Muslims and The West After 11th September

re: sri l. k. advani (hindustan times)

``Home Minister L.K. Advani on Friday said the decision to withdraw India`s High Commissioner in Islamabad had not been taken in haste. He said Pakistan had to pay for not acting against terrorist groups based there.``

When Musharaf found out about this punitive measure taken by the govt. of india, he was heart broken - The indian high commissioner was an old bridge buddy and a valuable friend - He allegedly commented that he would have preferred a ``surgical strike`` of indian commandos against the training camps rather than parting with his langotiya yaar, the Indian High Commissioner - A candle in his honor will be lit every night in the Army House until he comes back.

Banjaara # 542

Oh Banjaara! Believe me, I have nothing against those who believe that the Quran is the word of God, I believe that too, but please don`t take that kind of stuff too seriously :)

Perhaps you haven`t associated with fundamentalist Christians too much. They, as well as many Jews, have made this business of decoding mathematical structures (codes) in their ``holy`` books quite a growth industry. The ``Faith Bible Church`` in Ithaca, NY, actually specialized in such stuff, with their members ever ready to prove to anyone that mathematically Bible was the only true book of God!

To satisfy yourself, just do a Google on ``Bible Code`` or ``Cosmic Code`` or something similar, and you will have a gazillion references to people busy finding their express ways to God along this path :)

This entire approach falls within the broad category of ``self-authenticating`` arguments that some people use to persuade others about the validity of THEIR unique sources of knowledge; and specific method you presented is an example of the famous (or more appropriately, the infamous) cryptographic method.

If you are partial to that genre of thinking, I suggest you read some far more satisfying essays on the relationship between Mathematics, Physics, and Spirituality. If you are interested, I should be able to dig out some references for you.

Best regards.

PS: Where have you been hiding? Don`t see much of you these days.

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Re scout (#501):

Actually, we need to carefully define “divine intervention” and “miracles” of God. As an Ahmadi-Muslim, I do not believe in any “miracles” that violate natural laws. Belief in such “miracles” drives a rift between religion and rationality, and evolves into a dogma of fairy-tales. It divorces religion from the realities of life, and leads one to superstition.

Towards the end of Surah-e-Israel in Quran, the Prophet is commanded that … if people ask you to show them gardens with streams, or a palace of gold, or that you should go to heaven and bring them a book as proof of truth, tell them “glorious is my Lord, I am but a human sent as a messenger”.

Here “glorious is my Lord” also means that my Lord is full of grandeur and excellence … he does not resort to magic and tricks … exercise your intellect and search within you … and you’ll see the truth of my message …

However, Allah does “intervene” in a way … for example he rescued Jesus from death against all odds, and revealed this to Jesus in advance. All this was done without violating any natural laws … this was a display of “divine intervention” … where one “clearly sees” the “invisible hand of God” at work.

Similarly, Moses parting the Sea did not happen as commonly understood. It can be explained easily by a combination of low tide and elevated ground when Moses led his people across the sea. Later, when the Pharaoh tried to cross the waters, he either missed the elevated ground, or was swept by the high tide. This explanation is consistent with Quranic verses, and fits well with Quran’s overall message of Allah being glorious. Now, the “miracle” here may be the timing of the whole episode, which coincided with the tides in the ocean, and Moses hitting the elevated spot on the ground.

If Jesus was indeed born by parthenogenesis or some similar process, it would not constitute a “miracle” which defies natural laws. Similarly, other children born from a similar process will not necessarily be equivalent to Jesus. As I understand, prophethood is not achieved through process of unusual birth or something similar … but due to one’s pious nature and there being a need for a prophet, as decided by the Powers that be.

Now, if we go with the “naughty Mary” theory, as I mentioned earlier it raises even more conflicts … for me at least. So for now I am stuck with parthenogenesis … till I find a better explanation …which of course cannot violate natural laws or Quranic teachings.

Asad

In Kabul Indians get a bear hug

Agencies/Kabul

Kabul is one place today where an Indian visitor is glad to flaunt his nationality and Pakistanis would hate to be in.

Whether it is government offices or public places, Indians are greeted warmly, sometimes even with a bear hug, by smiling Afghans.

At the Foreign Ministry, the uniformed male receptionist wanted to see the equipment carried by a group of Indian journalists. ``Indians? Indians?`` he asked on being told of their identity. ``No Pakistanis, okay, please go,`` he said, directing the group to the Press office with a back slap and a smile.

``This is one place we are glad to be an Indian,`` commented a scribe. It is not journalists alone who are being greeted with such warmth.

