely experienced, and came to Islam from a ``liberated`` past. I don`t know of even one of them who would want to return to her former way of life. I believe that says a lot.

__________________________________________________

re: semipreciousme

``…yes, van gundy left you high and dry, didn’t he?….bad, very bad….as for the air god taking over the knicks…bite your tongue…..what blasphemy!…``

yes, he did...i don`t sense some glee there, do i?...i know `air god` would jump at the chance to be in the Big City...who wouldn`t want that ;)

``By the way it has been alleged by a jew, that the only country where jews have not been persecuted is india. Have you heard of it.``(jay)

By the phrase ``only country`` -- you mean -- you`re telling Mr. Goldsteen not to persecute the Ethiopian Jews in Israel?

I hope Goldsteen “understands” your sarcasm, Jay.

re: ylh

dude, doesn`t matter what i say or you say or any quotes you pull out say...or whether my school was kicked out of the ivy leagues to make room for rutgers...proof is in the pudding...look at what israel has accomplished and look at what pakistan has accomplished (nothing)...there was something clearly different about israel`s foundation which promoted success while pakistan`s promoted failure...

yahuda,

I am only a paki basher. My the best friend of more than a quarter century is a muslim. But then again, he is a keralite, which is very different from being a muslim of the pak kind.

Pakistan is a product of a darwenian selection pocess among the indian muslims. They believed that hindus and muslims cannot live together, created a legal-political-education system based on it and at last the children of that system are creating havoc in the world. Pakistan is a designer terrorist state. It is created for it and the people selected for it.

How to identify a hindu is a curriculum requirement in pak schools. There can be no other country in the world with such a requirement, and one may ask why. No pakistani dares to answer.

regards

jay

Prem #66 When a Pakistani general starts getting too popular in the West, I start getting uncomfortable. Because this means the pressure on him to restore the constitution weakens. However, I think the article is correct in commending Musharaff for his courage and vision, as it is for commending both the Vajpayee and Musharaff for their responsible behaviour and suggesting that sharon and arafat need to learn something from these two.

Of course no man is perfect, and no man can substitute for a proper constitutional framework for any length of time. And I hope Musharaff has the vision to recognize that too.

RSaxena:

“btw, with our knicks coach gone now, your think mr. jordan would like the job? :)”

…yes, van gundy left you high and dry, didn’t he?….bad, very bad….as for the air god taking over the knicks…bite your tongue…..what blasphemy!…

re: ylh

``It is a disease which plagues young Indian minds to somehow``

how did you manage to get it from them?

re: hamzad afaqui # 485

Beautiful! Just the authentic evidence I have been waiting for. Now I fully believe that Americans blew up the towers by themselves.

re: Yahuda Goldsteen # 483

My dear man, you are going from bad to worse.

Are you acting stupid or do you really haunt psychiatric wards?

`did i say something true that you didn`t like?`

Hardly? Like I said you have a high opinion of yourself no doubt arising from an inaccurate self estimate.

YLH

Rsaxena, Old chap, you are quite correct when you charge me with selective reasoning. I am quite selective in taking Jacob Robinson`s word, one of the important emissaries of Zionist movement and Israel, than your word ... for I am sure most of the people here will agree that Jacob Robinson and Ben Gureon probably knew just a little bit, a tad bit, a small amount, more than you do about Israel. But then again, maybe I am employing `selective` reasoning.

Sincerely

YLH

An interesting view-point for those interested in digging the truth.A MUST!

http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wtc.html

NOTE:The address can also be copy/pasted.In case some-one did not know & found it cumbersome!

An interesting view-point for those interested in digging the truth.A MUST!

http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wtc.html

re: ylh

back to selective reasoning again...anyway, what made you so angry?...did i say something true that you didn`t like?

It is a disease which plagues young Indian minds to somehow equate the concept of `British` India with that of the United states. It is a well known fact that the US was initially a homogenously White protestant country or rather a confederation of 13 colonial states. Unlike the `British` India it was neither an `unnatural` union imposed by a foreign power, nor was the successor state different from the colonial power as in it was not the natives but the colonizers who had separated from shall we say the mothership. In due course of time keeping in mind the excess land that the US had, and the excellent secular values, which made the United states a totally multicultural and multireligious society.

The cases of United Palestine United India and the Ottoman Empire were manifestly different. Here we had two often hostile communities which had gone to war on numerous occasions, being brought together for the first time in a democratic one man one vote system. In Palestine it has been the concern of Ben Gureon for the rights of the minority Jews and their cultural and millenial aspirations that created Israel. In India it was the concern for social and political safeguards of the minority Muslims which led to the creation of Pakistan. The Ottoman Empire was an ancient system of governance which brought together people of all religions and ethnicities into one empire, led by Muslims. Here the Anatolian Muslims banded together as a Nation and founded the Turkish republic as a Homogenous but secular Republic.

Sincerely

YLH

DRUMZ

Check out ``Muslimgauze`` on audiogalaxy.com

and comment please.

DRUMZ

[And along with being a kaffir, im also a dalit, heathen and weed head]

- Mate, you are none of those things, you are just DRUMZ, a top man!

[Whats the skunk?]

- You dont get this stuff in USA/Canada? The genetically engineered super strength Amsterdam ganja

(not that I have tried it of course...)

;)

yahuda

So you were looking for a pakistani jew, well well, ask them about the millions of hindus left behind after the partition.

I have a good jewish friend, he was my class mate and we even did some bussines together in the good old days. he was a ``jew`` among the jews. In the 1970s, jews from kerala were immigrating to israel. There were less and less people in their synagogue at cochin, which also has several commercial properties. My friend stayed back, hoping that once all the jews leave, he will become the de-facto owner of the synagogue. He waited till the early eighties, and it did happen, his family became the only significant family to run the synagogue and my friend had a good time. That is when the indian govt stepped in, made it a historical site and created a committee of jews not really residing in cochin to advise on the running of it.

My friend and collegue left for israel, now he holds a very senior position in an aviation company in israel. He never kept contact after he went to israel, but it came as a total suprise to see a classmate across the table at an inter-industry meet. Long live the kerala jews.

