The Forgotten Children of God
Zalan Alam December 5, 2001
#102 Posted by sadna on December 10, 2001 11:46:29 am
Prem, sb, Pankaj
Prem #98
Re Hanuman, I believe he has a large enough heart to accomodate a few advertisements as well, a few of his idiot bhakts on the other hand..
Actually, I wouldnot mind joining any (decent) protest against nude goddesses and other things I cannot appreciate about depictions of Hindusim, esp of the Pat Robertson-Southern-Baptists-`Hindus are devil worshippers with no sense of personal responsibility` variety. But IMO vandalism as protest is totally unacceptable and exerting muscle as a cheap substitute for convincing other people is the greater and more urgent evil.
sb #104
I believe part of it is that Jews have been taking cr-p for centuries and they have developed a cultural resilience to abuse and adversity, basically cultural mechanisms to handle disadvantageous `terms of engagement` with those around them. EXCEPT in Israel, where they feel the power to dictate terms.
The moral of the story which can be applied to everyone, including Hindtuva-inclined-suffering-for-centuries folks is, scratch just about anyone and find a human being who likes to wield power as a bully.
Pankaj #various
Enjoyed reading your posts. Have a good vacation!
----
For anyone interested in early 20th-century Kerala history and caste reform. You may have to persevere a bit but the fact remains some details and insights are still relevant for today`s situation elsewhere in the country.
http://www.ambedkar.org/books/AYYAN-KALI.htm
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#101 Posted by sb on December 10, 2001 10:00:02 am
hamidm #90
`i wish hollywood would trash islam as much as they have trashed hinduism ...`
You may not know it, but no, you dont - for if that happens it is the elite and the secular of
the Islamic world that would lead the `victimized` in their protests and violence.
`i hate to admit this but hindus and christians seem to be more secure about their religion
than the rabid muslims and jews`
That is drawing an unfair similarity between the Muslims and the Jews - almost all the
Pakistanis I knew as more than mere acquaintances were `liberal` and not that religious,
and the few Jews I know would either wear religious garb and chant Hebrew verses day long or were slightly crazy (one is born and raised an American but wanted to go fight for Israel in case there`s a war) - but if I were given the choice to live as a minority with either group, I would pick the latter in a heartbeat. For when there is a difference in opinion (not religious), I can talk to, argue with the Jew and still not suspect that the person is from another planet...
#100 Posted by anNy on December 10, 2001 10:00:02 am
``You might enjoy a book called “Koolaids, or the Art of War” by Rabih Alemeddine. (or Alameddine?)``
I will look it up..have u by any chance red `the story of God (as told by himself)` by franco ferrucci?
I will look it up..have u by any chance red `the story of God (as told by himself)` by franco ferrucci?
#99 Posted by Pankaj on December 10, 2001 3:39:50 am
Okay guys, I am again taking a break from Chowk. Go to go to India for vacations.
Bye all
Bye all
#98 Posted by Pankaj on December 10, 2001 3:39:50 am
Drumz
What impresses me is not Indian theology, but the remarkably well developed ancient Indian philosophy. Long time back when I was poring though the pages of an upanishada I came across a dialogue between Yajnavalkya and Maitreyi(not sure it was she) where he tells Maitreyi that one loves his spouse not because he loves him/her but because he loves himself. This verse then follows with several examples conveying the thought that one loves his near and dear ones, property, friends etc. because he REALLY loves him-self. Being almost a minor in psychology, this conclusion drawn several millenia back impresses me a lot. What it essentially means is that every individual has this abstract concept of ``self``(some call it conciousness``, and the spouse, near and dear ones, property etc. in due time come to form a part and parcel of his own self. This might also explain the possesiveness of the person,thing etc that one loves too much, since it comes to form the very ``self`` of a person. This unconciousness development of one`s self through association with outer worldly things is one of the main causes of sorrow according to Buddha. When your loved one leaves you, it hurts because a part of your ``self`` shatters confusing you(incomplete self generates a kind of temporary identity crisis) and causing a deep mental trauma. So Upanishadas say that a wise man voluntarily attempts not to form his concept of ``self`` by association with things outside him material or non-material. Such a concept of ``self`` that is formed in explicit relation to the things outside you may cause deep sorrow when those things are no longer with you. This is what upanishadas call ``Know your self``.
