The Forgotten Children of God

RanaRansher: I guess yours could be termed the ``moron`s sense of humor`` (similar to the chap who sticks a pencil up each of his nostrils and goes from person to person seeking to impress them with his wit and humor).

Am reposting my two-cents worth on this issue (chowk missed my original post): The real problem is increasingly with urbanization not the caste system but the condition of the poor. By focusing on caste (or ethnicity generally), one is diagnosing the problem incorrectly - there are rich Dalits in India (e.g. well-known politicians); and I am sure there are poverty stricken brahmins in India (this assumption not based on first hand knowledge). By diagnosing the problem incorrectly, one comes up with the wrong solution (quotas in government jobs) rather than the right ones (self-employment opportunities and micro-credit for the poor).

Reply Prem, Soundmeister, Sadna

Reply Prem # 17

Thank you Prem for the info. Howzit going in your new avatar?

Zafar

Reply Soundmeister # 18

“We need some big EPISODE, some Lagaan-like watershed that will open our eyes to the reality and bring about change.”

Soundmeister, I think that these silver bullet experiences are rare enough for individuals, let along nations. Progress usually comes from the pursuit of small perfections which add up to a better whole.

Zafar

Reply Sadna # 24

Sadna

There are excellent laws against discrimination in India – but there is currently more political incentive for the Government to fail to enforce them (or enforce them sporadically and selectively) than there is for them to be fully implemented.

What kind of pressure could be brought to remedy this situation? The treatment of Gypsies in Eastern Europe seems to be improving slightly if only because those countries want to join the EU, and adequate minority (is this the correct word?) rights is a prerequisite for this. Could something like this work for India? If the pressure was external would it (in the long run) be beneficial (since we are a xenophobic lot at heart)?

Zafar

This was a good report Mr. Alam, I hope Radha finds success in her endeavors. India should surely concentrate on this heinous practice of segregating.

For a nation progressing well, it seems to be ignoring this core problem for a long time now, hope someone, somewhere, can actually make a change regarding this matter.

Regards

Kiran

Caste is prevalent in all South Asian nations. Buddhist Sri Lanka has its Untouchables; Islamic Pakistan has its chamars; yet the only country that gets called upon to apologize over and over again for the caste system is India.

Hindu temples were opened to Harijans at the behest of reformist Brahmins. But the caste system is used to bash only brahmins. Yet people who have a very strong caste prejudice in India are those who are just one level above the Harijans. I have gone to school with all sorts of people and I don`t remember that anybody`s caste mattered to the teacher or to the school system.

The example the author has chosen to name in his article, Radha Bathran, attends University, proving that an institution of higher learning is not closed to someone because of his/her caste.

If one comes from a lower-middle-class background and applies oneself diligently to his studies, there is nothing to stop them from reaching the goals that they want to achieve except their own incompetence. If you are born to a dirt-poor family with not enough food for every mouth, you are going to work from an early age regardless of caste. The son of a village temple priest automatically becomes the next priest and doesn`t have the slightest clue about the world. He knows how to offer prayers to the idol in the temple; nothing more. Look at most of them; they are all skin and bones because they don`t get enough to eat. Similarly, the son of the village barber becomes the barber to the next generation and the dalit carries on in his traditional occupation of being a leather worker or sh!t-carrier. On the other hand, a barber plying his trade in a large town has the opportunity to send his son to school because his earnings are higher. But the son should have the inclination to study diligently and make a different life for himself.

Regarding the rigidity of professions based on caste, this is applicable only to economically backward people. Surgery in the ancient days was practiced by the only people who wielded a knife: barbers. Medicine on the other hand was practiced by both brahmins and shamans of various tribes. Do not brahmin surgeons exist today?

Is engineering a brahminical profession? Building things -- hey, we have the so-called Vishwakarma caste who were traditional builders. How many engineers are brahmins?

How about IT? How do you assign IT to a specific caste?

People are not going to intermarry to please some abstract notion of justice. There is a continuity to culture and they have a tradition to uphold so they will marry primarily within their own castes. You cannot force an American White to marry a Black in the name of social equality. All you can ask is that Blacks and Whites should be able to attend the same school, be able to stay in public accommodations such as hotels without discrimination, be able to get employment based on education, skills and experience and not skin color, etc. Do US laws enforce this? Yes. Do Indian laws enforce non-dicrimination? In cities, mostly yes. In villages, I cannot say. What do you want: a police state that collects statistics and divides the economic pie to the millionth of a penny? How about the Dalit who still didn`t get anything because there are 240 million of them? Would it still be discrimination?

Caste is simply a stick used to bash specific communities. That so-called ``Great Intellectual`` CN Annadurai (Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu in the late 1960s) married his son off within his own caste after spending his entire life bashing brahmins and claiming to eliminate caste barriers. His explanation: he didn`t have any control over his family`s decision to find a daughter-in-law within his own caste! But there were hundreds of people who had taken his advice and married outside their castes. So it was a question of ``do as I say and not as I do``.

Let me relate a tale told to me by my uncle. One January evening in Bombay one of his subordinates at the office (they all lived in the same large apartment complex) came to see him at home. My aunt brought out coffee and sweet rice, sweet rice being the traditional dish on Sankaranthi, that day being January 14. On seeing the sweet rice, the subordinate officer blurted out, ``Swamy, I shouldn`t have come to see you today.`` My uncle said, ``Those were the olden days and we all live in modern times now. So go ahead and eat heartily`` In telling me this story, my uncle said, ``My subordinate was sensitive to the nuances of the situation because he himself is a Valluva, (a caste of priests to the lower classes) and knows that on holy days brahmins are not supposed to meet with people of other castes.`` Imagine that! Here is someone who ranks lower in caste sorry that he didn`t observe caste rules! By the way, my uncle`s name isn`t Swamy. In villages, brahmins are addressed as `Swamy`. That was the word the subordinate used, not the usual `sir`. And you all expect India to wipe out the caste system in the wink of an eye!

