Muslims and The West After 11th September

Hi,

I have a few comments to make on your article. Quote, `Both are divisive, embedding within us false notions of superiority and arrogant pride that are difficult to erase. We have but one choice: the path of secular humanism, based upon the principles of logic and reason. This alone offers the hope of providing everybody on this globe with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness`.

The notion that nationalism breeds arrogance, pride and superiority is not fully supported. If you had said jingoism or chauvinism instead of nationalism I would understand where you are coming from but that is not the case- Nationalism by itself is not evil.

I understand the intensity that this article brings out but it seems to me that you are trying to apply logic to political agendas of US, which to me is too high a compliment that ‘it’ deserves.

Ucci.

Pakistan, India and the United States

2230 GMT, 011227

Dec 27,2001

Summary

http://www.stratfor.com/home/0112272230.htm

With al Qaeda and Taliban elements fleeing Afghanistan, the United States will continue to grapple with strategic problems concerning its traditional ally, Pakistan. There are significant differences between what President Pervez Musharraf has said he will do to fight terrorism, what he intends to do and what he actually can accomplish. The threat of an imminent Indo-Pakistani war may be just the lever Washington needs to move Islamabad.

Analysis

The United States has been engaged in intense debate regarding the next steps it must take to eradicate al Qaeda. Two main strategies have emerged of late. One argues that there can be no solution to the problem of Islamic attacks on the United States until the regime of Saddam Hussein is eliminated. The other strategy argues that Iraq`s role is secondary, and that the United States` primary mission is to prevent al Qaeda from establishing a command center in some other isolated country, like Yemen or Somalia.

Obviously, the strategies are not incompatible. Equally obviously, at least from STRATFOR`S point of view, the debate misses the point entirely: the next country on the agenda is Pakistan.

When planning for the Afghan campaign began immediately after Sept. 11, it was clear -- at least from a naive standpoint -- that Pakistan, which has an extensive border with Afghanistan and a long-standing strategic relationship with the United States, would be the strategic key to the campaign. The planners` first impulse was to deploy U.S. forces in Pakistan and prosecute the campaign from there. This proved impossible. Instead, U.S. ground forces had to deploy in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, while air attacks were carried out from carriers in the Arabian Sea and from strategic bombers on Diego Garcia and elsewhere. Clearly, some forces were deployed in Pakistan, but only under tight secrecy.

The need for secrecy is the key to everything. Simply put, the Pakistani government was not in a position to permit a war against the Taliban regime to be waged from its soil. This was not simply because of substantial sympathy for the Taliban in Pakistan, although that existed. Nor is it simply because Pushtuns, the foundation of Taliban power, live on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistani border, although they do.

Rather, it was because the Taliban was ultimately as much a Pakistani phenomenon as it was Afghan. In a sense, the Taliban was a Pakistani construct, designed to conclude -- on terms acceptable to Pakistan -- the civil war that raged in Afghanistan following the Soviet withdrawal. Pakistan feared the ascendance of the Northern Alliance as well as other groups in Afghanistan, and saw in the Taliban a government that was congenial to Pakistan both strategically and ideologically. The ISI, Pakistan`s intelligence service, was in many ways the godfather of the Taliban government.

As the Taliban government provided al Qaeda with a secure operational base, the United States continued to parse the issue of Pakistan and Afghanistan. It is inconceivable that the Taliban would have been able to develop its relationship with al Qaeda without the knowledge of Pakistan`s intelligence services and government, and it is difficult to imagine that they would not have given at least implicit approval. However, the United States was not prepared to frame the issue as an Afghan-Pakistani issue -- only as an Afghan problem fundamentally distinct from Pakistan.

This policy continued after Sept. 11 and throughout the campaign, despite the clear limits Pakistan placed on cooperation with the United States. Washington clearly and rationally wanted to contain the Afghan campaign. It placed sufficient pressure on President Pervez Musharraf to force him to remove senior officials who were too closely aligned with the Taliban, to permit at least some basing of U.S. forces in Pakistan and to publicly commit himself to use Pakistani forces along the frontier to prevent Taliban forces from crossing into Pakistan.

The United States recognized that much of this was cosmetic. Support for the Taliban ran deep in the government and deeper in the country. The U.S. forces based in Pakistan were hardly strategic. Finally, whatever he promised, there were significant differences between what Musharraf said, what he actually intended to do and what he ultimately was able to do.

The United States carefully refrained from pressing the issue, afraid that excessive pressure would topple Musharraf and throw Pakistan either into chaos or into a fundamentalist dictatorship. Or if excessive pressure threatened Musharraf`s survival, he might simply reverse course and turn against the United States. In any case, the United States adopted a minimax policy -- it demanded the most it could get within the limits of what Islamabad could deliver, and it lived with the three differences: what was said, what was actually intended, what could really be delivered.

The manner in which the Afghan war concluded has suddenly rendered this policy untenable. While the Taliban has abandoned the cities, it continues to exist, both in alliances with particular warlords and in its own right. Where it exists most intensely, in fact, is in Pakistan, among Taliban sympathizers as well as among hundreds or thousands of Taliban fighters that have crossed into Pakistan during the past month. A very few have been very publicly apprehended, but most have gone to ground -- some protected by Pakistani forces.

Far more important than the fate of the Taliban is the fate of al Qaeda`s senior commanders, including Osama bin Laden, and of its fighters. It is becoming increasingly obvious that neither the Taliban`s high command nor al Qaeda`s has been captured. The release of a new videotape that appears to have been made in the past few weeks, and perhaps as recently as last week, dealt a blow to speculation that bin Laden and the others were killed at Tora Bora. It was always problematic that bin Laden would have chosen to travel from Kandahar to Tora Bora in the chaos that followed his last known taping. This would be not only dangerous but pointless. It was far more likely that he went directly to Pakistan, where supporters hid him and may still be doing so.

Whether bin Laden is in Pakistan or has traveled elsewhere, it is clear that many of his forces as well as Taliban leaders went to Pakistan and that the vast majority of those remain. In other words, apart from native support for the Taliban and al Qaeda, elements from Afghanistan are now in Pakistan and operating under the protection of, if not the government, certainly elements of the government and powerful political forces.

If we are correct in this, then the problem the United States faces in destroying al Qaeda does not concern Somalia, Yemen or Iraq, but Pakistan. Ideally, the United States would like Musharraf to use his security and military forces to destroy al Qaeda`s forces and hand senior leaders over to the United States. Certainly, this is something that Musharraf has assured the United States he would do. However, it is not clear that he is in a position to deliver on his promise -- it is not clear his orders are being obeyed. Nor, frankly, is it clear that he wishes to see these orders carried out. Certainly, he wants to placate the United States, but there is a huge gap between saying he will act, acting, and acting effectively.

A case in point is the Dec. 13 attack on India`s parliament by gunmen, which the U.S. government says were Islamic militants based in Pakistan. There are two explanations for the attack. The first is that Musharaff knew about plans for the attack and sanctioned it. The second is that he neither knew of nor sanctioned the attack. In a real sense, it doesn`t matter which it was. Either explanation raises serious questions about the course of Afghanistan.

All this creates a strategic crisis for the United States. Its fundamental goal is to defend its own territory against al Qaeda attacks and the global destruction of al Qaeda. In our view, al Qaeda has taken refuge in Pakistan -- historically an ally of the United States, and a country that poses a military challenge on an order of magnitude beyond that posed by Afghanistan. Launching a military campaign in Pakistan is possible but requires much greater resources than in Afghanistan, as well as the destruction of Pakistan`s nuclear capability. Rather than use direct military action, the United States would prefer a more subtle lever.

The attack on India`s parliament provides precisely that lever. Obviously, the shootout was as intolerable for India as a similar attack on Congress would be for the United States. India must react. But even apart from that, India sees itself as having an unprecedented opportunity to deal not only with the Kashmir issue but with the entire issue of the nature and future of Pakistan.

Pakistan`s alliance with the United States has placed severe limits on how far India could go. However, a profound schism is developing between Washington and Islamabad as post-Sept. 11 events evolve. Clearly, both sides are doing everything to avert an open breach -- but equally clearly, if it becomes undeniable that Pakistan is harboring al Qaeda elements, a break becomes inevitable. At that moment, India would have the opening it has awaited for 50 years. The United States would be not be able to refrain from acting against Pakistan, nor could it act efficiently without Indian support and involvement. India was eager to help from the beginning; now the United States would have no choice but to accept that help.

