The Forgotten Children of God

I really feel for these people.
In this century yet some still wallow in such
ignorance.
India has a long way to go.

Ras

Another sham democracy, another chink in the human armour of morality, another pixel in the bigger picture of corruption…

I do wish that Ghandi Ji was alive for a few more years…

I also wish that Jesus (PBUH) would make a come back pretty soon…

Dear Zalan Alam,

A general question, how would one go about wiping this problem out?

Is it just a matter of time? After all, surely, the laws preventing discrimination against the Dalits have been implemented. As new generations are born, the problem will be resolved.

Os is it something far worse, something in the psyche of the folks which must be purged.

Take care

Umer Murtaza

Please tell this to any of your Hindu friends. First of all they will never accept it. Even if they accept it, they will be quick to point out that it is changing now. I had an opportunity of conducting a tour of Indian engineers in Europe. I found out that one engineer always had a room to himself while all others shared rooms to save money. Later on I found out that he was a Harijan or Dalit and no one wanted to share room with him.

One of the main factor in India`s partition has been untouchablity of all Muslims. The reason has been that most of Muslims were converts from Dalits or untouchables. This discrimination has even continued in Pakistan.

A tourist in India can not figure anything out. This is a deep religious feeling that is hard to change. I have to admit that ancient Munis and Rishis were very smart. They created a system that has continued for thousands of years keeping their off-springs on top.

Just look in matrimonial ads. in any Indian newspapers in India or even in USA. They mention caste as a normal thing.

I wish the Dalit lady good luck in her efforts in education of western people.

Have you tried submitting this article to dalitstan.org? They will absolutely love it.

I lived in India for 21 years and never saw anyone being asked to take off his or her footwear, even in desperately poor villages in eastern UP and northern Bihar. Inspite of being born a brahmin, I have never been asked to decide what is right or wrong in matters of religion and society. Have I been shortchanged?

Now that you have enlightened us on one of the more confusing mysteries of India, can you also expound on some of the less confusing ones? How about telling us about the causes of poverty in India, something you apparently set out to do in this piece.

By the way, it`s quite amusing to see a journalist in England writing sentences like - ``When I caught up with Radha Bathran, at Manchester University while she on tour, organised by Amnesty international, of UK Universities , this fiery 23 year old student of Journalism and Mass Communication from Bharatiyar University, she told listeners of the bitter disappointments and discrimination her 240 million strong community endures every day in India.``

Regards

To use a Cliche,

And miles to go and Promises to keep before we sleep....

And miles to go and Promises to keep before we sleep....

jntuece99

``The caste system, which has existed already for more than 3000 years, has been developed by the Brahmins (priests) in order to maintain their superiority.``

DIVIDE AND CONQUER...

Such a simple concept, yet so many cannot see it.

Almost all posts on chowk adhere to some form of this timeless system.

This is why S. Asia is in the state its in.

I agree with author that caste system is a curse for Indian society. Fortunately it is slowly but surely disappearing. My next door neighbour, we called him uncle, was a ``DOM``, what is perhaps called ``chammar``. He used to tell us that he had to travel on foot in his village in his childhood even though they had local transport. He lived his childhood in great poverty.

Fortunately, he rose to become a director of Indian Agriculture Research Institute. His son and daughter, slightly younger to me, became engineers from IIT.

I do not want to prove that caste system has completely disappeared, but people dont keep track of each others caste most of the time (big exception being election time or marriage, where people do all sorts of calculations).

And a clarification,

Author is certainly not knowledgable about hindu caste system. Scheduled caste are part of ``shudra`` group. All farmers/peasants need not be shudras. Many of them are Kshatriyas. Groups that are outside hindu caste systems, e.g. invaders from west, or converted people, are categorised as ``malechah``.

In that Brahma legend, their are other sub groups, e.g. Kayastha who trace their origins to other parts of Brahma`s body. you may find one such example in Harivansh Rai Bachhan`s (Amitab`s father) autobiography.