Dear Zalan, Salaam,

Just two thoughts that came to my mind after reading your article.

1) I believe we Muslims have problems of our own and we should work to resolve them. I think Siglaph pointed it out very well. We must first bring our house in order before we tell others about their problems. Problems that exist today with Hinduism are THEIR problem not ours and let THEM deal with it.

2) As Muslims we are not supposed to point problems with other religions. Nor we are given permission to call Gods of the other religions with bad names.

Allah has rewarded you with the might of the pen. So use it to create unity among Muslims. Remember that pointing out problems with other people/religion/sects is very easy but solving our own problems is a much more difficult task.

Asfand Siddiqui

Sacramento CA

hassann

``I wish the Dalit lady good luck in her efforts in education of western people.``

Looks as if she already has her hands full in the East!

If you want to know the truth of ANY nation, speak with its poor folks.

Good job on suggesting that caste is

never discussed in India, that all hindus

collude in caste-opression, that Indian

democracy is a sham.

All three statements

are false: caste is heavily discussed

in India (pick up any newspaper), urban

or educated indians overwhelmingly reject

``hateful`` aspects of casteism (yes, I am

aware that in rural UP and Bihar there

are many hateful acts against dalits),

indian democracy while imperfect has provided

tremendous space for dissent. Its affirmative

action programs have empowered

innumerable castes and backward groups (including

many groups of indian muslims, for example).

I understand that to you India having a President

who is from dalit background (he is

just a token!), that

more and more dalit, ST, backward caste people

are in academics (Kanchiah Iliah, Gail Omvedt,...)

and politics (Udit Raj, Mayawati, BSP,...) ---

all of this is meaningless, because remember

Chanakya, these cunning brahmins, etc. etc.

Here is another good topic for you: Sati. This

can also give rise to much compassion for us poor

Indians.

When you are ready to have a true dialog, lets

talk. When we do so, lets start with an

examination of your Saudi masters (

now there is a real upper-caste issue!),

your wannabe-arabs,

your Syeds and Pathans, and your super-low

caste hindus and christians. Then we will

all be on the same page.

Good job on suggesting that caste is

never discussed in India, that all hindus

collude in caste-opression, that Indian

democracy is a sham.

All three statements

are false: caste is heavily discussed

in India (pick up any newspaper), urban

or educated indians overwhelmingly reject

``hateful`` aspects of casteism (yes, I am

aware that in rural UP and Bihar there

are many hateful acts against dalits),

indian democracy while imperfect has provided

tremendous space for dissent and has empowered

innumerable castes and backward groups (including

muslims, for example).

I understand that to you India having a President

who is from dalit background (he is

just a token!), that

more and more dalit, ST, backward caste people

are in academics (Kanhiah Iliah, Gail Omvedt,...)

and politics (Udit Raj, Mayawati, BSP,...).

Those interested in theology: Im hoping that instead of hate induced mud slinging, some of us can initiate a religious discourse on this thread. The single aim being to share information and increase consciousness. Im very much interested in the posts written by harpreet and sadna. Please write more posts like that so us lay people can be better informed on these pressing issues.

One more thing, I hope that hindus (in particular) will write what they feel regardless of the rhetoric they recieve from less enlightened Muslims/secularists.

Some things I hope you guys can address are...

1. Sadna, what you said about the caste system makes a lotta sense (that we fullfil the roles of many castes in our day to day lives). That is a practical answer and I HOPE it was the original intent of the writers of hinduism. Was it?

2. Maybe later someone can explain to me the symbolic significance of the some hindu demi gods. Not the literalist opinions on why so and so has a elephants face, but what symbols was such a description trying to portray.

3. Lastly, we can possibly have some sort of a Hindu-Muslim dialogue. What do members of one faith really thing about the other faith. Again if anyone believes the other party is going to hell or whatever, then they are damn fools. Enlightened opinions requested-ONLY.

Peace.

A critique of Gandhi ji`s role for the Harijans:

`Gandhi and Gandhiism` by DR B R Ambedkar.

Umar Murtaza:

`I do wish that Ghandi Ji was alive for a few more years…I also wish that Jesus (PBUH) would make a come back pretty soon…`

And what do you think that would achieve except numb people with false spirituality and religiousity. Let me make it clear, Jesus is dead and buried. He aint coming back.

-Yasser Hamdani

SigaIph235 #21

``Interesting ,CHOWK,is now being actively spied upon by the Hindian brigade of Sulekha.``

Thanks for informing us all about what is being posted at Sulekha. But, what does it make you?

A spy of mulla brigade of chowk?

Reply # 4 hasan

[Please tell this to any of your Hindu friends. First of all they will never accept it. Even if they accept it, they will be quick to point out that it is changing now.]

Well said. Chowk interactions so far prove your point.

With all due respect to the Dalits (and other historically disadvantaged), I don`t see quotas and reservations helping the society as a whole. Because quotas take opportunities away not only from the oppressing class (or their descendants) but also from the society as a whole. The 50% reserved for Dalits is taken away not just from the Brahmins but alos from Muslim Dalit converts, Christian tribal converts, Sikh Dalit converts etc. etc.

It is sad about the Dalits, but at least the justification is that they r considered low caste by Hindus. Wot is the justification of the treatment of similar `low caste` sweepers in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, when Islam considers all humanity equal?

Allah O Akbar
Death to the Infidel