The United States does not want an Indo-Pakistani war, but the threat of such a war is precisely what Washington needs to move Islamabad. For Pakistan, the threat of a war with India in which the United States either stood to one side or actively participated is the worst possible nightmare. By allowing the specter to rise, Washington has given Musharraf an opportunity to become more forthcoming. If he is in control but insincere, he is being shown the abyss and can change course. If he is sincere but not in control, he can show the abyss to Islamic fundamentalists in his government and bring them under control.

The problem is that many of the fundamentalists would actually welcome a war and even defeat by India. Their goal is to radicalize the Islamic world by demonstrating that Christians, Hindus and Jews have formed a vast alliance designed to crush Islam. A combined U.S.-Indian attack would be exactly what would be needed to demonstrate this to the world. The destruction of Pakistan`s nuclear capability -- whether by nuclear or conventional weapons -- would further illustrate the point. It is therefore no accident that Islamic fundamentalists struck India at what would normally be considered the worst possible moment. From their point of view, it was the best possible moment to act.

This indicated that Musharraf may not be able to gain control of the situation, even if he wanted to. Thus, he visited Beijing in late December. China has historically been an enemy of India and an ally of Pakistan. Beijing has been extremely cautious since Sept. 11, but it remembers both the EP-3 spy plane incident and U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld`s redefinition of strategy toward the Pacific and against China prior to Sept. 11. Beijing is happy to see the United States diverted. It would not be happy to see India emerge without a threat on its western flank. Hence, Musharaff had a very cordial visit to Beijing.

At this point, the strategic imperative of defeating al Qaeda begins to intersect with Eurasian geopolitics. It is one thing to take Afghanistan apart, quite another to do the same with Pakistan. Afghanistan`s fate is of little significance to great powers. The fate of Pakistan matters to China, among others. At the same time, if al Qaeda is using Pakistan as a base of operations or even as a transit point and the Pakistani government can`t or won`t do anything decisive and effective about it, this strikes at a fundamental U.S. interest and cannot be tolerated.

The United States is, therefore, in the midst of a veiled crisis over Pakistan. It is an odd crisis in that Washington, fearing the consequences of a public confrontation, is trying very hard to maintain the fiction that Pakistan has been fully cooperating in the battle against al Qaeda, that it is acting effectively against the Taliban and al Qaeda and that its forces would certainly arrest senior al Qaeda leaders if they could catch them. At the same time, the United States is quietly showing Pakistan the abyss in the hopes that the plausible fiction of U.S.-Pakistani relations might thereby become reality.

The problem is that in Pakistan, there are those who prefer an open breach with the United States to accommodation. Even if we assume that Musharraf is not one of these elements, it is not clear that he can control them. If he can`t control them, the United States is faced with an extraordinary dilemma -- to go into Pakistan and get al Qaeda itself. It cannot do this without India, and India will not move unless Pakistan`s nuclear weapons are destroyed. It is not clear that U.S. precision-guided munitions are sufficient for a task that will tolerate no failure.

The rest follows logically.

Re nasah (#580):

I agree with you that Muslims need to deal with their insecurities before they can progress. They have gone too far trying to prove that they are true followers of Islam. They have patronized Islam way too much, while nursing an ever annoying “in your face” attitude towards others. This needs to end before they can be taken seriously by the world, before they can hope to bring about peace and progress in the world. Islam needs to be “de-politicized”, to begin with. Mixing religion with politics has always led to violent fanaticism, and this is one of the major ailments the Muslims world suffers from.

We seem to agree in what ails the Muslim world, but differ in our approaches towards its treatment. You are advocating a western-style secularism as a solution, while I am advocating going back to the message of Quran to draw on divine guidance from the Almighty.

One would wonder … if Christians have failed miserably in understanding the scripture correctly for the past two thousand years, and Muslims also have failed here for the past one thousand years, it would be absurd for one to advocate going back to the scripture. With so many sects in Islam as it is, and ever-present sectarian violence, politics, and “fatwas of kuffr”, going back to religion will only create havoc and result in more bloodshed. This is a legitimate concern, and needs to be addressed carefully to do justice to the matter.

Here the discussion takes a sharp turn, mainly due to my belief in Ahmadi-Islam. The current mess of the Muslim world was prophesied by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) when he mentioned that in later days mosques will be full of people, but Islam would have left people’s hearts … when the Muslim clergy will be as corrupt as the Jewish clergy was in the days of Issa-ibne-Marriam. Quran also hints at such times when the Muslim nations will be at a low point and would be eclipsed by the other nations of the world … when Islam will be spiritually dead.

Allah has always sent prophets to revive nations. These prophets purge religion of the corruption that has set in and to rejuvenate its teachings. They enjoy divine support and bring to light the truthfulness and beauties of the teachings of religion. As an Ahmadi-Muslim, I believe in one such prophet, the person of Mirza Sahib of Qadian.

Mirza Sahib is the long awaited Promised Messiah (prophesied by the dear Prophet of Islam), the Imam Mahdi of his time (the 14th century Hijri), and a prophet of God. As Ahmadi-Muslims, we believe that salvation of mankind lies in going back to pristine and original teachings of Quran, and to practice the religion of Allah with extreme love and compassion for all of Allah’s creations. I believe this is the only recipe for the salvation of mankind.

I have earlier pointed out the pitfalls of western secularism. A lot of material progress has been made, but at the price of the world getting armed to the teeth. Humanity is on the brink of an unthinkable disaster. It is only a matter of time when the unimaginable sequence of events is triggered off, resulting in death and destruction of millions. Quran hints at the possibility of such an event … and sadly enough we are going down the path of fulfilling this dreadful prophecy.

I firmly believe that there indeed is an Almighty Allah, who revealed Quran for the benefit of the mankind. He will continue to breathe life in His people by sending prophets as the decline of mankind sets in. Believing in one such recent prophet (Mirza Sahib), I am betting on revival of Islam at the hands of Ahmadiyyat. The world will see the true beauties of Quran being put into practice in the name of humanity and in the name of the love of mankind. It is only then that true progress is made by a nation … materially, as well as spiritually.

Having said that, I must point out that religion must be practiced as a personal matter, and not shoved in the faces of others. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) once reportedly pointed to his chest while stating “… taqwa resides here”. Freedom of thought cannot be stifled in the name of religion (as being done in the name of Blasphemy Laws, for example). In Islam, there is no place for persecution of minorities … no concept of “jihad” as being practiced by the fundamentalist element nowadays. It advocates accountability for one’s actions and thoughts. Without this sense of accountability, no laws, no legal codes can bring about reformation of human conduct. When practiced correctly, religion maintains one’s focus on betterment of the mankind, while reminding him that he indeed has to meet his Maker some day. It is only then that material progress can be made which truly serves the cause of humanity, without posing threats to the survival of the mankind.

Asad

Dear Fatimah:

You’ve asked some valid questions.

Religion by itself is not “bad” for the human being – and is not a point of contention here -- religion may even be a biological necessarily for an early thinking animal with a left and a right brain.

It may be the psycho/social lynchpin that organized the earliest human civilizations -- and was responsible for much of their progression that created law abiding societies and built magnificent monuments – all over the world.

What is being questioned here is – its blatant use in today`s politics, state affairs, jurisprudence, economics and warfare – and its use in creating blind fanaticism.

Israel is not a good example – Isreael is beset with troubles – and most of its troubles ARE due to mixing of religion with politics and real estate business.

Israel is in an unenviable position of moral turpitude with the never ending military killings of children -– mostly due to its use of a 5 thousand year old religion to claim someone else’s courtyard -- as THEIR HOLY places –

The conflict -- that Isreal is in because of this dichotomy -- by every indications -- will continue to bleed Israel morally ethically and militarily – despite the knowledge and the use of laser guided bombs to assassinate individual Palestinians.

Israel is trying the impossible with a built-in mechanism for conflict – to eat the cake and have it too – to have a modern state and also claim legitimacy over other people`s lands and lives through an ancient archaic idea of HOLY this and Holy that -- and so are its Muslim Imitators – OBL, his Al Qaeda, Hamas and the Jihadis.

regards

Dear Sattar:

You write:



````A Muslim on the other hand is a completely different animal. He will constantly refer to Quranic verses, ahadith, and sunnah to draw guidance or to justify his acts.````(sattar)

Indeed we use Quran -- not only in our social, political, medical, jurisprudence, scientific, commercial matters -- but in murder as well.

We Muslims badly wish to go back to the “golden era`` of medieval Islam” -- when every aspect of life was run by Quranic verses, hadith and Sunnah -- and claim the unclaimable -- that by going backward Muslims can go forward.

Yet we Muslims are in some ways not so different from those rightwing orthodox Christians that you write about:

````Christian groups in the western world that strictly follow the Bible are also severely backward and regressive in their thinking, even nowadays. These groups include the KKK, the anti-abortion activists known for bombing clinics and attempting to murder doctors, the “white militia” involved in Oklahoma City bombing (“Timothy McVeigh” group), the “religious right” known for its xenophobia and segregationist politics.````(sattar)

It shows what happens to even modern day Christians when they choose to strictly follow a two thousand year old book.

