The Forgotten Children of God

re: detroit mullah

``which has plagued humanity like no other disease.``

you mean mad mullah disease, which has resulted in terrorism all over the world

Drumz,

Here`s another version from my old archives :)

Sh1t Happens

Creationist: This sh1t is 6000 years old. How could such neat sh1t come about by random chance?

Existentialism: Sh1t doesn`t happen; sh1t is.

Hedonism: There is nothing like a good sh1t happening.

7th Day Adventist: Sh1t doesn`t happen on Saturdays.

Zoroastrianism: Sh1t happens half the time.

Moonies: Only happy sh1t really happens.

Christian Science: When sh1t doesn`t happen, don`t call a doctor--pray.

Mormon: This sh1t is going to happen again.

Jehovah`s Witnesses: No sh1t happens until Armaggedon.

Secular Humanism: Sh1t evolves.

Taoism: If you can sh1t, it isn`t sh1t.

Buddhism: Sh1t will happen again to you next time.

Charismatic Catholicism: Sh1t is happening because you deserve it, but we love you anyway.

Creationalism: After six days of sh1t, He rested.

New Age: This isn`t sh1t if I really believe it`s chocolate. I create my own sh1t.

Hinduism: This sh1t is not a religion, it is the way of life.

Mormon: Hey, there`s more sh1t over here!

Baptist: You are sh1tting all wrong, and you`ll be punished for it.

Unitarianism: Go ahead, sh1t anywhere you want

Iraqi Baathist: Oh sh1t!

Televangelism: Your tax-deductible donation could make this sh1t stop happening

Islam: Only Arabic sh1t is sh1t.

Agnosticism: It looks and smells like sh1t, but I haven`t tasted it, so I`m not sure whether its sh1t or not.

Atheism: It looks and smells like sh1t, so I`m damned if I`m going to taste it.

Voodoo: Sh1t doesn`t just happen -- somebody dumped it on you.

Yuppism: It`s my sh1t! All mine! Isn`t it beautiful?

Heisenbergism: Sh1t happened, we just don`t know where.

Nixonism: Sh1t didn`t happen, and if it did I din`t know anything about it.

McCarthyism: Are you now, or have you ever been, sh1t?

Communism: It`s everybody`s sh1t.

Capitalism: Sh1t happens, and it`ll cost you!

McLeanism: This sh1t has happened to me before.

Green Peace: Save this sh1t.

Optimism: Sh1t happens only once.

Pessimism: Sh1t happens forever.

Military: Sh1t happens. By the numbers.

Environmentalism: Recycle this sh1t.

Fatalism: Not this sh1t AGAIN.

Paranoia: Sh1t happens cuz it`s a plot.

Realist: I think I need to take a sh1t.

Daoism: If you think it`s sh1t, you missed the point

Episcopalianism: Same sh1t, less stink

Utilitarianism: Sh1t if it creates the most pleasure

Ref DRUMZ #: 114

[Zafar: Anything and everything u need to know about theology is neatly printed on this shirt I saw at a local mall.

Daoism: ``Sh1t happens``

Etc.]

In the interest of ensuring that all religions are portrayed accurately, here is a comprehensive list.

Daoism: Sh1t happens.

Confucianism: Confucius say, ``Sh1t happens``.

Hinduism: This sh1t has happened before.

Hare Krishna: Sh1t happens Rama Rama ding ding.

Buddhism: If sh1t happens, is it really sh1t?

Zen: What is the sound of sh1t happening?

Islam: If sh1t happens, take a hostage.

7th Day Adventist: Sh1t happens on Saturdays.

Catholicism: If sh1t happens, I deserve it.

Protestantism: Sh1t doesn`t happen to us.

Jehovah`s Witness: Knock, knock, ``Sh1t happens``.

Unitarian: What is this sh1t?

Mormon: Sh1t happens again & again & again.

Rastafarianism: Let us smoke this sh1t.

Atheism: No sh1t.

Judaism: Why does sh1t always happen to us?

A REMEBERED CHILD OF GOD, from asian times of today

AMERICAN TALIBAN’S JIHAD CLAIM STUNS KASHMIR

By Yusuf Jameel



Srinagar, Dec. 10

The security agencies in Kashmir are astounded at the claim by captured American Taliban John Walker Lindh that before moving over to Afghanistan he had been part of the jihadis fighting in the Kashmir Valley.

“We were not aware that there was any American involvement,” said a senior officer who has interrogated a number of foreign militants arrested here over the past few years. He and several other security officials here believe that the information that Walker has already given or is likely to give about the jihadi network will prove very useful for India, which is confronted with the “most complex military situation” in Jammu and Kashmir.

Walker is currently being held in the custody of the US military in southern Afghanistan, and in view of the claims he has made, Indian officials hope to be invited to interrogate Walker directly or at least be given full access to the information that he has provides.

The jihadi elements here, described by Walker as the Taliban’s Pakistani allies, are silent on his confession. They have never denied, though, that their cadres are drawn from various nationalities “from China to Lebanon and beyond,” who they say come to Kashmir “to fight infidels alongside their local Muslim brethren, the victim of unperceived persecution.”

A deputy of the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, one of the main foreign-oriented Islamic outfits active in Jammu and Kashmir for many years now, said: “I don’t remember if he or any other American was with us on the front but what I do know is that there are many Western mujahideen there who have exerted themselves physically and mentally or spend their earnings in the way of Allah in Kashmir and elsewhere.”

But most of the so-called Western jihadis active in Kashmir are actually Asian expatriates from Britain and various European countries and are Muslims by birth. Others are helping what they believe is a “holy war” underway in the Himalayan state: they are either new entrants to Islam or those already in the faith but have been impressed by the hardline Islamic movements.

In Walker’s case, it was his heart that drew him to the Taliban. He was a student in Pakistan studying Islam but came into contact with “many people connected with the Taliban,” the Lashkar official said.

According to a senior paramilitary officer on counter-insurgency assignment here, 50- to 60 per cent of militants operating in Jammu and Kashmir today are foreign nationals. “Most of them,” said BSF inspector-general G.S. Gill, “are Pakistanis and (a small percentage of) Afghans.” The projected official statistics also talk about the presence of Sudanese, Ethiopians, Lebanese, Tajik and Turkish militants in Kashmir, “but that is marginal even if it does not go unnoticed,” said another security official.

After all, one of the deadly fidayeen or suicide attacks at the Army’s 15 Corps headquarters here on December 25 last year was carried out by a British national from Birmingham, Muhammad Bilal alias Abdullah Bhai, Mr Gill points out.

Bilal’s heart too had drawn him to Pakistan in 1994 to join the Harkat-ul-Ansar. But later he shifted to the Jaish-e-Muhammad, the outfit launched by Maulana Masood Azhar soon after his return to Pakistan from Kandahar, where he with two more jailed militants was released in order to secure the return of the passengers of hijacked Indian Airlines Flight IC-814.

Nadeem Khateeb, a Kashmiri who received training in aeronautics in Georgia, US, was recruited by one of the many jihadi groups having networks within and outside the South Asian region. His parents were ignorant about Nadeem’s jihadi activities till they were informed about his death in a firefight with the Indian security forces deep in the Pir Panjal mountain ridge last year.

