The Forgotten Children of God

soyee # 123

nope.:).i just smiled through very gritted teeth and said NO thank you i do NOT want some of that alcohol infested chocolate cake

Urstruly #161
``Purusha Sukta of the Rig Veda says that the four fold division of society into Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (cultivators) and Shudras (menial servants) has been created by primeval man `Purusha`. From Purusha`s brain have emerged the Brahmins, from his forearms have emerged the kshatriyas from his abdomen have emerged the Vaishyas and from his feet have emerged the Shudras``

btw, its verse 12 of 16 verses and it goes
``from the mouth [of Purusha] came brahmins, from his arms were kshatriyas made, from his thighs came the vaisyas, his feet gave birth to Shudras.

The next verses say
``The moon was born from his mind, from his eye the Sun was formed. Indra and Agni came from his mouth, and from his vital breath the Wind was born.
The space unfolds from his navel, the sky well formed from his head, his feet, the earth, from his ears the Quarters of the sky. Thus they thought up all the worlds``

Urstruly #161

`` Now before I start my rebuttal I must warn all Hindus not to underestimate me and play games with me as Sadhna did, I know more about Hinduism than an average Hindu.``

I don`t know how it is where you come from, but where I come from, you actually have to show your knowledge not simply make assertions about it.

You donot also seem to apply your mind much.

``Let us assume that it is true then don?t you see the point [2] i.e. the dogma of Reincarnation implodes and collapses along with all the social structure of the Hindu Civilization.``

Urstruly, now why does 4:13 implode reincarnation? can you explain?

``Now let us further this argument by assuming that [2] is correct then either it means that although Lord Krishna was not specific about the caste by virtue of birth but his intended message was as such OR what Lord Krishna is saying is untrue. So in corollary [1] and two are mutually exclusive. ``

Again why?

``Whereas Manu suggests a complete isolation and segregation of the lowest caste by force-by pouring molten lead into the ears of Shudras who happen to overheard the Ashloks (holy verses) chanted by Brahmins. ``

Why is Manu considered the only Hindu authority by you(and most opponents of Hinduism)? Is it because you guys cannot quote any one else from the huge collection of Hindu scripture, Vedas, Upanishads(do you know what they are?). Where does it say we need to listen to Manu and Manusmriti?

``Gandhi on the other hand is more conniving and articulate and maintains the status quo of segregation by ``inventing`` the concept of ``Harijan````

If he called them their traditional names, you would have said he is oppressing them. I mean if I say African American I`m in trouble if I say nigger I am in trouble. btw are you for affirmative action or not?

Why are `genocidal` invaders on your brain, how are they relevant here? Been spending too much time with the newspapers have you?

``From Purusha`s brain have emerged the Brahmins, from his forearms have emerged the kshatriyas from his abdomen have emerged the Vaishyas and from his feet have emerged the Shudras``

Urstruly, this may be an alien concept to you, but is it so difficult to understand the concept of having respect for every part of one`s body or Purusha`s body? If in your culture you choose to put a negative connotation on some part of the body and view Hindu mythology and philosophy from that viewpoint, what can I do?

btw, here are more from the Gita. Your ignoring every quote from the Gita I put up is begining to look rather funny and desperate.

9:29
I am equally disposed to all living entities; there is neither friend nor foe to Me; but those who with loving sentiments render devotional service unto me, such persons are in Me and I am in them.

9:32
O Arjuna, even those who may be born from the wombs of degraded women, vaisyas and shudras, if they take full shelter of Me, they also reach the supreme goal.


12:3,4
But those who worship the indescribable, all-pervading inconveivable, immutable, constant, eternal, impersonal absolute devoid of perceptible form and attributes; completely controlling all the senses with spiritual intelligence, equally disposed to everything and dedicated to the welfare of all living entities; they certainly also achieve Me``.


``Don?t you realize that whenever any Radha ticks off the box that identifies herself as a Dalit in a job or educational institution`s application form she sells her soul for 22% of her share to the Devil?``

This is the problem with lifting stuff from anti-Hindu websites, they donot care to be objective and lead to your exposing your ignorance.

Noone forces her to tick off a box identifying herself as a Dalit or anythign else. If she doesnot want to avail the quota, absolutely nothing stops her from getting a seat/job under the general quota, noone will know or ask.

If she wants to avail the Dalit quota, she has to submit a certificate saying she is eligible as a Dalit. The Indian government doesnot want to know who you are and what is your religion or caste unless you want to tell it.

You are perhaps confusing optional quotas with the Pakistani system of government needing to know who is Muslim and nonMuslim( I am guessing, maybe they need this for separate electorates and things and to hear your declaration that you disown Ahmedis as Muslims). Glad you make it clear to Radha, donot want her to wander into the wrong mosque.

