An International Failure

Ferozek# 130, Sadna # 135

Good discussion. This notion of hegemony in the South Asian context is very important. We Indians really have no clue what many Pakistanis mean by Indian hegemony.

It will be really helpful to learn how some/most/even all Pakistanis see this issue. I hope others will join in this discussion as well.

Re: Romair

``...I can make a bet there will be free and fair elections in ten months...``

We all hope for the best, but fear the worst. Ejaz Haider of the Friday Times agrees:

`Military to block win by PPP `

``The military government wants a weak and pliable political government. That can be achieved through a national security council (NSC), headed by the president...`` END OF QUOTE

How is that different from what was attempted in the 90s? In fact, this arrangement will be worse than an all-military or all-civil govt. since it will enable all concerned to shirk from responsibility and pass the buck -- the military to the civilians, and vice versa. Just as BB is doing now, and the General did when he assumed power. Sigh! Somethings never change.

AhaaNN!So this is where it all began--The lab test of TNT and vision of Secularism.What else are they not teaching at the M for malichh schools.Jay?

Muslims allowed in Hindu hostel after 103 years

Updated on 2001-12-10 12:01:19



KOLKATA, December 10 (PNS): After a century of religious discrimination, Muslim students have finally started finding a place in the hostel of Kolkata`s most prestigious college following government intervention, IANS reports.

Presidency College`s Hindu Hostel was barred for Muslim students for 103 years. In 1999, the West Bengal government directed the college to do away with the discrimination.

But no Muslim student got a place in the hostel until this session when three Muslims gained entry.

The discriminatory policy was adopted in 1896 when the provincial government took over the college management on the condition that Muslim boarders would not be allowed to reside in it. Christian, Buddhist and Jain boarders, however, were allowed to stay in the hostel.

While Muslims have been allowed into Hindu Hostel, some students` organisations have demanded students from the college and other communities were allowed to stay in Muslims hostels in the city.

End.

Ferozk #130
``because the job of hegemon is to make sure that the system works and is not to upset it. A hegemon needs to satisfy the weaker nations by being a good influence and not a bad one. ``

Ferozk, to my layman ears, hegemony is a term with a negative connotation of undue and forced dominance in the others affairs, surely. Are these the only terms for India to deal with neighbours who are smaller?

For example, isn`t it possible for India to have peaceful relations with a more powerful China without either India `accepting` the hegemony of China, or without India countering its power imbalance with China through interference in its internal affairs.. The same with say, the US and Mexico or India and Bangladesh.

Just to understand, specifically do you happen to equate ``India maintaining status quo on Kashmir`` with ``India being a regional hegemon`` ?

And my compliments to you,too.. :)

Re: Ferozk

``...Kunwar Idres! Are you kidding me! :)...``

OK -- educate me. I (having grown up in India) have absolutely no idea who Kunwar Idris is (it appears from your post that he has a lot of baggage). What caught my attention were his ideas. So, tell me what`s wrong with his ideas. Or better yet, tell me how you expect your three major points (a) normalization of relations with India, (b) military returning to the barracks, (c) separation of Kashmir policy from overall Pakistan foreign policy, to be implemented by the Army -- an institution whose corporate interests are better served if (a), (b) and (c) are not achieved. Ciao (as you would put it).

How does this affect Pakistani foreign policy towards India?

{{Afghan FM visiting India to forge closer ties



NEW DELHI: Attaching importance to forging closer relations with India, the new Afghan regime is sending foreign minister Abdullah Abdullah here for discussions with Indian leaders on a two-day visit from Wednesday.

Abdullah`s visit, coming close on the heels of the visit by interior minister Younuos Qanooni, is also aimed at conveying to New Delhi the new interim administration`s appreciation of India`s consistent support for the Northern Alliance, officials said.

The Afghan minister is expected to call on Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and have talks with External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh and Home Minister L K Advani during his stay here.

Abdullah, who has been in the forefront of the Northern Alliance`s long struggle against the Taliban, has maintained close contacts with Indian leaders over the years.}}

``….but don’t those secret agency types need expensive high-tech gizmos?….you know to prevent tracing/eavesdropping etc. …``

i dunno but ill ask if he has like a scrambler attached to the thing...waisae it is all pretty exciting..this other man with uncle nice celll phone was insisting he refused to take protection with him anywhere...`allah daikhta hae bhai`..i couldnt help snorting and saying jee aur yae hamarae peechhae garee mae kaun loge baithae hain? my brother kiked me real hard under the table and now my parents refuse to take me anywhere :( such kee koee qeemat hee nahin..they were plain clothed men i swear

sameersaab (no i CANNOT call you sameer) im sorry i didnt reply sooner...was so busy trying to get under unkal jays skin i missed your post entirely..rozaeh ab bohat ziada lag rahae hain mujhae...10 minutes before iftaar i feel im going to die...yes ure right,ours open a little later than the sunnis (which is rather annoying because by the time my time to eat comes, all the good things are over..very greedy people, sunni`s) i asked my dad just a few days ago why this difference...we apparently believe in opening it after sunset..in the NIGHT while sunnis AT sunset..there is a specific ayat that i red to this effectif u are interested..