What impresses me is not Indian theology, but the remarkably well developed ancient Indian philosophy. Long time back when I was poring though the pages of an upanishada I came across a dialogue between Yajnavalkya and Maitreyi(not sure it was she) where he tells Maitreyi that one loves his spouse not because he loves him/her but because he loves himself. This verse then follows with several examples conveying the thought that one loves his near and dear ones, property, friends etc. because he REALLY loves him-self. Being almost a minor in psychology, this conclusion drawn several millenia back impresses me a lot. What it essentially means is that every individual has this abstract concept of ``self``(some call it conciousness``, and the spouse, near and dear ones, property etc. in due time come to form a part and parcel of his own self. This might also explain the possesiveness of the person,thing etc that one loves too much, since it comes to form the very ``self`` of a person. This unconciousness development of one`s self through association with outer worldly things is one of the main causes of sorrow according to Buddha. When your loved one leaves you, it hurts because a part of your ``self`` shatters confusing you(incomplete self generates a kind of temporary identity crisis) and causing a deep mental trauma. So Upanishadas say that a wise man voluntarily attempts not to form his concept of ``self`` by association with things outside him material or non-material. Such a concept of ``self`` that is formed in explicit relation to the things outside you may cause deep sorrow when those things are no longer with you. This is what upanishadas call ``Know your self``.
#97 Posted by Pankaj on December 10, 2001 3:39:50 am
Drumz
I think the essence of Hinduism( as I see it) is best summarized in a verse in Vrihad-Aranyaka(The Great Aranyaka, an upanishad composed around 600 BC) where it says, `` Ekam Brahmam, vipram bahudha vadanti``, ie there is one Brahm, but wise men call it by different names. Actually if you go thorugh all the Hindu literature, you will find several contradictory things. This is because Hinduism was not based on the teachings of one person, but it is like a school of thought and philosophy where several thought-streams, sometimes contradictory, coexisted side by side.
The proponents of these thought-streams often conducted ``shastrartha`` ie public debates on the relative merits of their own school. This is perhaps the reason for tolerence and assimilation of diverse thoughts in the ancient Indian culture. Any Hindu is free to choose between existing thought-streams based on his own logic or even to develop his own independent one. There is nothing like finality or absoluteness of any thing in Hinduism, not even Brahm since some schools of thought are agnostic. There is agnostic Buddhism with its spiritual richness at one end and Charvak school with its pure emphasis on materialism at the other.
``Do you know why the elephant, rat, monkey ete were used to describe brahma. What qualities of brahma were these demigods trying to portray?
``
To understand any religion, you should put it in the proper context of time and place. The way Brahm is described is such an abstract and all pervasive concept that it could not be related to humans in any way. This(8th to 3rd century BC) was an age of intense ``shastrartha`` ie debates and agnosticism was a natural corollary of it. The Trinity ie Brahma,Vishnu, Mahesh was a more personalized version of Brahm that later virtually all but replaced Brahm. It is interesting to note that this concept of Brahm, though originated with Rig-Veda actually developed between 8th to 3rd century BC. You can obviously see its impact on Buddhism and Jainism both of which are agnostic to a high degree. Most of the relatively modern deities like Ganesh(okay elephant God for you), Hanuman etc appear to have caught the public imagination in later centuries. The reasons may be multiple. Perhaps by being a devotee of Hanuman who is considered to be the greatest Ram-Bhakta, a person derives satisfaction in being a servant of God. I dont know the exact reasons how and why these demi-Gods were popularized, though I can speculate. IMO, when the Aryans spread into far flung areas, being far lesser in number than the locals, they chose to spread their culture by incorporating numerous local deities into their already existing framework of thought(personal Gods). Thus came into being thousands of deities whose origin can usually be traced back to local customs and beliefs instead of the Vedas/upanishadas. Thus although it is difficult to point out the exact reasons for the popularity of these deities it appears the reasons are basically a function of local beliefs. But then, it is just a speculation.
I think the essence of Hinduism( as I see it) is best summarized in a verse in Vrihad-Aranyaka(The Great Aranyaka, an upanishad composed around 600 BC) where it says, `` Ekam Brahmam, vipram bahudha vadanti``, ie there is one Brahm, but wise men call it by different names. Actually if you go thorugh all the Hindu literature, you will find several contradictory things. This is because Hinduism was not based on the teachings of one person, but it is like a school of thought and philosophy where several thought-streams, sometimes contradictory, coexisted side by side.
The proponents of these thought-streams often conducted ``shastrartha`` ie public debates on the relative merits of their own school. This is perhaps the reason for tolerence and assimilation of diverse thoughts in the ancient Indian culture. Any Hindu is free to choose between existing thought-streams based on his own logic or even to develop his own independent one. There is nothing like finality or absoluteness of any thing in Hinduism, not even Brahm since some schools of thought are agnostic. There is agnostic Buddhism with its spiritual richness at one end and Charvak school with its pure emphasis on materialism at the other.
``Do you know why the elephant, rat, monkey ete were used to describe brahma. What qualities of brahma were these demigods trying to portray?