Urstruly, couldn`t you locate the original Soli Sorabjee statement? Some guy referring to a phrase and ranting about something else doesnot do it. The same guy refers to the same statement elsewhere like this
http://wcar.alrc.net/mainfile.php/For+the+affirmative/10/

`` India`s Attorney General, Soli Sorabjee, in a Times of India article entitled Racism, Name Changing & Toilets, has revealed the reason, which may have turned Mahatma Ghandi in his grave. Says the Attorney General ``None of this capitalist obscene toilet opulence for socialist India. We will rest content with clean functioning toilets. Is this an Utopian fancy?````

You have to read an article and UNDERSTAND it before posting it, or you risk disproving your point yourself by accident.

And if you want to win converts you have to work harder. Start with google.

btw, what does Kashmir have to do with any of this? Do you blame having to go to the bathroom also on the `murder` of Kashmiris? I sympathise with your predicament.

Zafar #159 Much obliged. Regards.

re: Drumz #160

``Why not just say that Islam is not perfect?``

You cannot becoz Islam is allegedly the final and authoritative word of God. That is its USP (unique selling proposition). To say that Islam is not perfect is therefore either to say that God didn`t get it right, whereas we humans somehow did (impossible!). Or alternatively to say that the Prophet (Pbuh) was not speaking the complete truth when he said that he was passing on only the word of God. And if he was wrong about somethings, then why not others? Any of the above constitutes blasphemy. Thus Islam must be perfect, or it is false. There is no option of picking and choosing.

-narain

A quick note on caste and Hinduism,

There is no doubt the caste system has been, and continues to be, the bane of Hinduism. I won`t get into that. I have discussed that many times before.

But a Hindu is NOT required to blindly accept any crap written in any old books. He or she is free to choose that which will guide him or her in meeting the needs of modern human living, working toward the fulfilment of certain fundamental principles, or Dharma (I briefly touched upon those once before- like minimizing pain to others, growing and sustaining prakriti etc.)

To guide ME in matters of caste, I keep before me this little anecdote in the life of Shankar - the greatest advaita philosopher India has produced. For many Hindus, he is the ultimate in `non-divine` religious authority.

One day, in the city of Kashi, Shankara and his disciples were returning from their daily bath in the river Ganges. On the way, they met a Chaandala (outcast) approaching them from the opposite direction.

Since the path was narrow, Shankara called out for the Chaandala to move aside so they might pass without touching him.

The Chaandala replied, “What shall I move? Shall I move my body which is made of the same earthly elements we all share? Or, should I move my soul which is part of the same all-pervading consciousness to which your soul belongs?”

It is said that at that moment, Shankara had the vision of the Truth. He suddenly grasped the reality of One in all and all in One. He fell at the Shudra`s feet, telling his disciples, “He is indeed my guru, regardless of his birth.”

...``chandalostu dvijostu gururityesha manisha

mama``....

What was true for Shankara is true for me. Not because I will blindly follow him in every instance. I do not lead Shankara`s life nor do I want to. But because his insight makes sense to me, it enables me to live with my fellow human beings in peace and honor.

Anything that supports untouchability, that promotes discrimination, that tells me that I can not touch this or that person, that tells me that I can not marry this woman or that, or that tells some other woman that they can not marry me, is a bunch of sh1t. The sooner we get rid of that stinky sh1t, the sooner we will move beyond being mere animals.

Best regards and good night.

Harpreet # 154

Truly, that is one of the most disheartening things - even AFTER people are educated, even after they read a thousand books, they find it so damn hard to throw away the deadwood of the past. They become mentally enslaved to that deadwood, and they become physically enslaved to it.

Most people can not think differently than their parents and their grandparents did. There are people even today who believe that it is their RELIGIOUS duty to maintain distinctions, to discriminate.

Those who can think are scared out of their wits, lest anyone find out they are different. Lest society punish them for their questioning of dogma. So even when they see the absurdity and fragility of the ropes tied around them, they are too frightened to break out. Too scared even when all the support infrastructure is available to facilitate their move.

Change is slow. For a longish time, most of us will have to walk a very very lonely road.

Prem

“She said, ``beta, it doesn`t matter how we worship God. God is big enough to understand and accept the devotion of all”

…wise woman, your ma…

Urstruly (#145):

Now that you can no longer explain your absurd Islam without sounding like a blithering, low IQ, idiot, you are distancing yourself from the discussion. Sure … I understand how tormented you must be after being disgraced by a “kaffir Ahmadi”, who can explain Islam better than you can.