Correction # 115

Gorbachev means ``a little man``, ``a dwarf`` and not a cook. I regret the error.

Urstruly #115
`` There is/was no religious dogma that justified the segregation in either the case of US and South Africa-it was economics-pure and simple. Therefore it was easy to eradicate segregation when economics compulsion along with a moral compulsion made it possible. ``

Justification has been sought and found for slavery and the perceived inferiority of the black people, as well as hell-bentedness of pagans in Christian scriptures. Its to the great credit of `Christian` society that they have looked beyond these justifications.


``But as compared to the casteism in above three cases the Casteism in Hindu society is divinely mandated. The Hindu Shastras (religious texts) have a different explanation to offer as per the Holy scriptures ` Brahma Janayate Iti Brahamana` i.e. a Brahmin is a person who has mastered the essence of Brahma (Universe). In the Bhagavad Geeta, Sri Krishna says that the caste divisions have been created by Him (Krishna) (Bhagavad Gita 4-13).``


http://www.bhagavad-gita.org
The verse actually goes:
4:13 The four division of human order were created by me according to difference in quality, activities and aptitude, although the creator of this, know me as the nondoer being immutable.

There is no mention of classification by birth.

Its best to read the Gita before quoting it. The unity of ALL life is the very basic premise of the concept of ultimate all-pervading consciousness and the paths to its realisation which are expounded in the Gita.

6:29,30
One perfectly realized and perfected in the science of uniting the individual consciousness with the Utlimate Consciousness, identifying with this consciousness everywhere and in everything, perceives this realized self situated in all living entities and all living entities in the realized self.

For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never forgotten by them and they are never forgotten by Me.


6:32
One who perceives in comparison with the self, all living entities equally, in happiness and distress, such a one perfected in the science of uniting the individual consciousness with the Ultimate Consiciousness is considered the highest.


5:18
Only those who see with equal vision the Ultimate Truth in a brahmana endowed with Vedic knowledge and humility, in a cow, in an elephant, in a dog and in the `dog-eaters`(outcaste) are learned in genuine wisdom.

Its best to read the rest yourself.

Also, anyone really interested should know that the Bhagavad Gita is a hugely respected treatise on Vedantic philosophy but even the Gita cannot be called dogma in theological parlance, its a `smriti` or remembered/temporal wisdom, not an `shruti` or `heard wisdom`, like the Vedas which are considered eternal. Moroever, as far back as 9-10th century Sankaracharya said even of the shrutis, `if a shruti says fire is cold you can reject the shruti`. The point is the dogma is that there need be no dogma.

The parts of Hindu philosophy which have lent themselves to be distorted (in my layman view) and made the basis for repressive social tradition is the concept of samskaras. This was possible because scriptures in Sanskrit were traditionally not easily accessible to common folk except through interpretors. Hopefully that is changing.

Samskaras are your proclivites due to accumulated practices of the past. Its like potential or unrealised karma (or your potential bank deposit of good and bad) which can also to determine the circumstances in which you are born.

Here it can be argued that one is born in adverse circumstances and adverse surroundings due of the accumulated sins of ones previous life. But, its clear that samskaras and karma can by defination be overcome, and its slso clear that adverse circumstances are created by mens actions not only for themselves but for each other as well and finally all these are part of the impermanent by defination.

So the conclusion that samskaras and their consequences karma cannot be overcome, that that this corresponds to justified oppression in the name of varna, caste or jaati is the gross distortion, because finally, the whole point of the concept of moksha is that everyone can overcome their circumstances and nature, and that its solely between the Ultimate and the individual.

I think this is the reason why there has always been mobility and interactions between castes, that even learned Hindu scholars cannot be dogmatic about preservation of heirarachy and Hindu reformers have mostly been highly religious people who found the basis for their reforming zeal in their religion.

``How do you legislate to prevent the social isolation that is mandated by dogma?``

Urstruly, anything is possible. Its possible to legislate to MANDATE isolation while claiming it is based on dogma. A neighbouring country has legislated against Ahmedis for saying ``Salaam Walaikum`` or calling their mosque a mosque or themselves Muslims.

AN OPEN LETTER TO RADHA BATHRAN

Dear Alam!

Thanks for writing this article and bringing an issue to fore, which has plagued humanity like no other disease. This open letter is, however, addressed to Radha Bathran. I will really appreciate if you could convey this message to her.

Dear Radha!

I usually do not interact on the boards where Casteism is the exclusive subject of discussion. The issue for me is too important, so important that I think that any unqualified comment by myself will change the course of Hindu introspection towards defensiveness. It is still not my attention to put Hindus and Hinduism in a defensive position-as you will see-yet now a time has come that I have started feeling guilty by keeping quiet on this subject which concerns a large segment of humanity

So far what I have read on the issue of Casteism, on Chwok and elsewhere, is either written by high class Hindus or the so-called ``secular`` Hindus who usually justify the politics of BJP and their barometer on this issue rises and falls as the relationship of BJP changes with its ideological allies like RSS, VHP, Shive Sena etc. It is never discussed objectively. I have seen several Hindu interlocutors who justify the Casteism with the arguments such as ``it preserves the order in the society``, ``other societies in the world also practice casteism`` etc. They also point out the family names in Pakistani Muslims, as Rajput, Jat, Gujjar,etc. as being the existence of castes, and also some segregationist practices with in Sikhs and Christians as well-in order to justify their own casteism. Those who are the secular/atheist types usually suggest that it will die down because of a combination of factors such as education, (religious) reform, and constitutional ban etc. They usually cite the example of United States where segregation and racism were first banned and then through continued education through media and educational system it apparently has diminished to a level where it is considered a social evil at all levels. It is also touted that the 22% quota in the Indian education and government sector will bring about the positive change in the thinking of the people. These are all positive measures and must be appreciated regardless.

Apparently all of the above may be true but as I delved deeper into the subject, and it became clearer to me, the revelations started giving me the knotting gripes. I have a bad habit or you can say a hobby to explore deeply the myths, the paradoxes, and the logical fallacies. As I started analyzing the issue of casteism in Hindu society it became evident to me, that despite well meaning efforts by Government and other humanist Hindus the whole process of ``reform`` and ``uplifting`` is actually working towards defeating itself. All efforts are directed in a circular loop, which is a vicious loop, where there is no way out. Absolutely no way out. Let me explain:

The first myth here is that the Casteism as dictated by the profession is being practiced all around the world. To certain degree it is true. The English sir names like ``Baker``, Butcher``, ``Miller``, ``Carpenter``, ``Cook``, Oar, etc. explain a lot. In Russia and Eastern Europe almost all last names are profession based, e.g. Podkapayeva (Reigning Olympic, swimming Champion) means `a grave digger`, Breznov is a `coal miner`, and Gorbachev is a `Cook` etc. I will explain why it is a myth below.

The second myth is that `since Racism and Segregation was defeated in South Africa and United States etc. by positive social struggle at all levels with affirmative action and constitutional changes etc., the same paradigm will apply to Indian Casteism as well.

