The Forgotten Children of God

Hamidm:

I do not think that your message gets lost -- it comes through very easily. The humor actually makes it hard for one to scroll past your posts. Your counterparts in India are professional `hasya-kavis` (comic poets) who deliver their message in deadpan vernacular. One such practitioner is `Hullar Moradabadi` (I don`t know if he still his act). Perhaps, you should get one his tapes, and if you are able to understand UP Hindi, you might appreciate him.

Re: Sadna, Tahmed321

How about microlending for the `Simputer`?

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/09/magazine/09SIMPUTER.html?searchpv=nytToday

hamidm # 83

Please carry on hammering us all, Pakistanis and Indians, Hindus and Muslims. And rest assured your serious message is not lost, even if that message is often uncomfortable. It is not for nothing that some of us like to think of you as the Kabir of Chowk.

I can tell you, as a Hindu, everytime I see you making fun of Hinduism, I smile, try to see the point behind your ribbing, and work to broaden my own horizons by including a view I might have missed earlier.

Sadna,

That AngkorWat bit was hilarious. One of the funniest representations of Hinduism (funny because I think too poorly of Bible thumpers and their counterparts in other religions to waste my anger at them) I ever saw was on a ``Christian`` website. The opening gamit on that website was a picture of an old man, stooped over, seemingly throwing something into the river Ganges. The accompanying caption was: Do you know Hindus sacrifice their babies by throwing them into river Ganga? That opening was followed by a fervent appeal for dollars that could be sent to support God`s people working in India to ``save`` heathens from the darkness of Hinduism. Just # many dollars could support one of Christ`s soldiers for an entire year, the site enthused.

Somehow that imagery has stuck in my mind.

re: ylh

``I disagree with the principle of discrimination on the basis of faith and conscience but I don`t see an equivalence with discrimination on the basis of color, race or accident of birth.``

selective reasoning eh?...whatever man, i think they are both vile practices...same stinky $hit, different colors...

re: warpster

...this is a bit tangential to your post, but this culture shulture business is overrated...there are a few basic things every sane man of the 21st century truly needs, and culture fulture isn`t one of them...rain dances, riduculous headgear, rodent stew, silly prayer rituals, a large bedsheet as clothing, cacaphonous music, and ancient trinkets aren`t part of that...food, clothing, shelter, gin, and a porsche are the only essentials for a happy life...

shammi #78

..... i am glad you enjoy the humor in my posts, but i worry about the message getting lost - believe it or not there is always a serious message buried in there somewhere ..... for example, in this post i was dang serious about the ignorance of the pakistanis about any other religion other than the version of islam they grow up with.... as a result they tend to be close-minded bigots who are one step away from being a recruit for allah - and this is true for the vast majority - educated or not .......

Ref anarayan #: 76

[``Brahmins, who wielded immense power consequent to their being the sole interpretor of religious texts, have misused that position to their own advantage.``

``Brahmins were pious, scholarly people who lived modest lives. Unlike the Aristocracy in 12th century Europe, brahmins have never owned a large army, estates etc.``

Can`t make up your mind, eh ?]

Not just him. Anybody who has gone through the slanted text books written by leftist historians to serve their political agendas, who is being brainwashed by the caste-exploitation politics of the country will be confused.

Reply #: 68

rsridhar

priests) in order to maintain their superiority. Eventually, the caste system became formalised into 4 distinct classes (Varnas).``

Every society has these 4 natural divisions: A priestly class (modern day intellectuals, scientists, professionals), Warrior class (modern day rulers, politicians, army brass), Trading class (business men, traders) and the working class. These divisions exist to this day.

. Veda Vyas, one of great sages of ancient India (``Bharat``)was born to a fisher woman. He authored the great epic ``Mahabharata`` and compiled together the 4 Vedas that lay scattered over the vast subcontinent. Valmiki who wrote Ramayana was also of low caste. These 2 and many others were accepted as brahmins because of their scholarly works and constant pursuit of spirituality.