As to the remedy you are on the target when you say -- ````In the western world, besides a small segment of the population, mainstream population does not view Bible as having any significance in their lives````.

That`s how the West climbed out of their religious morass -- 100 years ago -- and this is exactly how the Muslims have to climb out of the dungeon of despair that they find themselves in --today.

We are ``only`` 100 years behind the West in understanding the dangers of mixing religion with politics and State.



To be where the West is today -- this is what we Muslims have to do -- we have to remove Islam from the affairs of State -- NOT carry Islam in our sleeves -– NOT act like an immature, insecure, attention starved, exhibitionist KID -- begging to be reassured -- by showing his few worn out -- (Pedarum Sultan Bood) - Islamic marbles – to Western ADULTS for approval and affirmation -- and if the Westerners don’t pay attention -– NOT threaten them with Jihad.

Do we see many mainstream Christians doing this sort of thing -- declaring from the soap box day and night -- as to -- what a bunch of good and great Christians they are -- or naming their country Christian Republic of the United States?

The question is – do we have to bring Islam in every aspect of our lives? – really -- do we have to name -- every dictator Islamic -– every power grabber Islamic -- every Constitution Islamic -- every country Islamic -- every politician Islamic -- every political party Islamic – every army Islamic – every war Islamic -- every bomb Islamic – every missile Islamic –– every police Islamic -- every criminal Islamic -- every school Islamic – every teacher Islamic -- every medicine Islamic – every doctor Islamic – every science Islamic – every scientist Islamic – every bank Islamic -- every banking system Islamic -- -- every lawyer Islamic -- every law Islamic –- every clothing Islamic – every scarf Islamic – every burlap bag over a woman`s head Islamic -- every food Islamic -- every burp Islamic –- every sneeze Islamic – how many times in the day we Muslims have to use the word Islamic – Islamic – Islamic.

Don’t we ever get tired of repeating the woed Islamic - how much reassurance do we need day and night? – the world IS getting tired of the word Islamic to a point of open hostility -– why can’t we get tired of parroting the same word over and over again -- like a broken record.

The fact is that -- unless -- we make our Islam an item of private and personal choice -- secularize it and confine it inside our hearts and masjids -– and NOT mix it with our political, governmental, judicial, military and economic lives –- we are destined to be thrown into the dustbin of the unforgiving history –- as a failed community – living in the past -- unable to reform a religion and a society -- that should have been much easier to reform than any world religion including Christianity.

regards

Re nasah (#576):

As I have understood it, material progress of the western nations is not helped by modifications in the bible. Actually, they have divorced religion from rationality, and completely separated “faith” from their daily lives. A westerner does not usually refer to the scripture to decide how to handle various mundane issues.

A Muslim on the other hand is a completely different animal. He will constantly refer to Quranic verses, ahadith, and sunnah to draw guidance or to justify his acts. There is nothing wrong with this, but it is critical that scripture be correctly understood. Otherwise it becomes basis for absurdities and violence.

Christian groups in the western world that strictly follow the Bible are also severely backward and regressive in their thinking, even nowadays. These groups include the KKK, the anti-abortion activists known for bombing clinics and attempting to murder doctors, the “white militia” involved in Oklahoma City bombing (“Timothy McVeigh” group), the “religious right” known for its xenophobia and segregationist politics. The Third Reich and the Nazi Germany ideologies were based upon the teachings of the Bible. The main problem is not with the Bible, but with these groups misinterpreting it.



In the western world, besides a small segment of the population, mainstream population does not view Bible as having any significance in their lives. The scientific and the technology communities have a visible atheistic/agnostic or a “don’t-care” bend in their thought process.

Is religion good, or bad for the society? In my opinion, religion, if understood properly, yields the best results. Early history of Islam is a good example, where Muslims contributed heavily in the fields of medicine, mathematics, engineering, and more. Second best alternative is secularism, which is quite visible in the present-day western societies. The worst alternative is to incorrectly interpret religion, mix it with politics, and shove it down people’s throats. Recent world events attest to this disaster.

The “second best” approach of western secularism has its problems. Human greed and will to power knows no bounds. Without a sense of the divine in our lives, our animalistic desires get the better of us. Crime rate, teenage pregnancies, substance abuse are constantly rising in the west. However, a lot of these problems have been covered up by the economic success of these nations. But it is interesting that signs of economic strains in the society are starting to become visible … at individual levels as well as national level, here in the USA also.

As a result of human greed and struggle for the control of resources, we see that nations have armed themselves to the teeth. The world is on the brink of nuclear and biological warfare. If ever such a war breaks out, millions will get killed in a matter of a few minutes. The prospects are indeed very scary. On two separate occasions we have witnessed the havoc atomic bombs can play. A-bombs made nowadays are 100+ times more deadly than the ones dropped on Japan to end the Second World War.

Western nations have more or less completely divorced religion from their lives. As a result they have made great material progress … but at what price? I do not doubt that the path the world is going on will lead us to massive death and destruction. It is just a matter of time when some lunatic presses the red button and starts the unthinkable.

I am the opinion that getting the religion “right” is the only viable, long-term solution for the mankind. All other paths will eventually lead to destruction. But then again … I happen to have a religious bend in my thinking …

Asad

Dear Sattar mian:

You write:

``Bible has undergone changes at the hands of its followers, who at times modified the scripture for self-serving interests.``

And just look where the Christians with their ``timely`` modifications of bible -- and where we are with the ``permanence`` of our Quran! -- how come?

Are you sure ``permanence`` is necessarily a blessing?

Anny (#529):

It is saddening to read your post about the persecution of Shias in Pakistan. It is disheartening to see people being singled out and harassed in the name of the very religion which was revealed to serve the humanity.

As for the situation in Pakistan, I wish I had a good answer. There are a few bad apples that spoil it for everyone. There are a great many people in Pakistan full of understanding and compassion for others. I do hope and pray for the betterment of our nation … not only for those being persecuted, but also for the few misguided ones who perpetuate this cycle of violence and hatred. My own efforts here in northern California are focused on spreading the message of Islam … by holding “information tables” in local malls, displaying Islamic literature, answering peoples questions about “jihad” and Islam, organizing “interfaith conference” where people of various faiths can have a dialogue and better understand each other. This keeps me busy with activities I deeply cherish … creating harmony between all people … from varied nations, religions, and ethnicity.

Sorry about the delayed response …I got tied up with some household activities. Through the tough times that your community is experiencing in Pakistan, do not lose hope and continue to pray to Allah and ask for His help and blessings. He surely listens to His people, especially the innocent ones who have been wronged. I wish you, your family, and your community my heartfelt support and best wishes and will remember you all in my prayers.

Warm wishes and best regards,

Asad

shammisahab:

understood Sir- and if youd just call me anNy

Re nasah (#555):

“Permanence” may not necessarily be divine. Here, the point I am trying to make is that Quranic claim of “permanence”, which has remained fulfilled so far against all odds, is strong evidence of divine support, and thus its divine origins.

“Permanence” is important from another aspect also. Quran, as originally revealed, is the Word of Allah … rich with divine guidance and wisdom. If Quran loses its “permanence” and gets changed by humans, the message will eventually mislead the followers, since human understanding and motives are far from being perfect.

Bible has undergone changes at the hands of its followers, who at times modified the scripture for self-serving interests. One shocking example is the change in the Old Testament that resulted in Prophet Lot consorting with his own daughters (Genesis, chapter 19). This is but one of many examples of human intervention in the scripture. Such changes seem to be deliberately introduced to validate some of the harmful and damaging customs prevalent in the society. Imagine the impact on the followers and their norms when the scripture validates such horrible acts by associating them with divine prophets. The “holy” scripture is not so holy any more. The Book sent for guidance of the followers is now bound to lead them astray, to horrid and most damaging customs. Therefore, “permanence” in the form of protection from human interpolation is a blessing, a safety net, for our own benefits.