A group of five doctors who have been here for the last three weeks as part of India`s relief effort and have been working at the Indira Gandhi Institute for Child Health, set up with Indian aid in the late 1960s, said they had been overwhelmed by the goodwill and affection shown by parents of their patients.

``Many of them remembered names of Indian doctors who had worked at the hospital before and asked about their welfare,`` A R Basu, a surgeon, said.

The Indian doctors are held in such high regard that often parents come to them with prescriptions given by Afghan doctors. ``But because of professional ethics we try to avoid seeing them,`` said B C Nambiar, an anesthetist.

Hindi film music can be heard in street corners and in taxis, and the only two functioning cinema halls here are screening Bollywood movies. Pirated video cassettes of recent Bollywood releases like the Amitabh Bachchan starrer ``Mohabbatein,`` smuggled in through Pakistan, are available in the markets. If the Afghans are effusive towards Indians, their anger against Pakistanis too is vented loudly. They say the Taliban cadres were largely composed of Pakistanis.

``They raped our country. We hate them,`` said Sanjar, a second-year medical student. ``When they were fleeing after the American bombing started, I asked them why they came. They said they came for jehad since we were not firm in our Islamic belief. I told them to go on to do that in their own country.`` ``Why doesn`t India go to war with Pakistan?`` asked Zia, a taxi driver. ``We don`t want the Taliban to come back.``

Ahmed Wali Masood, Afghan ambassador to Britain and brother of the late Northern Alliance commander Ahmed Shah Masood, had this to say: ``We don`t want help from our neighbours like Pakistan. We have paid a heavy price for that. We want help from India, the US and Britain.``

Re nasah (#500):

On the issue of preservation of Quranic text … here are some thoughts.

I do not doubt that Torah was also revealed by the same God Who revealed the Old Testament, Who sent revelations to Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Zaratushtra, Krishna … Who revealed religions to the Aborigines in Australia, to tribes deep in the Amazon jungles, to the nomads in the Saharan desserts, to the gypsies of the Asian planes, to the Eskimos in the Arctic, to the Tibetans in the Himalayas …

While this sounds a bit like poetic rhapsody, it is consistent with Quranic message that God has sent messengers to all the nations throughout history. These nations were isolated from each other and each had its unique set of transient needs. Owing to this reason, prophets were sent with time-specific messages fit for the needs of their specific nations.

A good example is that of the Israelites. They were subjugated by the Egyptian civilizations for almost five hundred years. By the time Moses “set them free” sometime around 1300 BC, the long subjugation had robbed the Israelites of their dignity. To address this, Torah prescribed very severe punishment for crimes … a shock treatment to revive the nation’s dignity. It advocated a justice system well described by “an eye for an eye”. This eventually hardened the hearts of the Israelites, as a result of which the teachings of Jesus softened them by the “turn the other cheek” approach. Here emphasis was on forgiveness. Reflection indicates while “an eye for an eye” method errs too much in favor of the victim, “turn the other cheek” system errs too much in favor of the criminal.

Later, Quran advocated a somewhat modified method … that the victim has the right to exact revenge, but if you (the victim) think that forgiveness will benefit the society more, then remember that Allah loves those who forgive. Here a delicate balance is struck between the rights of the victim, punishment for a crime, and forgiveness if it brings out the best results.

Interestingly enough, Torah and also the New Testament point to the coming of a future Prophet who will bring a Law for the people. The description fits the person of Prophet Mohammad who appeared later. At the times of the Prophet Mohammad, people of various faiths were expecting his arrival. This explains why Abu-Bakr accepted Mohammad as a prophet immediately. It was not blind faith … it was based upon sound understanding of the scripture.

Now comes the tragic part … i.e., the changes that occur in the scriptures with time … slowly and gradually. Reading the Bible, one cannot ignore human “fingerprints” all over the text … teachings got changed … sometimes deliberately in order to justify various self-serving causes … and sometimes as a result of incidents which resulted in the original text getting destroyed.

Why did God choose not to protect these scriptures? Perhaps because they were transient and limited to one nation or another, and were to be eventually replaced by a permanent, universal scripture anyway. If this does not sound right, then I do not have an explanation at present. But history does attest to the changes in all earlier scriptures. I do think that the scholars are in agreement that even today Quran exists as it was originally revealed. In my opinion this claim of divine protection, made by Quran ages ago, is a strong argument in favor of its divine origin.

