The Forgotten Children of God

Urstruly #135
``Me say
``Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.Now I am Hindu. Now I am not. Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.`` ``

Are you trying to say you are a vacillating Hindu? I donot understand what you mean by it, nor do I really cate.

I do believe in secular values in public affairs or the closest approximation. Its not contrary to being or thinking or acting as a Hindu as well. I am not promoting secular atheism. You seem to think the two are the same. I remember to have read Pakistani writers lamenting this confusion among Pakistanis in general.

Urstruly, you are the one putting words in others mouths, no matter what I actually say or mean, so why do you need ANYONE around? I certainly donot want to interact with you further on Hinduism.

Re Urstruly (#132):

In response to my post making several strong, although “predictable” points [wink], your comment indicates that you really do not have anything intelligent to say.

I feel strongly about finality of prophethood … since this is the crux of the lame, unfounded argument deployed by jahil mullahs like you to persecute Ahmadi-Muslims. It is comforting to know that Allah’s prophets and their followers have always been persecuted by animals of your kind, who twist God’s words and hurt the innocent and the defenseless. Allah has always helped His people in the face of violent opposition, and He continues to do so. Do not forget what happened to Zia, and King Faisal, and Bhutto. Egyptian Pharoh and his army chasing Moses were drowned, and that was a great sign for the believers. Non-believers see it merely as a coincidence … ah, Moses got lucky! Here you have three kings who persecuted Ahmadi-Muslims … and were killed like animals. If you still do not see the hand of Allah in this, is it my fault?



I have raised the issue of absurdities of mainstream Islamic faith several times in the past. Your continued silence, despite your empty claims that Islam is “Deen-e-Fitrat”, speaks volumes. It shows that you are not able to deal with contradictions in your faith and continue to believe blindly … the makings of a typical low IQ, overzealous, religious fanatic. It is no wonder you deal with these insecurities by persecuting innocent minorities. Nothing new here … this has happened all throughout the history of mankind.

Here … deal with this … my dear pathetic, “unpredictable”, fanatic mullah.

Asad

Sadna:

I dont understand why you are always angry when a subject matter can be discussed calmly and reasonably. Let`s see:

You say:

Urstruly, if you donot read or comprehend what I write, is it my fault? Where is this dogma you are quoting? Why shouldnot anyone protest? To me it is clear that in fact, anyone interested in earning karma brownie points needs to protest but do it honestly and with integrity.

Me say:

Okay fair enough-so may be I didnt understand what you wanted to convey or what exactly did you have in your mind-fair enough-but where is your attempt to explain? And by the way how do you figure out if one`s protest is `honest and with integrity` or not?

You say:

Urstruly, I appeal to you to understand, my reply was not meant for you(since I know the subject matter is a little tough and requires sincerity), but for anyone HONESTLY interested in the subject.

Me say:

Ms. Sadna your post was addressed to me-my name was on it. Isn`t it presumptive and speculative to claim that I am not honestly interested. I wonder what gives.

You say:

I am very outspoken about your dogma of killing kafirs and false Muslims in India and Kashmir and will continue to be. If you choose to call it Islam, thats your choice, as a Hindu I have nothing to do with what you call it.

Me say:

Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.Now I am Hindu. Now I am not. Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.

You say:

Again, where have I promoted secular atheist values? Urstruly I doubt even your God can forgive a liar.

Me say:

Now I am secular. Now I am not.Now I am secular. Now I am not.Now I am secular. Now I am not.Now I am secular. Now I am not.

For Durga Mai`s sake grow up.

Urstruly #133
``[And horror of horror is that the victim is first drugged with the opiate of dogma of Reincarnation. So the victim becomes nothing but a fly who gets trapped in the spider web, where spider has just injected is venome and spun a cocoon around it. Now the fly cant move, cant speak, only see-see the dreams of other world where there will be no pain-no suffering-no suffocation-where she will reincarnate-so her (fly`s) best bet is to remain calm-not to protest-because if she will protest she will be condmned to more misery when reincarnated].``

Urstruly, if you donot read or comprehend what I write, is it my fault? Where is this dogma you are quoting? Why shouldnot anyone protest? To me it is clear that in fact, anyone interested in earning karma brownie points needs to protest but do it honestly and with integrity.