By the way it has been alleged by a jew, that the only country where jews have not been persecuted is india. Have you heard of it.

regards

jay

RSaxena

“...there are enough problems in india, we surely wouldn`t have needed a few hundred million people who can`t even sustain democracy to be a part of india...”

….um…that’s 150 million…the population problem is bad…but it’s not THAT bad….

Harpreet: Yup, the chipher was invented in india, but dont tell anyone else. To be real, there is no book as deep at the bhagavad gita-in all of spirituality. The Quran IMO is like a chapter from that book. The only thing which compares is Metu Netr out of egypt. Whats the skunk? And along with being a kaffir, im also a dalit, heathen and weed head.

Shammi: I got the first few lines but ima need a translator for the rest, lol.

Hamzad: You got me reflecting a bit. If I can change my answer, i believe that all paths are the same. There isnt any easier one. We all do whats easier for us. For example, I have no where near the amount of discipline needed to pray 5 times everyday. Anyone who does so is quite advanced.

The universe doesnt like delineation though the sufis stand out. They aim to go against their own nature which requires the strictest of wisdom and discipline. Very few in the world can do such.

Rsaxena, tsk tsk ...

`...the analogy to Pakistan`s creation is not the creation of Israel...the analogy would be if American Jews decided they did not want to be a part of America`s multi-religious fabric and wanted their own Jewish state carved out of America...`

I dont think anyone will consider your opinion very much Mr.Saxena because the Zionists clearly put the creation of Pakistan as a precedent. Indeed Jacob Robinson, the famous emissary of the Zionists wrote the memorandum in 1947 ``Partition of India: Implications for Palestine``, Central Zionist Archives (Jerusalem) S25/9029.

In any event I am afraid that is a wrong analogy which is easily exposed by one reading of the US`s history. Perhaps you are greatly lacking in this field, and this exposes your credible `Ivy` League education.The analogy that would be more fair is that instead of joining the federation of the United states, New York would have gone its separate way as was envisaged by George Clinton for a very long time. Indeed, Patrick Henry the famous founding father was opposed vehemently to one Union calling for all thirteens states to be independent. Quite the contrary Pakistan didn`t separate from an Independent free India but was a successor authority along with the Government of the Dominion of India from a colonial power which had brought about an unnatural union of hitherto geographical and social expression.

`Palestine` was a British ideal of having one state with two peoples, Jews and Muslims, living in one secular democratic state. Ben Gureon the brilliant leader of the jews opted for a separate Jewish state. Similarly `United India` was a fantastic idea, idealistic no doubt but not realistic..

Nevertheless, the hypocrisy in your suggestion is that it is better if a people were imported to a land claimed by them through a religious book and then they kicked off the original people ... than a people in an unnatural union such as `India` exercise their right of self determination and become a majority state of their own.

It seems to me Mr.Saxena your biases and hatred are on the count of five things..

1) Your ignorance of the History of Israel and Zionism.

2) Your narrowminded Indian perspective of the creation of Pakistan.

3) Your ignorance of the History of the United States.

4) Your unwillingness to accept that you are not equipped with the proper knowledge to make sweeping generalizations and horrible simplifications of History.

5) Your arrogance, pride and an inaccurate self estimate.

Sincerely

Yasser Latif Hamdani

To the genius who wrote the following

` Pakistan’s misfortunes are its own creation. Formed on the basis of a theory whose fatuity was

exposed in 1971, it never evolved into a modern State whose indispensable ingredient is democracy.`

I was unaware that Bangladesh is now part of India. Thanks for informing me of this vital fact.

Pakistan was formed as a westminister style democracy and indeed should exist as one and that more than anything else has been the cause of Pakistan`s dismemberment. Bangladesh`s parting of ways exposes the weakness of civil bureaucracy and Military alliance to hold the country together separated by 1000 miles.

Indeed Pakistan`s basic foundation, the Lahore Resolution, spoke of two not one state! and Jinnah had agreed to two states but it was Nehru who had feared `Balkanization` of India. Nehru`s daughter created an another myth : The TNT has been undone she said ... TNT which was an imagined concept like all Nationalisms has been undone... this myth has been given its due in the events of last 30 years especially with the victory of Khaleda Zia over the Indo-Phile Haseena Wajid. Too bad great statesmen and women like Nehru and Indira were spent so many years undoing an imagined concept that was undone with the creation of Pakistan itself. tsk tsk ... poor souls...

Maybe the genius will now take time out to explain why and how TNT has been exposed, and why is it that the `Bi-National` and `two state` theory of Israel seems to be thriving even... The difference as the genius will point out is stable democracy. So I pray to Pakistanis to strengthen the hands of their government in pursuit of democracy and an egalitarian system of Government which does not discriminate on the basis of religion caste or creed... Undoubtedly we are a Nation which is predominatly Muslim and Islam occupies an important place in Pakistani cultural discourse but the Nation-state itself can only be a secular democracy and by secular I mean equal rights for all regardless of religion caste or creed.

Yehuda Goldsteen----#470

Thanks for your research & clarification about BM.Now please tell me if you also know Mr.Mohal in Tel Aviv.His profession is also his last name--he registered it that way.I met him near the Jaffa gate last march.Is his practice still flourishing near Mount of Olives or the hadassas have started interfering to the extent that the Sabras are the only chosen ones now---Mohal or not.

Your contributions & learning you acquired at the Yeshiva could be invaluable on this forum.Leave Pakis & Muslims to their own destiny,they are really not your equal or worth.Please share your knowledge about what Abba Eban wrote about jews in muslim Spain & Maimonides.

shankar #64: ``Nobody is gloating that innocent civilians died.``

I don`t agree with this. Please take a look at the replies from Indians on this board. Hardly, any Indian has condemned this outright, without trying to gain a political advantage related to Kashmir. Kind of like, well you guys deserved it. You have yourself stated, ``So, yes, the chickens DO come home to roost.`` The reason this has taken place is because Pakistan is supporting USA. Otherwise the only terrorism in Pakistan historically has been due to Shia-Sunni situation. Al-Qaeda never did anything in Pakistan. So which chickens are you talking about. And the attack was directed towards a US building, not towards Pakistan.

