Muslims and The West After 11th September

re shah

``What kind of moron are you 50+ cant get past ww2 german & jew.``

Frankly that`s the only part of the post which was semi-coherent, hence I`ll comment.

Fifty years is too short a time to forget 6 million. As for Germans and WW2, I cannot easily forget since I am the grandson of WW2 vets.

That said no sane person should forget what happened then. We repeat mistakes when we forget them. Hitler was evil, the Nazis were the bad guys, abd Jews were the principal victims of that man`s blood-thirst. Only revisionist historians deny that.

saminashah #
I might have misunderstood your post, but Indian Muslims are not fighting for an Islamic state within India. Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad are Pakistani organisations, collecting funds, recruiting and training jihadis within Pakistan. And if what the press says is right, of the five attackers, 2 were Afghan, 1 was Pakistani and only 2 were Kashmiri. For Afghans and Pakistanis to realise their political aspirations, they have to fight within Afghanistan and Pakistan resp, not in India.

Amit # 393

Amit, I very much hope there is no knee-jerk reaction by the Indian government. Also, I would hate to see our own thugs creating trouble under any pretext. If anyone raises a violent racket, they should be locked up.

But I am not sure I agree with your understanding of the Pakistani army`s relationship with the terrorists. You assume that these terrorist organizations work entirely independently of Pakistani army. That was my majory worry until recently. I had begun to assume the worst - that these terrorist organizations had established a parallel state within Pakistan, in a symbiotic relationship with the Pakistani army, and thus were not entirely within the grasp of the Pakistani military anymore.

The Afghanistan episode has happily put that theory to rest, at least for now. It is clear that the Pakistani military has these terrorist organizations by the scruff of their necks. These terrorists are as independent of the Pakistani army as the Kargil ``Mujahiddin`` were. Remember, Pakistani newspapers were full of claims those days how Pakistan had no control over those ``indigenous freedom fighters.`` Ofcourse, Pakistan recalled those ``indigenous freedom fighters`` within a few days of the Prime Minister Sharif receiving a dressing down in Washington.

A theory that has some, if not much, plausibility is that there are ``rouge`` elements within and outside Pakistani military who are genuinely working against the peaceful and friendly intentions of Musharraf. We KNOW Musharraf is powerful enough to turn his country`s policies on their heads within 24 hours, as he did in Afghanistan. Will he eliminate these terrorist groups?

Don`t hold your breath, Amit. The problem with Musharraf is not that he is against Jihadi outfits and actions, but that he is against only certain types of Jihadi outfits and actions. For others, he is very much a willing soldier and Jihadi.

Sattar2

I must say it has been good to read your posts in terms of understanding an Ahmedi position. Please keep it up. Eid Mubarak!

Amit

I can appreciate some of the possibly mitigating factors that you have introduced. I wonder how both countries will begin to approach this matter. I agree with Sadna that it is outrageous and inacceptable that the Parliament of a country can be attacked; clearly there are no comfortable answers here for anyone.

Interesting article in the New York Times Magazine about how the leadership in Uzbekistan is dealing with Muslim fundamentalist groups who want to turn Uzbekistan into an Islamic state...on one hand they are deemed ``unconsitutional`` and on the other they are subjected to human rights abuses.

regards

Re: Amit

“There is considerable speculation that the attack on teh Indian parliament was carried out by the Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad, but without consent from the Pakistani government….”

Are you implying that the other attacks that these organizations routinely carry out are WITH the consent of the Pakistani government? If so, is the same government not culpable?

“What better way to embarass him, than to cause sensational attacks in India ?…”

And what better way for the General to avoid embarrassment than to find common cause with India on this issue as Tahmed321 suggests? Why, instead, ask those who work for him to go on TV and say it was a ‘staged’ attack? A hoax? Is the General not allowing his own ambivalence to paint himself into a corner where he CAN be embarrassed by Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad?