``Sadna! I appeal to your good conscience that please help Radha get rid of the scourge of this dogma``

Urstruly, I appeal to you to understand, my reply was not meant for you(since I know the subject matter is a little tough and requires sincerity), but for anyone HONESTLY interested in the subject.

`` I know you are very outspoken about the dogma in other religions like Islam etc.``

I am very outspoken about your dogma of killing kafirs and false Muslims in India and Kashmir and will continue to be. If you choose to call it Islam, thats your choice, as a Hindu I have nothing to do with what you call it.

``You promote secular atheist values among Muslims and Paksitanis``

Again, where have I promoted secular atheist values? Urstruly I doubt even your God can forgive a liar.

Sadna # 116

The horror of horrors is that your post proves the point I raised about the culprit- dogma. Here is what I wrote:

Quote:

``Based on Lord Krishna`s words the Hindu scholars assert that the casteism is a natural division among the mankind. Ostensibly their argument is compelling but one has to put the things in perspective to see the complete picture. Imagine and equate for a minute the concept of untouchability as a `knife` then Casteism is that hand which drives this knife through your belly. Without hand the knife is useless. In order to render the knife useless you have to cut off that hand, which in the absence of knife might become a fist or a slap.``

Unquote.

After reading your post I would like to modify the above paragraph as follows (note the comment in the paranthesis):

``Based on Lord Krishna`s words the Hindu scholars assert that the casteism is a natural division among the mankind. Ostensibly their argument is compelling but one has to put the things in perspective to see the complete picture. Imagine and equate for a minute the concept of untouchability as a `knife` then Casteism is that hand which drives this knife through your belly. Without hand the knife is useless. [And horror of horror is that the victim is first drugged with the opiate of dogma of Reincarnation. So the victim becomes nothing but a fly who gets trapped in the spider web, where spider has just injected is venome and spun a cocoon around it. Now the fly cant move, cant speak, only see-see the dreams of other world where there will be no pain-no suffering-no suffocation-where she will reincarnate-so her (fly`s) best bet is to remain calm-not to protest-because if she will protest she will be condmned to more misery when reincarnated]. In order to render the knife useless you have to cut off that hand, which in the absence of knife might become a fist or a slap.

Unquote

The only way out for Radha and other millions of unfortunate souls is to discard this dogma which only promises but does not deliver but pain, suffering, humiliation, shame, and helplessness, not at the hand of some cruel diety but by the fellow human beings. Sadna! I appeal to your good conscience that please help Radha get rid of the scourge of this dogma. I know you are very outspoken about the dogma in other religions like Islam etc. You promote secular atheist values among Muslims and Paksitanis. Then why not start the good housekeeping from your home?

Sattar # 127

That comment about finality of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was inserted deliberately to prove a point-the underlying assupmtion was that you have become so predictable.

Reply Sadna # 116

I think that this is the clearest and most articulate explanation of Hindu philosophy (rare on chowk to begin with, compared with explanations of Muslim falsfiyya) that I’ve seen on Chowk. Congratulations, and also thank you for those lovely quotes from the Gita.

anarayan 129,

time and space

We can talk about the brain, we are aware of our thoughts and feeligs, we are aware of our self. It is alleged that conciousnes cannot be the product of the brain, or rather there is no physical analogue to something being aware of itself.

Tine is an intervel between two events and is simply a matter of perception. If you were ever involved in an accident, you would recognise how the time slows down, as though to give you a chance to respond. Time and space are simply a product of perception, there may not be any physical `objective, thing out there.

If life is all so predictable, it should be very boring. Ultimately, from a pure utilitarian view poin, give life some magic. If you believe in it, it will happen.

regards

jay

Re: #125

DRUMZ,

...some thoughts on your thoughts...