And going a bit defensive, perhaps I can add that all societies have their own versions of caste system. e.g. Muslims have their own syeds, quaraishi etc having a special place in hierarchy due to their relationship to prophet.

But this is certainly no reason to allow caste system to continue. We Indians do hope to remove this disease from Indian society.

this is really sad. i`m glad a woman is speaking out against the caste system in the international community.

Chowk editors, thank you for posting an article on this subject.

General question: I thought that there was a difference between Dalits and the Scheduled Castes – can anybody clarify? What about scheduled tribes? Also - I thought that Dalit literally meant ``broken`` - is this true?

There are several websites with more information on this for those who are interested. One of them, www.dalit.org, gives this background:

“One of the more confusing mysteries of India is her caste system. The caste system, which has existed already for more than 3000 years, has been developed by the Brahmins (priests) in order to maintain their superiority. Eventually, the caste system became formalised into 4 distinct classes (Varnas).

``At the top are the Brahmins, the priests and arbiters of what is right and wrong in matters of religion and society. Next come the Kshatriyas, who are soldiers and administrators. The Vaisyas are the artisan and commercial class, and finally, the Sudras are the farmers and the peasant class. These four castes are said to have come from Brahma`s mouth (Brahmin), arms (Kshatriyas), thighs (Vaisyas) and feet (Sudras).

``Beneath the four main castes is a fifth group, the Scheduled Caste. They literally have no caste. They are the untouchables, the Dalits, which means oppressed, downtrodden and exploited social group.”

The caste System is alive in India. However it would be a stretch to claim that it affects the entire nation. It is alive and active in the villages but not in the cities. Instances of oppression of the dalits happen in villages regularly in India.

In the cities, actually the scheduled classes have more benefits in terms of reservations and grants from the government. I am a graduate from the same school that Radha goes to today. And I am neither an Upper Caste hindu nor even a believer. I believe in social justice and equality.

I can say without batting an eyelid that I had Scheduled Caste members in my own class who were treated as equals by the student populace, regardless of the fact that these students were not selected for the same class by merit but by the virtue of they being scheduled caste members. None of the others harboured any resentment towards them. I attribute this to the urbanisation.

Just wanted to clear this ahead of the debate.

The Dalit Oppression must end. But my guess is the villages are still clinging on to it and so do some upper caste members from cities. However, in the cities it is a crime to practice such segregation and oppression. And many Dalits have made use of education and Urbanisation to promote themselves. Even the president of India is a Dalit.

Wonder what Radha is trying to achieve by debating this in Britain ?

Regards

Rishi

And i am certain Radha`s parents were not forced to carry bags and sell fruits. They probably had to do that for lack of education. I am certain that with education Radha can provide a better life for her family.

The irony of dalits is that, many non dalits dont mind changing their castes atleast on paper to avail themselves of the benefits of being a dalit (reservations for education, job, and grants from government)

The fact is that while a non dalit has to score very high in the exams to become a doctor or an engineer (the most sought after education streams in India) a dalit can get the same education with just a pass in the exams.

Again, i am not a dalit. But just wanted to set the record straight

-- Rishi

Thank you Zalan for an informative, educational article. Until I read your piece, I had thought of the caste system as something of the past, now over. Apparently, the curse lives on.

Zalan, would you like to discuss some of the reasons for this persistent cruelty, why it continues to this day, in this ``progressive`` age? Is it a widespread, prevalent attitude or only concentrated in the rural areas, closed communities scattered throughout the country? Such violence is common to these insular settlements; they have their own tribal laws and mechanisms of justice. We saw some horrifying examples in Shyam Benegal`s films, Nishant and Manthan, and Ketan Mehta`s Mirch Masala.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Zafar Al-Talib;

I was under the impression you had to be a super-scorer on those entrance exams, dalit or not. Friends tell me children are driven to suicide from the pressure of achieving those astronomical grade requirements. In such severe conditions, do Dalits really have it much worse than the rest? :)

Regards,

Aamir

Sorry Zafar, I meant that question for Rishi. A thousand apologies. :)

Aamir

Zafar,

The system of castes is so complex that some confusion about the meaning/status of various castes and subcastes is natural.