SO OF MILLIONS OF BRAHMINS ,YOU KEEP CITING 2 EXCEPTIONS ,THE SAME ONE ,repeatedly in your postas before.IS THERE ANY REASON FOR THAT ,LIKE YOUR WAITER BECOMING DOCTOR ,WHERE YOU ONE ??.nO I KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY BRAHMIN WILL PAY TO GOT TO GOT TO BE DOCTOR BRAHMIN IN DONATION MEDICAL COLLEGES OF WHICH INDIA HAS MOST!!

Swami Yogananda has given a spiritual interpretation of the caste system as it existed in vedic times. Those who strove after God without any personal gains were considered ``brahmins`` then. Kshatriyas (warrior race)were supposed to protect the subjects they ruled. They were one notch below the former. Vaishyas (traders)though remembered God now and then, were mostly engaged in materialistic pursuits (most of us would qualify for this catergory, i guess). Finally, Shudras (working class)in the past were those who only went after crass material and sensuous pleasures of life, totally forgetting the existence of God.

Yogananda in his classic 2 volume work ``God talks to Arjuna`` elaboates on the above theme in splendid fashion. Hope i have put caste system in its true perspective.

yOUR SWAMI IS NO LESS RASCIST THAN HITLER ,WHO ALSO ASSIGNED CHARACHERISTICS TO JEWS & ARYAN GERMANS WHO WAS WHAT.

INSTITUTINALIZED PHILOSOPHY & PHILOSOPHY BY CHOICE IS WHAT MARKS CLASS SYSTEM OF INDIAN HINDUS FROM WHATEVER CLASS SYSTEM YOU MIGHT BE TRYING HARD TO LINK IT TO

hamidm #67
``i am one of the few who knows anything about hinduism since i saw indiana jones and the temple of doom ..... those of us who have not seen this masterpiece are quite ignorant about this great and ancient religion ......``

hamidm, your years are showing. Here is something more current :)
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=7904353

anarayan writes

---

To put it in your terms warpster: Stop all this caste equality business. I may be a low caste, but hey...at least my life is not boring...I mean, look at these `monoculture` muslims...

---

first of all, Muslims are hardly monoculture. Even within India, contrast a tamil muslim with a UP muslim; they belong to very distinct subcultures. The Punjabi muslim is an entirely different beast. What they do have in common is a judeo-christian religion that evolved in the sands of Arabia, tends to be rigidly interpreted, and whose adherents tend to have trouble appreciating ``other`` religious belief systems. For the average muslim religion probably means more than to the average christian. All this hardly means that muslims are monoculture. Culture is a lot more than religion. I speak as a person who has had muslim friends from different parts of India (and different nations, including Pakistan), visited their homes etc.

the 2 aspects are quite independent; respect for human rights and equality on the one hand (be it caste, gender, religion, race, occupation etc.) and caste identification (identifying with the customs and traditions, religious or otherwise of the caste subculture); Any one of the 4 combinations can be true of any particular individual (I happen to believe strongly in the first aspect and have moderate caste identification;).

I would agree that in the old days (and currently in some areas) caste identity+anti human rights combination was strongly predominant. When people argue against the ``caste system`` they refer to this correlation. My contention, based on personal experience, is that for the modern, urban, Indian caste based discrimination is exceedingly rare (region based, or religion based discrimination and stereotyping, I would argue is much more common).

Both aspects have evolved quite a bit and hardly static. The notion of human rights as enshrined in many constitutions is not exactly steeped in antiquity. And often there is a lag between the legal framework and the situation on the ground.

To argue for dismantling the ``caste system``; a proposal that I take to tbe the equivalent of fashioning some post-modern common Indian culture is a fool`s errand and, in my opinion, ill advised. Arguably such a common culture is already evolving in some areas (food, clothes, popular culture) but its roots go only so far.

All I am advocating is the ``salad bowl`` philosophy. Have a healthy mix of subcultures (some, but not all, which are coincident with caste labels). This is not inconsistent with respect for human rights and equality. Of course there can be other aspects (nationality, being a cricket or chess fan) that cuts across these divisions.

