Muslims and The West After 11th September

Re:shammi#406, prem#408

I know that Musharraf and the Pakistani establishment in general has close ties with the jihadi elements. However, I think Musharraf is too smart to order a bombing of the Indian parliament in the current environment. Given what has happened in Afghanistan, he would be insane to initiate this kind of action, that too in Delhi rather than Kashmir. Let us say that he has a pathological urge to hurt India. Even then he would wait until the US forces and operatives leave the region and his own country, before attempting such stunts.

The key thing to consider is who gains from this operation ? For Musharraf, it is an embarrasment and it causes further discomfort with respect to US. The people who really gain are the LeT and Jaish, as they build up their jihadi support in light of the debacle in Afghanistan. The rogue elements in Pak army and ISI could be big winners, since they may see this as their first step to get rid of Musharraf. Musharraf may have been their champion in the past, but now he is seen as their greatest traitor. As US pressure builds, Musharraf will have to take some steps, which would help these elements to galvanize support to topple Musharraf.

India needs to be careful not to walk into this trap. There would be very little benefit in destabilizing Musharraf. A jihadi Pakistan would be a total disaster while a democratic Pakistan would be of no help either, given the clout of the army there. However, there are several steps we can take. We can organize targeted covert action in Pakistan against the LeT and Jaish. These organizations are quite prominent with proper facilities and we know their leaders. Secondly we must seal our borders with Pakistan. I am not convinced that we are doing our best when it comes to infiltration. The LoC in Kashmir and our international border should be like the border between North and South Korea. We should have a multi-tiered border defence using fencing, high tech surveillance, land mines in inaccessbile terrain etc. In fact, an entire belt of say 5-10km parallel to the border should be converted to a no man`s land with these defence mechanisms, so that no human being can move around in that area. This is something where we can leverage US support. The US can prevail upon Pakistan to stop infiltration and enable us to take these protective measures. It may not be foolproof, but it would be a lot better than the current situation.

At the same time, we must seek a political solution to Kashmir, where we do have a genuine problem. We could start off with some economic moves such as offering tax breaks to businesses for hiring Kashmiris and starting programs for micro-credit to spur small businesses in Kashmir. I would even look into extending reservations to all Kashmiris of all faiths as a counter to militancy. We could convince the US to chip in some measure as well. On the political front, we could offer state assembly elections under UN supervision. Whoever wins will not only form the state government, but also be accepted as the true representative of Kashmiri people in future negotiations with India and Pakistan. This would win instant support from the US and Pakistan would not be able to oppose it given the UN dimension. We will see if the APHC or any other outfit can prove their support in such an election. If they win, they have to run the state and manage the militancy, while negotiating with Indian authorities. If they lose, the entire chapter on Kashmir is closed.

shammi #403 If one puts a human face on the victims, the evil of violence generally and of terrorism in particular, becomes clear. The human face that sticks with me from the New Delhi attack is of the poor gardener who was killed. I can relate him to the ``maalis`` one sees in Pakistan - poor, humble people, raising flowers that introduce beauty in some small patch of land in our world. And there were other poor people who were doing their jobs - the driver, the guards - who were also killed...

Had these terrorists succeeded in their aim - to attack a symbol of democracy in India - they would have made their evil even clearer.

I hope Musharaff puts an end to the Jihadists groups in Pakistan, once and for all. I dont care what proof exists in their involvement in this incident - we all know the goal of the Jihadists is to foment violence, and that is sufficent reason to treat them like the bandits that they are. This is not only the right thing to do, it is also in the self interest of Pakistan as well.

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Re Trillium (#415):

I am aware of the tomb of Mary, mother of Jesus, in town of Muree in Pakistan. Actually, the town name “Muree” is a distorted form of “Mary”. From what I know, the guardians of this tomb, as you also pointed out, claim it to be the grave of a great divine lady, who came there about two thousand years ago. Yes, they believe her to be the mother of Jesus Christ.