Quran requires that other prophets and divine scriptures be accepted if one claims to be a Muslim. Since I fully believe in the true person of prophets Moses, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Zaratushtra, Confucius, and more, I consider myself indeed a true Jew, a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Parsi, a Taoist, and more. Above all, I believe in Prophet Mohammad, whose message of Quran is an umbrella that encompasses all other religions. I therefore consider myself a Muslim as well.

Sad part is that instead of appreciating the differences between various flavors of scriptures, we have gone on wars to prove that my scripture is better than yours, and therefore you must hand over your land to me. This has been the travesty of all religions. Sadly enough Islam, the religion that came to unite them all, also has suffered severely at the hands of its “followers”.

Best Regards,

Asad

sattar2 # 479

`` On the issue of authenticity of Quran....I firmly believe in its divine origin.``

Here is the mathematical code of the Quran proving

its divinity.For further details go to www.submission.org

I apologise for a very lengthy cutNpaste.

``One of the Great Miracles`` [74:35]

The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book. Every element of the Quran is mathematically composed - the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, the unique spelling of certain words, the absence or deliberate alteration of certain letters within certain words, and many other elements of the Quran besides its content. There are two major facets of the Quran`s mathematical system: (1) The mathematical literary composition, and (2) The mathematical structure involving the numbers of suras and verses. Because of this comprehensive mathematical coding, the slightest distortion of the Quran`s text or physical arrangement is immediately exposed.

SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND IMPOSSIBLE TO IMITATE

For the first time in history we have a scripture with built-in proof of divine authorship - a superhuman mathematical composition.

Any reader of this book can easily verify the Quran`s mathematical miracle. The word ``God`` (Allah) is written in bold capital letters throughout the text. The cumulative frequency of occurrence of the word ``God`` is noted at the bottom of each page in the left hand corner. The number in the right hand corner is the cumulative total of the numbers for verses containing the word ``God.`` The last page of the text, Page 372, shows that the total occurrence of the word ``God`` is 2698, or 19x142. The total sum of verse numbers for all verses containing the word ``God`` is 118123, also a multiple of 19 (118123 = 19x6217).

Nineteen is the common denominator throughout the Quran`s mathematical system.

This phenomenon alone suffices as incontrovertible proof that the Quran is God`s message to the world. No human being(s) could have kept track of 2698 occurrences of the word ``God,`` and the numbers of verses where they occur. This is especially impossible in view of (1) the age of ignorance during which the Quran was revealed, and (2) the fact that the suras and verses were widely separated in time and place of revelation. The chronological order of revelation was vastly different from the final format (Appendix 23). However, the Quran`s mathematical system is not limited to the word ``God;`` it is extremely vast, extremely intricate, and totally comprehensive.

THE SIMPLE FACTS

Like the Quran itself, the Quran`s mathematical coding ranges from the very simple, to the very complex. The Simple Facts are those observations that can be ascertained without using any tools. The complex facts require the assistance of a calculator or a computer. The following facts do not require any tools to be verified, but please remember they all refer to the original Arabic text:

1. The first verse (1:1),known as ``Basmalah,`` consists of 19 letters.

2. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ..............19 x 6.

3. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ....19 x 334. [6234 numbered verses & 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalahs) 6234+112 = 6346] Note that 6+3+4+6 =.......19.

4. The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114= 19x6.

5. From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely ...............19 suras.

6. It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+...+26+27) is 342, or .............19 x 18.

7. This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = ........19 x 18.

8. The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of .......19 words.

9. This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters .19 x 4.

10. Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of .....................................................19 verses.

11. This first chronological sura is placed atop the last ..19 suras.

12. Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals .19 x 16.

13. The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of ............19 words.

14. The first verse of the last revelation (110:1) consists of ................19 letters.

15. 14 different Arabic letters, form 14 different sets of ``Quranic Initials`` (such as A.L.M. of 2:1), and prefix 29 suras. These numbers add up to 14+14+29 = 57 = ......19 x 3.

16. The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic Initials occur is 2+3+7+...+50+68 = 822, and 822+14 (14 sets of initials) equals 836, or ................. 19 x 44.

17. Between the first initialed sura (Sura 2) and the last initialed sura (Sura 68) there are 38 un-initialed suras 19 x 2.

18. Between the first and last initialed sura there are ....19 sets of alternating ``initialed`` and ``un-initialed`` suras.

19. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, & 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.

This is a condensed summary of the Simple Facts.

CNN---Certainly Not News.

But then there are others who do bring news--Good News too!

ENJOY!