``
To understand any religion, you should put it in the proper context of time and place. The way Brahm is described is such an abstract and all pervasive concept that it could not be related to humans in any way. This(8th to 3rd century BC) was an age of intense ``shastrartha`` ie debates and agnosticism was a natural corollary of it. The Trinity ie Brahma,Vishnu, Mahesh was a more personalized version of Brahm that later virtually all but replaced Brahm. It is interesting to note that this concept of Brahm, though originated with Rig-Veda actually developed between 8th to 3rd century BC. You can obviously see its impact on Buddhism and Jainism both of which are agnostic to a high degree. Most of the relatively modern deities like Ganesh(okay elephant God for you), Hanuman etc appear to have caught the public imagination in later centuries. The reasons may be multiple. Perhaps by being a devotee of Hanuman who is considered to be the greatest Ram-Bhakta, a person derives satisfaction in being a servant of God. I dont know the exact reasons how and why these demi-Gods were popularized, though I can speculate. IMO, when the Aryans spread into far flung areas, being far lesser in number than the locals, they chose to spread their culture by incorporating numerous local deities into their already existing framework of thought(personal Gods). Thus came into being thousands of deities whose origin can usually be traced back to local customs and beliefs instead of the Vedas/upanishadas. Thus although it is difficult to point out the exact reasons for the popularity of these deities it appears the reasons are basically a function of local beliefs. But then, it is just a speculation.
#96 Posted by ZafarA on December 10, 2001 3:39:50 am
Reply anNy # 91
Very clever very clever, mashallah!
You might enjoy a book called “Koolaids, or the Art of War” by Rabih Alemeddine. (or Alameddine?)
It has similar dialogs scattered through it which involve (I think) the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Ayn Rand, Tom Cruise and Lord Krishna. Most enlightening.
Very clever very clever, mashallah!
You might enjoy a book called “Koolaids, or the Art of War” by Rabih Alemeddine. (or Alameddine?)
It has similar dialogs scattered through it which involve (I think) the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Ayn Rand, Tom Cruise and Lord Krishna. Most enlightening.
#95 Posted by Prem on December 10, 2001 3:39:50 am
``Recently an advertising agency got into trouble for inviting Hanuman to reveal that in his heart dwelled XYZ brand atta or something(I am not joking, I think even arrests were made).``
LOLOLOL...this is so cool! I love the guy who did this...should be awarded a few special brownies for creativity.
Some of you might not know the context here. Basically, Hanuman was the greatest devotee of Lord Ram. Once he is supposed to have torn open his heart to reveal Ram living there.
P.S. No, I can`t tell any more about the mechanics of how Hanuman did that. He did it despite my best advice.
LOLOLOL...this is so cool! I love the guy who did this...should be awarded a few special brownies for creativity.
Some of you might not know the context here. Basically, Hanuman was the greatest devotee of Lord Ram. Once he is supposed to have torn open his heart to reveal Ram living there.
P.S. No, I can`t tell any more about the mechanics of how Hanuman did that. He did it despite my best advice.
#94 Posted by Prem on December 10, 2001 3:39:50 am
anNy # 91
anNy, that was brilliant. Gods are as lost as the rest of us. We should help them out by figuring things out for ourselves, but we keep running up to them, like little children, for every damn thing.
anNy, that was brilliant. Gods are as lost as the rest of us. We should help them out by figuring things out for ourselves, but we keep running up to them, like little children, for every damn thing.
#93 Posted by sadna on December 9, 2001 11:31:58 pm
hamidm #90
`` i am quite envious of how hindus in general don`t get their shorts all knotted up over these silly movies ....``
Actually, in general Hindus maynot get their shorts knotted, but there is absolutely NO short supply of nutcases may I assure you.
IJ and the Temple of Doom is/was banned in India, for instance. A famous painter MF Hussain`s painting exhibition was vandalised for his depiction of a goddess in the nude and Shiv Sainiks thought fit to demonstrate in front of his house wearing only their `shorts` (mercifully). Cinema theatres were burnt down for showing a movie Fire in which the lesbian protagonist was named Sita? They burnt down the sets of another film shooting Water, because of its depiction of widows in Benares even AFTER the script had been approved and passed by the govt.
These guys even managed to work up a froth at GW Bush who has a dog named India. Many man and dog hours were spent protesting this vehemently with cooperation of local canines with Western sounding names.
Recently an advertising agency got into trouble for inviting Hanuman to reveal that in his heart dwelled XYZ brand atta or something(I am not joking, I think even arrests were made).
Feel better? OK, there are no bolts of lightning descend from the heavens, but crowbars and hockey sticks can be good local approximations.
`` i am quite envious of how hindus in general don`t get their shorts all knotted up over these silly movies ....``
Actually, in general Hindus maynot get their shorts knotted, but there is absolutely NO short supply of nutcases may I assure you.
IJ and the Temple of Doom is/was banned in India, for instance. A famous painter MF Hussain`s painting exhibition was vandalised for his depiction of a goddess in the nude and Shiv Sainiks thought fit to demonstrate in front of his house wearing only their `shorts` (mercifully). Cinema theatres were burnt down for showing a movie Fire in which the lesbian protagonist was named Sita? They burnt down the sets of another film shooting Water, because of its depiction of widows in Benares even AFTER the script had been approved and passed by the govt.
These guys even managed to work up a froth at GW Bush who has a dog named India. Many man and dog hours were spent protesting this vehemently with cooperation of local canines with Western sounding names.