In a very collected manner you exclaimed to have used the “prophethood” comment to get me to respond. Now that I have responded and shown that your Islam is a loosely knit episode of stupid, sub-intelligent, fairy tales, you are at a loss …

So far you have had nothing intelligent to say. Give it up man … you are becoming desperate, while trying to maintain a relaxed front. Clearly your Islam, with these fairy tales, is on its way to becoming “Hinduism” of tomorrow … and you are not able to show otherwise …

Asad

THE TOILET ARRANGEMENT

Although this post is addressed to Sadhna my actual audience is still Radha and I will still insist on my case that the only way out of the misery that she and her nation suffers is by only converting to a new dogma-a paradigm shift. My case is still based on the contention that the dogma cannot be ``improved``, ``ignored``, and its effect cannot be altered by any means including legislation. And especially when those Hindu who still insist that it can be done, present a case which is nothing but a plethora of contradictions. Lets see. Here Sadna`s case is based on three contentions:

[1] ``Krishna in the Gita didnot talk of divisions BY BIRTH, so he doesnot caste which is division by birth.``

[2] Her second contention is about Reincarnation, she says`` About birth, he (Lord Krishna) and others do talk elsewhere of the sum total of inclinations(samskaras) and karma influencing the circumstances of your next birth,`` but then she continues ``how can A tell B, ``I am going to persecute you and oppress you(finally every straitjacket is oppression) because of your past sins. If you happen to have children born to you during this misery I impose on you, well they deserve it too, thats because they did bad things in their past life too``

[3] Her third contention is about Indian Constiution. She says ``Dalits CANNOT be told as you imply, to shut up and bear it due to reincarnation and past sins, either under the auspices of Hinduism or under the auspices of the Indian Constitution.``

Now before I start my rebuttal I must warn all Hindus not to underestimate me and play games with me as Sadhna did, I know more about Hinduism than an average Hindu.

Now lets discuss point [1] first. It is true that the words of Lord Krishna in the verse 4-13 do not specify that caste is by virtue of birth. Let us assume that it is true then don’t you see the point [2] i.e. the dogma of Reincarnation implodes and collapses along with all the social structure of the Hindu Civilization. Now let us further this argument by assuming that [2] is correct then either it means that although Lord Krishna was not specific about the caste by virtue of birth but his intended message was as such OR what Lord Krishna is saying is untrue. So in corollary [1] and two are mutually exclusive.

OR

It also means that [1] and [2] actually supplement each other. And that is exactly the message Hindu scholars have understood and conveyed throughout the centuries-from Manu to Gandhi. Whereas Manu suggests a complete isolation and segregation of the lowest caste by force-by pouring molten lead into the ears of Shudras who happen to overheard the Ashloks (holy verses) chanted by Brahmins. Gandhi on the other hand is more conniving and articulate and maintains the status quo of segregation by ``inventing`` the concept of ``Harijan``. The interpretation of segregation by virtue of birth is not new-it wasn`t invented to counter the influence of ``invading genocidal`` Muslims or English rulers who used it is a tool of divide-and-rule, it is as old as Buddha and even long before him when famous Chinese traveler Havensang and Fahyan mention casteism in their travelogues. In the later years other travelers like Albairuni, Ibn-e-Batuta, and Marco polo also mention the existence of castes and untouchability.

And as far as the contention in [2] and [3] i.e. `` how can A (upper class) tell B (lower class)`` is concerned, I regret to say that it is nothing but Hindu dogma that dictates the roles of upper class viz a viz lower class. This dogma is dictated by Hindu holy scriptures where Purusha Sukta of the Rig Veda says that the four fold division of society into Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (cultivators) and Shudras (menial servants) has been created by primeval man `Purusha`. From Purusha`s brain have emerged the Brahmins, from his forearms have emerged the kshatriyas from his abdomen have emerged the Vaishyas and from his feet have emerged the Shudras. And according to the Hindu Shastras (religious texts) have a different explanation to offer as per the Holy scriptures i.e. a Brahmin is a person who has mastered the essence of Brahma (Universe). ` Brahma Janayate Iti Brahamana`. So in layman terms it is the ``brain`` (brahmin) of this body (that is Hindu social structure) who has the authority to tell lower class (limbs of the body) what to do. Anthropologically speaking this is the most perfect self perpetuating and self-preserving system ever seen in the universe-it keeps Kashtrias and Veshas in line with whatever Brahmin indoctrinates because of the fear that they might end up being Shudra; and shudras are kept in line by promises of a life of the one of the three classes in next incarnation.
Let us see [3] i.e. Indian Constitution. Nothing irks me more than the mention of the phrase ``Indian Constitution``. First of all the Indian constitution is secular which means whatever you do religiously in your private personal life is your business-government has no business interfering with religion and vice versa- this brings back my original questions in my previous post as to how you legislate the morality of people when you get the morality out of the constitution. This renders a secular constitution as a Devil`s Contract. Don’t you realize that whenever any Radha ticks off the box that identifies herself as a Dalit in a job or educational institution`s application form she sells her soul for 22% of her share to the Devil? Her segregated status as a Dalit gets protection i.e. she is forced or cajoled to remain in that class? And what is Indian Constitution? It gives the right of murder to the ``majority`` to kill 70,000 Kashmiris without impunity, without remorse? It looks like a liscence to kill to me. And how much Brahmin Class give a damn to Constitution as far as the rights of Dalits is concerned is evident from India’s Attorney General Soli J. Sorabjee`s views about whole concept of Casteism in India, who wrote about his interest in keeping his toilet the way he wants.

