Muslims and The West After 11th September

Prem #556 ``I truly wish I had a Pakistani friend who would help me present facts to Indians like you too, but unfortunatley I don`t. ``

You called? Paki friend at your service :-)

As for Audio-Video-etc., I dont think you can reason with people like him.

sigalph235---557

No my friend,I`m not under any illusions at all.

The Pakistani `geadership`(sic) with all its delusions about being `modern`,advanced` & `liberal` blah blah is getting back what it deserves--& should get even more!

If Indians are being welcomed by God-fearing practising muslims of Afghanistan then there must be some merit in it & the Indians must have earned it.Why a good Indian should not be preffered to a debauched & munafique Pakistani Muslim?

``Muslim aaeen hua kaffir tO milay hoor O qusoor``?

---- meaning:If a kaafir adopts the tenets of Islam(in the secular sense) then the rewards are there for him too--- a la Qura`an.This is not only good theory but we see the manifestation of it in our daily observations.

Maka`faat e amul is there for every one to see.One can never run away from the Truth until some toll is paid at the turnpikes.Wearing suit & tie,being invited to the masters` house(white),and pretending to be export material demeans not only the geader(sic) but also the nation.

Unless Pakistanis free occupied Pakistan(by its army,bureaucracy,& westernised elite)they have no right to talk about freedom of anykind anywhere.

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Your anguish & mine and that of so many on chowk is no different except that the currencies of conversations have become devalued by alien interferences.

Sometimes I picture ourselves like the elephant seals(walruses?),blubber full,soaking the sun & water on the beach,making gurgling threatening trumpet-calls,dragging ourselves awkwardly only to pile-up on each other...and then everything is the same again.

What else we have to do?

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Re semipreciousme (#513):

One of the biggest reasons of anti-Ahmadiyya sentiment in the mullahs is Mirza Sahib’s claim of prophethood. However, the claim of being the Promised Messiah is also a cause of conflicts, since the mullah thinks that the Messiah Issa-ibne-Marriam exists in flesh and blood in the sky and is supposed to descend down to earth in the “later days”.

Ahmadi-Muslims believe that Quran, the perfect, complete, final Word of Allah has been fully revealed through Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). We also believe that Mohammd (pbuh) was the last prophet who brought Law from Allah. However, as people go astray, and teachings of Islam get corrupted, Allah will continue to raise prophets. These prophets will not bring a new law, rather they will bring people back to the original, pristine teachings of Islam. Also, prophethood can only be attained through following the message of Quran, and by holding Hazrat Mohammad (pbuh) in utmost respect, as the Ultimate prophet of Allah.

This is how Ahmadi-Muslims interpret “seal of prophethood” mentioned in Quran, Surah-e-Ahzab. It means the ultimate authority in Prophets, one with the highest status, the bearer of the “official document” (i.e. Quran), the “seal” that validates the message of other prophets.

This meaning of “seal” is very clear from the context of the preceding verses, and this can be easily shown. My understanding of Quran is that here “seal” cannot be understood as “last”, since that would raise contradictions in Quran where coming of other messengers is hinted at, in at least two other places.

Best regards,

Asad

Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 506

[digit # 504

``The Immaculate Conception refers to the birth of Mary, and not of Christ. Not that it matters, but I just thought I`d bring it up.``

No. It refers to the conception, BY MARY, of Jesus, without all that vulgar genital in-out stuff. Hence immaculate. In fact hence immaculate conception - note: not immaculate birth.]

Zafar, Digit is right and you are wrong. However, it is a common mistake by most people who assume that since Jesus was conceived of a virgin, it was his conception that was immaculate.

Go to the nearest Catholic church in Sydney and ask the priest there.

PS. You guys ever read the Far Eastern Economic Review? In the Traveller`s Tales section, it was once reported that in Manila, there is a clinic called the Immaculate Conception Birth Control Clinic!

Ref rajanjua

#: 535

[It would also look better compared to shooting down unarmed recon. aircrafts.]

Shooting down your ``unarmed`` military aircraft was payback for the 1965 shooting down of a Cessna carrying the Chief Minister of Gujarat. At least, our jets got a multi-million dollar military aircraft and 16 Pak naval officers as opposed to the pathetic Pak Air Force which got a single-engine Cessna with its jet fighters.

By the way, we did it in the same geographic region.... Gujarat. You may not get the message but the Pak Air Force definitely did.

re: banjara & langoor rajanjua

yeah, and the kooran also had quantum mechanics figured out...people were just too stupid to see it...deluded SOBs...