Recently an advertising agency got into trouble for inviting Hanuman to reveal that in his heart dwelled XYZ brand atta or something(I am not joking, I think even arrests were made).
Feel better? OK, there are no bolts of lightning descend from the heavens, but crowbars and hockey sticks can be good local approximations.
#92 Posted by tahmed321 on December 9, 2001 11:25:21 pm
anNy #91 In other words, to twist an ancient Greek saying a bit, in the write-up you provide we find the gods themselves struggling in vain to figure out fools, that is, us human beings. :-) Interesting write-up.
#91 Posted by rsaxena on December 9, 2001 11:25:21 pm
re: warpster
i was just kinda joking...most of what you say is of course true...
but on a more serious note, i do have a bit of an issue with people obsessing over ``culture``...that`s why i say ``kinda joking`` above...my issue is that people often focus on their cultures at the exclusion of what is good in other cultures...that`s unfortunate, particularly for those of us living in other countries...
furthermore, personal growth and human progress requires belief in only a handful of basic and universal ideas...those have little to do with one culture or another...the sooner we realize and accept that, the less likely we are to have clashes of civilizations...
i was just kinda joking...most of what you say is of course true...
but on a more serious note, i do have a bit of an issue with people obsessing over ``culture``...that`s why i say ``kinda joking`` above...my issue is that people often focus on their cultures at the exclusion of what is good in other cultures...that`s unfortunate, particularly for those of us living in other countries...
furthermore, personal growth and human progress requires belief in only a handful of basic and universal ideas...those have little to do with one culture or another...the sooner we realize and accept that, the less likely we are to have clashes of civilizations...
#90 Posted by DRUMZ on December 9, 2001 11:25:21 pm
Pankaj: Thank you very much for the reply. Im very much into hinduism these days. Your analysis of how brahma is described makes a lot of sense. Brahma = Allah. In Islam we say ``there is no God but Allah`` - meaning that we must know what allah is not, for we cannot know what allah is. Explaining the latter would be impossible for the word ``is`` refers to `existence,` yet we have nothing like brahma in existence, thus nothing to compare it too. U can say that all existence is brahma but a part (human) can rarely see the whole.
The personal God theory is also very agreeable. Just wondering, do you see any strong similarities between krsna and jesus? And I think my question was short sited. Do you know why the elephant, rat, monkey ete were used to describe brahma. What qualities of brahma were these demigods trying to portray?
Hamid: I apologize for not taking your post seriously. However, exactly what were you expecting? You believe that there are strong elements in all religions which border on sheer stupidity. I completely agree. Agreement is usually not conducive to dialogue, correct? Damn I just came back from a mosque today, first time in years. I spoke with one of their ``learned men`` so believe me when I tell you, I agree.
The personal God theory is also very agreeable. Just wondering, do you see any strong similarities between krsna and jesus? And I think my question was short sited. Do you know why the elephant, rat, monkey ete were used to describe brahma. What qualities of brahma were these demigods trying to portray?
Hamid: I apologize for not taking your post seriously. However, exactly what were you expecting? You believe that there are strong elements in all religions which border on sheer stupidity. I completely agree. Agreement is usually not conducive to dialogue, correct? Damn I just came back from a mosque today, first time in years. I spoke with one of their ``learned men`` so believe me when I tell you, I agree.
#89 Posted by warpster on December 9, 2001 9:34:59 pm
rsaxena writes:
---
...this is a bit tangential to your post, but this culture shulture business is overrated...there are a few basic things every sane man of the 21st century truly needs, and culture fulture isn`t one of them
---
My definition of culture is broader than the typical ``traditions, costumes, food, cars etc.`` potpurri. A lot of our cultural inheritance are very subtle and we may not even be aware of them. Principally ``values`` interpersonal ``styles`` etc. For the most part these are not codified in explicit ways (like texts) but absorbed with experience. Cultural characteristics (memes)vary within cultures as well (this partially accounts for the motherinlaw-daughterinlaw friction), even in matters like child rearing.
The other common (mis) conception views culture as being static. far from it.. cultures are always assimilating features from external sources. The humble tomato, an integral part of North Indian Cuisine was viewed with extreme suspicion a few decades ago. Today most Indians will probably estimate that tomatoes have been there forever. Not unlike teenagers who may think the www or computers are as old as cable tv.
My point is simple. Many of us do not critically evaluate our own subcultures traditions, values, beliefs, languages, preferences. Sure some of them may be archaic and ``suckk`` but there is much of value that deserves to be trasmitted to the next generation. The same point also applies to other cultures/peoples we may come into contact with. Absorb and retain compatible memes.
warpster
---
...this is a bit tangential to your post, but this culture shulture business is overrated...there are a few basic things every sane man of the 21st century truly needs, and culture fulture isn`t one of them
---
My definition of culture is broader than the typical ``traditions, costumes, food, cars etc.`` potpurri. A lot of our cultural inheritance are very subtle and we may not even be aware of them. Principally ``values`` interpersonal ``styles`` etc. For the most part these are not codified in explicit ways (like texts) but absorbed with experience. Cultural characteristics (memes)vary within cultures as well (this partially accounts for the motherinlaw-daughterinlaw friction), even in matters like child rearing.