On the issue of frail, human attributes, associated with God, here are some thoughts. It is not possible for a human, being imperfect, to intellectually completely grasp the true attributes of Allah. Therefore, Allah is explained in Quran in terms that may be understood by humans. Same hold for concepts of heaven and hell, one described as gardens with abundant fruits and streams, and the other as a raging fire. Following arguments will illustrate this point further …

Humans evolved from pre-biotic organisms over billions of years. This is consistent with Quranic teachings, and scientific discoveries. These pre-biotic organisms were probably similar to the green algae growing in humid environments. It would be been impossible for this algae to “imagine” that one day it will evolve into a highly complex being … with a very wide range of emotions. These beings will discover quantum mechanics and Relativity, while getting irritated when the morning newspaper is delivered late … some will bear a lifetime of pain and suffering and yet forgive, some will send man to the moon, and some will send thousands to their graves over minor disputes. The algae simply could not have grasped such concepts. Humans are still evolving, and will probably evolve a lot more over the next billions of years. We cannot imagine what humans will be like in later stages of development. If we extrapolate on this principle, it is not difficult to see that humans cannot fully grasp the true attributes of God either (if God exists in one’s opinion, that is).

A few more points worth considering …

Humans have evolved from very basic organisms. Adam was not the first human created instantaneously out of clay … that is only a metaphor. Adam, who lived approx. 6000 years ago was one of the first modern humans intellectually evolved enough to grasp basic divine commandments. Therefore he is considered the “first” prophet. There is a hadith that indicates there being a hundred thousand “Adams”. Perhaps this indicates that during each stage of development, there was an “Adam”, the first of its kind. Perhaps some sort of divine commandments have been revealed to humans in each stage of development. If this indeed is the case, it should be expected that humans will someday enter a new phase of development. Then there would be another “Adam”, another sequence of divine revelations, and another “Quran”.

One more point worth considering is that … Quran hints at the existence of other life forms in the universe. Quran also hints that contact between these beings and humans will take place at a “prescribed” point in time, as “willed” by Allah. Allah is the Lord of all worlds, as proclaimed in Quran. In all likelihood these “beings” have their own system of evolution and development … they have their own “Adams” and their own sequence of divine revelations.

So the “permanence” of Quran should be understood in a relative context. It is “absolutely” permanent, in a “relative” sort of way, as I have been able to understand thus far.

I hope some of this makes some sense to the reader. Best regards,

Asad

AnNY Sahiba:

What I meant was that `Shia as a minority` description would be anathema to Jinnah who once described the Muslims of India as a `nation`, not a `minority`. Any suggestions that this `nation` would have a `minority` of Shias would be very disturbing to him, especially in light of his Aug. 11, `47 speech. If he knew that Shias were going to go around calling themselves minorities in Pakistan, the very thought would be revolting to him. If you don`t believe me, check with YLH.

Dost-Mittar #562

tahmed321 # 561

Thanks, my friend. But for some sane voices like yours, it would be impossible to put up with foul-mouthed bumpkins, quick-to-offend bird-brains, and fire-and-brimstone buffoons who have come to populate Chowk in increasing numbers.

Regards.

Trillium: http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/menus/ancienthmenu.html

This has a little bit on higgins and some other stuff. His book was available online, but now i cant find it. He`s great with etemology but his info on Islam was quite poor. Like many scholars, he believed true islam was kept alive by the ahle-bait (shi`as) and he`s probably right...

Esoterics like Bacon and newton studied the DNA and believed the twin snakes represented the duality of life (man/woman, good/evil Zarathustra, Allah/Iblis, magnetism etc). U will notice that almost ALL religions began with the worship of a feminine Goddess (everything I had on Allat was deleted...) Almost simultaneously, all religions replaced the feminine God with the masculine (the stupidest example is in the King james Bible where they replaced a quote ``suc.k the breats of the Queen`` with King, LOL). If u look at the original Hebrew God ELOHIM it is the feminine singluar ELOH, with the masculine plural HIM. The original cross was called the egyptian ankh which had an ``O`` halfway on top of an ``I`` (the male and female sex organs). This symbolized creation and the balance of opposites, good/bad.

The school of HERMETICS taught EQUILIBRIUM (the Balance of the male/female). The protagonist of the ``magic flute`` (an egyptian play) aimed for balance, this was the story behind mozarts composition of the same name. They valued the CAT cuz it was passive like women and aggressive like men (The whole thing about 9 lives come from nine being the # of balance).

What im saying is focus on the feminine, with the goal of balancing it with the masculine. This is why there is no diety but the ONE - the two are really one) - yin/yang. I cant speak anymore, im trying to learn about sacred geometry thee days and dont know where to start - islam would be a good place...

Sattar: The thing about islamic law was brilliant!

``Shooting down your ``unarmed`` military aircraft was payback for the 1965 shooting down of a Cessna carrying the Chief Minister of Gujarat.``

Hmmm.. This is amusing indeed - So the Pakistanis should expect the ``surgical strikes`` and other ``punitive measures`` around 2035.

Personally I think the special ops should be sent to Pakistan now. That`s the need of the hour. We want to see the brave Indian commandos in action, besides that jackass advani will tell you that its also the right thing to do ``morally``.

Lucy #302 As a new poster (albeit a self-confessed longtime lurker) on chowk you certainly deserve the benefit of the doubt. However, your first two posts (the second basically repeating the same two points as the first one) are not encouraging, as follows:

a. you write ``As I have said, most Chowk posters produce manure. You are the only exception - a real gem amongst them.``

Such a broad generalization and condemnation is worthless (or ``manure``, to use your pleasant wording). There are a variety of viewpoints, depths of thinking, humor or lack thereof, and so on in chowk posts (say on this board). You may agree or disagree with them, you may condemn specific things in individual posts, but you cant sit on a pedestal and grandly past such judgements.

b. you write to shankar ``Do share more about yourself. I am very curious to know more about you.``

I like shankar`s posts, and think he is balanced and courageous and does not care for personal insults which are sometimes directed towards him. And I have noted that on several occassions. But I dont think most chowk posters come here to learn more about the personal lives of strangers. Nevertheless, since that is what you seem interested in, I hope shankar will do you a favor and provide you his email address so you can get to know him better. Since clearly the issues being discussed on chowk hold no meaning to you, and clearly you have nothing to contribute other than meaningless condemnations of chowks posts.

Prem #556 ``I truly wish I had a Pakistani friend who would help me present facts to Indians like you too, but unfortunatley I don`t. ``

You called? Paki friend at your service :-)

As for Audio-Video-etc., I dont think you can reason with people like him.

sigalph235---557

No my friend,I`m not under any illusions at all.

The Pakistani `geadership`(sic) with all its delusions about being `modern`,advanced` & `liberal` blah blah is getting back what it deserves--& should get even more!

If Indians are being welcomed by God-fearing practising muslims of Afghanistan then there must be some merit in it & the Indians must have earned it.Why a good Indian should not be preffered to a debauched & munafique Pakistani Muslim?

``Muslim aaeen hua kaffir tO milay hoor O qusoor``?

---- meaning:If a kaafir adopts the tenets of Islam(in the secular sense) then the rewards are there for him too--- a la Qura`an.This is not only good theory but we see the manifestation of it in our daily observations.

Maka`faat e amul is there for every one to see.One can never run away from the Truth until some toll is paid at the turnpikes.Wearing suit & tie,being invited to the masters` house(white),and pretending to be export material demeans not only the geader(sic) but also the nation.

Unless Pakistanis free occupied Pakistan(by its army,bureaucracy,& westernised elite)they have no right to talk about freedom of anykind anywhere.

__________________________________________________

Your anguish & mine and that of so many on chowk is no different except that the currencies of conversations have become devalued by alien interferences.

Sometimes I picture ourselves like the elephant seals(walruses?),blubber full,soaking the sun & water on the beach,making gurgling threatening trumpet-calls,dragging ourselves awkwardly only to pile-up on each other...and then everything is the same again.

What else we have to do?

__________________________________________________

Re semipreciousme (#513):

One of the biggest reasons of anti-Ahmadiyya sentiment in the mullahs is Mirza Sahib’s claim of prophethood. However, the claim of being the Promised Messiah is also a cause of conflicts, since the mullah thinks that the Messiah Issa-ibne-Marriam exists in flesh and blood in the sky and is supposed to descend down to earth in the “later days”.

