The Clash Of Un-Civilizations And Osama-ism

Well atleast Mr.Poonawallah is consistent, and not just some fabricated `Bhartiya Musalman`. Thanks for enriching us with your perspective. Can you please make it clear to Yahuda goldsteen that you are not a Pakistani but an Indian though?

Sincerely

YLH

Seems like everyone is an expert on me, just caught this gem:

`You will get very little response for the ongoing Kashmir tragedy from the like of Rad Siddiqui, Wadera, YLH and others. These individuals are so indoctinated with hatred, revulsion,and loathing, that they cannot see the Kashmiri (and particularly the Kashmiri Hindu) as human.`

I wonder if people like Mr. Poonawallah can sleep at nights after accusing someone so blatantly? I cannot in good conscience follow up with any discussion with this individual, who assumes that he has `wahi` from Allah as to what YLH feels and doesnt feel. Thank God though, unlike other Indians, Mr Poonawallah doesnt think that the entire Pakistani nation is bad... atleast there are people like Eqbal Ahmed, Ahmed Faraz, Edhi. Others dont even acknowledge that.

Having never read what I had to say, Mr. Poonawallah is pissed off at me for calling Hinduism a civilization, which is something that can be argued for and against. I had merely answered an accusation of Yahuda Goldsteen that Muslims of Pakistan dont give Hinduism the status of a civilization .. logically that accusation is inaccurate .. doesnt show my own feelings.

-YLH

re: poonawala

``Yes, my name is Dr Poonawala. Why do people find this name so unusual?``

OK....doesn`t matter what your name is...it`s just a curious name...

``But to answer your question, remember that the foundations of Israel are unjust. It is a land built upon the homes of others. The Palestinian rage is justified. Further, Sir, let me remind you that some of the most ardent Palestinian leaders like George Habash have been Christians. Likewise, the greatest Palestinian intellectual today, Edward Said, is a Protestant Christian. So, the rage you see is not ``mad Mullah disease`` as you call it, but the righteous anger of a dispossesed generation.``

For arguments sake, even if we accept that Israelis are occupying land, it is their method of protest that has degenerated into mad mullah disease..slight difference

``Please do not bucked secular India and theocratic Israel. You do India a diservice, a mighty disservice.``

...let`s do india a great service and agree to disagree on this one, but still coexist as indians...

re: ylh

``Great Idea. Ironic though for less than 40 years ago, Indian Prime Minister Nehru and Egyptian Dictator Nasser were jointly condemning Israel and Pakistan.``

...Mr. Nehru and Mr. Nasser were perfectly entitled to have and broadcast their opinions...nothing wrong with it...doesn`t mean every Indian should agree with them, especially in a world which has changed so much since their time...

``India`s about face is quite realistic according to the dictates of international environment.. after all, our own soldier statesman says: `National Interest is supreme`. However, it is Rsaxena`s masoomiat that I find ironic.``

...there is no irony here...as i explained to the good doctor from jammu, what i oppose most is the violent jehadi methods and culture of the muslim world that palestenians have adopted...that is a common enemy both india and israel have...and both countries are the only democracies over a wide stretch of land...

Re: Dr. Ali Akbar Poonawalla

``…India must maintain her moral dignity…For this hateful crime, we must respond in the noblest fashion possible. ``

You are absolutely right about this - we should desist from responding in kind, and from stooping to the depths where these vermin reside. Let the shame of such evil acts make the perpetrators and those who give them sanctuary quiver in the face of world public opinion. Let them deny responsibility, let them look the other way while pure evil continues to emanate from where they proclaim that such acts are justifiable. India is too large, and too big to be brought down by such evil acts.

``…And we must hold out the hand of friendship to Pakistan…``

And you are right about this as well. We should hold out the hand of friendship to the `people of Pakistan`. There have been many tyrants in history (and the ISI is one of them), but never have they succeeded. Never has evil triumphed over right. Never has a tyrant not been discredited. From Hitler, to Stalin and Mao they have all fallen from grace. As they say in India`s national motto - Satyamev Jayate -- victory lies in truth.

``…Difficult as it is, we must recognize that those committing these crimes have been indoctrinated since childhood in hatred and thus don`t understand what they are doing…``

That reminds me of what Jesus Christ said at his Crucifixion, ``Forgive them, Lord. For they know not what they are doing``. My indignation does not stem from the professed religion of the victims or the perpetrators - it stems from the flawed characterization of evil perpetrators as `freedom fighters` by a newspaper no less than The Dawn. Has The Dawn, too, been indoctrinated? If it has, can the public be far behind?