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BREAKING NEWS: BIG EXPLOSION IN MAZAR-E-SHARIF, 100s OF NORTHERN ALLIANCE MILITIA DEAD

There has been a big explosion in Mazar-e-Sharif, which has reportedly killed hundreds of General Dostum’s Northern Alliance militia. The exact number of dead has not been confirmed yet, but according to reliable sources they number in their hundreds with countless more injured. It is being assumed that this incredible operation was carried out by Taliban special forces. This fearsome attack on General Dostum`s stronghold, which has been the center of US terrorist activities, clearly marks the capability of the Taliban forces. This attack also verifies the utter falsity of the claims by the disbelievers who are continually stating that the Taliban have been defeated and that they are being routed. Rather, the reality of the situation is that the US led coalition are being hunted down by the Taliban.

NORTHERN ALLIANCE FORCES BUTCHER US AND UK SPECIAL FORCES IN KABUL

According to the latest reports, Northern Alliance forces have revolted against their American masters in Kabul. Reports state that the streets of Kabul have been littered with many US and UK special forces and personnel. Kabul is currently controlled by the Northern Alliance faction led by General Fahim, which is being backed by Russia. They had gained control of Kabul after the Talibans` peaceful withdrawal from the city. This revolt comes in the face of the oath taking ceremony of the American administered puppet government, which was bound to take place on the 22nd of December. Northern Alliance militia had been commanded by the puppet Prime Minister and American agent, Hamid Kirzai, to leave Kabul. This was a key part of the American plan to get the influence and power of the Northern Alliance out of Kabul and to install a CIA administered puppet government by the 22nd of December, backed by the so called international ‘peackeeping’ forces. In an unexpected and sweeping move, the Northern Alliance turned on its masters and savagely butchered a large number American and British forces present in the city. The exact number of US and UK casualties is yet to be confirmed.

TALIBAN REGAIN CONTROL FROM SPIN-BOLDAK TO TAKHTAPUL - GUL AGHA`S MERCENARIES ON THE RUN

It has been confirmed that Taliban forces have recaptured Takhtapul. They initiated their attack on the 19th of December and consequently regained complete control from Takhtapul to the border town of Spin-Boldak. Most of the American agent Gul Agha`s ragtag army has been routed from the area and a large number have deserted. Gul Agha`s forces mainly comprise of drug addicts and paedophiles. These people are so unpredictable that Gul Agha remains under the security of 50 US commandos all the time.

In an interview with the BBC Radio Service this week, Taliban official Mullah Abdur-Razzaq said that the Taliban forces are capable of regaining control of Afghanistan at their own accord and would only require 15 days at the most to do this. Every day that passes, Taliban forces are getting more organized and strong as their detachments are making way back to the south from the northern areas. (Kunduz, Mazar-e-Sharif, Takhar etc.)

100s of US SOLDIERS CONFIRMED DEAD AT JACOBABAD AIRBASE.

There will be no Christmas cheering for the 100s of famlies of US servicemen, whose mutilated charred bodies remain littered around Jacobabad’s airbase, accompanied with the most horrid stench. Reports have come in that the Americans have been supplied with truck loads of wooden planks to make coffins for their dead in Jacobabad. It must be pointed out that the American Government is not just lying to the whole world but also to its own people, whose sons have been butchered in the deserts and mountains of Afghanistan by the Mujahideen. The worst part is that these poor families in particular and the American public in general have been kept in total darkness about American casualties throughout this war. So many more American lives will be lost in vain for Bush`s terrorist campaign. So many American mothers will be left without their beloved sons for a war that is being fought for and bankrolled by the Zionist Jews. American families will suffer in the end and a defeated Bush Jr. will simply go back to his business, with his own family alive and well.

DESPITE SOPHISTICATED EQUIPMENT, US MILITARY INTELLIGENCE FAILS TO LOCATE USAMA BIN LADIN

KANDAHAR (Internet News): American Intelligence has failed to find Usama bin Ladin and have not succeeded in obtaining even a clue about his whereabouts after interrogating imprisoned Arab Mujahideen. At the completion of search operations for Usama bin Ladin and his companions in the Tora Bora mountains, the defence minister of the puppet government, Muhammad Faheem, stated that Usama Bin Ladin along with some of his companion had apparently left Afghanistan. The American Intelligence agencies have said that the arrested Al-Qaida members have told them nothing about Usama Bin Ladin or Ameer-ul-Mumineen. As a result of this it is thought that Usama Bin Ladin was not present in this region in the first place.Analysts say that US bombing together with their use of the latest sattelite based tracknig equipment have all failed in trying to find Usama Bin Ladin.