Ahmadi-Muslims believe that Quran, the perfect, complete, final Word of Allah has been fully revealed through Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). We also believe that Mohammd (pbuh) was the last prophet who brought Law from Allah. However, as people go astray, and teachings of Islam get corrupted, Allah will continue to raise prophets. These prophets will not bring a new law, rather they will bring people back to the original, pristine teachings of Islam. Also, prophethood can only be attained through following the message of Quran, and by holding Hazrat Mohammad (pbuh) in utmost respect, as the Ultimate prophet of Allah.

This is how Ahmadi-Muslims interpret “seal of prophethood” mentioned in Quran, Surah-e-Ahzab. It means the ultimate authority in Prophets, one with the highest status, the bearer of the “official document” (i.e. Quran), the “seal” that validates the message of other prophets.

This meaning of “seal” is very clear from the context of the preceding verses, and this can be easily shown. My understanding of Quran is that here “seal” cannot be understood as “last”, since that would raise contradictions in Quran where coming of other messengers is hinted at, in at least two other places.

Best regards,

Asad

Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 506

[digit # 504

``The Immaculate Conception refers to the birth of Mary, and not of Christ. Not that it matters, but I just thought I`d bring it up.``

No. It refers to the conception, BY MARY, of Jesus, without all that vulgar genital in-out stuff. Hence immaculate. In fact hence immaculate conception - note: not immaculate birth.]

Zafar, Digit is right and you are wrong. However, it is a common mistake by most people who assume that since Jesus was conceived of a virgin, it was his conception that was immaculate.

Go to the nearest Catholic church in Sydney and ask the priest there.

PS. You guys ever read the Far Eastern Economic Review? In the Traveller`s Tales section, it was once reported that in Manila, there is a clinic called the Immaculate Conception Birth Control Clinic!

Ref rajanjua

#: 535

[It would also look better compared to shooting down unarmed recon. aircrafts.]

Shooting down your ``unarmed`` military aircraft was payback for the 1965 shooting down of a Cessna carrying the Chief Minister of Gujarat. At least, our jets got a multi-million dollar military aircraft and 16 Pak naval officers as opposed to the pathetic Pak Air Force which got a single-engine Cessna with its jet fighters.

By the way, we did it in the same geographic region.... Gujarat. You may not get the message but the Pak Air Force definitely did.

re: banjara & langoor rajanjua

yeah, and the kooran also had quantum mechanics figured out...people were just too stupid to see it...deluded SOBs...

Prem # 549

``PS: Where have you been hiding? Don`t see much of you these days.``

I am here but as Faiz said:

Aur bhi gham hain zamanay mein muhabbat ke siva

Dont recall having interacted with you but thanks

for asking:)

regards.

PS:Not being very knowledgable about religion,this

site was very impressive hence the cutNpaste.

Shammi sahab

I should clarify a few things- I think i gave you the wrong impression. Shias are NOT discriminated in Pakistan on the state level nor at the individual level. Therefore rest assured, Mr.jinnah will not be indulging in any ghulaatian in his grave:) I have as good a chance of getting into a school, university, multinational, restaurant for food and civil service as any Sunni in my country. The terror i felt was for my father, who the men on the bike were looking at most curiously (i think it might have been the ferociously white beard and pipe:)) and those days the assasinations were being carried out by men on bikes who knew exactly what they were doing. They were familiar with the routes and targetted precisely the shia professionals and scholars, which is why i was freaked...my point was to say that this petrified me- I who can turn around and smack straight across the face anyone who dares to say anything demeaning to me because of my faith, I who can without any fear wear things that show my faith openly (black clothes in moharram, the taveez we wear around the neck etc)..That the ahmedi`s are as good as dead were they to do any of the above, that theyre discriminated on the basis of their religion by the state is what my point was...i think i was trying to convey to asad how i (maybe) understand more than a few others the feeling of intense fear and anger at someone being able to do this to us on the basis of what we believe in...its just not fair...pls know that this was in no way a complaint against my country...it has provided me, as a shia, a minority in the muslim population, the freedom to do whatever i wish to do

thank you terribly, for your wishes..that was a lovely lovely thing to say

re hamzad afaqui 541

Dude, don`t you guys get it? In spite of your fairy tales and all, Pakistan and Pakistanis are considered dirt by normal Afghans. You guys should be worried about why staunchly Muslim Afghans shower welcomes on Indians and are ready to kill Pakistan`s diplomats.

Pakistan and its ummah bretheren were on the wrong side. The sooner these mercenaries are mercilessly eradicated from Afghanistan the better. I am upset that there is even talk of the Coalition granting these thugs Geneva Convention rights; rights that these animals wouldn`t bestow on anybody if the situation was reversed.

What do you expect us to do? Tune out CNN(not that its the greatest TV) and tune into PTV and Al-Jazeera? PLease...

Face it. In Afghanistan, the Pakistani Islamist complex has lost four-square. And this is only the beginning. Those governments who even evince sympathy for the bad guys will and ought to be punished. And if that means a few Daisy Cutters here and there, praise the Lord!

audio-video-radio # 545

Thank you for the compliment. Yes, I am a sympathizer of Muslims. You should be too. For, almost a fifth of our own people are Muslims, most as patriotic, many of them more patriotic than you and me.

Perhaps the unparodonable crime your hyperventilating little brain was trying to pin on me was sympathizing with Pakistanis. Unfortunately for you, I gladly accept that accusation too. Unlike you, I neither blame all Pakistani people for terrorism in India nor do I shrink from telling Pakistanis the hard truth as it is. That, ofcourse, is beyond the comprehension of one-sided, one-eyed morons like you.

I truly wish I had a Pakistani friend who would help me present facts to Indians like you too, but unfortunatley I don`t.

Dear Sattar:

Thanks for your two scholarly posts.

My question – why “permanence” should necessarily be DIVINE? -- if anything it is the “impermanence” -- that should be DIVINE – remember -- only CHANGE -- is “permanent” in the universe!

The wish for permanence -- in a definitely impermanent world – is purely a man-made – much desired but futile emotion – like chasing the rainbow.

Now we can’t have the rainbow of permanence in our lives – so we gave it to the DIVINE.

And yet, after giving HIM the unworldly trait of “permanence” – we the MAN/ WOMAN gave HIM all the wordly attributes of medieval human being – the praise loving egotistical slave master – who wants everybody to bow before him – is very unhappy with those who don’t -- very unpredictable – sometimes forgiving – other times unforgiving – the builder – the destroyer – the vengeful torturer -– and the benevolent prize giver –- a GOD -- with all the weaknesses and the strengths of an emotionally frail human.

The Christians say -- GOD made MAN in HIS image – may be -- but on closer scrutiny -- it rather seems just the opposite -- MAN made GOD in HIS image – and called it DIVINE.

Hobbyty #539 You will be pleased to learn that I decided to move out of my state of blissful ignorance and to read the first of the readings you suggested, the Atlantic magazine`s article on the Quran. Basically, the article describes how the Quran was revealed to the Prophet verbally, that the Prophet could not write and relayed what he heard orally to others, and that the Quran in it`s current form was written perhaps a century after the death of the Prophet. It describes how parts of the Quran are quite incomprehensible to people. But there is nothing new or even contentious here. It does not by any means take away from a muslim the right to believe in one God and in Muhammed being His Prophet. We all know that these are beliefs, not something that we need to try and prove or disprove scientifically. Nor are we expected to understand everything in the Quran, just as we cannot understand everything in the universe. The things we do understand - that the important thing is to our deeds, and that our deeds must be based on a love for learning about God`s Creation, respect for all people, kindness and so on - are in fact simple enough.

I dont see this as an attack on Islam. Here is a passage from the article: ``Yet Islam became one of the world`s great religions in part because of its openness to social change and new ideas. (Centuries ago, when Europe was mired in its feudal Dark Ages, the sages of a flourishing Islamic civilization opened an era of great scientific and philosophical discovery. The ideas of the ancient Greeks and Romans might never have been introduced to Europe were it not for the Islamic historians and philosophers who rediscovered and revived them.) Islam`s own history shows that the prevailing conception of the Koran is not the only one ever to have existed, and the recent history of biblical scholarship shows that not all critical-historical studies of a holy scripture are antagonistic. They can instead be carried out with the aim of spiritual and cultural regeneration. They can, as Mohammed Arkoun puts it, demystify the text while reaffirming ``the relevance of its larger intuitions.````

How can you think of this as an attack on Islam? The last sentence of the quote is particularly relevant and worth thinking about. The ``larger intuitions`` - belief in a Supreme Consciousness, interest in God`s creations and so forth. This is what all great religions are about.