``1. Is it not true that human beings have instincts? One gets an inexplicable feeling that something may happen, that ya forgot something or certain vibes when you meet new people. Ive been thinking about that alot. Im trying to go by my first instincts in the hope that if Im receptive to them, my sensitivity to them will increase. Any thoughts?``

The brain is a mechanical instrument. I mean it is governed by cause-effect. People who have tried to prove otherwise have all failed. All its reponses are pre-programmed. Nothing magical. Does anyone feel happy when insulted?

Clearly the human brain is quite, quite, quite complex. Possibly the most complex thing in the universe. Even the best neuroloists, etc are just scratching the surface. Given its enormous information processing capability, there HAVE to be several layers to it. During waking hours, most of the time the brain spends in what is called the `top layer` of consciousness - getting input from the 5 senses and dealing with it immediately. Who knows what its lower layers are doing ???

We are told by the people in the know, that when the `top layer` is quiet, the lower layers can communicate with the outer layer. This is why at odd times we `suddenly` find solutions to vexing problems.

What I`m trying to say is that basically, there`s no magic. So, instinct may be nothing more than a pattern that the lower brain has recognized as unfolding. The brain can find solutions only if it has enough data (whether 1-minute old or 20-year old).



``4. Eternal life. Time is based on how long it takes for the earth to revolve around the sun. So if one of God`s days = 1000 of our days, does that make it a physical being in the universe? I think that hindu demi gods, egyptian gods etc are also real physical beings, more superior to us, but also in Brahma. Thoughts?``

Eternal is time-less. Something that time cannot touch. The hindu astronomical texts describe Brahma (the Creator) as having a life of 302 trillion years - which is great, but still finite. The entire life of Brahma is described as a mere twinking of the eye of Siva (the ultimate God).





``Is one at peace when she realizes that everything is ONE?``

I don`t know anything on this one. Just want to point out a logical fallacy.

We are all in the grip of `duality`. There`s a `me` and therefore (repeat therefore) there`s a not-me, which is `you`. This goes to any level. There`s a `we` and therefore there`s a `them`, etc.

Now think about it, if I suddenly realize that everything is one - there`s still the `me` - the realizer - the man who says ``I see now that everything is one``. And as long as there is the `me` - there will always be the `you` and therefore duality. Hope you see the conundrum.

Logically, the only way to see one-ness is to lose `I-ness`. But then who will say ``I understand one-ness and therefore I am at peace`` ???

regards,

DRUMZ # 125

Oh Drumz, you do raise most interesting and fundamentally important issues. I will love to share my views, though I must hasten to add I am no mufukka scholar on these things :). Besides, I have never studied religion. Like you, I learnt almost all of it from my mother, who can barely read.

Talking of my mother, here is something that you might find interesting. She likes to worship Durga, who in Hindu mythology personifies strength and power. I noticed my father liked to worship Shiva, so I asked her once - ma, why don`t you do what papa does (I was too scared of my father to put a similar question to him)?. Ma said something that gave me a fundamental insight into the nature of God, and the relationship between the God concept and man.

She said, ``beta, it doesn`t matter how we worship God. God is big enough to understand and accept the devotion of all. I worship Durga because I derive a sense of strength from her, which I need. Also, I am woman, and can identify with the traits and qualities of Durga.``

That was true. My ma led a hard life. She needed strength. So she chose the manifestation of God that fitted her own nature and circumstances, comforting her, inspiring her, empowering her to tackle the challenges that came her way.

The God, that she herself created, came true for her.

Back to the questions you raised. I have got too many ideas - all in a jumble though. I will sit down soon and write you a brief reply.

Re Urstruly Sahib (#115):

I read your letter to Radha with amusement over your hypocrisy and double standards. You make a passionate plea against the caste system in the name of human suffering. It reminded me of the Blasphemy Laws debate which you began with a similar plea, but where later, as your defense crumbled, you resorted to dishonest, changing arguments and admitted to using manipulative tactics, all in the name of wining the argument.

Let’s hope that this time your so-called sense of compassion lasts longer then your position in the discussion.