Re: Tahmed321 #154

Yes, I know that you are one of the voices of reason on Chowk. When a respected newspaper such as The Dawn loses its moral judgment when it fails to distinguish between a right and a wrong, it made me sick to the stomach. When even Dawn can lose its objectivity, I doubt if any Indian overtures short of appeasement will work as long as the intended recipients exhibit the type of logic displayed by the author of the Dawn story. I am stunned that the editor of Dawn found it fit to publish the story as it was written. I doubt very much my ability to successfully reason with and to persuade the author (and opinion maker) of that article to see things otherwise. I cannot emphasize this enough, but the reaction that most Indians have to a story like that is not too different from how the American public would have reacted if the hijackers on 9/11 were called `freedom fighters`.

``…I remain convinced though that the biggest enemy we have in India and Pakistan is poverty - fix that and a lot of social evils get fixed…``

Economic poverty is certainly a big problem, but moral poverty is fast becoming a big problem too.

Re: Tahmed321 #150

``…One of the proudest things I feel as a Pakistani is that when Zia tried to implement his evil punishment of amputation for theft, NOT ONE doctor could be found in Pakistan who was willing to carry it out and he had to give it up…``

I remain convinced, as Dr. Ali Akbar Poonawalla states, that if the military/ISI leadership that lords over the ordinary Pakistanis steps aside, and does the job that it was originally hired to do, things will be better. Your example is further evidence of that point. Having interacted with you numerous times on Chowk, I will gladly put my fate in a jury that was constituted by people like you. You are, however, the lone voice on Chowk to recognize this issue as such. Many more have chosen to remain silent, or have sought moral equivalency by linking unrelated events, as my next response demonstrates.

Re: Shah

``Has not India been responsible for causing LTTE traing & supply across border to Sri Lanka?…``

No Indian government functionary will dare call the LTTE as `freedom fighters` anymore- as far back as 1987, India sent in a military force (of which over 1500 Indian soldiers died) to Sri Lanka to eliminate the LTTE - for his pains, Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated by an LTTE suicide bomber. India and the LTTE are implacable foes now, and India has woken up to the fact that it was wrong to support the LTTE for 3 years (`83-`87). I read the Dawn very frequently - but NEVER have I come across such a blatant misuse of the term `freedom` until now.

This just in from the BBC:

Indian police deny wedding killing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1684000/1684699.stm

It is pleasing to learn that 7 less people (regardless of religion, caste, civil/security affiliation) were killed in Kashmir than originally thought. However, the troubling question of quickly designating the killers as `freedom fighters` remains.

Let us read how the Paki daily ``Dawn`` reports the massacre of Hindus with DELIGHT. And read how these MURDERERS are called ``freedom fighters``. So much for the pain of innocent people being killed in Kashmir. Remember Pakis, you will PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD for every such act. We may be restrained people but we will never forget these murderers.

http://www.dawn.com/2001/12/03/top12.htm

``Seven Hindus en route to a wedding were massacred on Sunday by freedom fighters in the southern mountains of occupied Kashmir, adding to 19 deaths in overnight violence, police said.

``

Dear Dr. Poonawala:

I see that the Kashmir cause is very close to you, as it is to many others. We have not interacted before, so let me introduce myself as one who is extremely interested in the subject. I might add that my views tend to be extreme and not in consonance with what you appear to believe in. But you will also realize that the pundit issue as you see it is a recent phenomenon whereas the Kashmir problem in the main goes back many years. May I add, long before the ISI came into the picture?

However, you have talked about constructive work, towards which end most of us want to endeavour, whatever be our immediate reactions. Since you are involved with some organization at the grassroots level, I would be even more interested in getting to know about your laudable work. I am likely to visit Srinagar in January to belatedly wish a friend who got married a few months ago. I would most certainly make a trip to Jammu and it would be wonderful for me to see the good work you are doing and spread the word around.

I also need your advice. I have been asked to write for a Kashmir-based newspaper. I have at this point told them that if at all I contribute it will be non-political articles. I am wary of seeing my views on the Kashmir issue in print there, though I cannot guarantee that they would not be used. Could you please give me your honest feedback? As you can see, I view this as an aspect of responsibility, though it has nothing to do with ‘objective journalism’ about which you have been holding forth.

