The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism

Re: Urstruly #139

Here`s a possibile answer to the false ``dilemma`` you posed. The WTC bombings were a part of a very large scale ongoing (remember what happened in 1993? to the embassies?) conspiracy with its roots in virtually every major Muslim community in the US. According to the NY Times, about 80% of the mosques in the US are controlled by Wahabi/Deobandi type fundamentalists of the stripe of the Omar Abdurrehman who was convicted in the first WTC case.

The OKC bombing was an act by a very small group (two, unless I`m remembering incorrectly and there was a third person involved?) of whackos completely unconnected to any larger ``conspiracy.``

So, you see, there is a reason why the OKC bombing didn`t have the same domestic response as the WTC one has.

Of course, this doesn`t mesh with your preconceived opinions so feel free to ignore logic and facts.

Regards.

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URSTRULY:96

While Mirasee is the subject...

This Mirasee,who loved sitaraas & dhaaree-daars,agreed to join the military only if three of his conditions were met.

1)He wanted a designer uniform--again with stars & stripes prominent.

2)Must be given endless provision of gum & cartoon-videos.

3)Would never be sent to an active war front & if so would never be subjected to ground combat.

.

AGREED! was the answer.The nation needed such volunteers because the awols were in droves.The battalions looked like they had several teeth missing.



Alas!they did not abide by the third condition.

The Star-Striped mirasee was dispatched to the war front.He was air-dropped for ground combat.

The mirasee suspected.Smelled something(not fish)of his own creation.Got Alerted.Put Plan B into action.

So when the first shot was fired from the other side the StarSpangled mirasee fell,pretending to have died.

When they approached him,one felt his body with his boot-toe.

Promptly an involuntary fart was released by the `dead` mirasee.

``Oh!he`s still alive`` said the boot.

NO No I,m not.That was the last breath that just left my body.

__________________________________________________

``Now reply to Tahmed321. I will remain focussed and Thanks to internet, I can not be pushed out physically.``

Beware of the one eyed feudal queen (in the kingdom of the blind) who can have you removed from Chowk for your opinions. Unlike Israel you must learn about the prominence of corruption on the subcontinent.

URSTRULY, a trulygood read. I guess all the stuff discussed with the kid has come to a head in this article. What I find interesting is here is a truly wonderful article, but the author i.e yourself urstruly, cannot help taking swipes you know what a mean....still I wish you could attain the same level of analytical ability in the interacts as you do in your articles.

Hope you are having a good ramzan so far.

#: 139

Urstruly

RACIAL PROFILING OF A MIND and MENTAL PROFILING OF A RACE

``Dilemma? Then try answering this question: when Timothy McVeigh blew up federal building why didn’t anyone expressed his ``concern`` that he is uncomfortable flying with a white male in his late twenties.``

In fact, McVeigh was apprehended within hours of his crime. Answer this: Was he apprehended via racial profiling? Why weren`t there any Asians in custody? This McVeigh thing has become the new ``Islamic Bomb`` and about as irrelevant.

I really enjoy the way your mind works

and would love to see more of your stuff. The dogmatic stuff doesn`t seem to fit. It`s your `wacky` paradoxical pieces that always seem to find the mark through the back door. You`re a complex kinda cat. We need more.

Re: Romair

You are partially right -- it is not just Muslims but a large number of several religious groups in India (Buddhists, Christians, Jains, Sikhs, etc) that make it imperative for a large nation that has once been divided on the basis of religion to wonder what happened -- what caused it and how can a similar holocaust be prevented. Some other societies in their misguided thinking believe that it is better to avoid debate completely, and get rid of their heterogenous groups or treat them with such scorn that their representation drops from over 25% to less than 3% in a matter of 50 years. Regards.

Urstruly

Another excellent presentation! I am in agreement with the thrust of your analysis that Osama and the movement he represents is a symptom of the dysfunction between not only in the relationship between Islamia and the ``West`` but also of the dysfunctions within these civilizations.

It is a wonderful time of introspection and growing awareness of strengths and weaknesses and a multiplicity of axis in Islamia - In the ``West``, it seems to me, a growinging awareness

a soberness of purpose. ``End of History``, it is realized, is just so much hogwash; Mankind`s search for meaning will bring it back to the essence of tradition.