According to my understanding, there is no mention of Mary, mother of Jesus, after the Crucifixion events in the New Testament. This makes the scholars wonder … where did Mary go? My understanding is that when Jesus departed in search of the “lost sheep of Israel”, his mother, Mary left with him. This fits well with what you are describing.

However, I did not know that this tomb was bull-dozed!!! I am deeply shocked and saddened to hear this. Zia and his backers may very well have destroyed the grave of this great divine, the mother of Jesus, mentioned with utmost respect in Quran. May Allah bless her soul … may Allah forgive Zia and his people these hideous acts. This is indeed shocking!

On a similar note, the tomb of Jesus still exists in Sirinagar, Kashmir. As I understand it, there are two tombs on the Khanyar Street, somewhat close to each other. One of them, the tomb of some divine (I cannot recall his name) is frequented by a relatively large number of people, while the other tomb, is that of a little-known saint, named Yus Asaf. History of Kashmir records him as a divine “Prince” who came there about two thousand years ago, and was well-received by the people and the rulers of the area. From what I know, the guardians of this tomb claim this divine to be Jesus Christ and have similar folk-tales passed on through generations. I have seen pictures of this tomb in various books. This little-known tomb is the place where Jesus is buried.

Thanks for your very helpful comments. I much appreciate it.

Regards, Asad

re: rsridhar

``I and my brother have this tape. An inexhaustible amount of ashes keep pouring. He stops that downpour at will and restarts it at will.``

...drop by my apartment sometime and i`ll show you some godly powers this fella in vegas taught me last month...you`ll really like the one where i place a card on the table and make it fly around all over the place...

saminashah (#407):

Thanks for the kind comments. Eid Mubarak to you and your family as well.

DRUMZ (#413):

It is conceivable that parallels were drawn between the Zodiac and Jesus, probably owing to Jesus having “twelve” disciples.

Actually, Jesus had eleven disciples. The twelfth disciple, Paul, only came 20-30 years after the “Crucifixion” events. He never met Jesus, but later claimed to have met him in visions. As I understand, Paul introduced in “Christianity” the concept of Trinity (Father God, Son God, and the Holy Ghost) and the idea of vicarious atonement (blood sacrifice of an animal or a human, in order to achieve forgiveness for another person; specifically Jesus, son of God, offering himself for sacrifice so that the sins of the mankind may be forgiven).

As I understand it, Paul was an ambitious person, interested in religious leadership. “Crucifixion” of Jesus was really not a significant issue in terms of the contemporary events, till Paul decided to capitalize on it.

Vicarious atonement, where animals and humans were sacrificed for forgiveness from gods, was already in practice in some Roman religions. Polytheism and trinity were also present in some other Roman religions. Paul offered a new religion, in the name of “Christianity”, where he combined the above-mentioned elements so that “Christianity” would have a mass appeal. He introduced the concept of Father God, sacrificing the Son God, so that the mankind may be forgiven all their sins.

Cloudy events surrounding the birth, and also the death of Jesus, probably further appealed to the public. What also appealed to the public regarding Christianity was the absence of commandments regarding one’s conduct, i.e. one only had to “believe” in Jesus, to be saved. Icing on the cake was Paul’s claims of meeting with Jesus in visions, and that those who accept Christ will “experience” Christ in this very lifetime. These claims expedited acceptance of “Christianity”, lent further credibility to this new religion, while enhancing Paul’s role as the undisputed champion of “Christianity”.

It is also interesting that there were also people who believed in the correct message of Christ. These understood Christ only as a prophet of God, while believing in Oneness of God. These poor souls were severely persecuted by the Romans for almost three centuries. They were fed to the lions and more. To avoid persecution, they left the cities and withdrew into the catacombs outside of Rome. This labyrinth of multilevel, interconnected, caves offered refuge and safety to these people. Several of their generations grew up and spent their lives in and around these catacombs. Later discovery of this hideout, inscriptions on the walls of the caves, and more indicates that these people viewed Christ and God very differently than the Paul’s version of Christianity.

Thoughtful comments from anyone will be appreciated.