``Whether the victims were Pakistani citizens, American soldiers, Pakistani soldiers, or Indian soldiers...doesnt make a difference..it would be sad.``

Yes. And this is the point I try to get across to Indians, i.e. if Indians are going to talk about terrorism, they need to first and foremost talk about terrorism in Kashmir being commited by India. 99% of the terrorism deaths in South Asia are in Kashmir by Indian forces. Unfortunately, Indians never give this any press. Two prominent APHC leaders have been put in jail by India, but no Indian cares. Indians are just worried about protecting their beloved Kashmiris from cross-border terrorism.

India wants cross-border support to stop so that it can thoroughly cleanse the Kashmiris and completely subjugate them.

The only point ever highlighted by Indians are the few terrorist cases in Kashmir, in which non-Kashmiri Indian civilians are killed. And even in those, India refuses to allow an investigation, therefore we do not know whether India itself arranged them.

Talk to the Kashmiris and you will discover that they consider the Indian forces to be the terrorists and generally support the infiltrators coming in from Pakistan. If these infiltrators were carrying out all the terrorism, the Kashmiris would hate them and hate Pakistan. Yet the Kashmiris hate the Indian forces. So who is committing the terrorism. What difference does it make what Vajpayee says. Talk directly to the Kashmiris.

Based on this, I always make it a point to highlight that all forms of terrorism should be condemned. Unfortunately, Indians never seem to mention that being carried out by, ``Indian soldiers.``

There is definitely a double standard. Now India is bent upon propogating the falsity that it is not India but others who are terrorists in Kashmir.

That is why it sickens me when Indians try to act like they are concerned about terrorism being carried out in Kashmir, as if India is concerned about Kashmiris (while simultaneously killing them). Why would Indians be concerned about the deaths of Kashmiris in IOK, when India itself is killing most of them?

Can you really state with a straight face that Indians are worried about Kashmiri civilian lives? Damned if you do, damned if don`t if one is a Kashmiri in IOK. Indians will kill Kashmiris and then will try to act like they are protecting Kashmiris from, ``cross border terrorism.`` It is the people crossing the border who are actually protecting the Kashmiris against Indian govt.`s terrorism. That is what the Kashmiris will tell you. Why else do you think India doesn`t allow the Kashmiri voice to be heard? Why is it that Indians from Bombay do all the talking about who is killing the Kashmiris?

Has any India (other than you) ever criticised India`s forces killing the Kashmiris. Obviously not. So I don`t agree with you that Indians feel, ``sad`` about terrorism. They actually support it in Kashmir. India generally uses terrorism in South Asia to hide its own oppression in Kashmir. And that is exactly what Indians on this board have done.

Pakistanis have generally condemned terrorism in Kashmir and India and Pakistan. They only support the attacks on the Indian forces in Kashmir, which is not terrorism according the Amnesty International (regardless of what Advani or Bush say). It is also not terrorism according to the Kashmiris themselves.

I hope you now understand my point. If Indians want to condemn terrorism, lets hear them condemning their govts. terrorism in Kashmir, which causes not 10 but tens of thousans of deaths. Once I see that, I will believe your statement.

``So you understand why when Kashmiri militants (whether homegrown or imported) pull stunts like this in IOK``

Please talk to the Kashmiris in IOK to find out who is pulling the stunts. They will tell you it is the Indian govt. and military that they hate. They actually support most of the militants.

``Heck, there are tons of Pakistanis who are members of the Al-Qeeda network--or at least Al-Qeeda sympathisers``

This is ridiculous. Al-Qaeda is a Saudi and Egyptian organization. It targets the USA. Pakistanis have nothing against the USA. I am not sure where you have come up with the figure of tons of Pakistanis. Can you name a few Pakistanis who have been caught through Al-Qaeda?

If there are tons of Pakistanis supporting Al-Qaeda, then why the hell is Al-Qaeda targeting Pakistan. It should be supporting Pakistan.

You need to lay off the international propoganda, and stop using US foreign policy, and George Bush as you benchmark for human rights. The US only has political concerns. If it needs Pakistan, Pakistan will be an angel. If it needs India, India will be an angel. I would suggest you rely of what the human rights organizations say.

P.S. If nothing else, I would like to at least request you (if no other Indian will listen) to stop trying to become a spokesperson for Kashmiris, and the terrorism being carried out agaisnt them by Pakistan. They don`t need you as a spokesperson. It is sickening and condescending for Indian`s to try to attempt to highlight the plight of the Kashmiris, when the Indians themselves are killing them.

If you are concerned about terrorism in Kashmir, then please try to put pressure on the Indian govt. to allow an investigation by human rights organizations in Kashmir, to see who is actually committing the terrorism.

From Dawn: ``They said the women drivers, who were still learning driving at a training school, drove their cars slow and remained to the extreme left. Those, who planted the bomb, either were following the car or waiting for it at the Frere Garden. As the car reached near the US Consulate, they pressed the button of a remote device exploding the bomb, which was so powerful that it blew the car into pieces.

The criminals did have access to the driving school and used the car for the terrorist activity. The women riders never knew about the presence of the bomb.``

The bas!rds killed these women in cold blood, along with other innocent people.

Humsab #466 ``Pakistan has never been in deeper trouble.`` I think Pakistan has never been in better shape: the military government, even after Zia was gone, was afraid of the mullahs and their supposed street power. The mullahs have been exposed to be empty vessels in the past couple of months, and their street power has proven to be a myth - they promised a million men on the streets, and could not bring out more than a few thousand madrassah students. The key mullah generals have been weeded out. Gen. Hamid Gul is exposed as a paper tiger. Will Musharaff use this opportunity to give a death blow to the evil of Islamism in Pakistan? Will he try once and for all to fix fences with India? And continue steadily on the march to democracy where he has already taken a historical step by breaking the back of the bureaucracy at the district level and introducing local self governments? Watch out for the next exciting episodes over the next 12 months.