If we muslims got off our high horse and saw ourselves as we are told to see ourselves by the Quran itself - not a ``chosen people`` but like any other people - I think we will feel less insulted and more pleased if people spend their energies studying Quran from a historical perspective. Islam is in no danger, and these are not attacks.

So, I think you can join me in bliss, not ignorant bliss, but bliss in the knowledge that we dont have to be so defensive. That Islam is more than just one Book - it is first and foremost the concept of a Supreme Being that we muslims believe were imparted to the Prophet. And that we share these concepts with people of other faiths.

Famed Kashmiri poet - Agha Shahid Ali passed away last week in New York -- after a long illness with terminal cancer -- at the young age of 52.

1949 -- 2001

May his anguished soul rest in peace -- and may his beloved paradise on earth -- find peace and tranquility -- in 2002.

Our heart felt condolence and prayers to his family in Kashmir and in New York.

Following is an interesting article from the now famous young Pakistani author, Kamila Shamsie:

``Flames clinging to a torched village

India talks of terrorism, and the world listens. But the Kashmiris have tens of thousands dead, and the world is deaf to their plight. By Kamila Shamsie.

At a conference in America a few weeks ago, I stressed the urgent need to find a political solution in Kashmir. We must stop thinking about Kashmir in terms of what India and Pakistan want, and start thinking about the rights of the Kashmiris, I argued.

Afterwards, an Indian student approached me and asked: ``But isn`t it hypocritical for successive Pakistani governments to talk about the importance of allowing Kashmiris to vote for their future when there is no democracy in Pakistan?`` ``Of course it is,`` I replied. ``But how is the hypocrisy of Pakistan relevant to the Kashmiri right to self-determination?``

The problem for the Kashmiris is that India (unwittingly aided by Pakistan) has succeeded in making it relevant. India`s stance on Kashmir is that there is really no internal problem, and all the troubles are created by Pakistan-sponsored religious militants......(http://www.indexonline.org/news/20020610_kashmir.shtml)

Drumz - `Anacalypsis` from the Greek I think, meaning an `uncovering` or `revealing`. Yeah, I`ve heard of it. Rare set of books I`d like to check out. They`re supposedly pretty expensive. I tried some searches but can`t find any excerpts.

Any clue?

You`ve mentioned stuff on The Feminine, my main focus of research right now. Do you have any source for the Saudi goddesses destroyed at the birth of Islam, like Al-lat? Al-Manat (goddess of fate) worshipped in the form a black stone, and Al-Uzza (goddess of East Mecca) who had human sacrifices carried out in her name. There was a total of 360 deities. Anything?

The Islamic quadratic (4 geometry I mentioned, has heavy feminine symbology. Go figure. (Present day stuff must be revenge of the Goddess:0) The Christian trinity is masculine. There seem to be strong connections between the two mathematically, a possible fusion, provable via geometries. What a great puzzle.

re: banjaara

Very impressive - I see saxena shouting hellalujah, praise to Allah and sadna exchanging her sai baba vaccation with hajj - You guys are so wacked out, its depressing.

re: sri l. k. advani (hindustan times)

``Home Minister L.K. Advani on Friday said the decision to withdraw India`s High Commissioner in Islamabad had not been taken in haste. He said Pakistan had to pay for not acting against terrorist groups based there.``

When Musharaf found out about this punitive measure taken by the govt. of india, he was heart broken - The indian high commissioner was an old bridge buddy and a valuable friend - He allegedly commented that he would have preferred a ``surgical strike`` of indian commandos against the training camps rather than parting with his langotiya yaar, the Indian High Commissioner - A candle in his honor will be lit every night in the Army House until he comes back.

Banjaara # 542

Oh Banjaara! Believe me, I have nothing against those who believe that the Quran is the word of God, I believe that too, but please don`t take that kind of stuff too seriously :)

Perhaps you haven`t associated with fundamentalist Christians too much. They, as well as many Jews, have made this business of decoding mathematical structures (codes) in their ``holy`` books quite a growth industry. The ``Faith Bible Church`` in Ithaca, NY, actually specialized in such stuff, with their members ever ready to prove to anyone that mathematically Bible was the only true book of God!

To satisfy yourself, just do a Google on ``Bible Code`` or ``Cosmic Code`` or something similar, and you will have a gazillion references to people busy finding their express ways to God along this path :)

This entire approach falls within the broad category of ``self-authenticating`` arguments that some people use to persuade others about the validity of THEIR unique sources of knowledge; and specific method you presented is an example of the famous (or more appropriately, the infamous) cryptographic method.

If you are partial to that genre of thinking, I suggest you read some far more satisfying essays on the relationship between Mathematics, Physics, and Spirituality. If you are interested, I should be able to dig out some references for you.

Best regards.

PS: Where have you been hiding? Don`t see much of you these days.

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Re scout (#501):

Actually, we need to carefully define “divine intervention” and “miracles” of God. As an Ahmadi-Muslim, I do not believe in any “miracles” that violate natural laws. Belief in such “miracles” drives a rift between religion and rationality, and evolves into a dogma of fairy-tales. It divorces religion from the realities of life, and leads one to superstition.

Towards the end of Surah-e-Israel in Quran, the Prophet is commanded that … if people ask you to show them gardens with streams, or a palace of gold, or that you should go to heaven and bring them a book as proof of truth, tell them “glorious is my Lord, I am but a human sent as a messenger”.

Here “glorious is my Lord” also means that my Lord is full of grandeur and excellence … he does not resort to magic and tricks … exercise your intellect and search within you … and you’ll see the truth of my message …

However, Allah does “intervene” in a way … for example he rescued Jesus from death against all odds, and revealed this to Jesus in advance. All this was done without violating any natural laws … this was a display of “divine intervention” … where one “clearly sees” the “invisible hand of God” at work.

Similarly, Moses parting the Sea did not happen as commonly understood. It can be explained easily by a combination of low tide and elevated ground when Moses led his people across the sea. Later, when the Pharaoh tried to cross the waters, he either missed the elevated ground, or was swept by the high tide. This explanation is consistent with Quranic verses, and fits well with Quran’s overall message of Allah being glorious. Now, the “miracle” here may be the timing of the whole episode, which coincided with the tides in the ocean, and Moses hitting the elevated spot on the ground.

If Jesus was indeed born by parthenogenesis or some similar process, it would not constitute a “miracle” which defies natural laws. Similarly, other children born from a similar process will not necessarily be equivalent to Jesus. As I understand, prophethood is not achieved through process of unusual birth or something similar … but due to one’s pious nature and there being a need for a prophet, as decided by the Powers that be.

Now, if we go with the “naughty Mary” theory, as I mentioned earlier it raises even more conflicts … for me at least. So for now I am stuck with parthenogenesis … till I find a better explanation …which of course cannot violate natural laws or Quranic teachings.

Asad

In Kabul Indians get a bear hug

Agencies/Kabul

Kabul is one place today where an Indian visitor is glad to flaunt his nationality and Pakistanis would hate to be in.

Whether it is government offices or public places, Indians are greeted warmly, sometimes even with a bear hug, by smiling Afghans.

At the Foreign Ministry, the uniformed male receptionist wanted to see the equipment carried by a group of Indian journalists. ``Indians? Indians?`` he asked on being told of their identity. ``No Pakistanis, okay, please go,`` he said, directing the group to the Press office with a back slap and a smile.

``This is one place we are glad to be an Indian,`` commented a scribe. It is not journalists alone who are being greeted with such warmth.

A group of five doctors who have been here for the last three weeks as part of India`s relief effort and have been working at the Indira Gandhi Institute for Child Health, set up with Indian aid in the late 1960s, said they had been overwhelmed by the goodwill and affection shown by parents of their patients.

``Many of them remembered names of Indian doctors who had worked at the hospital before and asked about their welfare,`` A R Basu, a surgeon, said.

The Indian doctors are held in such high regard that often parents come to them with prescriptions given by Afghan doctors. ``But because of professional ethics we try to avoid seeing them,`` said B C Nambiar, an anesthetist.

Hindi film music can be heard in street corners and in taxis, and the only two functioning cinema halls here are screening Bollywood movies. Pirated video cassettes of recent Bollywood releases like the Amitabh Bachchan starrer ``Mohabbatein,`` smuggled in through Pakistan, are available in the markets. If the Afghans are effusive towards Indians, their anger against Pakistanis too is vented loudly. They say the Taliban cadres were largely composed of Pakistanis.