Regards, Asad

Re: Dost #418

``...The irony couldn`t be thicker for it was not long ago that the West`s principal enemies in the world of Islam were those very nationalist regimes--like Nasser`s Egypt and the Baathist regimes in Iraq and Syria--...``

Dost, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Ayaz has done us all a disservice. Nasser`s Egypt was not the West`s principal enemy. Remember the Suez Crisis of 1956, which Ayaz conveniently ignores? The US humiliated both France and UK. The Iraqi Baathists were the West`s favorites UNTIL the massacre at Halabja (with chemical munitions). So, delve a little deeper, and draw your conclusions again.

Tahmed 328

Eid Mubarak to all - apology for late response.

Dear Tahmed - ``secular humanism`` is a philosophy Please refer to the ``Humanistist Manifiesto``

published by the ``American Humanist Foundation`` in 1933, and then again ``Humanist Manifesto II`` 1973.

It is in these works and in the works of those who have put their names to these works that you will gleam a more clear understanding of this concept. You will note that I used quotation marks and specified that it is the ``Humanist Manifesto`` that I was quoting.

Dear Sir, there is much of social contruction that we accept, if today Islam and Islamic teaching are not ``mode`` among people who consider themselves reasoning (or just secular), then, perhaps, Socrates`s ````examined life`` can serve as a model and maybe we can begin by examining the content of ideas to which many unthinkingly surrender to. Before we add our ``selves`` to ideas, we must examine the ideas without what we would want them to be.



Drumz

peel the layers gently brother man - but do keep peeling them nevertheless.

Damn I couldn`t resist. I had a lot more info on Jesus, but my dad erased all my sh1t...

Jesus` Aramaic name was Yohoshua ben Yosef (joshua, son of Joseph). How then do u get ``Jesus``? Well, the letters IHS are considered to be the sacred monogram of Christ. However they predate Jesus (they were the sacred symbol of Dionysus-a Greek God). ``IHS`` when translated from Greek to Latin becomes IES (because Greek capital letter ``E`` is the same as the Latin ``H).`` When IES was MIStranslated into English, the J replaced the I, giving us ``JES.`` Adding the masculine suffic ``US`` gets ya ``Jesus.``

-Now, the quran states that Allah made it appear that Jesus had died on the cross. Thinking this, the Israelites hurried to get him of the cross before the Sabbath-when all work was forbidden. They put him in the grave, but when the stone was removed, he wasnt there. Why? (according to the Ahmaddiyyas) He was never dead. John 19:38 says that Nicodemus brought 75 pounds of ointment (frakincence, aloe, myrhh) to the cross. Why the hell would you bring healing ointments to a corpse? The time to ``properly`` crucify someone takes days, while Jesus according to the bible was only on the cross a few hours. Plus, Jesus gave the Jews the sign of Jonah (this cat was in a whale for 3 days/nights. He was alive when he came out.)

That`s Mirza Ahmeds version, but what he, Christianity and Islam neglect is the fact that Jesus` tales were HARDLY historical.

There are at least 10 people who`s stories are EXACTLY the same as Jesus.` The tales originate from Egypt, ethiopia and india. Our ancestors paid homeage and respect to the SUN, the source of life. Later they developed the zodiac to keep track of the sun (seasons, cycles). It was personified in order to be told to the common people...

The Bible was written with Astrological Symbolism-not to be taken literally. The story of Jesus making the disciples `Fishers of Men` is symbolizing the Zodiac sign Pisces (opposite this sign is VIRGO-The virgin Mary). Another verse is when Jesus said, `look for the man holding a pitcher of water...follow him into his house.` This is symbolic of the Zodiac sign Aquarius (the next age). The 12 Disciples (tribes) represent the 12 Zodiac Signs. Jesus represents the Sun.

The ``son`` of god is really the ``sun`` of god. ``Dying`` on the cross is the sun ``Dying`` on the sign of the zodiac. ``Jesus`` is basically a collection of names representing the sun (Hestus, Zeus, Yahashua.) ..The stories of Krishna, Jesus, etc. are meant to teach us of our divine potential to become ONE with Allah.