Re: DRUMZ

``...When people confuse the ocean (allah) for the stream (islam), they consider the stream as being absolute...``

Check out this bhakti song:

Allah tero naam, ishwar tero naam

Sabko sanmati dey bhagwan...

O saare jag ke rakhwaale

Nirbal (weak) ko bal (strength) dene waaley...

http://www.bhaktisangeet.com/popup/playbox_main_frame.cfm?d_bhajans/filmi/filmipart2/&allahtero.rm

Hamzad: Yes, i definately had some very wise, secular parents. They encouraged me to find my own way. Man theres not much else I can say other then we all have a long way to go.

Salam.

DRUMZ:

I thought only non-Mussulmaan were Kaffirs? Oh well, join the club, I suppose.

:)

[Mathematics is perhaps the only factual basis for understanding Allah. Look at the zero. Is it not absolute? Its undefinable yet no mathematical equation would work without it.}

Mate, you have really put your foot in it now. Zero was invented by (shhhhh), the Hindus!

Have you been on the skunk?

:)

Burnt by Islamic bigotry

Amulya Ganguli



Pakistan has never been in deeper trouble. Even at the time of its break-up in 1971, China offered moral support and the US sent its warships into the Bay of Bengal to frighten India.

Today, China is as concerned about Pakistani support for Islamic terrorism in Xinjiang as India is about the same menace in Kashmir, while the US is keeping a wary eye on Islamabad’s nuclear arsenal.

A basic cause of Pakistan’s predicament, in 1971 and 2001, is the absence of democracy. It is no surprise that in both these years, a military dictator has been in charge in Islamabad. While Yahya Khan considered it absurd to hand over power in 1971 to a Bengali from the then East Pakistan simply because he won an election, Musharraf had convinced himself that he would have his name written in golden letters in history books by grabbing Kashmir to compensate for the loss of East Pakistan.

To be fair, the idea is not his alone.

Ever since another dictator, Zia-ul Haq, encouraged Islamic fundamentalism to consolidate his hold on power, successive Pakistani leaders, including civilians like Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, went along with the idea of using religion to prise Kashmir away from India. But it was Musharraf who decided (behind Nawaz Sharif’s back?) to take the proxy war to its logical conclusion by virtually launching a formal war in Kargil.

During the process of encouraging the jehadi enterprise in Kashmir, the Pakistani establishment was evidently taking a huge risk so far as their own country was concerned since zealotry was bound to raise its ugly head in Pakistan as well.

That there was a faint realisation of the danger posed by the growing clout of the bigots was evident from the ban imposed on extremist Sunni and Shia outfits in Pakistan and the stern lecture given by Musharraf to a gathering of clerics about how the Muslim world was falling behind the other countries in many respects.

But if Musharraf nevertheless believed that his government’s policy was a ‘correct’ one towards the Taliban, as he said in a BBC interview, it was because he presumed that any damage which Pakistani society might suffer because of the Taliban’s extremist influence would be more than made up by the acquisition of Kashmir.

But the best-laid plans can go awry.

In any event, Musharraf’s Kargil misadventure probably showed that he had realised that time for grabbing Kashmir was running out.

As always, a Pakistani military junta had underestimated India’s resilience, as any ‘strong and silent’ dictatorship does when dealing with a noisy democracy. Besides, Islamabad was also becoming aware of the fact that the rest of the world was waking up to the threat of Islamic militancy. The remarks of President Clinton during his visit to India showed that the US had taken note of Pakistan’s involvement in the insurgency in Kashmir.

Even then, Musharraf might have continued with his ‘correct’ policy towards the Taliban but for the fact that each country, even an Afghanistan functioning in close liaison with Pakistan, will have its own agenda.

In this case, the Taliban’s guest, Osama bin Laden, had his own axe to grind. He may not have been averse to the jehad in Kashmir, Chechnya and elsewhere. But the US was the bee in his bonnet. However, his game plan did not suit Pakistan.

The latter was interested in the jehadi campaign only in Kashmir. But Islamabad did not adequately take into account how the spread of Islamic terrorism will undermine its endeavours in the Indian province also.

So, when Osama, the loose cannon, and his host, the Taliban, upset Pakistan’s plans by taking on the Big Satan himself, Pakistan was wrong-footed in a manner it clearly did not anticipate. As a result, what was a ‘correct’ policy of sustaining the Taliban till September 10 became its opposite the next day.

The somersault has landed Pakistan in a quandary. In a way, its present travails are worse than what happened in 1971. The loss of its eastern wing was perhaps a blessing in disguise. It was an artificial arrangement anyway, whose structural flaws date even further back than the anti-Urdu agitations of 1952 in East Pakistan, which are widely regarded as marking the beginning of the rift.

However, as Sir Malcolm Hailey, Governor of UP, noted way back in 1925: “They (Punjabi Muslims) see that they can never have quite the same interests as Muslims in the provinces with large Hindu majorities and they seriously think of breaking away from the

All India Muslim League and starting a Federation of their own. This will seek to embrace the Punjab, parts of UP, the North-West Frontier, Baluchistan and Sind... this in itself is only a preparation for a larger Federation which shall embrace Afghanistan and perhaps Persia.

“You will notice that the dream of the future... does not include Bengal. For the moment, the northern Indian Moslem has given up his co-religionist in Bengal as hopeless...”

Commenting on this passage, David Page writes in the Prelude to Partition that “twenty years before the creation of Pakistan and forty-five years before the creation of Bangladesh, these were prophetic insights”.

But even if the distance between the north-western and eastern parts of the subcontinent is vast, Pakistan might not have disintegrated if it was a democracy. Only a military junta could have thought of crushing the uprising in East Pakistan by the sheer use of force. Similarly, only a dictator could have sought to use Islamic terrorism in a bid to acquire Kashmir.

True, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif pursued virtually the same line. But, first, they inherited the policy from an earlier dictator. Secondly, the army and the ISI were probably not totally under their control. And, thirdly, Nawaz Sharif did remove the aggressive Gauhar Ayub from the foreign ministry and showed signs of moderation in Lahore.

But, more than anything else, a civilian ruler might have shown greater awareness of the threat posed to Pakistani society by the fires of fundamentalism.

Three decades after the loss of its eastern wing, Pakistan has lost its ‘strategic depth’ in the west also. Even a neutral government in Kabul, let alone an India-friendly one, will be a cause for Pakistan’s despair.

The reason will have less to do with Pakistan’s vulnerability than with the collapse of its entire Kashmir policy.

All its puppets — Hurriyat, Hizb-ul Mujahideen, Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, Jaish-e-Mohammed — will realise that the revulsion against terrorism will rule out their modus operandi — mindless acts of violence.

Pakistan’s misfortunes are its own creation. Formed on the basis of a theory whose fatuity was exposed in 1971, it never evolved into a modern State whose indispensable ingredient is democracy.

The country has been ill-served by its leaders — the tinpot dictators and venal politicians. It has been ill-served by its friends as well —- the US and China, the latter helping it with its nuclear programme and the former turning a blind eye to its misdemeanours. Such coddling convinced Pakistan that it could use the Taliban to harass India.

But it only hurt itself.

Yehuda Goldsteen----458:

You are a welcome addition to this forum.

Some folks here are accusing you of being incognito & under camaflouge,that you really are Baharatya Musulmaan.Maybe maybe not.Ignore them!

Now you might be interested to know that Bharatyaa Musulmaan is really a haraami,kind of like a b-astard,in english.You need not worry you are not him.You instead are a proud Israeli,the natural offspring of the Gentile & the Jew--an accomplishment which few can claim.

It is entirely possible that the harami BM still visits here to counter this allegations about his pedigree but be assured he is no threat to your identity.Please continue the noble performance of frothing at the mouth and spewing hatred about those who are a thorn in your conscience---it is great catharisis.It always happens to those who use something not theirs but take it without the owners permission.

As you are daily experiencing your present is glowing & your future is bright(hot).

DRUMZ---461(?)

You seem to be a phenomenon & make me kind of envious when I think that you are only 21.Now please don`t let this go to your head because nothing could be so unfriendly as this unabashed adulation.

You must have had the privilege of a great headstart--family & mentoring etc.I am all the more happy for you.Please give some hints if you feel like.

Ibn Arabi took the route you are taking.Full of pitfalls & perils but with huge reward & compensation for it.This route is not for the weak of heart,mind,& faith.Few have come out intact....but then it is Allah who bestows such gifts upon even a fewer number.

re: semipreciousme

``...lol...don`t shoot the messenger...and you wouldn`t happen to know a certain yahuda goldsteen, now would you....and how is bm`s book coming along?...i recall..er..``him``....mentioning smt to the effect...:)``

i wish i knew mr. goldsteen, but unfortunately i don`t...as for mr. bm, i thought we were buds, but he hasn`t been responding to my e-mails lately...hehe

btw, with our knicks coach gone now, your think mr. jordan would like the job? :)

Harpreet: I take great pride in being a kaffir. Its one my greatest achievements. Now if I could only get a Fatwa, that would make my day!

Semi: I politely disagree, he always talks like that, unless Im missing something..

Hobby: Well, other fields of knowledge clearly cannot go beyond a certain point. There are somethings we cannot know. Science simply explains what the first thing was and what it did. It cannot explain how/why it happened (big bang). This gives common folk the idea that science actually knows something when it doesnt.

Mathematics is perhaps the only factual basis for understanding Allah. Look at the zero. Is it not absolute? Its undefinable yet no mathematical equation would work without it. Then there is pi or infiniti...

I was at a mosque today and a brother like you was talking about how Muslims need to reaffirm their iman. I disagree. Religion is not the most important thing in both life and spirituality. When people confuse the ocean (allah) for the stream (islam), they consider the stream as being absolute. Thus they must preserve it, bla bla. I think there are far more pressing issues out there then Islam (i think muhammed would agree also, lol). When someone is shot, u dont read him the kilma. Your priorities change.

We need to concentrate on the betterment of humanity, not islamia. but, if one wants to do the latter only, he needs to know what is important to the muslim world. Not some ancient little verse! Many of us live in poverty stricken countries. Mother teresa and gandhi were likely the greatest Muslims of the last century. Not shariarti or whomever is the new guiding light.

America is not going anywhere. It will continue to inflict genocide on the masses for years to come. We need to begin concentrating on within. Why are muslims so quick to blame the jews/americans and never their own currupt politicians. Muslims have killed more muslims then america ever has. Trust that.

Religion is a movement, if it cannot change then its simply nationalization (arab in the case of islam) or more accurately, slavery. People bind themselves to tradition cuz they see mecca as some kind of eden. It is not, they were primitive people. The guidance of primitive people doesnt apply to US.

Im kinda like hamid. Ive decided to spend the next 15 years to find out who i am not. After then ill try to accept some sort of ideology.

God bless you hobby, an enlightened muslim is a needle in a haystack.

re: rage #451

...genius, in case your a$$ dun realize it, there are no jews reading that stuff...

warpster #445 Thanks for the humor break. The onion is one of the funniest websites on the internet.

Rage #451 Please dont fall to the level of Goldsteen. There are a couple of percent of sick and bloodthirsty individuals like him in every society, and as such we should not consider such individuals as representing anyone other than themselves.

Rdesikan #15: Do you think RAW could have organized this attack?

I would be interested in your reasons on why it could or couldn`t have.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for Indians to worry about the terrorist attacks in India, and let Pakistan worry about those in Pakistan.

Currently, the general Indian thought process is that any terrorist attack in India is Pakistan`s fault, and any terrorist attack in Pakistan is Pakistan`s fault also. Does this make sense?

Either every attack in India is Pakistan`s fault, and every attack in Pakistan is India`s fault, or each attack within each country is its own fault.