“…The other motivation may be to punish India for supporting the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan…”

Do you mean with or without the blessings of the General? Not that I care much about the difference. He is in a position of authority. Everyone acknowledges that he has bottled up the religious fringe elements in his society. So, to allow this to happen HAS to have his consent.

“It is also a good time to restart negotiations with Pakistan not only to resolve our problems but also to ensure that Musharraf gets the political cover to finally squash these militant outfits in Pakistan…”

What political cover did Colin Powell extend to Musharraf when he told him `either you are with us or against us?`. Musharraf complied with nary a protest. The only genuine political cover that he received was to be allied with a righteous cause. There can be no substitute for that. Remember Munich, 1938? Appeasement leads to ever increasing demands, and postponement, not avoidance of war. He does not need political cover than the opportunity to do the right thing (ie arrest those who kill randomly) – Afghanistan has given him plenty. He to anoint himself President and to ensure self-preservation used the respectability that India bestowed on him in Agra. He needs political will, and that does not come shrink-wrapped in packages. It comes from a popular mandate. He needs to see the writing on the wall – politicizing religion to execute state policy is disastrous. But that is exactly what the ISI has been engaged in since the time of Zia. From India’s perspective, he is gradually becoming irrelevant, if he fails to stop these attacks on seats of authority in India. In all of this, the ordinary people of Pakistan have NO SAY WHATSOEVER. They should not become an Indian target. They are unfortunately being led by an institution that has successfully projected itself as the last hope to its own people, while simultaneously being led towards an abyss, first in a confrontation with Afghanistan/Iran, then in a confrontation with India. Something has to be terribly wrong with the polity of a society that cannot get along with most nations that it shares a common border with. Nothing, I repeat, nothing is more important than to ensure that vital centers of state authority function unhindered.

Re: your point of mending fences – good fences make good neighbors

Come on, don’t tell me that India has not been trying to seal of infiltration routes. Please get real.

“There should be an effort made under US supervision to manage the border between India and Pakistan more effectively…”

And how do conclude that ‘border management’ is linked to this attack? Did the attackers make their political aims (if any) clear? The suspect organizations’ agenda is to ‘convert India into an Islamic state’ (believe it or not). How will ‘border management’ satiate their appetite? Does the Pakistani government have the political will to do ‘border management’? Please think through the cause and effect.

Re: Sadna

“…If we wait too long, its like inviting more such attacks…”

I think that wisdom in thought and action is more desirable than a shoot-from-the-hip quick response. I think that the stakes have been raised very high, and I concur that this should not be allowed to pass without a response. Our intention should not be to punish, but to deter.

semipreciousme (#394):

Here’s a brief account of events surrounding Issa-ibne-Marriam, a.k.a. Jesus Christ (pbuh).

Issa was a prophet of God sent for the reformation of the twelve tribes of Israel. These tribes were the descendants of the twelve sons of Prophet Jacob (his title was “Israel”), son of Prophet Isaac, son of Prophet Abraham.

At the time of Issa (pbuh), the Jewish people were waiting for the coming of the Messiah, the “first” Messiah, as prophesied by Torah. It is worth noting that Torah mentions the “ascension” of Prophet Elijah to the sky, and that Elijah will ``descend`` at the time of the Messiah. When Issa claimed to be the Messiah, he was asked about the much-expected ``descent`` of Elijah to earth. He responded that John the Baptist (Prophet Yahya), a companion of Issa, had come in the spirit of Elijah.

The Jewish clergy, unwilling to give up their religious authority, conspired with the Roman courts, and charged Issa with blasphemy against their faith. The Roman judge, Pointus Pilate, although a well-meaning person, buckled under political pressure from the clergy, and sentenced Issa for crucifixion.

Crucifixion was a process of slow death, spread over a day or two, which killed the victim by trauma, fatigue, blood loss, collapse of lungs under pressure, and more. Sometimes, after a day or two, the victim would be taken down from the Cross, alive, and his bones would be broken to finally kill him. Putting the victim on the Cross was also a way to deter others by a show of torture.