ure right about tariq road...we got stuck in a traffic jam last night and got home at 2in the night..my brother says he is never taking me anywhere for the next 25 years..but i got such pretty bangles:)...u dont worry..ill be sure to look smashing this eid... :0)

p.s: how do you people in the U.S celebrate sameersaab? where do u get shalwar kameez from? sheerkhuma?

Re: sadna

My compliments to you! :)

That is what I was asking, because the job of hegemon is to make sure that the system works and is not to upset it. A hegemon needs to satisfy the weaker nations by being a good influence and not a bad one.

If India becomes the hegemon and it joins the club, can India convince its neighbors that its hegemony will better instead of being worse? for them?

Re: Shammi

Kunwar Idres!

Are you kidding me! :)

Ciao

Dear Shammi:

#114



Re: Yahooda Goldsteen

``..(Palestinians have) no roots. They are unclean. Dirty. Smelly. Hungry...``(Y Goldsteen)

Granted, they have had atrocious leadership, but that is not reason enough to describe them in the same manner as Goebbels` & Himmler`s henchmen once described the Jews. Think about it.``(Shammi)

Well said, my friend.

Isn`t it interesting -- how easily yesterday`s PERSECUTED become today`s PERSECUTERS.

It’s simply astonishing -- how much of their TORMENTORs Nazis -- has RUBBED on them -- and they don`t even think about it.

They think that through sheer terror and brutality -- they will keep the Palestinian people cowered down – deprived of their rights -- their lands, country, and freedom --in the 21st century -- for ever!

If brutality and use of naked force would be the ticket to success -- to keep a community in bondage for ever -- then the Nazis would still be the MASTERS of Europe and the world.

War Criminal Sharon -- the mass murderer of Sabra and Shattila -- IS headed for Hague Tribunal.

One of these days he will OVERPLAY his BLOODY hands just like OBL did on 9/11 -- as all TYRANTS do one day -- and the World including Europe and US -- will put a noose around the Fuehrer’s neck -- despite those holocaust museums -- and despie that Zionist axiom – whenever Israel falls in the ditch of moral turpitude – start showing those holocaust movies.

I think it’s TIME -- Likud’s Israel -- starts showing the HOLOCAUST MOVIES all over the world.

``Now they will have girls, and wine, and music, and all the things forbidden to them here on earth. Now they will be happy, as we who remain can never be here on earth.``

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/10/international/asia/10JIHA.html?pagewanted=all

These nitwits really believe that. They should be packed off to their forbidden girls, wine, and music in an express train without breaks.

Behude # 124

If I ever ``defrock`` before you, you will run faster than Michael Johnson on drugs.

rsidhar #118: ``Pak`s long term interest lies in being democratic.``

There is no way anyone can disagree with this. This is true for every country. However, if I could have my way, Pakistan would only return to the, ``democracy`` of BB and NS, over my dead body. Pakistan needs a true devolution of power to the lowest level for democracy to take root. It also needs to get women involved in the whole process. Luckily, this is what Musharraf`s govt. is attempting to do.

Pakistan needs a non-feudal democracy. If 62% of Pakistani seats continue to go to feudals (as in the last elections), Pakistan will never have democracy. The whole cornerstone of democracy is to be able to vote out incompetent leaders. What chance is there of voting out feudals (Benazir, being one example) from their feudal constituencies. BB could nominate her pet dog (seriously) from Larkana, and it would win the election, by a landslide. Feudals are dictators within their own constituencies. There is hope for democracy in urban Pakistan, but what can 38% of urban Pakistan do against 62% feudal Pakistan. Musharraf`s govt. has sidelined the Beards, it has balanced out the military, it has decreased the massive powers of the beaurecracy, it has neutralized the corrupt businessman, and has reoriented Pakistan`s foreign policy. Now it just needs to divide the land holdings of the feudal. All of this will pay off big time, in five to ten years. But all of this is worth nothing if the feudal cannot be neutralized, and is allowed to get 62% of the seats in the govt.

``Me think Cowasjee is getting senile if he thinks Mushy is the best bet for Pakistan.``

Cowasjee may be many things, but he is definitely not senile. He has been around, and understands Pakistani leadership better than anyone else. He is friends with all of them, and has taken on all of them.