Ever heard of the egyptian sun God horus? He was born on December 25 from the VIRGIN ISIS. Three wise men came to see him at his Birth-day. At age twelve, he taught at a temple. At thirty, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years. He had 12 disciples. He raised El-Azarus (``El-Osiris``), from the dead, he walked on water, he was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected! Same with krisna, mithra etc...

There`s a LOT more info, but u get the idea....

Re:Reply #: 384

shammi,

You can believe what you want to believe. Even seeing is deceptive. Only experiencing is real. I have seen a tape by Baba`s Australian devotees who taped a ceremony where baba pours holy ashes on a staue of Shirdi baba. I and my brother have this tape. An inexhaustible amount of ashes keep pouring. He stops that downpour at will and restarts it at will. This is not all. I know a number of people who were given materialised objects much larger than what a fist can hold, like a big statue. Of course there are also people who think he is gay and have written web sites condemning him. We live in an age of dualities. Only God is beyond duality. Let us not forget that during Krishna`s times, not everyone believed in his divinity and there were many who thought he was fake. I am sure you do not question his divinity today.

P.C. Sirkar creates illusion. But he needs certain settings and careful preparations to do it. If baba, who has been working miracles for 50 years now, is doing a con-job then he is the greatest con-man that mankind has known. I, however, believe he is genuine, your CNN report notwithstanding (I have a very poor opinion of CNN, especially after the coverage of Afghan war).

Sridhar

tahmedsahab...eid mubarak :) i hope u and your family have a great eid..its heartening to see one sane voice in this past week of people (especially some previously quite vocal pakistanindialove individuals) going wild over the parliament attacks and especially ballistic over our poor musharraf

god bless you

Drumz - Be back to you shortly... You give GREAT question...

sattar2 #405

re: Issa-ibne-Marriam

Before leaving Lahore last year, I was advised of the `tomb of Issa` in Srinegar, but could not visit due to the violence. I also learned of the tomb of `Murrium`, in Mury, the hill station near Islamabad and investigated. The locals told me they`d never heard of it. Others said

Murrium or `Mury` was a nice missionary lady who was buried nearby, but the tomb had been removed.

I discovered a small christian church there and asked the pastor about the tomb. Rev. Sardar said it was the grave of Murrium, mother of Issa, a famous shrine of many years for all religions. He had a photo of it. It was indeed a 2,000 year old grave within sight the mountains of Srinegar just over the border. He said it had been bulldozed away as part of ``Islamization`` several years earlier by Zia-phites. Another for the Bamiyyan Hall of Shame? Are you aware of this former site? Anyone?

A sidelight: 26 Hindus had been butchered just over the border that day. Rev. Sardar was terrified as he huddled with his parishioners in the church compound. A very weird day.

Tahmed Sahib, I hope you can spare two minutes of your valuable time to answer my humble question.

Do you believe that Pakistani groups are involved in this attack on the Indian Parliament?

Sattar: Exactly, though it does ignore a lot of the zodiac -symbolism with the crucifixion, and the other sun-god religions of which Christianity MUST have copied (muslims dont hear bout them cuz that would mean the Quran copied from them too).

Bringing back memories. I think one of his names was YusAsaf (sp?). Jesus definately escaped the crucifixion and fled, there are SOOO many historical accounts of a person like him travelling the world.

Muhammed NEVER said he would be the last messenger, only the ``seal`` of the prophets. Plus the story of Jesus in the Quran only says ``they thought they crucified him, but we brought him up.`` The Quran avoids a timescale, meaning the theory is likely very accurate.

Few Pakistani public figures surprise me more than Gen Beg and Imran Khan. Both have benefited immensely from their Western connections since day one of their professional careers. But post-retirement, each of them says things which is almost calculated to encourage the world`s perception of Pakistan as a retrograde state. WHo suffers? The average Pakistani who is looked with suspicion everywhere now.

General Beg comes across as a rank hypocrite. As for Imran, had I not been a great fan of his cricketing prowess, I`d say the same thing.

re saxena

THanks for reminding me. I just wanted to be polite to the lady. I guess it was a gesture unappreciated.