The other common (mis) conception views culture as being static. far from it.. cultures are always assimilating features from external sources. The humble tomato, an integral part of North Indian Cuisine was viewed with extreme suspicion a few decades ago. Today most Indians will probably estimate that tomatoes have been there forever. Not unlike teenagers who may think the www or computers are as old as cable tv.
My point is simple. Many of us do not critically evaluate our own subcultures traditions, values, beliefs, languages, preferences. Sure some of them may be archaic and ``suckk`` but there is much of value that deserves to be trasmitted to the next generation. The same point also applies to other cultures/peoples we may come into contact with. Absorb and retain compatible memes.
warpster
#88 Posted by anNy on December 9, 2001 9:34:59 pm
Prem, thought ud find this interesting :)
__________________________________________________
Important: The following is a piece of fiction meant only for academic purposes and to prove an argument. No offence to any religion or God is intended.
__________________________________________________
Venue: Somewhere in the sky just above New York City…
Setting: The gods of various religions, Allah, Jehovah, Zeus, Zarathustra and he who is a human, cosmic and playing hide and seek are hosting a tea party for Confucius, Lao Tse, St. Augustine, Buddha and Marcus Aurelius.
Wine, sweets and delicacies of the world are placed on a round table. Around the table, are sitting the respectful philosophers and gods…
Buddha: (sighs and looks below sipping tea) This world really is going to the dogs. I mean I do believe that all beings repeatedly experience pain and loss as they pass through innumerable lives, never able to emerge from a conditioned existence created through their own consciousness, but this whole thing is getting rather out of control.
Confucius: Heh. And what makes me sad is that none of this would be happening were people to listen to what I had to say. In the world also my very last words were regrets that none among the rulers then living possessed the sagacity or common sense requisite to a proper appreciation of my basic ethical philosophy and teachings. (Sighs deeply) Would the world be such a boiling cauldron of hate were all men striving to be good citizens, good fathers, good mothers, good children and good friends? No. It`s all about ethics I tell you. Ethics and living life like a perfect gentleman.
Allah: I strongly believe that it is man`s ego and his wish for attaining a higher position in life that is making him commit all these follies. Were he to believe in one supreme being and knowing there were those wiser and all knowing above him, wouldn`t he be humble and live a life of peace and contentment?
St. Augustine: Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.
Buddha: Oh my! I do believe this is rather harsh. That would make murderers out of almost all the tiny folks down there. No, no. I feel and have been telling my people that once one has concentrated awareness so intensely that all material and spiritual phenomena appear empty, without real substance, then existence becomes liberated and suffering ceases. You understand how contentment and spirituality is related with mans desire`s diminishing? Hate he will. Man is made like that.
St. Augustine: My point, dear man was that they should either avoid quarrels altogether or else put an end to them as quickly as possible; otherwise, anger may grow into hatred, making a plank out of a splinter, and turn the soul into a murderer, as I have oft said.
Buddha: Yes. But I do believe you`re a little harsh with mankind. They are after all mortal who know not what they do. Why, they`re hardly aware of what their purpose in life is.
Lao Tse: And pray, do tell what their purpose is? I personally do believe and tell my followers that reserved for those who lives have been extraordinarily pure and benevolent, is immediate entrance into the ``Western Paradise`` where they will enjoy eternal bliss. I would like to know what you think their purpose in life is. You agree with me that their lives should be spent in being as pure and benevolent as is humanly possible?
Buddha: Well see. It is like this. I am thought as so pure and powerful that I do not intervene personally in the affairs of the world. But you ask what purpose man has in life? The true follower of the Buddha rejects the world, becomes a full-time searcher after truth, and practices meditation that concentrates awareness.
Aurelius: Ahem.(launches into tirade) The warp and woof of human character is formed slowly, through the ages, by the steadfast meeting of individual responsibility, by the daily conquest of the lesser self by the greater. Now and then, in the lives of a few, the splendor that is man stands revealed, the ugly and disfigured in human behavior transmuted, and the routine of existence seen to be as intrinsic a part of the cosmic design as is the regular orbiting of sun and star.
Allah: Err yes. But if man has been given a brain, should he not know himself what good to do with his life? Having being made the most exalted of all living beings, he should rightfully understand and follow the purpose of life. Yes?
Buddha: My dear friend. We are often in agreement. Here too I agree. But so often man knows not what his purpose in life is.
Allah: Indeed. That is the tragedy of it all. But then the concept of the heavens and earth would be wasted were all to know the precise purpose of life.