On a Friday mid-afternoon, Issa and two others (some thieves) were put on the cross for crucifixion. After a few hours (3-4 hours), the sun went down, and the Jewish day of Sabbath began. Having a person on the cross during Sabbath was against the Jewish belief, so the three victims were taken down from the crosses. All three were alive, and we know that Issa had slipped into the state of coma by then. The bones of the two other victims were broken, indicating that 3-4 hours on the cross was not enough to finish them off. Joseph of Arimathaea (a local councilman, and sympathizer of Issa) came forward and asked that the bones of Issa not be broken and that the body of Issa be handed over to Joseph. Pointus Pilate and others, mistakenly thinking that Jesus was dead, obliged with the request of Joseph of Arimathaea. Also, one of the soldiers had poked unconscious Jesus on the side with a spear, and blood and water came out, indicating a beating heart. This minor point went unnoticed by all except a few. Gospel of John gives a detailed account of this in chapter 19.

Sympathizers of Issa took him inside a “tomb”, where he was wrapped up in aloes and ointments. He gained consciousness, rested there for a day or so, recovered enough to move about, and escaped. He later met with his disciples who initially thought he was a ghost. But Issa convinced them that he was indeed human by eating fish and honey and showing them his wounds. He left the disciples shortly after that.

It is worth noting that at the time of Issa, only two out of twelve tribes of Israel were settled in Jerusalem. The remaining ten tribes had migrated eastwards owing to a history of wars and persecution. Present day Afghans and Kashmiris are descendants of the Israelite tribes. Their facial features, naming conventions (naming of towns, roads etc.), and culture have strong resemblance to those of ancient Israelites, as recorded in history and in Bible. Jesus, a prophet for the Israelites, set out in search of the remaining ten tribes of Israel (“lost sheep of Israel”) and preached to them the message of God along the way. He was accepted by the people as a divine messenger and eventually died in Kashmir. His little-known tomb is in the town of Sirinagar, in the Khanyar district.

Same conclusions regarding the account of Issa-ibne-Marriam were reached by a Russian researcher, Nicholas Notovitch. A German scholar, Holger Kersten (I hope I remember his name correctly) reached the same conclusion when he traveled to Kashmir and researched this issue in detail. A Muslim scholar named Al-Shatoot (sp?) who studied at the Al-Azhar University in Egypt came to the same conclusion.

The Hadith regardig the return of Issa-ibne-Marriam does not mean the physical descent of Issa-ibne-Marriam. Issa has passed away, just like any other mortal human, and this is very clear from Quran as well. The Hadith means “coming” of Issa in a spiritual sense. This is parallel to the “coming” of Elijah, which was fulfilled by the personality of John the Baptist.

Muslim scholars have misunderstood the Quranic verses that discuss Issa-ibne-Marriam. The have tailored the meaning and interpretation of these verses to fit their preconceived notions. This “tailoring” has led to contradictions in several places in Quran, science, and rationality, but this is conveniently ignored by the mullahs. Consequently Islam is understood and preached as a religion of fairy tales by these mullahs. Sometimes they can explain Islam, while at other times they fail miserably at explaining Islam to an intelligent person.

Ahmadi-Muslims believe that Mirza Ghulam of Qadian came in the spirit of Issa-ibne-Marriam, as prophecied by the Dear Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). He claimed to be the Mahdi of the 14th century, the long-awaited Messiah, and a prophet of God. The real Issa-ibne-Marriam was a non-law bearing Prophet. He did not bring a new law, but brought people back to the teachings of the then-existing law of Torah. Similarly, the “second Issa-ibne-Marriam” is not to bring a new law, but will take people back to the original teachings of the Quran. Ahmadi-Muslims believe in Quran to be the last, complete, absolute, perfect word of Allah for the mankind, and that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the noblest of all prophets.