None of these terms - harijan, dalit, scheduled castes, scheduled tribes - are traditional terms. Traditionally, all members of the lower castes fell within the broad category of Shudras, with their own subdivisions. The rise and widespread usage of these new terms is reflective of the cultural dynamic that began most prominently after India gained independence and fell under the sway of liberal socialists like Nehru and socio-religious reformers like Gandhi.

Since the term ``Shudra`` had acquired extremely demeaning connotations, Gandhi sought to replace it with a new word ``Harijan.`` The term ``dalit`` was taken up by politically aware and active members of the lower castes themselves, and has now become the preferred term of usage. It is very much a political term - a person who calls himself or herself a dalit is making a political statement, manifestly claiming thousands of years of victimization and margainalization. Since this claim is true, dalits have a right to assert, and draw attention to, their status.

Groups that feel oppressed often do that. A similar linguistic choice one sees, for example, in the case of PONAM - Pakistan Oppressed Nations Movement, though I must add, the two are quite different in other ways.

``Scheduled castes`` and ``scheduled tribes`` are administrative terms. ``Schedule`` here refers to the fact that those individuals whose caste status was unclear were listed under different administrative schedules.

The old term Shudra now has the same status in India as the term nigger has in the United States. If one is foolish or evil enough to use that term in social discourse, one has to pay a price for it.

And I agree with you. The more light we can shed on this evil system, the better it is for us all. It was disgraceful that India fought so hard to keep caste discrimination from being listed as a form of racism. I think that showed a lack of self-confidence that is quite unbecoming of India.

hassann

``Please tell this to any of your Hindu friends. First of all they will never accept it. Even if they accept it, they will be quick to point out that it is changing now.``

You are being patently dishonest. You know very well - as is evident from your post - that most Hindus today do accept the evil of the age-old caste system. You see on Chowk and in every form of Indian media Hindus repeatedly recognizing the evil nature of caste-based discrimination. To cover your tracks, then, you blame Hindus for pointing out that things are changing.

Is it your contention that things are NOT changing in India? There are many dalits who do make that argument, just as there are many blacks in America who argue that nothing has changed from the days of slavery. Both these groups of people have a genuine case that the change is nowhere as fast as anyone would like. You and I can debate the speed of that change, but first you must decide to be honest.

``I had an opportunity of conducting a tour of Indian engineers in Europe. I found out that one engineer always had a room to himself while all others shared rooms to save money. Later on I found out that he was a Harijan or Dalit and no one wanted to share room with him.``

Either you just made that up or you must be a very old and tired bird. Since I prefer to believe that you are honest, may I ask if you have any real teeth left in your mouth? And also, how did you ``find out`` that ``no one`` wanted to share room with this person? Being an engineer myself, I have been to more Indian engineering schools, and have travelled with more engineers of all castes, than you will ever know, and I never heard of any separate accommodations for any one. Yes, those things did happen, but that was the case in my father`s generation.

``One of the main factor in India`s partition has been untouchablity of all Muslims.``

Let us not go there. I avoid discussing partition because both Indians and Pakistanis become emotional dealing with that topic. But if you do have any evidence supporting your assertion, do share. I, on the other hand, can show you a ton of stuff to prove conclusively that you do not know what you are talking about.

``A tourist in India can not figure anything out. This is a deep religious feeling that is hard to change. I have to admit that ancient Munis and Rishis were very smart. They created a system that has continued for thousands of years keeping their off-springs on top.``

The only thing you need to admit is that you have no clue who Munis and Rishis were.

``Just look in matrimonial ads. in any Indian newspapers in India or even in USA. They mention caste as a normal thing.``

As before, you find it hard to think straight. Caste consciousness in India, like group consciousness of varoius kinds in many other parts of world, is strong. IMO such thinking is flat out wrong. I think such stupid walls around our groups are destructive of our humanity, and are harmful for all in the long run. But they are not the same thing as oppression of dalits. Can you see the difference?