ARRESTED MUJAHIDEEN KNOW NOTHING ABOUT WHEREABOUTS OF AMEER-UL-MUMINEEN OR USAMA BIN LADIN

KANDAHAR (Islam News/Radio Report): The Northern Alliance have handed over two important Taliban leaders to America. According to details the vice minister of defence for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, Mulla Fazal, who had been arrested one month ago by General Dostum, broke an agreement with Mulla Fazal and arrested him along with thousands of his men. They were then handed over to US forces, whilst vice president of Taliban intelligence, Mulla Abdul Haq Waseeq, has handed to over to US forces by General Faheem. Mullah Abdul Haq Waseeq was betrayed by local commanders who handed him over to General Faheem, for the millions of US dollars promised to them by US forces. The US authorities have confirmed that Mulla Fazal and Mulla Waseeq have been shifted to the new American prison in Kandahar along with 15 Taliban and Al- Qaida members. This prison has been built at Kandahar airport. According to American authorities an eight member FBI team has reached Kandahar where they will interrogate these members about Ameer-ul-Mumineen and Usama Bin Ladin.

A very close companion to Ameer-ul-Mumineen informed Daily Islam’s correspondent by satellite phone from an undisclosed location that the US investigating team will not be successful in this interrogation with these members. He further added that Mulla Fazal had been in North Afghanistan for more than a month and he was unaware of Usama Bin Ladin and Ameer-ul- Mumineen’s whereabouts. As far as Mulla Waseeq is concerned, then he was primarily attached to the Department of Intelligence in Kabul and was never involved in planning activities or movements of Ameer-ul-Muminee. He added that Mulla Umar is safe and Insha-Allaah the Americans will never find or capture him. He added that even Mulla Umar’s close companions do not know where he is, so what help will Mulla Waseeq be?

WESTERN JOURNALISTS FAIL TO GET STATEMENTS FROM RESIDENTS OF KANDAHAR OF THEIR OWN WILL

KANDAHAR (Islam News): Nowadays more than 70 journalists are seen roaming the streets of Kandahar and they are interested in reporting anti- Taliban comments from the people, young and old. Accoridng to one of the journalists, most of the number of old people who have been questioned about the period of Taliban rule, have termed it as being the most peaceful time where their wealth and lives were protected and safe. Furthermore, the people seeminly denied the fact that Hamid Karzai could implement peace and justice in their land. After hearing all this, the journalists got into their cars and left disappointed. Hence, anything broadcasted on the international media always show anti-Taliban rhetoric and we advise the Muslims to boycott all of these media outlets, for witholding the truth and propogating falsehood is a major weapon always used to demoralise the Muslims. Will then the Muslims take heed of this?

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Re: Tahmed321 quoting the US Supreme Court, 1961

``Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in God are Buddhism...``

Tahmed321, I do not think that the Buddhists or the Dalai Lama will agree with that interpretation.

Tahmed321

I will not be reconciled with the notion that ignorance is bliss - ``Prominent`` is a estate built on time. Neither Esposito nor Armstrong became prominent overnight. Please read the information I provided you, then, if you still feel that I am being an alarmist, I will reconsider. Note I am clear that such attacks will not have any meaning to those who are strong in their ``faith`` - the intent of these attacks is to shake the foundation - only those weak in their ``faith`` (and we have all been, are, going to be weak, some time or another - the human condition- Contraction and Expansion) will experience needless injury - but maybe I am wrong and that the suffering of the injury is not ``needless``. How I envy those whose journey to faith and to reason, has not been tortuous.

Dost - several Posts

Re Quran: One of the problems associated with the Emmulative type of religiosity associated with Islam today is that it is unwilling to distinguish between Islam and Islamic knowledge. For any ``believer``, the Word and his or her religion is the ``Truth`` - This is certainly the case for Muslims - Quran is the Word of God, it cannot and will not change - however; our understanding of the word will continue to change (Kuhn and Popper - Data subject to interpretation - observer effects the observation itself - observer brings to observation presuppositions, that is a intellectual framework within which data is collected and interpretated)

(I know you don`t like reading long works, but then you can`t say you have been fair in trying to understand a particular point of view - unless of course you know and understand all there is to know and understand)

State religion?

You mean like the Queen of England is also the Defender of the faith? or like the consequences of persecution leading to ``puritans`` landing in Plymouth to setup the city of God? Islamic Republic? In each case the context is essential to understanding the occurence and development.