Scale of interaction and competition is such that even as most people in the world seek a wider scope of the private and personal, it is the public, in the form of political action, that their interests and efficacy propel them towards. This is the explanation of the burst of ethnic conflicts in this decade. If it is true that it is because of the scale of interaction and competition, that the political realm has become the most prominent, then it seems, there is little hope that the dysfunction in the relationship between Islamia and the ``West`` will be attenuated anytime soon.

However; to the degree that shared perceptions can serve to lessen misunderstanding, then the growing emphasis on a redemptive nature of the practice of religious faith, within Islamia and the ``West`` can serve as a representation of hope.

``Civil Rights`` - these didn`t come from Sinai -on the other hand, they do form the core of the present day ``social contract`` - perhaps, their denial may have an impact on ``social obligations``. If the US is a country of laws, why then are not remedies to allegation of denial of ``rights`` being sought in courts?

Prem:

The problem of assuming actions in time and behaviour in one culture to be the same as Islam, was recognized earlier by such scholars as Shah Valliollah Delhvi - but ofcourse such ideas were not widely disseminated - Also I don`t need to remind you that ``Arab`` cultures are not a monolith.

Rsaxena to Yahuda Goldsteen,

`India should cooperate with Israel...`

Great Idea. Ironic though for less than 40 years ago, Indian Prime Minister Nehru and Egyptian Dictator Nasser were jointly condemning Israel and Pakistan.

Nehru: Israel and Pakistan are just medieval theocracies.

Nasser: Palestine (including Israel) belongs to the arabs like Kashmir belongs to India.

India`s about face is quite realistic according to the dictates of international environment.. after all, our own soldier statesman says: `National Interest is supreme`. However, it is Rsaxena`s masoomiat that I find ironic.

Sincerely

Yasser Hamdani

`So Pakistanis need to learn it that everything should not be seen as Islam-Hindu thing. Afterall, no one can tell the difference between Indian and Pakistani. You can not deny what you are.`

Yes I suppose, but then one cant tell the difference between an average Palestinian and Israeli either. Listen Yahuda, the Indian posing as Israeli, first get your logic right ok? Why is it that the logic that you keep putting up is actually quite embarrrassing for Israel itself.

-YLH

SHAMMI

You will get very little response for the ongoing Kashmir tragedy from the like of Rad Siddiqui, Wadera, YLH and others. These individuals are so indoctinated with hatred, revulsion,and loathing, that they cannot see the Kashmiri (and particularly the Kashmiri Hindu) as human. Furthermore, to them Chowk is one big game. Do you think the actual blood spilling every day in Kashmir means anything more than cocktail talk to them?

Shammi, you are a rare individual of courage to call upon Chowkies to protest the horrible killing you have cited. It is only a telling reflection upon the regular Chowkies that they have not responded to your plea. You see, their Liberalism is an armchair one. Ras Siddiqi may pen an article about Lata or Junoon. But when it really matters, when he as a Journalist should act to raise awareness of a tragedy and should use his penmanship to join in the chorus of protest against this awful genocide that you have cited, he will remain mute and silent.

Morever, by asking them to protest the death of Kashmiri Hindus, you are asking for the impossible. Do you think that even in the throes of death with the Day of Judgement hanging over their heads, they will express symphathy for the cause of the Kashmiri Hindu wedding party that was massacred. Alas, no.

You will find true symphathy for the outrageous slaying of these innocent Hindu villagers only from genuinely intellectual Pakistanis like Eqbal Ahmad, Edhi Saheb, or Ahmad Faraz. Not a bunch of fanatical nationalis sporting a veneer of Liberalism.

Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala

Shammi

It is vitally important that we maintain our Moral Edge in Kashmir. We must not go the way of Israel, getting caught up in mutually destructive cycles of revenge and violence.

India must maintain her moral dignity. We must take forceful action against the ISI Al Qaeedaists in Kashmir. At the same time we must work hard to integrate the Kashmirs into the national mainstream.

For this hateful crime, we must respond in the noblest fashion possible. The victims who belonged to a Hindu marriage party must be honored as the WTC victims are being honored. Their memory must add to India`s resolve never to be shaken in its stand that Kashmir is an Atoot Ang.