The coming of the long-awaited Messiah has sparked off a storm in the Islamic world. The mullah, just like the times of the first Messiah (Issa-ibne-Marriam), wants to maintain his authority over the people, and has severely persecuted the Ahmadi-Muslim community. Ahmadi-Islam purges Islam of its dogma and irrational believes and presents the original Islamic message with emphasis on understanding and practicing Quran, traditions of the dear prophet (pbuh), and peace and harmony in the world. The case of Issa-ibne-Marriam is but one example of “Ahmadi-Islam”, recorded history, and human reasoning completely complementing each other.

Your Ahmadi friends probably visit England to attend the Ahmadi-Muslim yearly convention (“jalsaa sa’lana”). It used to be held in Rabwah, Pakistan, but since Mirza Tahir Ahmad, the “khalifaa” of the community was forced to migrate to England during the times of Zia, the center has shifted to England.

Feel free to comment if you so desire. Regards,

Asad

Re:Reply #: 393

Amit,

I do not know how you got the impressions that there is a feeling in India that Mushy was not aware of the attack on Indian Parliament. The reports coming out of that country clearly indicate that they think Mushy is involved. He and ISI must have known. Anyway, how he reacts to the situation will reveal his real intentions. He has to sincerely crackdown on these terrorists, stop their finances and stop sheltering them to prove to India and world that he means business. Anything short will be taken as complicity.

Even if he had nothing to do with this and this was terrorists` way of avenging his support to US, see what happens if you support terrorists. He is riding a jehadi tiger and is unable to dismount. My own take on this is, his days are numbered (months if not days). Hope Uncle Sam will be there to collect the nuclear assets when Mushy hits ground zero.

Sridhar

Re: Tahmed321

What you say is very true.

``...human life is more important than land...``

The attackers of the Parliament made no demands, nobody claimed responsibility, etc. There is no apparent linkage with any cause (land or lack of it). They came with a purpose to kill wantonly and for no other apparent purpose. They loved death more than life. They loved to die more than to spend it with their own loved ones, or to let others spend it with their kin. They were human only in form.

Nasah and all Chowkies,

Eid Mubarak to you and your families! Hope you are all safe and well.

-S

sigalph/binifer,

I think both of you are on the same frequency, but you guys are using emotion to counter each other. I dont feel either of you (or any decent human being) rejoices over the death of innocent civilians.

Untold number of East Pakistani civilians were massacred in 71. Sigalph, I dont think you want the same to happen to todays Pakistani, Afghan, Iraqi civilians or any other civilians.

Binifer, the US govt didnt bomb the crap out of Afghanistan on Sept 12th. They asked the Taleban to fork over Al-qeeda. So did Mushy. The US did show evidence of OBL`s involvement in Sept 11 attack to Mushy. Mushy did publicly state that the US evidence was clear & convincing.

The Taleban had a meeting with its ``council of elders`` & ultimately Mullah Omer prevailed over them & dug his heels by telling the US to take a hike. In fact, he scorned the US & even dared them to attack Afghanistan, with threats that the Americans would suffer the same fate as the Russians.

The Taleban wanted proof! PROOF?! In hindsight, judging from the ``jury`` of the Ummah re how they have reacted to the recent OBL tape--it was POINTLESS to show proof. It would have been outrightly dissmissed anyways; with MORE conspiracy theories.

What the HECK do you expect Americans to do---use foul language to make OBL surrender & face trial?!

What the HECK do you expect the Americans to do about Saddam? Those of you who blame America for the deaths of Iraqi children--let me ask you--is it America`s or Saddam`s fault? Saddam has millions of dollars to build palaces for himself--but has NO money for baby food , medicines & vaccines? Sanctions DO NOT BLOCK HUMANITARIAN AID.

Aaah! but its ``politically correct`` to blame America!

Now I`m getting emotional:)

Post not validated, because of interactor`s tendency to make TAhmed put his foot in his mouth.