The third myth is that Casteism is even practiced in Muslim society, which forbids segregation of any sort with a divine mandate- so casteism is either not as bad as it is thought out to be or it can be eradicated by a constant effort.

The four myth is that Casteism is a social custom in India, which was originated centuries ago, based on the professions of the individuals. It served the purpose of establishing order in the society well but since all customs change with the change of time, it will die down as well over the course of time-as all customs change.

For some these four myths may not be myths but facts, yet I insist on calling them myths because all these contentions are based on a logically fallacious premise. And therefore, all the efforts that will be made, based on these premises are bound to fail. Let me explain:

The common denominator underlying all the above four myths is the absence of the factor of ``dogma``. This factor is deliberately downplayed, ignored, and overlooked. And that is the reason the four myths discussed above are based on the fallacious premise.

There is/was no religious dogma that justified the segregation in either the case of US and South Africa-it was economics-pure and simple. Therefore it was easy to eradicate segregation when economics compulsion along with a moral compulsion made it possible.

Casteism in Western society? The only segregation if there is, is on the basis of ones financial status, not because of the accident of birth.

Casteism in Muslim society? Your best bet is to see the Muslims of India and not that of Pakistan first. What you will see is that a Syed (descendent of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and a Shiekh Sahib (a new convert) stand shoulder to shoulder in a mosque. It is not something that you need to learn in the books but you can see with your own eyes-you wont find untouchability among Muslims. It is unfortunate that the Hindu scholars misrepresent the case of Muslims dishonestly and contemptuously e.g. take the case of Sudhir Biroodkar, who usually quotes a quote by Benazir who once said that ``I have the blood of Wadera in my veins``. Mr. Biroodkar describes the word Wadera as a Rajput clan. This is non-sense. The word Wadera with all its derivative means ``the leader of the clan``, a ``mukhia`` of any clan. There are no, absolutely no, caste connotations. Similarly, the existence of Hindu family names like Jat, Gujjar etc. has no caste connotations. There is no untouchability. There is however rapidly disappearing endogamy between these jaaties, but reason for that was no dogma but it was preservation of land and wealth in a feudal society. There never are/were religious undertones and in general now jaati based endogamy is frowned upon. People do try to avoid those who are in the profession of sweeping and hauling garbage out of the city because of not what they are but because of the hygienic reasons. The same garbage haulers drink water from where everybody else drinks, they go to same schools, same theatres, same restaurants, and shop from where everyone else shops. Muslims do not mind sharing their utensils with anyone-if they ever do, it is hygiene and not because of the accident of birth. No dogma here.

But as compared to the casteism in above three cases the Casteism in Hindu society is divinely mandated. The Hindu Shastras (religious texts) have a different explanation to offer as per the Holy scriptures ` Brahma Janayate Iti Brahamana` i.e. a Brahmin is a person who has mastered the essence of Brahma (Universe). In the Bhagavad Geeta, Sri Krishna says that the caste divisions have been created by Him (Krishna) (Bhagavad Gita 4-13).

Based on Lord Krishna`s words the Hindu scholars assert that the casteism is a natural division among the mankind. Ostensibly their argument is compelling but one has to put the things in perspective to see the complete picture. Imagine and equate for a minute the concept of untouchability as a `knife` then Casteism is that hand which drives this knife through your belly. Without hand the knife is useless. In order to render the knife useless you have to cut off that hand, which in the absence of knife might become a fist or a slap.

Now this is the reason why Casteism in India can never end-because it is mandated by the dogma. Dogma never changes and never evolves. You believe therefore you are. Take for example, Muslims, it doesn’t matter how much we debate, how many empirical, ``actual``, or logical proofs are presented, there can never be two gods. He (Allah) will always be the only one. Similarly, no matter how much we debate, a Muslim will never accept anything that contradicts the notion of the finality of the Prophet Mohammad. Muslims believe these ``dogma`` therefore they are Muslims. If they don’t then they are not, but something else.

This brings home very serious question. How do you legislate to prevent someone to not letting a Dalit or a Shudra into his house. How do you legislate to prevent someone from telling a four year old shudra child to get lost from their doorstep. How do you legislate to prevent the social isolation that is mandated by dogma? Suppose all Dalits get educated and get jobs using 22% quota, what is the guarantee that they will not be looked down upon. What guarantees that the hateful condescending eyes of an upper class individual will not kill the spirit and sense of equality in your child, which is inherent in every child by birth. None. Because it is not the social status, which dictates your inferiority and untouchability, it is the dogma that does. And you let all that happen because you accept that dogma.

The situation indeed is desperate and desperate situations need desperate measures. This leaves you with two choices.

1. The first choice is that you take up on an armed resistance. Although I consider it the most honorable way against any kind of human oppression but in this case it is a futile exercise. Because you will be working towards a self-defeat. You will be actually working to ``reform`` the dogma, which brought that misery upon you in the first place. The dogma never changes. Why preserve a system, which has given you nothing but pain.

2. The second option is that you get out of this vicious circle of oppression for good. What if I tell you a dogma that gives a divine mandate of justice, equality, and universal brotherhood regardless of one`s color, creed, religion, ethnicity or every thing else that divides human beings. What world has come to realize now after wars, misery, suffering, hate, prejudice, isolation, segregation, untouchability, and division was actually mandated by God 1500 years ago. 1500 years ago we were given that charter of human rights, which now is mandated by United Nations and every government in the world formulate their charter of human rights based on these principles. Look what our Prophet (peace be upon him) told us about the equality of man.

``O people Allah says ``0 people We created you from one male and one female and made you into tribes and nations, so as to be known to one another. Verily in the sight of Allah, the most honoured amongst you is the one who is most God fearing. There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab and for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for the white over the black nor for the black over the white except in God`s consciousness.``

See there is no caste no superiority and no inferiority. And here is what he told us about one`s accident of birth:

``O people, Listen and obey, though a mangled Abyssinian slave is appointed your Amir, provided he executes (the Ordinance of) the Book of Allah among you.``

And here is what he said about those who earn their living by working hard and honestly

``A hardworking man is a friend of God``.

Now who am I to hate you for the work you do. Who would dare hating the friend of God. And our Holy Prophet is unique among all the reformers of all the times who earned his living everyday of his life.

My dear sister Radha! As a human being you are my sister-but to tell others it is not me but you who must come forward. As you will delve deeper into the message that I have conveyed to you from my Master, my King, my Holy Prophet, you will see that this message has not only changed the destiny of Man but it has shaped the destiny of Civilizations. Here is the complete text of the charter of human rights, which will prevail and remain a guiding light to the humanity for the rest of the eternity.

http://www.pakistanlawyer.com/smlaw/lastsermon.htm

And remember no gods are created equal but all men are. Listen to God who tells you that.

Zafar: Anything and everything u need to know about theology is neatly printed on this shirt I saw at a local mall.