I would like to state here that objectivity is not the same as a balanced perspective. Each of us comes with our baggage of concerns/commitments and we choose them as we will. Even the reporting of a fire can reveal biases. And why is objectivity such a huge issue only for journalists? Don’t activists choose their causes and protest against what they think is wrong, when there could well be the other point of view? What about lawyers, educationists and er…doctors too? I hope you understand my point of view.

Regards,

Farzana Versey

Mumbai, India

PS: For those living in or visiting Mumbai, there is a great show of Naseeruddin Shah’s adaptation of Manto and Ismat Chugtai at Prithvi theatre from December 4-6. Both these were great Urdu writers and the stories deal with national pride among other things.

Poonawala

``Please do not bucked (sic) secular India and theocratic Israel. You do

India a diservice, a mighty disservice.``

Amen to that. Comparing a racist, apartheid state to a flawed but still secular state is a disservice to both. Israel takes pride in being a racist state.

#157 nasah

I like it. I like it! You pull no punches..

The IDF just the other day killed 5 palestinian school children. In Sharon`s (& Bush`s) racist logic, that was the price the palestinians paid for israel`s defence needs.

BTW, i wonder about GoldstEEn tho..

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Urstruly Reply #: 173

``The concept of Islamic Economic Block is alive, well and thriving since Jamal-ud-din Afghani envisioned it about 125 years ago. It is just a mater of time that it will materialize one day...

Just imgaine, a block of 60+ countries, which has capital, it has human resources, and natural resources, land, and a dream and will to make it come true. Just imagine we will be buying technology as a commodity like tooth brush and toilet papers. Its lot of work but it is POSSIBLE``.

I`m doing research on Islamic Economics (mainly interest-free banking and potential difficulties in its implementation). Can you please suggest some resources for this purpose?

Mr. Brad Cruise

``you are jeopardizing your cover b/c of your pre -``username`` nick enemity must i say .I have your past post to link you to your new `Username` nick ,so be carefull``

Still eagerly looking forward to see your evidence sir...

[Walker said he then was sent to the Kashmir region, where he fought with Pakistanis against Indians, and returned to Afghanistan for another month of training.]

With Pakistanis?

Read more about Pakistani military`s rape of Kabul and attempted rape of Kashmir -

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/12/03/ret.american.taliban/index.html

THE WORKING OF THE INDIAN MUSLIM MIND:

Ras, sarwar, poonawallah, and others who are interested:

The book `Man who divided India` is a significant book not as much as for its `expose` of Jinnah, for that has been rebutted rather eloquently by Mr. Najam Sethi, but for providing us with keen insight into the working of the Indian Muslim mind, and the phenomenon of religious minoritism.

Let us see the underlying argument (a common tune that every Indian Muslim harps):



THE ARGUMENT

Jinnah made Pakistan and thus divided the Muslims into three states. Today 130 Million Muslims of India are in the clutches of a Hindu Majority. Had there been no Pakistan, today Muslims would be almost as much as the Hindus and thus could be independent and stronger. We the Indian Muslims are in a miserable condition and its all because of Jinnah.



Now ladies and gentlemen the underlying premises of this argument is as follows :

THE PREMISES

1) We, the Indian Muslims of the year 2001, form a minority group.

2) We, the Indian Muslims of the year 2001, are being oppressed and its all because of Jinnah who died in the year 1948.

3) The Hindu Majority community is Evil. Pure Evil. They oppress us. They oppress us. They are evil, evil I tell you.



INCONSISTENCY

Now the same people then turn around and say the TNT is invalid. Perhaps, but if it is invalid, it is invalid in Pakistan and Bangladesh where it reached its logical conclusion with Partition. TNT , it seems continues to be valid in an Indian context though, and by the actions of the very people who decry the two nation theory. Perhaps it would be better to say that they decry the concept of Pakistan and not the two nation theory.



INDIAN MUSLIM`S CASE AGAINST JINNAH:

Now with that said the Indian Muslim`s case against Jinnah becomes even more confusing:

1) Jinnah is bad because Jinnah drank Whisky.

2) Jinnah is bad because Jinnah ate Pork.

3) Jinnah is bad because Jinnah didnt know how to pray.