To identify with one`s subculture or caste does not mean we need to be ignorant or dismissive of other subcultures around us. For example, while a lot has been written about how anti-women and revenge oriented the Afghans are, at the same time they are known for their hospitality (OBL has a lot to thank them for). Maybe we can learn from them in this regard? Diversity in the world is, in general, a good thing (analogous to the gene pool arguments for flora and fauna) and ideally, there should be a constant transmission of desirable traits (best practice) across cultures.

warpster

Ref DRUMZ #: 73

[at least tell me what you thought of the Coles Law (coleslaw) joke. I was saving that one for years...]

The shrink (Shankar) still hasn`t gotten it. Even after you explained Cole`s Law = coleslaw.

Yo shrink; how about some breastbeating here on this board. That is your favorite pastime; it will earn you some brownie points with a few people on the other side of the border. And I don`t mean Canada by that.

Re: Hamidm

``...i am one of the few who knows anything about hinduism since i saw indiana jones and the temple of doom ..... those of us who have not seen this masterpiece are quite ignorant about this great and ancient religion ...``

Hamidm, you have NO idea how much I laugh when I read one of your outrageously funny descriptions. Keep it coming!

rsridhar writes

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Nothing can be further from the truth. Hindu spritual scriptures do not sanction any kind of exploitation. Brahmins, who wielded immense power consequent to their being the sole interpretor of religious texts, have misused that position to their own advantage. By constantly misinterpreting the texts to their advantage, they have made sure they will always be in demand and will never be questioned. If a boy has to wed a girl, one needs a priest to fix the right time and date (called ``muhurtam`` in Tamil). A baby born in a family needs to be named by a priest. You need a priest when one dies in order to cremate him with proper rites and then on the 10th day for his soul to depart to heaven without hinderance. See, how priests have become indispensable!

---

honestly no one is forcing people to consult priests or astrologers; these are somewhat quaint practices that harm no body and can bee considered as part of ``culture``. And provides a means to the priests to eke out a living. The reality is that very few people are still in this ``profession`` given that the money to be made is very limited (there are only so many weddings and deaths and births to go around). You also gloss over the subtle positives in these practices.. having someone well versed in these traditions makes the ceremonies much more colorful and memorable. Life is about memories.

I don`t see how the above has anything to do with caste discrimination or why it is undesirable. No different from calling a magician to the kids birthday party.

no one has authority as being ``sole interpretor of religious texts`` in indian/hindu religions/cultures. If you feel up to the task, have a shot. No one may listen but then thats what a free market is all about. The cream will rise to the top.

The indian subcontinent has been an extraordinarily fertile ground for the evolution of cultures, religions, philosophies, and languages. Sure some of the practices are archaic/discriminatory etc. but part of the evolutionary process is to change with the times.

warpster

sadna #63 Micro-credit loans often come with high interest rates (anywhere from 20 to over 30%) and often require repayment within the year or 18 months. And you are right - peer pressure is a key factor in making sure these loans are repaid. And I too believe that we would not see such high repayment rates if the loans were given to men. Close supervision by the ngo field workers is another factor. I once did a quick and dirty cash flow on one of the more common investments women borrowers make in Bangaldesh - the purchase of a milk cow: Counting the revenue from milk and the money from sale of the calf, I think the returns came out very high they got their money`s worth plus more within 18 months. And these women are determined to build a life for their children: I have been inside their homes, and seen their children sitting in bare dirt floors with nothing but a pile of books - high school books including advanced math and so forth. We have similar programs started in Pakistan, although following a slightly different model (the loans are generally a bit larger in amount, e.g., and given to men as well as women). It is too early to say if they will be as effective as in Bangladesh, and we will know in a few years.

Re: #68

rsridhar,

``Brahmins, who wielded immense power consequent to their being the sole interpretor of religious texts, have misused that position to their own advantage.``

``Brahmins were pious, scholarly people who lived modest lives. Unlike the Aristocracy in 12th century Europe, brahmins have never owned a large army, estates etc.``

Can`t make up your mind, eh ?

regards,