Daoism: ``Sh1t happens``

Confucianism: ``What is sh1t?``

Judaism: ``How much was the sh1t?``

Hinduism: ``Sh1t happened a long time ago``

Buddhism: ``If sh1t happens, did it make a noise?``

Christianity: ``It is Gods will that sh1t happens.``

Some other stuff that i cant remember...

soya dearest,

bugger off

(vaisae my father also asked me the same)

friend:

yep biases definetly there..whoever wrote this was tilted towards allah and budha while the others were having their legs pulled every few minutes (maybe thats why i thought to post it here :)) point being whoever wrote it..i didnt

zafarsaab:

im not either but this is a terribly funny book..and very sad also..`a tender, troubled god` who because he is lonely decides to make the earth :) his every thought and mood serve to populate the planet..as the centuries pass he feels more and more out of place in the world he has created and by the end of the books he`s packing his bags

# 109 # 110

With your husband`s permission, anNy, allow me to congratulate you. If you posted something that borders on the blasphemy for some Muslims and offends some Hindus, all at the same time, you must be doing something right.

Reply anNy # 103

``..have u by any chance red `the story of God (as told by himself)` by franco ferrucci?``

no, but shall see if I can find it...vaisai I am not to good at theology...

#91

anNy dearest,

I can`t figure you out. On the one hand you are seriously into this halal/haram stuff. On the other hand, your writing here borders on what might be blasphemy to other believing muslims. What gives?

anNy #91

I don`t know you aim behind this writeup, but it does show some biases

e.g.

``Lord Krishna: The time has come for the wise one to speak. (Smiles mischievously)``

And when you write

``Lord Krishna: But of course. ...

Allah: But what is there to be good if one is coming back again irrespective of the kind of life one leads? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Krishna: (puzzled) Let me get back to you.``

Why Krishna is puzzled in your write-up? He has already explained in Geeta that ultimate aim is salvation, ``moksha`` from this cycle.

SRIdhar ,#68

Your guru Talageri ,Rajaram,Jha,Kak ,Wallia all vested arya brahminfox guarding the chicken of AIT shown to be unscrupulous cospirator of Brahmin Society a mafia present in America besides in India believing like the zionist & nazis both rascist

The Onslaught.

by Jap on

EJVS 7-2 (part 3)

. Have Words, Will Travel!Talageri`s lack of linguistic knowledge gives him a permit to

accept whatever pleases his fancy when it comes to etymologies, using these

Nirukta- or Kratylos-like fantasies as grounds for his fanciful

``historical`` deductions. These deductions are legion, especially in the

later parts of the book, where unchecked etymological speculation abounds

and stands proxy for legitimate historical information. A few examples

should suffice.

On p. 119, the kIkaTa chieftain pramaganda (see Witzel 1999, 1999a)

is identified with the country of magadha in S. Bihar. However, the hymn

in question, RV 3.53.14, clearly speaks of kurukSetra and surroundings,

some 750 miles to the west. It refers to the performance of the azvamedha

(3.53.11) after sudAs` victory in the Ten Kings` Battle (7.18; cf. Witzel

1995), to which this late vizvAmitra hymn of family reminiscences seems to

look back.

But magadha is not related in any way to pra-maganda, at least not

in Sanskrit, as T. tries to insinuate; for Austro-Asiatic possibilities,

however, see Witzel (1999a). To equate magadha and -maganda in Sanskrit is

folk etymology, as virtually no part of both words can be explained as

Indo-Aryan (there is no root mag and no suffix an-da or a-dha, etc., see

Witzel 1999). Yet T. draws wide-ranging historical conclusions from his

folk etymologizing -- in the best style and tradition, incidentally, of

his ``scholars`` of the 19th century!

On p. 113, T. connects the tribal name gandhArI 1.126.6 (correctly:

gandhAri, and 1.126.7!) with that of the semidivine beings, the gandharva,

and just stops short of producing an etymology. On p. 133, T. produces the

folk etymology kazyapa

SRIdhar ,#68

Your guru Talageri ,Rajaram,Jha,Kak ,Wallia all vested arya brahminfox guarding the chicken of AIT shown to be unscrupulous cospirator of Brahmin Society a mafia present in America besides in India believing like the zionist & nazis both rascist

: ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES

: (EJVS)

: Vol. 7 (2001), issue 2 (March 31):

: (©) ISSN 1084-7561: CONTENTS

:

: EDITOR`S NOTE: REVIEW ARTICLE (Saavadhaanapattra no. 2)::

: Michael Witzel: WESTWARD HO !

: The Incredible Wanderlust of the Rgvedic Tribes Exposed by S. Talageri

:

: A Review of: Shrikant G. Talageri, The Rigveda. A historical analysis.:

: :

:

EDITOR`S NOTE

: In certain Internet circles, S. Talageri`s The Rigveda. A

: historical analysis, is being lauded as ``rational,`` ``logical,`` ``solid,`` ``groundbreaking,`` and so on. Any new study of the Rgveda is welcome, since the impression is common that little historical information can be found in the oldest Indian text. I already emphasized this in articles published in 1989 and 1995, and the situation is still basically the same: No detailed

: study of the Rgvedic data has been published for a long time. Therefore, one might expect Talageri`s 500-page book to be of great relevance for Vedic studies and for Indian history in general. Unfortunately, however, the attached review suggests that Talageri`s ``historical analysis`` is far less significant than what is being claimed for it over the Internet. Let readers see for themselves!: Perhaps one should not have been surprised by this conclusion.

: Talageri`s most vocal supporters include the same people who ecstatically welcomed Rajaram and Jha`s ``definitive decipherment`` of the Indus script and supposed discovery of a Harappan ``horse seal`` -- at least until those claims were demolished in two articles that Steve Farmer and I wrote for Frontline, with supporting contributions from Romila Thapar, Richard Meadow, Iravatham Mahadevan, and Asko Parpola (Frontline, Oct-Nov. 2000).In the same token, Witzel’s most vocal supporters include the same people who ecstatically worship the AIT in India.Marxist intellectuals in India(with the sole exception of Romila Thapar who recently changed her views) still insist on teaching AIT to children

: After the Frontline articles went to press, public claims of Rajaram`s

: Harappan ``decipherment`` and fraudulent ``horse seal`` rapidly disappeared. As Rajaram`s star dimmed, however, renewed beating began of a much more ancient dead horse -- the Aryan Invasion Theory (``AIT``) -- of which, 50 years after the theory`s heyday, I am fantasized by Rajaram et al. as the archetypal Western champion.because MW is seen to support AIT wherever it suits him.: Early praisers of Talageri`s book include many familiar characters: Perennial Out-of-India advocate K. Elst, the Pan-Austric proponent P.Manansala, and a list of Indian superpatriots (most choosing to live abroad!) well-known to those acquainted with the myriad Hindutva websites financed in the U.S. They shall remain unnamed here.