I would suggest joint international investigations into all such terrorist attacks, before placing blame. I am not quite sure how Indians know, without proof, that every attack in India is Pakistan`s fault, as is every attack in Pakistan.

Could Pakistan make a statement that this attack was organized by RAW (I hope it doesn`t). But how would that be any different than India always making a statement that every attack in India is organized by the ISI?

RSaxena:

``..hey, i`m forwarding this to bharatiya musalman...he won`t like you dissing him like that...and i don`t like it either...that`s it, no more friendly discourse with you ;)``

...lol...don`t shoot the messenger...and you wouldn`t happen to know a certain yahuda goldsteen, now would you....and how is bm`s book coming along?...i recall..er..``him``....mentioning smt to the effect...:)

Abdullah visit on the cards

Pramit Pal Chaudhuri

New Delhi, December 9

The Foreign Minister of the interim Afghan administration, Abdullah Abdullah, will visit New Delhi on Wednesday. This will be his first official foreign destination since being appointed to the Foreign Ministry.

Abdullah’s visit, closely following Afghan Interior Minister Yunus Qanooni’s arrival here, reflects India’s influence with Kabul, and is a clear signal that Northern Alliance leaders are grateful for India’s support. It also indicates that Alliance leaders are still wary of Pakistan.

Abdullah is scheduled to meet his Indian counterpart, Jaswant Singh, Home Minister L.K. Advani and Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

The Afghan leader will leave India on Friday. He is likely to meet the Prime Minister on Thursday.

Among the issues that are likely to be discussed will be the stability of the new regime. The fact that some warlords like Abdul Rashid Dostum are not going to support it gives this question some urgency.

The role of Afghanistan’s neighbours, especially Pakistan and Iran, which has been supportive of the Alliance but is now wary of the degree of western influence over the new regime in Kabul, will also be discussed.

New Delhi considers Abdullah, who has long been the Northern Alliance’s Foreign Minister, Kabul’s most ardent Indophile. Like Qanooni, Abdullah has close relatives in New Delhi.

Abdullah was one of the closest confidants of the murdered Ahmad Shah Masood and is widely seen as the inheritor of Masood’s legacy.

He played a key role in overcoming the Alliance’s initial distrust of India — a dislike derived from India’s support of the Soviet invasion.

A physician by training and fluent in English, he has impressed Western diplomats as well. Those who have negotiated with Abdullah describe him as frank, straightforward and, unlike many Afghans, careful to promise only what he can deliver.

Like many of the new generation of Afghan leaders, Abdullah is not a prisoner to ethnicity.

His mother is a Kandahari Pashtun and his father a Panjshir valley Tajik.

Qanooni is Tajik but is married to a Pashtun. In fact, Hamid Karzai, the head of the interim Afghan regime, also sees himself as Afghan rather than Pashtun.

Qanooni and Abdullah were crucial in sidelining Tajik leaders like Burhanuddin Rabbani who opposed sharing power with Pashtuns or allowing a multinational presence.(HT)

Re: In defense of trade

Guys,

We need a paradigm shift in our thinking. We seem, on this chowk, to be a benighted lot, always accusing and finding fault with each other. Fortunately, there are some out there who can think clearly now and then. This guy, Kunwar Idris, writing in Dawn (``Relations with India``), argues for a free trade with India as well as with rest of countries in the subcontinent. This is something close to my heart. I feel that a good trade and free mobility between people of 2 countries will solve a lot of problems and will create a groundswell of public opinion in favor of solving the Kashmir issue.

URL: http://www.dawn.com/2001/12/09/op.htm

Excerpts:

``South Asia comprising the old subcontinent, Sri Lanka and Maldives, for its geographical contiguity, vast manpower and variety of landscape constitutes a promising economic block especially for trading commodities and tourism. Taking tourism as an example, if South Asia with its Hindukush and Himalayas, Sunderbans and beaches of Indian ocean, linked by road and rail without travel restrictions, were to get just ten per cent of the world tourism income it would earn 30 billion dollars a year.``

And here is the best part of the article:

``The intractable Kashmir dispute which has defied solution despite the plebiscite resolutions, bilateral negotiations, internal elections and the 12-year long people`s armed uprising supported by Pakistan may also discover a solution in the congenial economic background thus created and save the two countries more wars and huge defence costs.``

In religious defense of such a trade block, the writer goes on to say:

``A South Asian economic bloc should pose no threat to the faith or culture of Pakistan as it will embrace almost half of the world`s umma. The old saints of amity will take care of the new hatreds and animosities. They belong to all faiths of the subcontinent. The prince among them all, Sultanul Hind and cherisher of the poor without distinction, lies buried in India.``

So, i say, let us chart a new course. Let trade and economic policies dictate political issues. As i have remarked earlier, success of economic policies depend upon how successful Pak is in reverting to democracy without army influence.

Sridhar

Re: Urstruly DILEMA NO. 3

Urstruly, wait, there is DILEMA NO. 4 as well.

How come the US govt. is interested in interviewing only Pakistani nuclear weapons scientists and not the Indian ones? Why do newspapers like the NY Times run stories like `Nuclear Experts in Pakistan May Have Links to Al Qaeda`, and not insinuate Indian scientists as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/09/international/asia/09NUKE.html

Salom to you all, JEOPARDY game is going to have a special this year. The winner will get a small discount with lots of interest and APRs on a scholarship to attend a Jewish bank of choice. The categories will be Jews, Jews, Jewish Culture, hypocrisy, double standards, lying and Terrorism. Following are the questions to be asked.

How many Polo sweets have to be on the ground before a Jew will bend down to pick them up?

Which facial feature of an orthodox Jew is designed for two TNT explosive sticks to be shoved into: the mouth or the sideburns?

What do the phrases, ``stingey,`` ``tight fisted,`` ``miserly,`` and ``tighter than a Jewish virgin,`` have in common?

Why do Jewish women shave their scalp hair off and then wear a wig, after they are married

Who in hell would want to marry a Jewish woman?

For that matter, who in the blue hell would want to marry a Jew?

What percentage of Jews would roll over if the Wailing Wall was not present.