And we must hold out the hand of friendship to Pakistan. Difficult as it is, we must recognize that those committing these crimes have been indoctrinated since childhood in hatred and thus dont understand what they are doing. Yes they are murderers. But the larger responsibility rests with the ISI which encourages and funds them. It is only be engaging with Pakistan that we will put enmity behind us.

India must back people like Benazir to the hilt. You may not know it, but the Pakistani intelligentsia are in awe of India and its achievements in art, science, journalism and other fields. They despeartely want India to play an important role in restoring democracy to Pakistan. Shahid Javed Burki has openly stated that Pakistan has a choice of being India`s Canada or Mexico. We can influence Pakistan to go the Canada route.

In fact, after the Afghanistan crisis passes, perhaps a UN Sponsored Conference on Restoring Democracy to Pakistan can be held. The US, India, UK, can play key roles as Advisors to the Conference and can help Pakistan structure a new democratic polity...a secular one modeled on the USA and India, the worlds 2 largest democracies.

Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala

Dr Poonawala

Mr Behram

I think you are partially right and I stand corrected. Iranians are proud of their past. However, the pre Muslim past survives to a much greater degree in Pakistan than in Iran.

Firtsly, Zoroastrianism as a living religion was entirely wiped out in Iran, with the few surviving Zoroastians having fled to Gujarat in India. However in the Subcontinent, the pre Islamic religion continued to thrive, and in fact remained the faith of the majority.

Dr. Ali Akbar Poonawala

Mr Farooqi

You are wrong. Islam in India and Pakistan is an Indian religion. The Qur`an Sharif remains the same, whether in Iceland or Tamilnadu. That is not what matters.

What matter is how the people inhabiting a land breathe life into a religion. The soul of a religion is ultimately expressed in how people interpret and practice it. And Indian Islam, as practiced by the average Muslim, is a totally different religion to Iranian or Arabian Islam.

The words of the Quran Sharif may be the same. But interpretations can diverge widely. In time, we may even see Subcontinental Islam evolve into a separate religion of its own.

For example, Saint Worship of an intensive kind is practiced by Indian Muslims. The same is looked upon as heathen and un Islamic by the Iranians and Arabs.

Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala

Mr Saxena,

Yes, my name is Dr Poonawala. Why do people find this name so unusual?

But to answer your question, remember that the foundations of Israel are unjust. It is a land built upon the homes of others. The Palestinian rage is justified.

Further, Sir, let me remind you that some of the most ardent Palestinian leaders like George Habash have been Christians. Likewise, the greatest Palestinian intellectual today, Edward Said, is a Protestant Christian. So, the rage you see is not ``mad Mullah disease`` as you call it, but the righteous anger of a dispossesed generation.

Please do not bucked secular India and theocratic Israel. You do India a diservice, a mighty disservice.

Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala

MBBS, MD.

Jammu

shammi#122 ``But, countries like Saudi Arabia, Gulfdoms, HAVE had affluent middle classes.`` A person belongs to the middle class if he/she has to work to earn a living and is financially comfortable. The former condition is not met by the Saudi class in power, and so the culture of democracy and freedom of expression has not found root.

``It was not the poor or the fundamentalists that created the three conditions in Pakistan (Hudood ordinance, gender inequality, usurpation of democracy) that I mentioned in an earlier post.`` Depends what you consider Zia to have been - he was clearly a fundamentalist in my view. If he had had his way, Pakistan would have been like what Afghanistan had become - as the US ex-Ambassador Kux correctly writes his book on Pakistan, Zia tried to introduce Islamic fundamentalism in Pakistan but was forced to tone it dow due to domestic opposition and so moved his ambitions into Afghanistan by building up the fundamentalists there - Afghanistan does not have the same kind of middle class. One of the proudest things I feel as a Pakistani is that when Zia tried to implement his evil punishment of amputation for theft, NOT ONE doctor could be found in Pakistan who was willing to carry it out and he had to give it up.

On women`s equality, I think the roots are poverty which makes women dependant on men to survive. Pakistani women from the middle classes are in fact very much part of economic life (no more and no less than Indian women from the middle classes, I think).