: In the last decade, this same group of people has regularly

: denounced a long string of academic Indologists -- any, in fact, who point out the obvious differences between scholarly research and nationalistic propaganda -as ``Eurocentric,`` ``unscientific,`` ``racist,`` or worse. These denunciations must be pointed out and characterized in detail.3 paras devoted to personal attacks. Am yet to see anything about the Rg Veda.Even Western scholars admit that ‘racism’ play(ed)s a major role in Indology.: In my case, the personal attacks began a half decade ago with ananonymous ``review`` of a paper I published in 1995 on the formation of the Rgveda. The paper clashed in obvious ways with the Westward Ho! mentality of Out-of-India advocates like Rajaram and Talageri, who like to imagine India as the Mother Civilization. The attacks have increased since in intensity, reaching new heights following publication of the Frontline articles; those attacks are in many ways typified by a long and confused ``analysis`` in Talageri`s book of my same 1995 paper.Not all ‘revisionists’ hold the OIT. In fact there’s a strong section which holds the view that the whole of Indian subcontinent was the cradle of an ancient, single civilization. They base the theory on the latest technological advances: More violent polemics (but often written in amusing English) can be found directed against me now almost daily on the Internet. Recently I have been labeled ``the High Priest on Divinity Avenue,`` seconded by my ``alter boy`` (sic!) S. Farmer -- whom N.S. Rajaram recently styles in the far-right Organiser as my ``cohorts`` in writing the Frontline articles. (For this political article, I assume, Rajaram was paid more than ``one Rupees.``) More recently, my patriot-expatriot critics have split me as well into multiple selves, referring to my solo review of M. Mishra, EJVS 7-1, as the work of

: ``Witzel and co.`` (One Atmans, one wonders, or more?)

: Even more comic is N.S. Rajaram`s delightful syncretic cartouche that

: pictures me as a ``German Romantic Missionary Colonialist Racist Communist.``

: The farce continues. S. Talageri, during Rajaram`s recent ``Naimisha Vedic Workshop,`` held in March 2001 at the Mythic Society, Bangalore, is reported to have angrily denounced me as a ``Germo-centric Racist.`` (O grammatica, o mores!) More recent online demands call for a Big Brother operation to monitor what I teach in class. And still more recently, some have even tried to exert more direct pressure and have sought to denounce me with University authorities, badly misjudging the nature of unhindered academic research and of free speech in `western` style societies. For their edification: Harvard`s Motto is veritas, Latin for `truth.` satyam eva!

: Such is the price paid by those who publicly criticize resurgent mythological trends in studies of ancient India -- criticisms that are equivalent to ``denigrating Hinduism,`` according to of one of my patriotic-expatriate online critics. (``Hinduism,`` pray tell, in 2600 BCE or even 1200 BCE?)

: All this would be cause for no more than amusement, if such thinking were not doing so much damage to legitimate research involving ancient India -- and if the political motives underlying such fantasies were not so ugly. More on this as we continue.Funny…name-calling is certainly despicable…and often diverts the issue.

But Witzel seems to live in a dream world as well, if he thinks that all the polemics directed against him are politically motivated. It is rather difficult to believe that scholars like schaffer, Kenoyer and Renfrew

speak for the hindutvavadis.: * * *: Between giving lectures in my recent month-long stay at the

: centuries-old College de France, in the thought-inspiring city of Paris, I found time to wade through Talageri`s 544-page book systematically and to take some notes. Some of those notes are provided below. In the copious ones given here I deal only with the core of Talageri`s book, found in chapters 1-5 (pp. 1-160), where he gives his views of the formation of the Rgveda. The rest of his book, including his angry assault on my 1995 paper, depends on the views found in these opening chapters, and can thankfully be

: passed over here. If needed, detailed analysis of those sections can be presented, at leisure, on some future occasion. I will refer here only summarily to those chapters, which repeat much that he already said in a much-criticized 1993 book.

: The new picture of Rgvedic history painted by Talageri may in one sense be ``logical,`` as his supporters claim, but only if we accept the unreliable traditional sources, described below, that Talageri depends on in this book and its 1993 predecessor -- which tried to teach us that ``India was the original homeland of the Indo-European family of languages`` and the Mother of All Civilizations. Talageri`s current book is rich in similar fantasies but low on method and rigor, linguistic and historical knowledge, depending totally on Griffith`s badly outdated English translation (1889) of the RV.True, Griffith is outdated. But then who is ‘dated’?Griffith`s translation is more popular amongst the marxist intellectuals in India, than with the `revisionists` who depend more on xlations by Aurobindo, Pandit Gopalan Nair, Ramakrishna Ashram etc.: A revolution in world history, based on a reinterpretation of the RV, written by someone incapable of reading the original text? Such absurdities are only possible in the current intellectual climate of some sections of Indian society.Excellent point! I agree that one should be ‘capable’ of reading the ‘original text’ before ‘theorising’ on Vedic Texts.

: Similar fantasies show up in the works of other revisers of Indian history and/or Hindutva proponents -- by Danino, Elst, Feuerstein, Frawley (aka Vedacharya Vamadeva Shastri), Kak, Kalyanaraman, Klostermaier, Rajaram, Ushanas Richter, etc. The works of these writers, who imagine themselves at the vanguard of a vast ``paradigm change`` in history, will be be discussed in an EJVS article scheduled as the next issue.Well, the paradigm change is obvious. It started, of course with the demolishment of the 100-year old AIT.(and hopefully with it the last vestiges of Nazism)

SRIdhar ,#68

Your guru Talageri ,Rajaram,Jha,Kak ,Wallia all vested arya brahminfox guarding the chicken of AIT shown to be unscrupulous cospirator of Brahmin Society a mafia present in America besides in India believing like the zionist & nazis both rascist

Talageri Historical Analysis Part 1

by Witzel`s Review on April 3, 2001 at 12:37:47 PM

in response to Attn: Those interested in Indology by Jap





ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES

(EJVS)

Vol. 7 (2001), issue 2 (March 31)



(©) ISSN 1084-7561

CONTENTS

EDITOR`S NOTE

REVIEW ARTICLE (Saavadhaanapattra no. 2):

Michael Witzel

WESTWARD HO !

The Incredible Wanderlust of the Rgvedic Tribes Exposed by S. Talageri

A Review of: Shrikant G. Talageri, The Rigveda. A historical analysis.



EDITOR`S NOTE

In certain Internet circles, S. Talageri`s The Rigveda. A

historical analysis, is being lauded as ``rational,`` ``logical,`` ``solid,`` ``groundbreaking,`` and so on. Any new study of the Rgveda is welcome, since the impression is common that little historical information can be found in the oldest Indian text. I already emphasized this in articles published in 1989 and 1995, and the situation is still basically the same: No detailed

study of the Rgvedic data has been published for a long time. Therefore, one might expect Talageri`s 500-page book to be of great relevance for Vedic studies and for Indian history in general. Unfortunately, however, the attached review suggests that Talageri`s ``historical analysis`` is far less significant than what is being claimed for it over the Internet. Let readers see for themselves!

Perhaps one should not have been surprised by this conclusion.

Talageri`s most vocal supporters include the same people who ecstatically welcomed Rajaram and Jha`s ``definitive decipherment`` of the Indus script and supposed discovery of a Harappan ``horse seal`` -- at least until those claims were demolished in two articles that Steve Farmer and I wrote for Frontline, with supporting contributions from Romila Thapar, Richard Meadow, Iravatham Mahadevan, and Asko Parpola (Frontline, Oct-Nov. 2000).