``They raped our country. We hate them,`` said Sanjar, a second-year medical student. ``When they were fleeing after the American bombing started, I asked them why they came. They said they came for jehad since we were not firm in our Islamic belief. I told them to go on to do that in their own country.`` ``Why doesn`t India go to war with Pakistan?`` asked Zia, a taxi driver. ``We don`t want the Taliban to come back.``

Ahmed Wali Masood, Afghan ambassador to Britain and brother of the late Northern Alliance commander Ahmed Shah Masood, had this to say: ``We don`t want help from our neighbours like Pakistan. We have paid a heavy price for that. We want help from India, the US and Britain.``

Re nasah (#500):

On the issue of preservation of Quranic text … here are some thoughts.

I do not doubt that Torah was also revealed by the same God Who revealed the Old Testament, Who sent revelations to Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Zaratushtra, Krishna … Who revealed religions to the Aborigines in Australia, to tribes deep in the Amazon jungles, to the nomads in the Saharan desserts, to the gypsies of the Asian planes, to the Eskimos in the Arctic, to the Tibetans in the Himalayas …

While this sounds a bit like poetic rhapsody, it is consistent with Quranic message that God has sent messengers to all the nations throughout history. These nations were isolated from each other and each had its unique set of transient needs. Owing to this reason, prophets were sent with time-specific messages fit for the needs of their specific nations.

A good example is that of the Israelites. They were subjugated by the Egyptian civilizations for almost five hundred years. By the time Moses “set them free” sometime around 1300 BC, the long subjugation had robbed the Israelites of their dignity. To address this, Torah prescribed very severe punishment for crimes … a shock treatment to revive the nation’s dignity. It advocated a justice system well described by “an eye for an eye”. This eventually hardened the hearts of the Israelites, as a result of which the teachings of Jesus softened them by the “turn the other cheek” approach. Here emphasis was on forgiveness. Reflection indicates while “an eye for an eye” method errs too much in favor of the victim, “turn the other cheek” system errs too much in favor of the criminal.

Later, Quran advocated a somewhat modified method … that the victim has the right to exact revenge, but if you (the victim) think that forgiveness will benefit the society more, then remember that Allah loves those who forgive. Here a delicate balance is struck between the rights of the victim, punishment for a crime, and forgiveness if it brings out the best results.

Interestingly enough, Torah and also the New Testament point to the coming of a future Prophet who will bring a Law for the people. The description fits the person of Prophet Mohammad who appeared later. At the times of the Prophet Mohammad, people of various faiths were expecting his arrival. This explains why Abu-Bakr accepted Mohammad as a prophet immediately. It was not blind faith … it was based upon sound understanding of the scripture.

Now comes the tragic part … i.e., the changes that occur in the scriptures with time … slowly and gradually. Reading the Bible, one cannot ignore human “fingerprints” all over the text … teachings got changed … sometimes deliberately in order to justify various self-serving causes … and sometimes as a result of incidents which resulted in the original text getting destroyed.

Why did God choose not to protect these scriptures? Perhaps because they were transient and limited to one nation or another, and were to be eventually replaced by a permanent, universal scripture anyway. If this does not sound right, then I do not have an explanation at present. But history does attest to the changes in all earlier scriptures. I do think that the scholars are in agreement that even today Quran exists as it was originally revealed. In my opinion this claim of divine protection, made by Quran ages ago, is a strong argument in favor of its divine origin.

Quran requires that other prophets and divine scriptures be accepted if one claims to be a Muslim. Since I fully believe in the true person of prophets Moses, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Zaratushtra, Confucius, and more, I consider myself indeed a true Jew, a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Parsi, a Taoist, and more. Above all, I believe in Prophet Mohammad, whose message of Quran is an umbrella that encompasses all other religions. I therefore consider myself a Muslim as well.

Sad part is that instead of appreciating the differences between various flavors of scriptures, we have gone on wars to prove that my scripture is better than yours, and therefore you must hand over your land to me. This has been the travesty of all religions. Sadly enough Islam, the religion that came to unite them all, also has suffered severely at the hands of its “followers”.

Best Regards,

Asad

sattar2 # 479

`` On the issue of authenticity of Quran....I firmly believe in its divine origin.``

Here is the mathematical code of the Quran proving

its divinity.For further details go to www.submission.org

I apologise for a very lengthy cutNpaste.

``One of the Great Miracles`` [74:35]

The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book. Every element of the Quran is mathematically composed - the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, the unique spelling of certain words, the absence or deliberate alteration of certain letters within certain words, and many other elements of the Quran besides its content. There are two major facets of the Quran`s mathematical system: (1) The mathematical literary composition, and (2) The mathematical structure involving the numbers of suras and verses. Because of this comprehensive mathematical coding, the slightest distortion of the Quran`s text or physical arrangement is immediately exposed.

SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND IMPOSSIBLE TO IMITATE

For the first time in history we have a scripture with built-in proof of divine authorship - a superhuman mathematical composition.

Any reader of this book can easily verify the Quran`s mathematical miracle. The word ``God`` (Allah) is written in bold capital letters throughout the text. The cumulative frequency of occurrence of the word ``God`` is noted at the bottom of each page in the left hand corner. The number in the right hand corner is the cumulative total of the numbers for verses containing the word ``God.`` The last page of the text, Page 372, shows that the total occurrence of the word ``God`` is 2698, or 19x142. The total sum of verse numbers for all verses containing the word ``God`` is 118123, also a multiple of 19 (118123 = 19x6217).

Nineteen is the common denominator throughout the Quran`s mathematical system.

This phenomenon alone suffices as incontrovertible proof that the Quran is God`s message to the world. No human being(s) could have kept track of 2698 occurrences of the word ``God,`` and the numbers of verses where they occur. This is especially impossible in view of (1) the age of ignorance during which the Quran was revealed, and (2) the fact that the suras and verses were widely separated in time and place of revelation. The chronological order of revelation was vastly different from the final format (Appendix 23). However, the Quran`s mathematical system is not limited to the word ``God;`` it is extremely vast, extremely intricate, and totally comprehensive.

THE SIMPLE FACTS

Like the Quran itself, the Quran`s mathematical coding ranges from the very simple, to the very complex. The Simple Facts are those observations that can be ascertained without using any tools. The complex facts require the assistance of a calculator or a computer. The following facts do not require any tools to be verified, but please remember they all refer to the original Arabic text:

1. The first verse (1:1),known as ``Basmalah,`` consists of 19 letters.

2. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ..............19 x 6.

3. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ....19 x 334. [6234 numbered verses & 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalahs) 6234+112 = 6346] Note that 6+3+4+6 =.......19.

4. The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114= 19x6.

5. From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely ...............19 suras.

6. It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+...+26+27) is 342, or .............19 x 18.

7. This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = ........19 x 18.

8. The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of .......19 words.

9. This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters .19 x 4.

10. Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of .....................................................19 verses.

11. This first chronological sura is placed atop the last ..19 suras.

12. Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals .19 x 16.

13. The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of ............19 words.

14. The first verse of the last revelation (110:1) consists of ................19 letters.

15. 14 different Arabic letters, form 14 different sets of ``Quranic Initials`` (such as A.L.M. of 2:1), and prefix 29 suras. These numbers add up to 14+14+29 = 57 = ......19 x 3.

16. The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic Initials occur is 2+3+7+...+50+68 = 822, and 822+14 (14 sets of initials) equals 836, or ................. 19 x 44.

17. Between the first initialed sura (Sura 2) and the last initialed sura (Sura 68) there are 38 un-initialed suras 19 x 2.

18. Between the first and last initialed sura there are ....19 sets of alternating ``initialed`` and ``un-initialed`` suras.

19. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, & 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.

This is a condensed summary of the Simple Facts.

CNN---Certainly Not News.

But then there are others who do bring news--Good News too!

ENJOY!

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BREAKING NEWS: BIG EXPLOSION IN MAZAR-E-SHARIF, 100s OF NORTHERN ALLIANCE MILITIA DEAD

There has been a big explosion in Mazar-e-Sharif, which has reportedly killed hundreds of General Dostum’s Northern Alliance militia. The exact number of dead has not been confirmed yet, but according to reliable sources they number in their hundreds with countless more injured. It is being assumed that this incredible operation was carried out by Taliban special forces. This fearsome attack on General Dostum`s stronghold, which has been the center of US terrorist activities, clearly marks the capability of the Taliban forces. This attack also verifies the utter falsity of the claims by the disbelievers who are continually stating that the Taliban have been defeated and that they are being routed. Rather, the reality of the situation is that the US led coalition are being hunted down by the Taliban.