How many cents have to be on the ground before a Jew bends down to pick them up.

Stir fry cooking was made in order to cut down on wooden fuel consumption. True or false; was the inventor of such cooking a Jew?

True or false: Jewish noses are large enough to launch rockets.

True or false: Jewish arses are so tight that they have to sh1t through their mouth.

re: semipreciousme

``….yasser, chill….it’s so obvious this baharitya musalman incarnate is trying to get to you…don’t fall hook, line and sinker every time…``

..hey, i`m forwarding this to bharatiya musalman...he won`t like you dissing him like that...and i don`t like it either...that`s it, no more friendly discourse with you ;)

re: ylh

``If hypothetically speaking, Pakistan had developed as a perfect democracy with equal rights to all, will you still object to its creation on the basis of Muslim nationhood and if yes, then do you feel you are being hypocritical?``

...the analogy to Pakistan`s creation is not the creation of Israel...the analogy would be if American Jews decided they did not want to be a part of America`s multi-religious fabric and wanted their own Jewish state carved out of America...

having said that, before you start jumping and hopping, let me assure you once again that i am now glad that pakistan was created and hope to see it even more separated from india...there are enough problems in india, we surely wouldn`t have needed a few hundred million people who can`t even sustain democracy to be a part of india...

Nasah,

I`d gladly be associated with BJP and the Hindu Nationalists then be associated with hypocrites who talk about `secularism` and yet are without any regard for its basic principles. I must say your `ramblings` on the net aren`t any better than the overwhelming majority of your Indian Muslim brethren.

Maybe it hasn`t been clear to you, I prefer to be known as a Pakistani student not a Muslim student, and I dont consider Indian Muslims to be my brethren.

-A Reformist Modernist Democratic `Pakistani` Student.

DILEMA NO. 3

Lets admit it that a myriad of the most draconian laws in the civilized world are have recently been inacted in the US. Some laws such as SEcret Evidence Act and Interim Rule (most recent one) deny the basic human right of due process of law. THe laws under which a specific racial group (people of middle eastern orgin) are being targeted are out right racist. A couple of days ago when John Ashcroft had to defend his case in front of Senate Judicial Committee headed by Senator Leahy (Anthrax fame) the right wing media blamed liberal Leahy & company being unpatriotic etc. Such laws are being enacted with the reason that they are necessary for national security.

On the home front we have a country which calls itself secular and democratic i.e india and have horrible Laws such as Disturbed area act of 1990, due to which 75,000-80,000 Kashmiris have lost their lives, millions have lost the right to a fair trial and due process of law, and have their citizenship rights revoked. The same country has law called TADA and now POTO, which are just a travesty of justice and fairness. The reason in this case is also patriotic and security of nation.

The third case is of Paksitan where laws such as Blasphemy law, and Ahmadia laws under PPC 298 are enacted to maintain order in the society. And to protect the lives and properties of both Ahmadis and Muslims from each other. No one is denied the due process of law-no one`s citizenship rights as minority and majority are revoked-and cases are presented in open courts-all accused are innocent until proven guilty-they have a right to an attorney, both self and court appointed.

The delima in all three cases is that: why first two cases are justified and not the third one.

All are welcome to this debate.

A humor break from www.theonion.com

--

GHAZNI, AFGHANISTAN—Outraged by the recent loosening of dress codes in her country, burqa wearer Uliya Salah condemned fellow Afghani Raheela Asaad Monday for appearing in public wearing an upper-face-revealing chador.

``Just look how she dresses, the bridge of her nose visible for all the world to see,`` said Salah, watching Asaad walk past her in downtown Ghazni. ``Has she no shame?``

Not wanting to risk the chance that a stranger might be forced to hear a woman`s voice, Salah whispered her indignant remarks through the small mesh square in her garment.

``Perhaps one could wear that sort of thing in the deepest recesses of one`s home, where even male family members are not allowed,`` Salah said. ``But doing so in public like that is outrageous. The harlot may as well strip off her veil and reveal her hair to the world.``

As a strict follower of Pashtun traditions, Salah said she finds it laughable that Asaad considers herself to be a devout Muslim.

``[Asaad] is clearly pursuing her darkest passions,`` Salah said. ``Now that the Taliban is no longer here to protect their virtue, many of the women in the city have begun to walk around in shockingly immodest garb, shamelessly wearing next to nothing on their hands.``

Asaad`s garment was not only too revealing, Salah said, but it also bore numerous decorative touches—a mark of the sin of vanity.

``Did you see that small line of embroidery at the border of her veil?`` Salah asked. ``What is next? A series of stripes at the hem of the garment near the ankles? I pray to Allah that I never see the day.``

Salah has been in a near-constant state of outrage since Nov. 13, when the Taliban was ousted from her village. On that day, emboldened by the Northern Alliance victory, hundreds of women threw off their conservative burqas in favor of skimpy, low-cut chadors that exposed portions of their faces.

``It is sinful for a woman to tempt a man by revealing the color of her eyes to him,`` Salah said. ``But the women around here leave nothing to the imagination. The pupil, the iris, the cornea... It`s all right out there in the open for men to ogle.``

Now that dressing less conservatively no longer carries the risk of public whipping, Asaad said she may wear jewelry or Western fashions beneath her chador.

``It is an important part of both my religion and my culture to observe full hajib,`` said Asaad, who has worn traditional garb since she was 13. ``I keep my body covered when in the presence of men. In the mosque, I am careful to keep my eyes lowered at all times. But it would be nice to wear something different once in a while, like a shoe with an attractive but respectful heel.``

Salah was outraged by the notion.

``Only whores of Babylon wear heels!`` Salah said. ``Under the Taliban, it was illegal to wear high heels or any other shoe that produces a sound when walking, because a man must not hear a woman`s footsteps. What is this world coming to?``

Asaad said she is eager to return to her old life, before she was confined to her house and only allowed outside when escorted by a male relative.