On another board you made false, hateful comments against Ahmadi-Muslims, like a “jahil” mullah who incites sectarian hatred. Later you tried to justify making such statements, then denied making hateful comments, and later blamed Ahmadis for violence against them. When probed further, after 5-or-so posts you reluctantly admitted that violence against Ahmadis is “unfortunate”.



While this pathetic, reluctant admission was not what I was looking for, it unraveled your facade of compassion, and showed that in essence, it is you who is “unfortunate” … a regrettable existence, amounting to a sorry reminder of how low humans can sink.

Turning towards your current, absurd post …

You criticize arguments that defend caste system on basis that “it preserves the order in the society”. At the same time you defend “Anti-Ahmadiyya” laws in Pakistan as a way “to maintain order in the society. And to protect the lives and properties of both Ahmadis and Muslims from each other”. What’s the difference? There isn’t any! Both ideologies are designed by corrupt, abusive clergies … the type your kind belongs to.

[“Anti-Ahmadiyya” laws have declared Ahmadis as non-Muslims, despite protests from Ahmadis that they indeed follow Islam. These laws have also made it unlawful for Ahmadi-Muslims to publicly practice their faith, i.e. to say “bismillah” or “asalam-o-alaikom”, call their place of worship a “mosque”, give “azaan”, recite “kalima” etc., since by performing these acts, Ahmadi-Muslims will be “posing” as Muslims.]

You go to great lengths to show that there is no “dogma” in a Muslim society, while ignoring rampant sectarian violence carried out in the name of Islam. Some examples are the WTC disaster, shia-sunni violence, anti-Ahmadiyya violence, edicts of “kuffr” issued by “Muslim scholars” against other sects causing much violence and bloodshed, and more. You claim that a Syed and a Sheikh can pray together in a mosque. You conveniently ignore the fact that Ahmadis have been banned from mosques, shias in Pakistan have been murdered during prayers in mosques while numerous sunnis have also suffered the same fate at the hands of shias, Christians in Pakistan live under the fear of persecution, reports of guns and ammunition stored in the back rooms in mosques, and much more … all in the name of Islam.

You attempt to draw a parallel between Oneness of God and finality of Prophet Mohammad’s prophethood, as absolutes. You attempt to justify latter merely as “a Muslim will never accept anything that contradicts” this notion. This is really not a sound argument, but rather a fool’s conjecture. A Hindu may as well argue that “he will never accept anything that contradicts caste system”. Big deal.

What a Muslim will accept as valid, and even a part of his core belief, gets more absurd and dramatic. There are stories about a prophet parting the sea by waving a stick; prophets raising the dead from their graves; a prophet and his wife residing in Paradise, eating the forbidden fruit and getting thrown out of Paradise (now this sounds like a tale of Hindu gods and goddesses); a prophet riding a flying carpet; a prophet who talked to animals and birds and controlled genies; and much more.

Tell all this to Radha and remind her that Muslims will never accept anything that contradicts their beliefs. Also tell her how this prophet, who was magically lifted to the sky two-thousand years ago, will descend from the clouds on the shoulders of two angels, kill the one-eyed monster who rides a giant, fire-breathing donkey … how this prophet will kill the Jews, convert the world to Islam over the balde of the sword, and lead Islam to its final victory. Any Hindu should have no difficulty leaving behind the world of Hindu fairy tales in favor of such “logical and easy-to-understand” Islamic ideology from mullah Urstruly … right?



Mullahs like yourself forcibly dictate Islam to others, while accusing Brahmins of manipulating their religious authority. You guys are actually two of a kind. Given some more time, your version of Islam will rot and degenerate into a worse doctrine…a compete nightmare … something that will make today’s Hindu Brahmins looks like civil rights leaders, and fairy-tales look like in-depth study in nuclear physics. You mullahs are half-way there … another 1400 years and it’ll be all over.

Sahib, you mullahs have way too many skeletons in your own closets to be accusing others of immorality. First, get your own act together. Live and let live, before you go around telling others how to live their lives. Worst of the demons are within you, and not “out there”.