4) Jinnah is bad because Jinnah made the 11th August speech where he proclaimed everyone in Pakistan equal.

5) Jinnah`s Two Nation Theory is invalid, and because he made Pakistan, he left us Muslims in the clutches of the evil evil hindus.



OTHER PLAYERS according to the Indian Muslim mind:

Gandhi: Gandhi ji is a moderate man of God, who helped us Muslims, when Jinnah had betrayed us and sold us to the rabidly fanatical Hindus.

Nehru: Pandit Nehru is a great leader who gave us secularism and saved us from the rabidly Fanatical Hindus.

Azad: True Muslim, because he was a great Islamic scholar unlike whisky drinking pork eat kafir like Jinnah. He became our leader against the rabidly fanatical Hindus.

Congress I: The only party in India which saved us from the rabidly fanatical Hindus, by giving us secularism ie our own Islamic Law.

BJP: Evil Hindu Party. Enemy of secularism, for it stands for equal rights and equal treatment for all whether minority or majority. No separate laws for Muslims or Hindus...



Diagnosis:

In my humble opinion, India`s greatest asset is its secular constitution. With 1947, one would have hoped that the Hindu Muslim divide would be a replaced with a more geographical divide ie India Pakistan. Indeed that is the reason M.A. Jinnah had said on 11th August 1947 :

`In due course of time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be muslims and we shall all become equal citizens of one state... if you ask this has been the greatest hinderance. Had it not been for this, we could have been free peoples` long time ago, for no one can hold a nation of 400 Million in subjection`

Similarly about Muslims of India he had said `Now that the decision has been taken, Muslims in India should live as loyal citizens of India forgetting boundries of religion and sectarianism.`

Instead of taking Jinnah`s advice, the Indian Muslims had rushed to A K Azad`s residence telling him `hamaray saath dhoka hua hai`. If you read Azad`s `India wins freedom`, you find a detailed description of Azad`s meeting with the Indian Muslim delegation.

The truth is that whereas the traditionally Islamic element like the Jamaat e Islami, JUH and Deobandis had opposed the creation of Pakistan on the grounds that `Muslims will become lax` and that `we should convert entire India to Islam instead of constraining Islam to one corner`.. (A very similar argument that Orthodox Jewry put against David Ben Gureon `we should take entire Palestine`), most Muslims in minority provinces had supported the AIML thinking that perhaps Dehli would be the capital of Pakistan, and Bombay will be the port, eventhough Jinnah made it abundantly clear through the Lahore resolution that Pakistan would be based on the self determination of Muslim Majority Areas as envisaged by Allama Iqbal`s Pakistan concept of 1930, thus securing some sovereignty for the `Muslims` of South Asia.

These same Muslims now curse at the man, accusing him of bad faith, a man not even his opponents accused of bad faith. Ah well. Life sux.



THE CURE:

The solution to the dilemma that Dr Zakaria, the moderate Muslim, finds himself in is to give up the cultural distinction of Being a Muslim and become an Indian first second and last.

Similarly we in Pakistan should give up all cultural distinctions and become Pakistanis first second and last, and leave the distinctions of religion caste or creed.

The words of Jinnah, whether you agree with the man or not, hate him or love him, or consider him a megalomaniac, a savior, a hate monger, a power hungry politician, an Islamic hero, a secularist, or a traitor to Islam,

{`You may belong to any religion caste or creed- that has nothing to do with the business of the state` (11th August 1947)

and

`The modern state will be a modern democratic state with sovereignty resting in the members of the new state, regardless of religion caste or creed.` (21st May 1947, an interview with Doon Campbell)}

remain valid for both Pakistan and India.

Urstruly #168,

listen, you wanted my opinion/analysis/whatever and i gave it to you. take it like a man and don`t whine about the conclusions i`ve drawn...don`t we all draw our own personal conclusions after reading something? we don`t all think alike you know.

why even feel as though u`re responsible for my conclusions?

you might be able to feel ``objectively`` about Bin Laden, but as a New Yorker and a human being, I don`t think i can. i can`t feel objectivity for any person or institution that kills innocent people or encourages the subjugation of women.

before you get defensive, your article wasn`t bad. yes it was written well and thought out well and well researched, etc etc...



i just didn`t agree with it, or feel `moved` by it in any way. i have a right to that don`t i?