After the Frontline articles went to press, public claims of Rajaram`s

Harappan ``decipherment`` and fraudulent ``horse seal`` rapidly disappeared. As Rajaram`s star dimmed, however, renewed beating began of a much more ancient dead horse -- the Aryan Invasion Theory (``AIT``) -- of which, 50 years after the theory`s heyday, I am fantasized by Rajaram et al. as the archetypal Western champion.

Early praisers of Talageri`s book include many familiar characters: Perennial Out-of-India advocate K. Elst, the Pan-Austric proponent P.Manansala, and a list of Indian superpatriots (most choosing to live abroad!) well-known to those acquainted with the myriad Hindutva websites financed in the U.S. They shall remain unnamed here.

In the last decade, this same group of people has regularly

denounced a long string of academic Indologists -- any, in fact, who point out the obvious differences between scholarly research and nationalistic propaganda -as ``Eurocentric,`` ``unscientific,`` ``racist,`` or worse. These denunciations must be pointed out and characterized in detail.

In my case, the personal attacks began a half decade ago with ananonymous ``review`` of a paper I published in 1995 on the formation of the Rgveda. The paper clashed in obvious ways with the Westward Ho! mentality of Out-of-India advocates like Rajaram and Talageri, who like to imagine India as the Mother Civilization. The attacks have increased since in intensity, reaching new heights following publication of the Frontline articles; those attacks are in many ways typified by a long and confused ``analysis`` in Talageri`s book of my same 1995 paper.

More violent polemics (but often written in amusing English) can be found directed against me now almost daily on the Internet. Recently I have been labeled ``the High Priest on Divinity Avenue,`` seconded by my ``alter boy`` (sic!) S. Farmer -- whom N.S. Rajaram recently styles in the far-right Organiser as my ``cohorts`` in writing the Frontline articles. (For this political article, I assume, Rajaram was paid more than ``one Rupees.``) More recently, my patriot-expatriot critics have split me as well into multiple selves, referring to my solo review of M. Mishra, EJVS 7-1, as the work of

``Witzel and co.`` (One Atmans, one wonders, or more?)

Even more comic is N.S. Rajaram`s delightful syncretic cartouche that

pictures me as a ``German Romantic Missionary Colonialist Racist Communist.``

The farce continues. S. Talageri, during Rajaram`s recent ``Naimisha Vedic Workshop,`` held in March 2001 at the Mythic Society, Bangalore, is reported to have angrily denounced me as a ``Germo-centric Racist.`` (O grammatica, o mores!) More recent online demands call for a Big Brother operation to monitor what I teach in class. And still more recently, some have even tried to exert more direct pressure and have sought to denounce me with University authorities, badly misjudging the nature of unhindered academic research and of free speech in `western` style societies. For their edification: Harvard`s Motto is veritas, Latin for `truth.` satyam eva!

Such is the price paid by those who publicly criticize resurgent mythological trends in studies of ancient India -- criticisms that are equivalent to ``denigrating Hinduism,`` according to of one of my patriotic-expatriate online critics. (``Hinduism,`` pray tell, in 2600 BCE or even 1200 BCE?)

All this would be cause for no more than amusement, if such thinking were not doing so much damage to legitimate research involving ancient India -- and if the political motives underlying such fantasies were not so ugly. More on this as we continue.

* * *

Between giving lectures in my recent month-long stay at the

centuries-old College de France, in the thought-inspiring city of Paris, I found time to wade through Talageri`s 544-page book systematically and to take some notes. Some of those notes are provided below. In the copious ones given here I deal only with the core of Talageri`s book, found in chapters 1-5 (pp. 1-160), where he gives his views of the formation of the Rgveda. The rest of his book, including his angry assault on my 1995 paper, depends on the views found in these opening chapters, and can thankfully be

passed over here. If needed, detailed analysis of those sections can be presented, at leisure, on some future occasion. I will refer here only summarily to those chapters, which repeat much that he already said in a much-criticized 1993 book.

The new picture of Rgvedic history painted by Talageri may in one sense be ``logical,`` as his supporters claim, but only if we accept the unreliable traditional sources, described below, that Talageri depends on in this book and its 1993 predecessor -- which tried to teach us that ``India was the original homeland of the Indo-European family of languages`` and the Mother of All Civilizations. Talageri`s current book is rich in similar fantasies but low on method and rigor, linguistic and historical knowledge, depending totally on Griffith`s badly outdated English translation (1889) of the RV.

A revolution in world history, based on a reinterpretation of the RV, written by someone incapable of reading the original text? Such absurdities are only possible in the current intellectual climate of some sections of Indian society.

Similar fantasies show up in the works of other revisers of Indian history and/or Hindutva proponents -- by Danino, Elst, Feuerstein, Frawley (aka Vedacharya Vamadeva Shastri), Kak, Kalyanaraman, Klostermaier, Rajaram, Ushanas Richter, etc. The works of these writers, who imagine themselves at the vanguard of a vast ``paradigm change`` in history, will be be discussed in an EJVS article scheduled as the next issue.

How many more failed attempts of a reconstruction of oldest Indian history will it take the internet Elsts, Kalyanaramans, Rajarams and Talageris to finally realize that all such Aryan fantasies are just that -- a patriotic or chauvinistic, ultimately pre-enlightenment enterprise, and not the so much hoped for ``paradigm change``?

A balanced account of ancient-most India can only emerge from a rigorous examination of ancient Vedic sources studied on their own terms and counterbalanced by other scientific evidence. Such an account cannot arise from analysis of the RV or related sources viewed through purANic filters, nationalistic or Hindutva myths, or `popular` Victorian translations that are already over a century out of date.

MW



© ISSN 1084-7561

REVIEW ARTICLE

Michael Witzel

Harvard University

WESTWARD HO !

The Incredible Wanderlust of the Rgvedic Tribes Exposed by S.Talageri

(Saavadhaanapattra no. 2)

Review of: Shrikant G. Talageri, The Rigveda. A historical analysis. New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan 2000, pp. xxiv, 520. ISBN 81-7742-0s10-0. Rs.750; http://voi.org/books/rig/

Any new study of the historical content of the Rgveda is very

welcome since the impression is common that little historical information can be found in the oldest Indian texts (Witzel 1989, 1995, 1997). One could therefore hope that Talageri`s 500-page discussion would be of great relevance for Vedic Studies and for Indian prehistory in general. Any fresh evaluation of the data and of previous conclusions (including those of the present writer) could be expected to further advance Vedic studies. It is with high hopes, thus, that one opens Talageri`s long and diligent study.

It is a great disappointment that any close review of Talageri`s

``historical analysis`` refuses to yield positive results.

What does Talageri (T.) want to achieve with this book? The study claims to present an unbiased, text-internal analysis of the historical data in India`s oldest text. The book`s claims are characterized by the blurb on the book`s jacket (T.`s own words?), which accurately summarizes the tenor of the book. Talageri, we are told:

``... has gone directly to the primary sources without any preconceived

notions, and examined as well as analysed the available information with the help of traditional tools of interpretation.... he has elaborated a historical analysis of the Rigveda on the basis of

genealogies of composers of the hymns preserved in the anukramaNIs or

indices of the Rigveda. The Rigveda consists of ten maNDalas, each

representing a different era of history. The interrelations between

composers within the hymns, the references to Kings and RSis, the family structure of the maNDalas, and system of ascription of hymns in the maNDalas, go to show that the serial order in which the maNDalas are arranged bears no relationship with their chronological order.