Zarathustra: Cause and effect my fellow gods. Its all about cause and effect. All the motives of human beings that often trouble us so much and give us sleepless nights are based on action and reaction. That`s precisely why I`ve based my teachings on three principles: good reflection, good word, and good deed. The receiver of every good deed in this world will react accordingly with the good behavior.
Zeus: (smiling) Yes but why should humans do things a certain way, anyhow?
Allah: That now, is the ten million dollar question my friend.
Buddha: Well because they need to have a purpose in life to be content and happy always.
Zeus: And why be sent on earth if one has to be only happy and content.
Allah: (Exclaims) Indeed! Why the concept of heaven and hell would then be rendered useless, don`t you think?
Aurelius: (sighs like a tired man) Wouldn`t life be so much more easier if they all believed and adhered to the morale that no matter what the world about one may say or do `my part is to keep myself good; just as a gold piece, or an emerald, or a purple robe insists perpetually.
Zeus: ``My part is to remain an emerald and keep my color true.`` Is that not what you said exactly? Eloquent. Very eloquent.
Allah: (Sad smile on his face) But they don`t do that or what they should most of the times do they?
Buddha: (shaking head) That is one of the sad facts of humans. If only they would resist the sins and pleasures of the flesh.
Allah: Man takes infinite joy in sensuous pleasure. It is hard for him to resist. Only those who have attained the high levels of faith and spirituality manage.
St. Augustine: (excited) That is the key! That is what I say, subdue the flesh, so far as your health permits, by fasting and abstinence from food and drink. .However, when someone is unable to fast, he should still take no food outside mealtimes unless he is ill. You agree?
Zeus: I beg to disagree. Love and spirituality and goodness comes from deep within one self. It is a deep consciousness. Not starving oneself! (stops) But we digress. Why should humans do a thing a certain way, anyhow? Is the fun not in them erring and realizing their mistakes?
Zarathustra: May I? In my philosophy, everybody has the liberty to choose the right way, out of his/her good reflection and since human wisdom is more related to good reflection, thus my followers should precede by each other to the propagation of science and education. In this manner, my religion becomes the forerunner of knowledge and enlightenment.
Allah: We all like to believe that. What`s funny is that the great cosmic ruler remains silent.
Cosmic ruler (who really is a human): You have a sense of humor I see. I like it.
Lord Krishna: The time has come for the wise one to speak. (Smiles mischievously) People are fighting and killing each other over trivialities instead of wondering about the philosophy of life and death. We came into this world and while we are here we should realize who we are, because that is our purpose. And if we can realize who we are, we can have eternal life. The only way we can get that is to strive for knowledge because knowledge destroys ignorance. Then we will have peace of mind, then we will come near to God, then we will come near to our true Self - who we really are. However, in ignorance, we identify with the physical body, our feelings and thoughts. But the moment we identify with the Soul, our whole attitude to life changes: we become more detached, less possessive, we care more for others, because we feel that everything is part and parcel of ourselves.
Buddha: Would you care to elaborate here?
Lord Krishna: But of course. Many people rejoice when someone is born and cry when someone dies; others cry when someone is born and rejoice when someone dies. As I said both of these reactions are natural when we do not understand, but a wise person - who really understands life - will not grieve, for there was never a time when we did not exist, nor will there be a time when we will cease to exist. This is not the first time that we have existed, and when we give up this physical form there will be a time when we will exist again. As this physical form, the Indweller, the Soul, experiences childhood, youth and old age in the body, It passes on to another body. The Supreme One, the Soul, is not affected by what happens to the physical form. The body has to undergo the process that leads to death. Everyone and everything has to experience the Law of Decay. The universe with its planets is following the same law. It is a natural law that governs the whole universe, a law that we cannot avoid. Since we cannot avoid it, the wise person does not feel disturbed by it.
Allah: But what is there to be good if one is coming back again irrespective of the kind of life one leads? You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Krishna: (puzzled) Let me get back to you.
Cosmic ruler: Enough of the satire now. (Smiling) Have we reached an agreement then? Is there a purpose to life? Does man understand what the purpose is? And why does he not follow it? And why, must he even have to follow it, eh?
Allah: Agree? Not in this life time.
Buddha: (Winks) Yesyes. Let us leave then. Man is a funny thing. Hard to understand no?
Zeus: True dat!
References:
· Peter R. Blood, Sri Lanka: Chapter 2C. Religion. , Countries of the World, 01-01-1991.
· Dawson, Miles, Conduct Of Life (Ethics Of Confucius), The: Introduction. , History of the World, 01-01-1992.
· The Director Foreign Area Studies, Taiwan: Chapter 10A. Religion. , Countries of the World, 01-01-199
· From Sunrise magazine, February 1972; copyright © 1972 Theosophical University Press
__________________________________________________
Important: The following is a piece of fiction meant only for academic purposes and to prove an argument. No offence to any religion or God is intended.
__________________________________________________
Venue: Somewhere in the sky just above New York City…
Setting: The gods of various religions, Allah, Jehovah, Zeus, Zarathustra and he who is a human, cosmic and playing hide and seek are hosting a tea party for Confucius, Lao Tse, St. Augustine, Buddha and Marcus Aurelius.