- Chowk Staff

PS: btw, Musharraf has had opportunity to demonstrate his goodwill, by shutting up Masood Azhar, by helping track down the hijackers of IC-814, by handing over Dawood Ibrahim.
It makes absoolutely no sense to view every such wasted opportunity not as a sign of ill intention as it is but as a deferred opporunity till the next terrorist attack.

Amit #393
`` to ensure that Musharraf gets the political cover to finally squash these militant outfits in Pakistan. ``

Amit, can anyone point out a report of even a single person getting arrested (or officially named) for Shia murders in Karachi? For the Christian murders in Bahawalpur? What political cover did Musharraf need to take action and protect his own citizens? No, he and his government seem to have made a deal with the concerned parties, pipe down and there will be no punitive action. One can only speculate what was offered in such a deal, but whatever it is, its injurious to ordinary citizens when the government makes deals with extremists.

Until recently, the existence of Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad type outfits was even DENIED, even on chowk. What are such outfits doing existing at all much less issuing statements from Lahore/Islamabad?

The root of the problem is not Musharraf`s and the mighty Pakistani Army`s perceived weakness(which is marketed as a highly saleable quantity for the world`s and sentimental Indians` benefit), the root of the problem is Musharraf`s and his establishment`s cohabitation with jihadi elements and the religious establishment for mutual benefit. Believe me, if Musharraf really wanted to do something he would.

And don`t rely on Pakistanis in opinionmaking and decisionmaking positions waking up out of their self-delusions anytime soon, they will only do so when their skin is on the line, as happened post Sept 11 wrt Afghan jihad.

Amit #393
`` to ensure that Musharraf gets the political cover to finally squash these militant outfits in Pakistan. ``

Amit, can anyone point out a report of even a single person getting arrested (or officially named) for Shia murders in Karachi? For the Christian murders in Bahawalpur? What political cover did Musharraf need to take action and protect his own citizens? No, he and his government seem to have made a deal with the concerned parties, pipe down and there will be no punitive action. One can only speculate what was offered in such a deal, but whatever it is, is injurious to ordinary citizens when the government makes deals with extremists.

Until recently, the existence of Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad type outfits was even DENIED, even on chowk. What are such outfits doing existing at all much less issuing statements from Lahore/Islamabad?

The root of the problem is not Musharraf`s and the might Pakistani Army`s perceived weakness(which is marketed as a highly saleable quantity of the world`s and sentimental Indians` benefit), the root of the problem with Musharraf`s and his establishment`s cohabitation with jihadi elements and the religious establishment for mutual benefit. Believe me, if Musharraf really wanted to do something he would.

And don`t rely on Pakistanis in opinionmaking and decisionmaking positions waking up out of their self-delusions anytime soon, they will only do when their skin is on the line, as happened post Sept 11 wrt Afghan jihad.

Saminashah, tahmed, and Shammi -- 3 certified Secular Humanists.

Eid Mubarak.

Re:saminashah #378

There is considerable speculation that the attack on teh Indian parliament was carried out by the Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad, but without consent from the Pakistani government. It could very well be a power play whose target might be in India, but the real objective may be to hurt the government of Pakistan. The militant groups are very upset with Musharraf after the Afghanistan events. What better way to embarass him, than to cause sensational attacks in India ? It would make the general look bad and he would face extra pressure from the US to crack down on these groups in Pakistan. If he tried to do that, rouge elements in Pakistan army or the ISI could stage a counter-coup to create a government that would go back to supporting jihadi tendencies. The other motivation may be to punish India for supporting the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.

I think India should not make a knee jerk reaction and investigate this matter properly. There should be an effort made under US supervision to manage the border between India and Pakistan more effectively. After all, good fences make good neighbors. It is also a good time to restart negotiations with Pakistan not only to resolve our problems but also to ensure that Musharraf gets the political cover to finally squash these militant outfits in Pakistan.