Manusmitri for India: So long as Hindu majority can realize it`s vision within society, it won`t happen -

Taliban ``true`` Islam? Completely unhelpful to think in such terms - perhaps types of religiousity is a more clear way to think of this - if we can identify an emulative (outward appearance of religiosity - Dogmatism) with a primarily moralizing emphasis, a religiosity primarily redemptive, gnostic, scholarly, associated with ``faith`` and with ``caritas`` and finally The mystical, experiential, associated with certitude as ``emancipation from certidue and the certainty of salvation`` - I hope I haven`t put you to sleep.

Prem

I think I know where your heart is and would like to say that in the contenxt of ``secular humanism``, not as a personal definition - but by their manifesto and the consequences of their philosophy, for institutions and the realtionships that binds us in obligations to one another - secular humanism is directed primarily against traditional religion and institutions.

(``The Good Society``, ``Habits of the Heart`` Peter L. Bergen - ``Beyond Belief`` Robert Bellah

``Cultural Analysis`` Robert Wuthnow) I think I know the point of view you are coming from, but at least read some of these to see where my head and heart is, has been)

Problem for all of us at Chowk is that given the frame of the articles we repond to, the language we use, we tend to be locked up in articulating positions that come across as rigid, where as such is not the case. I began this series by pointing what the social consequences of Dr. Hoodbhoy`s call for ``secular humanism`` as a theoretical foundation for Pakistani society - thus far no one has argued in that context, but in the context of the Taliban (basically, a trick) - so many have unthinking attached their own thinking to what ``secular humanism`` means that it is next to impossible to think of it in scientific terms. Is this any less than SELF-righteousness? that is there terms of reference, is their own values, experience and presuppositions?

Calling for the specialization of institutions of religion and goverenance is most certainly not the same as ``secular humanism``, it is not even an element of it. Secular humanism incredibly, is characterized primarily by it`s hostility to traditional institutions.

Re:Reply #: 530

nasah,

Amen to every word in your post. Let us see if Musharraf has the common sense or the intuition to realise his folly. As i write this post, LeT`s funds have been frozen by USA. JeM may follow suit.

Sridhar

25,000 Afghanis died from the recent US bombings? That turns out to be about 10,000 deaths every month, about 300 people dead every day, about a dozen people dying every hour, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day...

Amazing! While the death of even a single person is a tragegy, do people who believe these astronomical figures have any way to back them up? Anybody knows where these numbers come from?

Trillium: Id by lying if I said I eva heard of a Muslim with his finger on it like u.

I wont bother elaborating cuz the FACELESS ``editors`` on Chowk get thier kicks by deleting people`s posts. (COWARDS...)

Juss recommend some sh1t on your wavelength... Check out experiments on retro spycho kenesis and princetons number generator (This sh1t about 9/11)... Check Godfrey Higgins online book called the ``anacalypsis`` (a monumnetal work from the 19 century, available online). He breaks down the 600 year cycles (1200 BC Quetzcoatl, 500 Buddha, mahavira etc, 0 Jesus etc, 600 Muhammed...) See the mayans and dec 21st 2012, the coming age as prophesized by the hindus... Study the ancient egyptians mystery schools - spiritual geometry - pythagorus... Get at me on the email tip sometime if u want amplification...

re: sattar2

``When they would go to other restaurants/eating places in town for lunch in between classes, jamaati-type students would follow them around, telling restaurant owners not to serve these “kaffirs” and sometimes threatening the restaurant owners who tried to serve them.``

I think Musharraf is not doing enough to deal with these people. Opponents of secularism don`t want to see these inhuman results of following mullahs. Jamat-i-Islami type of organizations should be banned and their leaders tried and punished for the untold misery they have inflicted on their own fellow citizens.

re: nasah on musharaf

The best way to deal with this would be to send the indian special ops forces into Pakistan. Remember Maj. Gupta of Kargil fame - From what I hear these guys are certified rambos. How about dropping a few of them around Muzzafarabad. There are many advantages in this - These highly trained commandos would be able to wipe out the training camps, gather useful evidence, send a powerful message to the Pakistani govt. and in general might be good for the moral of indian troops who have lately been shooting down ill-equiped Kashmiri freedom fighters. It would also look better compared to shooting down unarmed recon. aircrafts.

Re: AnNY

``..i am a shia and a minority...``

Mr. Jinnah (himself a Shia) will be turning in his grave when he hears that. AnNy, I am very sorry that you felt terrorized on the street when a motorbike passed close by. I hope that you and your family remain in good health.