Wine, sweets and delicacies of the world are placed on a round table. Around the table, are sitting the respectful philosophers and gods…
Buddha: (sighs and looks below sipping tea) This world really is going to the dogs. I mean I do believe that all beings repeatedly experience pain and loss as they pass through innumerable lives, never able to emerge from a conditioned existence created through their own consciousness, but this whole thing is getting rather out of control.
Confucius: Heh. And what makes me sad is that none of this would be happening were people to listen to what I had to say. In the world also my very last words were regrets that none among the rulers then living possessed the sagacity or common sense requisite to a proper appreciation of my basic ethical philosophy and teachings. (Sighs deeply) Would the world be such a boiling cauldron of hate were all men striving to be good citizens, good fathers, good mothers, good children and good friends? No. It`s all about ethics I tell you. Ethics and living life like a perfect gentleman.
Allah: I strongly believe that it is man`s ego and his wish for attaining a higher position in life that is making him commit all these follies. Were he to believe in one supreme being and knowing there were those wiser and all knowing above him, wouldn`t he be humble and live a life of peace and contentment?
St. Augustine: Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.
Buddha: Oh my! I do believe this is rather harsh. That would make murderers out of almost all the tiny folks down there. No, no. I feel and have been telling my people that once one has concentrated awareness so intensely that all material and spiritual phenomena appear empty, without real substance, then existence becomes liberated and suffering ceases. You understand how contentment and spirituality is related with mans desire`s diminishing? Hate he will. Man is made like that.
St. Augustine: My point, dear man was that they should either avoid quarrels altogether or else put an end to them as quickly as possible; otherwise, anger may grow into hatred, making a plank out of a splinter, and turn the soul into a murderer, as I have oft said.
Buddha: Yes. But I do believe you`re a little harsh with mankind. They are after all mortal who know not what they do. Why, they`re hardly aware of what their purpose in life is.
Lao Tse: And pray, do tell what their purpose is? I personally do believe and tell my followers that reserved for those who lives have been extraordinarily pure and benevolent, is immediate entrance into the ``Western Paradise`` where they will enjoy eternal bliss. I would like to know what you think their purpose in life is. You agree with me that their lives should be spent in being as pure and benevolent as is humanly possible?
Buddha: Well see. It is like this. I am thought as so pure and powerful that I do not intervene personally in the affairs of the world. But you ask what purpose man has in life? The true follower of the Buddha rejects the world, becomes a full-time searcher after truth, and practices meditation that concentrates awareness.
Aurelius: Ahem.(launches into tirade) The warp and woof of human character is formed slowly, through the ages, by the steadfast meeting of individual responsibility, by the daily conquest of the lesser self by the greater. Now and then, in the lives of a few, the splendor that is man stands revealed, the ugly and disfigured in human behavior transmuted, and the routine of existence seen to be as intrinsic a part of the cosmic design as is the regular orbiting of sun and star.
Allah: Err yes. But if man has been given a brain, should he not know himself what good to do with his life? Having being made the most exalted of all living beings, he should rightfully understand and follow the purpose of life. Yes?
Buddha: My dear friend. We are often in agreement. Here too I agree. But so often man knows not what his purpose in life is.
Allah: Indeed. That is the tragedy of it all. But then the concept of the heavens and earth would be wasted were all to know the precise purpose of life.
Zarathustra: Cause and effect my fellow gods. Its all about cause and effect. All the motives of human beings that often trouble us so much and give us sleepless nights are based on action and reaction. That`s precisely why I`ve based my teachings on three principles: good reflection, good word, and good deed. The receiver of every good deed in this world will react accordingly with the good behavior.
Zeus: (smiling) Yes but why should humans do things a certain way, anyhow?
Allah: That now, is the ten million dollar question my friend.
Buddha: Well because they need to have a purpose in life to be content and happy always.
Zeus: And why be sent on earth if one has to be only happy and content.
Allah: (Exclaims) Indeed! Why the concept of heaven and hell would then be rendered useless, don`t you think?
Aurelius: (sighs like a tired man) Wouldn`t life be so much more easier if they all believed and adhered to the morale that no matter what the world about one may say or do `my part is to keep myself good; just as a gold piece, or an emerald, or a purple robe insists perpetually.
Zeus: ``My part is to remain an emerald and keep my color true.`` Is that not what you said exactly? Eloquent. Very eloquent.
Allah: (Sad smile on his face) But they don`t do that or what they should most of the times do they?
Buddha: (shaking head) That is one of the sad facts of humans. If only they would resist the sins and pleasures of the flesh.
Allah: Man takes infinite joy in sensuous pleasure. It is hard for him to resist. Only those who have attained the high levels of faith and spirituality manage.
St. Augustine: (excited) That is the key! That is what I say, subdue the flesh, so far as your health permits, by fasting and abstinence from food and drink. .However, when someone is unable to fast, he should still take no food outside mealtimes unless he is ill. You agree?