But not only Cowasjee, other credible journalists who have taken on or written against various regimes, like Sethi, Ayaz Amir, Mazdak etc. now support Musharraf, also. Of course, tail-chasing opportunists like Benazir and Chowk`s very own Mushahid Hussain may not be too fond of Musharraf.

``It remains to be seen if Musharraf is sincere about ushering in democracy in Pak or is simply interested in hanging on to power.``

I can make a bet there will be free and fair elections in ten months. If not, then my whole assessment of Musharraf is out the door, as will be my good or bad assessment of all Generals. Being the COAS is an extremely powerful position in Pakistan. Given the choice, I would prefer it over being President and Prime Minister. It has all the powers, without the hassles, and a lot more respect, than other senior positions in Pakistan. The only motivation of being the President, if one is already the COAS, is to make money or to carry out reform (or an inflated opinion of oneself, in turning Pakistan into Saudi Arabia or Turkey). So far, Musharraf has not made any money for himself, and has not been arrogant enough to force his own personality on all us Pakistanis (he is personally a flaming liberal; drinks, dances, the whole nine yards). So one has to assume, he is sincere; at least according to Pakistan`s top credible journalists.

``He had no choice in the matter of supporting USA in their fight against terrorism.``

Musharraf took huge risks in supporting the USA. I believe he was on the Al-Qaeeda hit list, and was given historically high security when he visited the USA. And he took on the religious right in Pakistan, big time. That takes a lot of guts, and no one in thirty years has had the courage to do so. He had a lot to lose both ways, in supporting the USA, or supporting the religious right. He made the right choice.

It is true he could not have opposed the USA, but he could have remained neutral, or supported a little bit, like Iran did, without too many risks. What did the USA do to Iran? Nothing. The USA would not have turned a nuclearly armed Pakistan into an enemy, even if Musharraf had not given unstinted support. So, he did take a lot of personal risks, that he did not have to.

scout #127: I agree wholeheartedly. Chowk is now turned into a political forum.

Even Chowk wants to discuss these issues, it can be done through poetry, stories, etc., instead of just straight political articles.

A close friend of mine is writing some chapters that go into the details of such issues like terrorism, US Govt., Kashmiri fighters etc. Chowk published the first few chapters of his novel, but hasn`t published the subsequent (did he piss off some of the person who makes the decisions on Chowk). He has now been contacted by other sites to publish it, and Chowk may have just lost the story. Things like that would cover both politics and literature.

An even bigger mystery than Al-Qaeda is how stories get published on Chowk. Who decides? What are their moods? What do they look for? Is it one person, or a machine? Is nepotism allowed? If not, why are the same people published again and again, even when many of them cannot write, nor make much sense? Is it a Perl script that uses a random no. generator to pick up the stories after specified intervals, in which they are published?

Who is this mysterious entity called, ``Chowk Staff?`` Is it male(s) or female(s)? I used to think it was Vereesh in India, combined with a few other people in Pakistan. Now, I am thinking it is one of the Binas. Then again, are all the Binas the same person?

Under the public information act, I demand that we be told.

anNy

“…its this beautiful gorgeous to die for silver thing that my brother informs me costs no less than more than a lakh..”

….but don’t those secret agency types need expensive high-tech gizmos?….you know to prevent tracing/eavesdropping etc. …

Fuzair:

“Cowasjee, who must be pushing 80 by now, is one of the last of those who personally knew Mr. Jinnah--ham-sandwich chomping, whiskey swilling Muslim that he was--and virtually everybody who is/was anybody in Pakistan until Gen. Zia`s time. Of course, Cowasjee is also a Parsi, so everything he says can be safely discarded”

….i’m in love with cowasjee sahib….probably one of the most patriotic pakistanis alive…his family’s done so much work for underprivileged children in khi…and him and ronald de souza alone have made the worthless pieces of s * * * that make up the khi construction mafia shake in their boots…did you know that his phone’s been tapped by EVERY single gov’t that’s come into power?…(musharraf hasn’t done it…so far)….that’s how threatening they find him…

Pakistan`s foreign policy: ok, if Kashmir is integral to Pakistan, internal issue as the Pakistani government keeps saying, then why does Kashmir become central to Pakistan`s foreign policy is the question that never gets answered.

Frankly, I think Pakistan`s foreign policy exists on the basis of who is currently paying its bills. Or rather, the bills of the leaders of Pakistan. And then use debate to take the foreign policy related to the paymaster or quartermaster of the day. If you look at Pakistani history, the Pakistani foreign policy can broadly show a British era, a US era, a Saudi era and now back to a US era. With brief diversions to Turkey and China.

To some extent this used to be our tragedy in India too, a bit of a legacy from the colonial days, but over the last few decades we seem to have been able to get out of it.

Whatever.