``I wish the Dalit lady good luck in her efforts in education of western people.``

All dalits have a right to say what they feel. For a long time they have been dealt a very raw hand, and their bitterness is justifed. No sane person with any degree of self-confidence will begrudge them their right to speak out.

Regards.

Living as one does in urban India, it`s shocking, almost unreal to think that events of the type reported on a daily basis in the newspapers, actually take place even in this `enlightened` age. I was just reading today about Bhanwari Devi and the fact that life for her is even more miserable after her story was turned into a high-profile movie: in addition to oppression, she now has to deal with derision as well! It seems so stupid, to persist with silly notions of racial superiority of the fair-skinned when the real need is for everyone to think of the greater good. Someone explain to me how keeping 80% of your people in enslavement (physical and/or emotional) is good for the country?

What is frustrating is how these events get tackled - currently it`s the guys in the middle: urban, educated, with possibly a more progressive point of view (?) - that bear the brunt of the criticism and action of our so called ``affirmative`` policies, be it reservations or indeed bearing the collective guilt of our ancestors` misdeeds.

I`ll try to explain: my family is a typical Brahmin family: educated, reasonably well-off, nicely suburban, liberal, Western-thinking. Most of my friends are too. There are often times where ``we`` are forced into a situation of having to either condemn the caste system as evil or alternatively, defend it as merely an efficient if somewhat inequitable method of division of labour. I am not saying that either argument is completely wrong. But my point is simply: why am I called upon to defend myself when I don`t think I have done anything wrong?

To the best of my knowledge, I have never snubbed a Dalit or proclaimed my own superiority over one. My mother has never refused to enter a kitchen that has been ``contaminated`` by a Shudra, nor my father refused to eat in a restaurant where the cooks weren`t Brahmins. I am not so sure about my Granddad -- after all he was a priest --- but the guy died 10 years before I was born and I couldn`t care less. I look to the world with injured innocence - why ME? I`m liberal, I`ll bend over backwards to prove how pinko I am. I`ll do a bit of RSS-baiting and Manu-bashing myself because I`m keen to distance myself from those goons that don`t represent the face of liberal India.

I tried this argument on a friend of mine (also...ahem... an enlightened Brahmin). He told me I was whining and my arguments were specious. Supposing he said, you were in possession of a house and lots of land that was yours by inheritance, never mind that generations of poor indentured labourers had been trampled upon in its upkeep and maintenence. Could you justify keeping it all with a clear conscience simply because you ``weren`t around`` in those days when your ancestors were the oppressors? That doesn`t hold buddy, he said, and I nodded wisely.

My point: (after all this, I`d sort of lost it myself).... we need policies that attack such inequities in society at an OPERATIONAL level, if things are to change. Make laws for everything: entry into temples, acccess to amentities, minimum wage, discrimination of ANY kind. Invest in creation of a culture that transcends all barriers, or at least celebrates pluralism (look at Singapore). Have the moral courage to question your own freedoms and privileges that you take for so granted living in a democracy. Create a REPRESENTATIVE government and ensure that the Law when laid down IS actually equal to all.

Any government that can do this- if necessary with iron fist- will only benefit the country in the long run. Of course things will not change overnight. But things ARE getting better, especially in the larger urban pockets. Economic prosperity and exposure to new ideas DOES play a role in tempering age-old prejudice. I long for the day when I can comfortably interact with a fellow Indian without the ghost of the thought ``Where does he come from/ what`s his caste/ what language does he speak`` flitting across my mind.

But one fears it will take lot more than the good intentions of an enlightened few like myself (tongue quite firmly in cheek, believe me) to change the collective mindset of a disjoint and heterogeneous society. We need some big EPISODE, some Lagaan-like watershed that will open our eyes to the reality and bring about change.

Comments welcome. Frankly I don`t care to repartee, just wanted to get something out of the system that`s been sitting inside waiting to be said for a while now.