Zeus: I beg to disagree. Love and spirituality and goodness comes from deep within one self. It is a deep consciousness. Not starving oneself! (stops) But we digress. Why should humans do a thing a certain way, anyhow? Is the fun not in them erring and realizing their mistakes?
Zarathustra: May I? In my philosophy, everybody has the liberty to choose the right way, out of his/her good reflection and since human wisdom is more related to good reflection, thus my followers should precede by each other to the propagation of science and education. In this manner, my religion becomes the forerunner of knowledge and enlightenment.
Allah: We all like to believe that. What`s funny is that the great cosmic ruler remains silent.
Cosmic ruler (who really is a human): You have a sense of humor I see. I like it.
Lord Krishna: The time has come for the wise one to speak. (Smiles mischievously) People are fighting and killing each other over trivialities instead of wondering about the philosophy of life and death. We came into this world and while we are here we should realize who we are, because that is our purpose. And if we can realize who we are, we can have eternal life. The only way we can get that is to strive for knowledge because knowledge destroys ignorance. Then we will have peace of mind, then we will come near to God, then we will come near to our true Self - who we really are. However, in ignorance, we identify with the physical body, our feelings and thoughts. But the moment we identify with the Soul, our whole attitude to life changes: we become more detached, less possessive, we care more for others, because we feel that everything is part and parcel of ourselves.
Buddha: Would you care to elaborate here?
Lord Krishna: But of course. Many people rejoice when someone is born and cry when someone dies; others cry when someone is born and rejoice when someone dies. As I said both of these reactions are natural when we do not understand, but a wise person - who really understands life - will not grieve, for there was never a time when we did not exist, nor will there be a time when we will cease to exist. This is not the first time that we have existed, and when we give up this physical form there will be a time when we will exist again. As this physical form, the Indweller, the Soul, experiences childhood, youth and old age in the body, It passes on to another body. The Supreme One, the Soul, is not affected by what happens to the physical form. The body has to undergo the process that leads to death. Everyone and everything has to experience the Law of Decay. The universe with its planets is following the same law. It is a natural law that governs the whole universe, a law that we cannot avoid. Since we cannot avoid it, the wise person does not feel disturbed by it.
Allah: But what is there to be good if one is coming back again irrespective of the kind of life one leads? You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Krishna: (puzzled) Let me get back to you.
Cosmic ruler: Enough of the satire now. (Smiling) Have we reached an agreement then? Is there a purpose to life? Does man understand what the purpose is? And why does he not follow it? And why, must he even have to follow it, eh?
Allah: Agree? Not in this life time.
Buddha: (Winks) Yesyes. Let us leave then. Man is a funny thing. Hard to understand no?
Zeus: True dat!
References:
· Peter R. Blood, Sri Lanka: Chapter 2C. Religion. , Countries of the World, 01-01-1991.
· Dawson, Miles, Conduct Of Life (Ethics Of Confucius), The: Introduction. , History of the World, 01-01-1992.
· The Director Foreign Area Studies, Taiwan: Chapter 10A. Religion. , Countries of the World, 01-01-199
· From Sunrise magazine, February 1972; copyright © 1972 Theosophical University Press
#87 Posted by hamidm on December 9, 2001 9:34:59 pm
sadna #80
.... thanks for the educational tip ... but seriously, i am quite envious of how hindus in general don`t get their shorts all knotted up over these silly movies .... can you imagine the fuss we muslims would create over something like tomb raider or indiana jones - there would be blood flowing in the streets of bombay and karachi .....heck, we got all worked up about some silly movie which showed muhammad`s shadow ..... i wish hollywood would trash islam as much as they have trashed hinduism and christianity ...... i would pay a hundred dollars to see ``prophet muhammad- super star`` on broadway - think of the possibilities with nathan lane as abu bakr and matthew broderick as young ali!.........the only two religions that get this preferential treatment are judaism and islam - i wonder why ? ..... i hate to admit this but hindus and christians seem to be more secure about their religion than the rabid muslims and jews ....... it almost makes me think we are trying to hide something ..........
.... thanks for the educational tip ... but seriously, i am quite envious of how hindus in general don`t get their shorts all knotted up over these silly movies .... can you imagine the fuss we muslims would create over something like tomb raider or indiana jones - there would be blood flowing in the streets of bombay and karachi .....heck, we got all worked up about some silly movie which showed muhammad`s shadow ..... i wish hollywood would trash islam as much as they have trashed hinduism and christianity ...... i would pay a hundred dollars to see ``prophet muhammad- super star`` on broadway - think of the possibilities with nathan lane as abu bakr and matthew broderick as young ali!.........the only two religions that get this preferential treatment are judaism and islam - i wonder why ? ..... i hate to admit this but hindus and christians seem to be more secure about their religion than the rabid muslims and jews ....... it almost makes me think we are trying to hide something ..........
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