As a first step, therefore, Talageri has established the internal

chronology of the Rigveda by classifying the maNDalas as Early, Middle and Late. Next, he presents the geographical picture which emerges from the chronologically arranged maNDalas, particularly the evidence of river-names, place-names and animal-names. The combined evidence gives a single unanimous verdict -- the Indo-Aryans were inhabitants of the interior of India, and their direction of expansion was from the east to the west and the northwest. Finally, he ... concludes that it was the Indo-Aryans who migrated to all lands covered by speakers of Indo-Iranian and Indo-European languages...``

Talageri sums up his views further in his Preface (p.

xviii), where he ties the aims of this book closely to his 1993 study:

``...the Vedic Aryans were the pUrus of traditional history. ... the Rigveda narrows down the identity of the particular Vedic Aryans of the Rigvedic period to a section from among the pUrus - the bharatas. This book ...shows that a detailed analysis of the Rigveda, far from weakening our[earlier 1993] theory, only makes it invincible.``

There is enough evidence even here to demonstrate the frustrating contradictions in Talageri`s book. Thus after being told that he goes ``directly to the primary sources without any preconceived notions,`` we find that Talageri`s analysis is made ``with the help of traditional tools of interpretation`` like the anukramaNIs -- which (unknown to Talageri) have been recognized since the days of Macdonell (1886) at best as compositions of the late-Vedic period. (The text of the anukramaNIs that Talageri himself uses was actually redacted in the medieval period, as we will see

infra!)

Talageri`s 1993 book was rightly criticized for its heavy dependence on traditional sources like the purANas. T. acknowledges that problem at the beginning of his new book (p. xvi) --clearly suggesting that the same problem will not be found here -- only to tell us two pages later (xix) that his RV analysis depends on ``indispensable and unassailable traditional information contained in certain basic texts`` like the anukramaNIs, which reflect the same purANic ideas found in his 1993 book! (He also slips a lot of purANic materials in the backdoor in this work, as we shall see below.)

Talageri`s reliance on traditional, post-Rgvedic sources in interpreting the RV, despite his claims to the contrary, is only the first of the countless errors that doom his endeavor from the start. Below I discuss a small cross-section of those errors. I begin with a summary of the ten main sections in my critique. For resilient readers wishing more data, further evidence on each of these points is given in the main body of the critique, drawn quickly from the notes on Talageri`s book that I made in Paris.

CRITIQUE SUMMARY

§1 Stratification of the Rgveda. In his book, Talageri develops a

transparently false stratification of the 1028 hymns of the RV,

contradicting well-known evidence by claiming that composition of each of the 10 maNDalas (including the so-called family books) originated in its own unique time period -- one succeeding the other in tidy historical steps as the Vedic tribes supposedly marched Westwards. (He makes an exception of maNDala 1, whose hymns he distributes to three different periods; his march Westwards also involves a specific rearrangement of the 10 books; for details, see the web chart at the link given in §6, below.) Talageri does

not acknowledge known details involving the redaction history of the family books, each of which contains late as well as early hymns. Nor does he mention known complications in the codification of the RV ascribed to zAkalya, made sometime near the middle of the first millennium BCE. (These issues are discussed in extenso in Oldenberg 1888, whose general position has been accepted by every serious RV scholar ever since.) Leaving aside his citations of a handful of studies available in English, Talageri does not mention any of the vast scholarly literature from the past 150 years that discusses the redaction of the RV; nor does he know of Oldenberg. Ignorance may be bliss, but not when it comes to revolutionizing current

views of India`s oldest text -- and much of ancient Eurasian history to boot.

§2 The anukramaNIs: Garbage in, Garbage out. As suggested earlier, in his ``analysis`` of the RV, Talageri depends heavily on the anukramaNIs -- late-and post-Vedic lists of RV poets (many of them clearly fictional), deities, and meters. These lists are closely related to other later and traditional sources, including the purANas. The most common versions of them, including the one used by Talageri, were still being revised in the early Middle Ages.

Given Talageri`s dependence on such sources, the venerable computer motto, ``garbage in, garbage out,`` clearly applies to his book. Talageri begins his analysis with post-Rgvedic conceptions of RV chieftains, priests/poets, and the like, drawn from the anukramaNIs and (surreptitiously) the purANas. Not surprisingly, this leads him to propose views of the historical contents of the RV that themselves reflect post-Rgvedic traditions. T. not only seems oblivious to these facts, but is unaware as well that competing versions of the anukramaNIs exist. Indeed, he makes the startling claim at the beginning of his book (p. 7) that ``the anukramaNIs were part and parcel of the Rigvedic text from the most ancient times`` -- claiming further that these lists must lie at the grounds of any serious analysis of the text.

Amateurish errors like this are compounded by the fact that the version of these lists that Talageri (unknowingly) depends on -- an early medieval redaction of late-Vedic kAtyAyana`s sarvAnukramaNI -- views things from the East, which was a prime area of late Vedic ritual reform and canonization (see Witzel 1997). The result is that T.`s claim that early RV books originated in the East and later ones in the West -- the grounds of his imaginary Aryan march to the West -- is bolstered by his unsuspected dependence on post-RV Eastern sources. In short, Talageri`s new book, like his old one, is a purANa-like fantasy, deriving from the same confusion of ancient and not-so-ancient sources that doomed his heavily criticized 1993 effort.

§3 Victorian Sanskrit? At no point in Talageri`s book do we find any

suggestions that he has a genuine working knowledge of Sanskrit -- let

alone of the obscure Old Vedic forms of the RV. As noted earlier, Talageri relies throughout on Griffith`s outdated Victorian translation (1889), which even in its own day was aimed at a popular (and not scholarly)audience. The translation is also marred by its heavy dependence on sAyaNa`s late-medieval scholastic commentary (cf. Griffith`s preface to the first edition). Obviously anticipating heavy criticism for his dependence on Griffith, Talageri testily defends the accuracy of the translation, taking potshots at me in the process. He does not reveal what philological criteria he used in judging the translation, since it is clear from Sanskrit errors in the text (discussed infra) that he cannot read theoriginal on his own.

The RV is one of the most obscure and problematic ancient texts known. It is not too much to ask that those who claim to reinterpret it radically -- and to reinterpret much of world history along with it -- be capable of reading it in its original form. At a minimum, one would expect Talageri to consult one or more of the modern scholarly translations, accompanied by critical philological notes, produced in the 20th century by Geldner (German), Renou (French), or Elizarenkova(Russian). But Talageri, who cannot read any modern scholarly language besides English, does not leave a clue that he is aware that these works exist.

§4 Failures in the `Petty Conjectural Pseudo-Science` of Linguistics.