``Of course, there are many things women should not do, like watch television or go to dances or read Western fashion magazines,`` Asaad said. ``But I did miss being able to leave the house.``

Asaad said she also hopes to return to school-teaching, which was her occupation before the Taliban forbade women from working.

``I taught math and reading and other subjects to young girls,`` Asaad said. ``I taught them how to read the words of the prophet Mohammed and how to be a devoted follower of Islam.``

Salah questioned Asaad`s claims of devotion to Islam, citing a scandal in which she was involved last year. In May 2000, despite restrictions against women being examined by men, Asaad was caught attempting to see a male physician for treatment of kidney stones. It was only through a large bribe to Taliban officials and a three-month period of seclusion in a neighboring village that she escaped execution.

``It makes me sick to look at women like Raheela Asaad,`` Salah said. ``She deserved no less a punishment than death for her blasphemy.``

Despite the scandal and her liberal interpretation of Islamic law, Asaad said she is not ashamed of her actions.

``I am proud to be a modern woman,`` Asaad said. ``I believe that women should be allowed to attend the university, so long as the school provides a separate area for women to sit in and they do not speak to the instructor before being spoken to. I even think it is acceptable for a young woman to ride a bicycle, provided she is out in the country where no man can view it. This is the 21st century, after all.``

YLH writes to dr. poonawala:

“Gladly and Good riddance. No one can accuse me of speaking on Indian Muslims behalf.

Infact, I find the majority of `Indian Muslim community` as such a scum that I`d rather die than be associated with them in anyway”.(YLH)

Dear YLH:

You’ll be happy to know that you’re not alone – in fact you’re in a small but august company, YLH.

Some of your favorite BJP people, the RSS, the Bajrang dal, the VHP, and the Shive Sena`s -- gentlemen and gentlewomen -- also -- concur with you – they also –- ``find the majority of `Indian Muslim community` as such a scum that they would rather die…”.

Perhaps ``a first rate liar`` dr. poonawala with an impermeable ``thick skull`` -– will ALSO concur with you -– he TOO would surely WISH – you and they – would/should --``rather DIE`` -– ``than be associated with them in anyway``– ``Gladly and Good riddance``.

Now that’s how a balanced and a poised -- a bright and a well bred – a modernist and a reformist – Muslim student from Pakistan -- should address his brethren on this board.

Shaabaash, jeetey raho miaN. Khoda thumeiN mughferat ataa kare.

ylh

#399

….yasser, chill….it’s so obvious this baharitya musalman incarnate is trying to get to you…don’t fall hook, line and sinker every time…

DRUMZ

Do the math people, Someone who`s just said...

1. ``exuberance``

2. ``Verbosity``

3. ``pedantic``

4. ``Sophistry``

...in five lines has NO right to demand anything in ``plain english.``

……just a wild guess, but methinks he was being derisive….as in sarcastic?…as in to drive the point home?…:)

It is indeed very gratifying to see that the people who formerly declared that `religion based nationhood is stupid and can never result in a secular state` are lauding the Israeli state as a secular state.

My argument is not that Pakistan is secular or democratic right now, for it is not, but that Pakistan was founded as a Secular state for a muslim people. Whether or not that has come true is besides the point, but previously rsaxena and others had questioned the very basis of this view calling it an Oxymoron. CLearly accepting that Israel is a secular state, Mr.Saxena has accepted that in principle it is possible for a religion based nation to create a secular state. However though Israel is a Modern Democratic state, it is not a completely secular one yet, so on an intellectual premise even this argument can be torn to shreds.

I am not sure how and why he defines Pakistan as a religious state for it is clearly less so than Israel or Iran ... he points to the blasphemy laws, one can easily point to equivalents of that in Israel, especially with the law of return and ban on non Jewish immigrants while allowing only jewish immigrants into the state of Israel. One can also point to the council of Rabbis who oversee the Israeli state and its secular polity. However the ban on non-Jewish immigrants to Israel is a necessity... that will mean a loss of character as a Jewish state. This is something that Ehud Barak the liberal left oriented leader said on Charlie Rose in response to the very same question.

Yehuda Goldsteen, sounds like you were one the Jeopardy team consulted when compiling their `questions`

`What do you expect that to prove? Mr. Kumaraswamy is expressing his opinion, just like Mr. Poonawalla did. It proves there is a range of opinions in India, nothing else.

It is far more informative to consider ground reality...there are some in India who don`t want us to get cozy with Israel..fine and dandy..but the fact is there IS a confluence of interests and hence the arms sales, border protection help, and intelligence exchanges...I`ve heard this straight from the mouths of Mr. Peres and Mr. Jaswant Singh...`

Mr. Kumaraswamy is expressing his opinion as an expert on International relations. It is clear that you didn`t even bother to read his thesis. He is clearly in favor of growing Israeli-Indian cooperation. I agree that Israel and India has a lot of basis for progress.

`As for your other post, I am afraid you are just restating your original point...Israel was founded by jews but it is far from a theocratic state...if nothing else, it is a democratic country...it respects individual liberties, something it would have great trouble with if it was a religious state...last i checked, there were no blasphemy laws in israel...`

Again these are not `definitive` issues. What is theocratic and what is not. Genuine political scientists who would contend that with all the backwardness and `blasphemy` laws Pakistan does not fulfil the requirements of theocracy. Israel with all its individual liberties and other laws does qualify as a theocratic state for it has a supreme body of religious elite overseeing the political process. With that said I agree Israel is a true Democratic state, if not a perfect one yet, and it deserves our respect.

`...we can`t get very far if you keep expounding the fact that israel was founded for jews and ignore everything else....`

That is because I am not arguing against Indian-Israel cooperation nor am I denying that Israel as a state has become much more advanced than Pakistan, primarily because Pakistan regressed in the 1980s. Nevertheless most of your assertions about Pakistan are based on your lack of knowledge about that country and your innate biases against us.

Let me restate the Question to you and please try not to respond with your amatuerish and childish sarcasm which does not in any way pass for sharp wit:

If hypothetically speaking, Pakistan had developed as a perfect democracy with equal rights to all, will you still object to its creation on the basis of