Asad

ram-rahim # 122

His claims notwithstanding, the author knows nothing about India, and has no interest in doing his journalistic pretenses any justice by trying to learn what he doesn`t know.

I wouldn`t put outright fabrication past such ``journalists.``. At least one interactor on this board has already gone that route.

I do not begrudge the hyperbolic language of some dalit leaders. They have a noble cause - empowering their people who have been oppressed for centuries. They are angry. They are bitter. And their anger and bitterness is justified. Their demands are very real.

As a people we face that challenge. we understannd where we have gone wrong. And we openly, courageously confront our ugliness.

That is a great start - a start that people who are frozen in time, or are walking backwards, will never understand. They will never understand that there is no sizeable intellectual class in India running around making lame excuses, justifying past and present criminality. No blind sticking to old and sh1itty dogma because that is allegedly God`s word. No burying our noses into books written thousands of years ago to justify current discrimination against fellow humans. No effort to endlessly ``re-interpret`` stupidity instead of just doing what any reasonable person should do - jettisoning that crap.

We know what we should do with our dogma. We should NOT teaching it to kids. We should NOT read it everyday. We should NOT write patently foolish tomes defending and propagating it. Above all, we should NOT make it a matter of state policy.

When a dalit tells me that he or she can not walk in India, wearing shoes (even though a dalit is sitting in the Rastrapati Bhavan as the President of India, even though my father`s boss was a dalit IAS officer whom I personally served many a delicious lunch, and even though some of these dalit leaders, educated justifiably at state expense, go globetrotting) I can listen to him or her. I understand the pain and the anguish that might lead some people to make such claims.

But when others, in their ignorance and in their deliberate stupidity, make such claims, they need to get their arses kicked.

Prem, harpreet, sadna and others...

Some sh1t:

1. Is it not true that human beings have instincts? One gets an inexplicable feeling that something may happen, that ya forgot something or certain vibes when you meet new people. Ive been thinking about that alot. Im trying to go by my first instincts in the hope that if Im receptive to them, my sensitivity to them will increase. Any thoughts?

2. Dejavu: What the hell is it??? A lot of philosophers flirted with the idea of what real is. Descartes and them never really gave a formula which would logically separate DREAMS from ``reality``. I think the answer is simple, we know its false because it transcends `awaken` reality. U do things in dreams that u cant do in reality. This descrepency in the space time fabric tells us that dreams are ``less`` real. Well, can the same descrepency found in dejavu, HINT to us that our reality itself is not REAL? (maya)

3. If u disagree with 2, whats the purpose of dreams?

4. Eternal life. Time is based on how long it takes for the earth to revolve around the sun. So if one of God`s days = 1000 of our days, does that make it a physical being in the universe? I think that hindu demi gods, egyptian gods etc are also real physical beings, more superior to us, but also in Brahma. Thoughts?

Peace.

BTW: What is peace? If peace is eternal, will it still be peace? Is it simply tranquility? In the yin yang symbol, would peace only be the white side? IMO its the whole. Peace is balance between black and white, for u cant have peace without war, hate etc. balance between black and white = 50/50 or 100% or simply ONE. Is one at peace when she realizes that everything is ONE?

#113 annie

Hope you didn`t tell your dad to bugger off..

That aside, why the halal/haram infatuation. Give into temptation for a change. Go ahead, drink that gripewater!

#113 annie

Hope you didn`t tell your dad to bugger off..

That aside, why the halal/haram infatuation. Give into temptation for a change. Go ahead, drink that gripewater!

Before one takes one person`s tale as truth, one should do some fact-finding especially if you claim to be a journalist.

I was raised as a Muslim in small village in Maharashtra. 40 years ago, dalits were not allowed in temples as well as Masjits. Now this does not happen. This lady Radha Bathran probably went to college on government stipend because she was a dalit (hope she was able to get in without part of 40% dalit quota.).

My dalit friends are excutive engineers because they are dalits even though they are not any smarter (or dumber) than non-dalits and Muslims.

When I was growing up I wished to be dalit so I would have entered IIT instead of U. Bombay because my test score was not good enough for IIT.