Read and weep

http://wcar.alrc.net/mainfile.php/For+the+affirmative/13/


My Dear Sister Radha!

So now you see that the dogma never changes. It has to be replaced by a new dogma if the older one does not serve the purpose, pushes you into a tight corner and condemns you to eternal damnation. Neither ``reform`` in Hinduism nor Indian secular constitution helps you. And I regret to say that by selling your soul for the 22% quota you are being an accomplice to the crime that is being committed against your nation under the name of religious dogma and constitutional protection. And if you are following this thread you must have figured out the point I was trying to prove to you as mentioned in # 132. Let me explain: My friend Sattar belongs to the Ahmadia religion which came into being by changing the basic Islamic dogma that Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) is the last messenger of God. So they changed the dogma and they get out of the fold of Islam and now they call their religion Ahmadia. This gave them a new paradigm of thinking which he and his people think is better than what they already had. I Whom am I to differ with them. Similarly, unless you replace your dogma you and your nation will never be out of the predicament you are in since the time unknown.

It is so ironic that the pathway that always leads you to a new dogma is paved by reason. Sometime the reason is oppression, sometimes economic, sometime self preservation, and sometime it is just to free your soul from the burden of the centuries. Islam is the only religion in the whole wide world that gives the freedom to your soul-once you bow your head in front of one God, Allah, you don’t need to bow your head in front of no body no body. I will urge you to observe the Muslim social structure in England and also in India and if possible in any Islamic country of your choice and experience the paradigm shift. Please encourage the broken, huddled, tired, oppressed, and forsaken people of your nation to come see the light. Every single day that you spend willingly under oppression is a crime against you in which nobody else but you are the accomplice.

Umer: Sure. Lets look at womens rights. Hadis say u can have four wives, the quran says men are superior and u can beat women etc...

Any person with common sense knows that such distinctions of superiority are spiritually WRONG. So what do apologists do? ``It says u can beat them with a feather!`` Or they cloud the issue by describing all the rights Islam brought to women (which is true... But its also a magicians tactic - Focus on the left hand as i pull something outta my right pocket...)

Why not just say that Islam is not perfect, societies change, we DONT need to accept Arabic standards for everything etc etc... Such are not the words of cowards.

What about minority rights (Apologists will defend he fact that minorities must pay jizya, WHY?). Religious intolerance-Muhammed broke 360 Idols. Slavery. Fear mongering with threats of hell fire etc...

The so called paradigm shift should distance itself from making Islam more ``moderate.`` That involves a great deal of cognitive dissonance as Muslims will convince themselvs that sexism etc were divinely prescribed - but that they dont have to be followed today.

WHY? Why not just say that sexism is wrong. Islam is wrong in that respect. What so hard about that? Its cuz Muslims have made Islam equal with Allah (given it absolute attributes). Islam is only a car that takes u to Allah`s crib.

...trees for the forest, streams for the ocean...

Reply Tahmed # 156

``afar #149 ``kombdi``??? Is ka kya matlab hai, bhai sahib? In what language, what region is it used?``

Kombdi is Marathi for chicken. Used in similar manner to goose in English, as in ``you silly goose``.

Salaams

Zafar

Folks may also want to read :

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_hobso_caste_frameset.htm

Folks may want to read Madhu Kishwar at :

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_kishw_mythic_frameset.htm

afar #149 ``kombdi``??? Is ka kya matlab hai, bhai sahib? In what language, what region is it used?

Thank you for the education.

Thanks to pankaj, Jay, anAryan, prem, others... Ill reply soon...

Ladies and gentlemen: a MUSLIM actually has the AUDACITY to tell Sadna THIS:

``Then why not start the good housekeeping from your home?``

That she has the good will to not say the following DOESNT mean ....

1. That American DOGS don`t have more rights then Muslim women.

2. That Islam allows SLAVES. The vast majority of the slaves on earth today are owned by SO CALLED Muslims in Sudan.

These sanctions are prescribed in the Holy QURAN as DIVINELY revealed by the archangel Jibrael to Muhammed, the prophet of Islam.

WHO`S HOME?!?!?!