Prem # 549

``PS: Where have you been hiding? Don`t see much of you these days.``

I am here but as Faiz said:

Aur bhi gham hain zamanay mein muhabbat ke siva

Dont recall having interacted with you but thanks

for asking:)

regards.

PS:Not being very knowledgable about religion,this

site was very impressive hence the cutNpaste.

Shammi sahab

I should clarify a few things- I think i gave you the wrong impression. Shias are NOT discriminated in Pakistan on the state level nor at the individual level. Therefore rest assured, Mr.jinnah will not be indulging in any ghulaatian in his grave:) I have as good a chance of getting into a school, university, multinational, restaurant for food and civil service as any Sunni in my country. The terror i felt was for my father, who the men on the bike were looking at most curiously (i think it might have been the ferociously white beard and pipe:)) and those days the assasinations were being carried out by men on bikes who knew exactly what they were doing. They were familiar with the routes and targetted precisely the shia professionals and scholars, which is why i was freaked...my point was to say that this petrified me- I who can turn around and smack straight across the face anyone who dares to say anything demeaning to me because of my faith, I who can without any fear wear things that show my faith openly (black clothes in moharram, the taveez we wear around the neck etc)..That the ahmedi`s are as good as dead were they to do any of the above, that theyre discriminated on the basis of their religion by the state is what my point was...i think i was trying to convey to asad how i (maybe) understand more than a few others the feeling of intense fear and anger at someone being able to do this to us on the basis of what we believe in...its just not fair...pls know that this was in no way a complaint against my country...it has provided me, as a shia, a minority in the muslim population, the freedom to do whatever i wish to do

thank you terribly, for your wishes..that was a lovely lovely thing to say

re hamzad afaqui 541

Dude, don`t you guys get it? In spite of your fairy tales and all, Pakistan and Pakistanis are considered dirt by normal Afghans. You guys should be worried about why staunchly Muslim Afghans shower welcomes on Indians and are ready to kill Pakistan`s diplomats.

Pakistan and its ummah bretheren were on the wrong side. The sooner these mercenaries are mercilessly eradicated from Afghanistan the better. I am upset that there is even talk of the Coalition granting these thugs Geneva Convention rights; rights that these animals wouldn`t bestow on anybody if the situation was reversed.

What do you expect us to do? Tune out CNN(not that its the greatest TV) and tune into PTV and Al-Jazeera? PLease...

Face it. In Afghanistan, the Pakistani Islamist complex has lost four-square. And this is only the beginning. Those governments who even evince sympathy for the bad guys will and ought to be punished. And if that means a few Daisy Cutters here and there, praise the Lord!

audio-video-radio # 545

Thank you for the compliment. Yes, I am a sympathizer of Muslims. You should be too. For, almost a fifth of our own people are Muslims, most as patriotic, many of them more patriotic than you and me.

Perhaps the unparodonable crime your hyperventilating little brain was trying to pin on me was sympathizing with Pakistanis. Unfortunately for you, I gladly accept that accusation too. Unlike you, I neither blame all Pakistani people for terrorism in India nor do I shrink from telling Pakistanis the hard truth as it is. That, ofcourse, is beyond the comprehension of one-sided, one-eyed morons like you.

I truly wish I had a Pakistani friend who would help me present facts to Indians like you too, but unfortunatley I don`t.

Dear Sattar:

Thanks for your two scholarly posts.

My question – why “permanence” should necessarily be DIVINE? -- if anything it is the “impermanence” -- that should be DIVINE – remember -- only CHANGE -- is “permanent” in the universe!

The wish for permanence -- in a definitely impermanent world – is purely a man-made – much desired but futile emotion – like chasing the rainbow.

Now we can’t have the rainbow of permanence in our lives – so we gave it to the DIVINE.

And yet, after giving HIM the unworldly trait of “permanence” – we the MAN/ WOMAN gave HIM all the wordly attributes of medieval human being – the praise loving egotistical slave master – who wants everybody to bow before him – is very unhappy with those who don’t -- very unpredictable – sometimes forgiving – other times unforgiving – the builder – the destroyer – the vengeful torturer -– and the benevolent prize giver –- a GOD -- with all the weaknesses and the strengths of an emotionally frail human.

The Christians say -- GOD made MAN in HIS image – may be -- but on closer scrutiny -- it rather seems just the opposite -- MAN made GOD in HIS image – and called it DIVINE.