Unlike his colleague and sometimes supporter, N.S. Rajaram, Talageri does not reject the results of what Rajaram styles ``the petty conjectural pseudo-science`` of linguistics. Indeed, the final chapters of Talageri`s book haphazardly draw from a handful of linguistic works. Despite his scholarly pretensions, however, nothing in his book or its 1993 predecessor suggests that T. can claim anything approaching a serious grasp of the subject. His lack of philological knowledge deprives him of useful tools that he would need (if he could in fact read Old Vedic) in interpreting key items of pre-pANinean grammar and of disputed Rgvedic words. Proper use of

linguistics would also have helped him harness his undisciplined etymologizing, which results in his countless false deductions concerning pre-RV history; on all these points, see below.

§5 Trita`s View From Inside the Well? Other Missing Sciences. Other

humanistic and scientific fields critical to RV scholarship are neglected by Talageri as well, even though he has the rich resources of the Bombay University Library close at hand. Consulting a few standard scholarly resources would have saved T. from the myriad of factual errors that litter his book. Talageri demonstrates little knowledge of the realia of the RV period, displaying ignorance of the workings of tribal societies, early states, the habitat of the Gangetic dolphin, and many similar items noted in the following extended discussion.

§6 Mythological Chronologies: RSis of the Kali Yuga? Due to the

methodological problems noted above, one can hardly expect to find many reliable conclusions in Talageri`s book. Some of his most ridiculous claims lie in his chronologies -- an old story to anyone acquainted with the works of other nationalistic ``revisionist`` historians. Talageri imagines that the whole of the RV took a minimum of 2000 years to compose, extending from roughly 3500-1500 BCE. (For an overview of Talageri`s timeline, see the chart from his book, with critical notes by S. Farmer, posted at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/talageri.html). Talageri`s impossible

chronological ideas are tied to a number of obvious anachronisms. Thus in Talageri`s historical fantasy we find purANa-inspired Eastern Rgvedic ``dynasties`` and ``kingdoms`` in the Gangetic Plain, which was inhabited at the time in question only by Neolithic hunter-gatherers and early chalcolithic farmers; we discover fast Rgvedic horses-and-chariots nearly two millennia before any reputable archaeologist would place them there;and so on. Again, all this is familiar territory for Indologists acquainted with the works of Frawley, Rajaram, Kak, Kalyanaraman, and so on.

§7 Talageri`s Geography: A Moveable Feast. Talageri`s RV geography is

similar skewed by purANa-inspired fictions. A combination of bad RV

stratigraphy, ignorance of Old Vedic, a neglect of standard scholarly

research, an inadequate grasp of South Asian zoological facts, and a naive confusion of mythological and historical RV references help Talageri deliver the desired locations, rivers, and peoples required in his imaginary march of Vedic tribes to the West.

§8 Have Words, Will Travel! Free-form etymologizing worthy of the Indian nationalist P. N. Oak lets Talageri interpret the names of persons, tribes, and local animals as ``Aryan`` or ``Eastern`` (as his model requires) when the linguistic evidence points squarely elsewhere -- often to pre-Indo-Aryan substrates. Talageri`s embarrassing lack of scholarly linguistic and philological skills leaves him oblivious to these errors, some of which I discuss below.

§9 Westward Ho! Talageri the Patriot. The confidently asserted

(``invincible``) revolutionary conclusions that Talageri draws concerning the Westward drift of Vedic tribes -- which imagines them moving from the Gangetic Motherland into the Panjab, and from the Panjab to Iran and to Europe -- are familiar Hindutva fantasies. The expert knowledge of Old Vedic, Old Iranian, and other ancient Indo-European languages that would be needed to prove such surprising conclusions are not, as earlier suggested, the kinds of linguistic skills displayed in Talageri`s work. Instead, he contents himself with citing a hodgepodge of linguistic facts (and fictions) -- often out of context -- from whatever studies in English happen to fall in his hands. All these are raised to back his fantastic claims that Vedic civilization was the ``original homeland of the Indo-European family of languages`` and ultimately of all Indo-European mythology and culture.

This, of course, is an exact reverse of the long-accepted view, supported by over a century and a half of research, that an Indo-Aryan migration, whose specific nature is still being studied, took place into the subcontinent. No matter that T.`s revolutionary insights are contradicted by a myriad of well-known linguistic, zoological and archaeological data:

Westward ho!

All these fantasies are driven by the perceived need to prove the ``hoariness`` of ancient Bharata, supposedly represented by unbroken

traditions reaching way back to pre-Harappan times -- that is to 7th

millennium Baluchistan(!). This, of course, would make them the oldest

traditions on the planet: The RV, as Talageri declares on p. xix, ``is the oldest and hoariest religious text of the oldest living religion in the world today: Hinduism.`` Underlying these claims is the familiar Hindutva agenda that suggests that all non-Hindus are ultimately ``foreign`` peoples in India, and a blot on the body politic. bhArata ueber alles!

In short, T.`s book is driven by current political realities in India and not by a l`art pour l`art search for truth. This standpoint is reinforced by the uniformly bellicose style of the book, which throughout illustrates some of the least attractive aspects of pANDita style.

Talageri, like the medieval debater, is eager everywhere to score points for his thesis. Nowhere are obvious counter-arguments to his views seriously entertained.

§10 Marching Backwards into History. As I emphasized in the paper that initially triggered Talageri`s polemics (Witzel 1995), reconstruction of the historical data locked in the RV demands the systematic collection and analysis of many diverse types of data scattered in the text. One powerful way to promote this end is to generate multidimensional computational grids, analyzable through sophisticated software, of all useful data concerning poets, chieftains, geographical locations, linguistic and dialectical variants, meters, substrate words, grammatical innovations,

linguistic archaisms, and so on, found in different strata of the work.

Points of convergence, divergence, and overlap in these multidimensional RV ``maps`` suggest new and reliable ways to stratify the text and to uncover the historical data locked in it. Researchers from all over the world have been invited to join in perfecting these tools, which have already begun to throw new light on the early history of (Rg)Vedic peoples.

Ironically, in his new book Talageri has adopted something crudely approximating the methods first suggested in my 1995 paper, though not using computer programs. But he has approached the job without the requisite language skills, scholarly acumen, or historical and political objectivity to do a credible job. Moreover, rather than basing his analysis strictly on RV data, as he pretends he does, his analysis repeatedly confuses late-Vedic redactions and interpretations with what is found in the original RV text. The result is that his book manages at best to reassert familiar Hindutva myths using obfuscating claims about ``new`` methods, all of which is, as expected, uniformly praised by the ``usual suspects`` active in the Hindutva Cottage Industry.

The methodological and factual absurdities in Talageri`s book will be obvious to any serious Vedic scholar once he or she tediously identifies the late- and post-Vedic origins or the data populating the morass of unverified charts and lists dotting the book. It will not at all be obvious to less specialized readers, including the Indian lay persons constituting Talageri`s main audience. On this point, Talageri`s book and the writings of other rightwing Indian propagandists like Rajaram perfectly coincide.

Serious attempts to understand ancient Indian history are unncessarily but tediously diverted by the intellectual detours we are sent on in books like Talageri`s. Solid reconstruction of the history hidden in the RV demands linguistic rigor, independence from purANic-like worldviews, and above all a kind of political integrity not evident anywhere in Talageri`s book.

DETAILED DISCUSSION

(continued with 2 more parts)



Michael Witzel

Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University

2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)

home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/