Hobbyty #539 You will be pleased to learn that I decided to move out of my state of blissful ignorance and to read the first of the readings you suggested, the Atlantic magazine`s article on the Quran. Basically, the article describes how the Quran was revealed to the Prophet verbally, that the Prophet could not write and relayed what he heard orally to others, and that the Quran in it`s current form was written perhaps a century after the death of the Prophet. It describes how parts of the Quran are quite incomprehensible to people. But there is nothing new or even contentious here. It does not by any means take away from a muslim the right to believe in one God and in Muhammed being His Prophet. We all know that these are beliefs, not something that we need to try and prove or disprove scientifically. Nor are we expected to understand everything in the Quran, just as we cannot understand everything in the universe. The things we do understand - that the important thing is to our deeds, and that our deeds must be based on a love for learning about God`s Creation, respect for all people, kindness and so on - are in fact simple enough.

I dont see this as an attack on Islam. Here is a passage from the article: ``Yet Islam became one of the world`s great religions in part because of its openness to social change and new ideas. (Centuries ago, when Europe was mired in its feudal Dark Ages, the sages of a flourishing Islamic civilization opened an era of great scientific and philosophical discovery. The ideas of the ancient Greeks and Romans might never have been introduced to Europe were it not for the Islamic historians and philosophers who rediscovered and revived them.) Islam`s own history shows that the prevailing conception of the Koran is not the only one ever to have existed, and the recent history of biblical scholarship shows that not all critical-historical studies of a holy scripture are antagonistic. They can instead be carried out with the aim of spiritual and cultural regeneration. They can, as Mohammed Arkoun puts it, demystify the text while reaffirming ``the relevance of its larger intuitions.````

How can you think of this as an attack on Islam? The last sentence of the quote is particularly relevant and worth thinking about. The ``larger intuitions`` - belief in a Supreme Consciousness, interest in God`s creations and so forth. This is what all great religions are about.

If we muslims got off our high horse and saw ourselves as we are told to see ourselves by the Quran itself - not a ``chosen people`` but like any other people - I think we will feel less insulted and more pleased if people spend their energies studying Quran from a historical perspective. Islam is in no danger, and these are not attacks.

So, I think you can join me in bliss, not ignorant bliss, but bliss in the knowledge that we dont have to be so defensive. That Islam is more than just one Book - it is first and foremost the concept of a Supreme Being that we muslims believe were imparted to the Prophet. And that we share these concepts with people of other faiths.

Famed Kashmiri poet - Agha Shahid Ali passed away last week in New York -- after a long illness with terminal cancer -- at the young age of 52.

1949 -- 2001

May his anguished soul rest in peace -- and may his beloved paradise on earth -- find peace and tranquility -- in 2002.

Our heart felt condolence and prayers to his family in Kashmir and in New York.

Following is an interesting article from the now famous young Pakistani author, Kamila Shamsie:

``Flames clinging to a torched village

India talks of terrorism, and the world listens. But the Kashmiris have tens of thousands dead, and the world is deaf to their plight. By Kamila Shamsie.

At a conference in America a few weeks ago, I stressed the urgent need to find a political solution in Kashmir. We must stop thinking about Kashmir in terms of what India and Pakistan want, and start thinking about the rights of the Kashmiris, I argued.

Afterwards, an Indian student approached me and asked: ``But isn`t it hypocritical for successive Pakistani governments to talk about the importance of allowing Kashmiris to vote for their future when there is no democracy in Pakistan?`` ``Of course it is,`` I replied. ``But how is the hypocrisy of Pakistan relevant to the Kashmiri right to self-determination?``

The problem for the Kashmiris is that India (unwittingly aided by Pakistan) has succeeded in making it relevant. India`s stance on Kashmir is that there is really no internal problem, and all the troubles are created by Pakistan-sponsored religious militants......(http://www.indexonline.org/news/20020610_kashmir.shtml)

Drumz - `Anacalypsis` from the Greek I think, meaning an `uncovering` or `revealing`. Yeah, I`ve heard of it. Rare set of books I`d like to check out. They`re supposedly pretty expensive. I tried some searches but can`t find any excerpts.

Any clue?

You`ve mentioned stuff on The Feminine, my main focus of research right now. Do you have any source for the Saudi goddesses destroyed at the birth of Islam, like Al-lat? Al-Manat (goddess of fate) worshipped in the form a black stone, and Al-Uzza (goddess of East Mecca) who had human sacrifices carried out in her name. There was a total of 360 deities. Anything?

The Islamic quadratic (4 geometry I mentioned, has heavy feminine symbology. Go figure. (Present day stuff must be revenge of the Goddess:0) The Christian trinity is masculine. There seem to be strong connections between the two mathematically, a possible fusion, provable via geometries. What a great puzzle.

re: banjaara

Very impressive - I see saxena shouting hellalujah, praise to Allah and sadna exchanging her sai baba vaccation with hajj - You guys are so wacked out, its depressing.