NORTHERN ALLIANCE FORCES BUTCHER US AND UK SPECIAL FORCES IN KABUL

According to the latest reports, Northern Alliance forces have revolted against their American masters in Kabul. Reports state that the streets of Kabul have been littered with many US and UK special forces and personnel. Kabul is currently controlled by the Northern Alliance faction led by General Fahim, which is being backed by Russia. They had gained control of Kabul after the Talibans` peaceful withdrawal from the city. This revolt comes in the face of the oath taking ceremony of the American administered puppet government, which was bound to take place on the 22nd of December. Northern Alliance militia had been commanded by the puppet Prime Minister and American agent, Hamid Kirzai, to leave Kabul. This was a key part of the American plan to get the influence and power of the Northern Alliance out of Kabul and to install a CIA administered puppet government by the 22nd of December, backed by the so called international ‘peackeeping’ forces. In an unexpected and sweeping move, the Northern Alliance turned on its masters and savagely butchered a large number American and British forces present in the city. The exact number of US and UK casualties is yet to be confirmed.

TALIBAN REGAIN CONTROL FROM SPIN-BOLDAK TO TAKHTAPUL - GUL AGHA`S MERCENARIES ON THE RUN

It has been confirmed that Taliban forces have recaptured Takhtapul. They initiated their attack on the 19th of December and consequently regained complete control from Takhtapul to the border town of Spin-Boldak. Most of the American agent Gul Agha`s ragtag army has been routed from the area and a large number have deserted. Gul Agha`s forces mainly comprise of drug addicts and paedophiles. These people are so unpredictable that Gul Agha remains under the security of 50 US commandos all the time.

In an interview with the BBC Radio Service this week, Taliban official Mullah Abdur-Razzaq said that the Taliban forces are capable of regaining control of Afghanistan at their own accord and would only require 15 days at the most to do this. Every day that passes, Taliban forces are getting more organized and strong as their detachments are making way back to the south from the northern areas. (Kunduz, Mazar-e-Sharif, Takhar etc.)

100s of US SOLDIERS CONFIRMED DEAD AT JACOBABAD AIRBASE.

There will be no Christmas cheering for the 100s of famlies of US servicemen, whose mutilated charred bodies remain littered around Jacobabad’s airbase, accompanied with the most horrid stench. Reports have come in that the Americans have been supplied with truck loads of wooden planks to make coffins for their dead in Jacobabad. It must be pointed out that the American Government is not just lying to the whole world but also to its own people, whose sons have been butchered in the deserts and mountains of Afghanistan by the Mujahideen. The worst part is that these poor families in particular and the American public in general have been kept in total darkness about American casualties throughout this war. So many more American lives will be lost in vain for Bush`s terrorist campaign. So many American mothers will be left without their beloved sons for a war that is being fought for and bankrolled by the Zionist Jews. American families will suffer in the end and a defeated Bush Jr. will simply go back to his business, with his own family alive and well.

DESPITE SOPHISTICATED EQUIPMENT, US MILITARY INTELLIGENCE FAILS TO LOCATE USAMA BIN LADIN

KANDAHAR (Internet News): American Intelligence has failed to find Usama bin Ladin and have not succeeded in obtaining even a clue about his whereabouts after interrogating imprisoned Arab Mujahideen. At the completion of search operations for Usama bin Ladin and his companions in the Tora Bora mountains, the defence minister of the puppet government, Muhammad Faheem, stated that Usama Bin Ladin along with some of his companion had apparently left Afghanistan. The American Intelligence agencies have said that the arrested Al-Qaida members have told them nothing about Usama Bin Ladin or Ameer-ul-Mumineen. As a result of this it is thought that Usama Bin Ladin was not present in this region in the first place.Analysts say that US bombing together with their use of the latest sattelite based tracknig equipment have all failed in trying to find Usama Bin Ladin.

ARRESTED MUJAHIDEEN KNOW NOTHING ABOUT WHEREABOUTS OF AMEER-UL-MUMINEEN OR USAMA BIN LADIN

KANDAHAR (Islam News/Radio Report): The Northern Alliance have handed over two important Taliban leaders to America. According to details the vice minister of defence for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, Mulla Fazal, who had been arrested one month ago by General Dostum, broke an agreement with Mulla Fazal and arrested him along with thousands of his men. They were then handed over to US forces, whilst vice president of Taliban intelligence, Mulla Abdul Haq Waseeq, has handed to over to US forces by General Faheem. Mullah Abdul Haq Waseeq was betrayed by local commanders who handed him over to General Faheem, for the millions of US dollars promised to them by US forces. The US authorities have confirmed that Mulla Fazal and Mulla Waseeq have been shifted to the new American prison in Kandahar along with 15 Taliban and Al- Qaida members. This prison has been built at Kandahar airport. According to American authorities an eight member FBI team has reached Kandahar where they will interrogate these members about Ameer-ul-Mumineen and Usama Bin Ladin.

A very close companion to Ameer-ul-Mumineen informed Daily Islam’s correspondent by satellite phone from an undisclosed location that the US investigating team will not be successful in this interrogation with these members. He further added that Mulla Fazal had been in North Afghanistan for more than a month and he was unaware of Usama Bin Ladin and Ameer-ul- Mumineen’s whereabouts. As far as Mulla Waseeq is concerned, then he was primarily attached to the Department of Intelligence in Kabul and was never involved in planning activities or movements of Ameer-ul-Muminee. He added that Mulla Umar is safe and Insha-Allaah the Americans will never find or capture him. He added that even Mulla Umar’s close companions do not know where he is, so what help will Mulla Waseeq be?

WESTERN JOURNALISTS FAIL TO GET STATEMENTS FROM RESIDENTS OF KANDAHAR OF THEIR OWN WILL

KANDAHAR (Islam News): Nowadays more than 70 journalists are seen roaming the streets of Kandahar and they are interested in reporting anti- Taliban comments from the people, young and old. Accoridng to one of the journalists, most of the number of old people who have been questioned about the period of Taliban rule, have termed it as being the most peaceful time where their wealth and lives were protected and safe. Furthermore, the people seeminly denied the fact that Hamid Karzai could implement peace and justice in their land. After hearing all this, the journalists got into their cars and left disappointed. Hence, anything broadcasted on the international media always show anti-Taliban rhetoric and we advise the Muslims to boycott all of these media outlets, for witholding the truth and propogating falsehood is a major weapon always used to demoralise the Muslims. Will then the Muslims take heed of this?

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Re: Tahmed321 quoting the US Supreme Court, 1961

``Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in God are Buddhism...``

Tahmed321, I do not think that the Buddhists or the Dalai Lama will agree with that interpretation.

Tahmed321

I will not be reconciled with the notion that ignorance is bliss - ``Prominent`` is a estate built on time. Neither Esposito nor Armstrong became prominent overnight. Please read the information I provided you, then, if you still feel that I am being an alarmist, I will reconsider. Note I am clear that such attacks will not have any meaning to those who are strong in their ``faith`` - the intent of these attacks is to shake the foundation - only those weak in their ``faith`` (and we have all been, are, going to be weak, some time or another - the human condition- Contraction and Expansion) will experience needless injury - but maybe I am wrong and that the suffering of the injury is not ``needless``. How I envy those whose journey to faith and to reason, has not been tortuous.

Dost - several Posts

Re Quran: One of the problems associated with the Emmulative type of religiosity associated with Islam today is that it is unwilling to distinguish between Islam and Islamic knowledge. For any ``believer``, the Word and his or her religion is the ``Truth`` - This is certainly the case for Muslims - Quran is the Word of God, it cannot and will not change - however; our understanding of the word will continue to change (Kuhn and Popper - Data subject to interpretation - observer effects the observation itself - observer brings to observation presuppositions, that is a intellectual framework within which data is collected and interpretated)

(I know you don`t like reading long works, but then you can`t say you have been fair in trying to understand a particular point of view - unless of course you know and understand all there is to know and understand)

State religion?

You mean like the Queen of England is also the Defender of the faith? or like the consequences of persecution leading to ``puritans`` landing in Plymouth to setup the city of God? Islamic Republic? In each case the context is essential to understanding the occurence and development.

Manusmitri for India: So long as Hindu majority can realize it`s vision within society, it won`t happen -

Taliban ``true`` Islam? Completely unhelpful to think in such terms - perhaps types of religiousity is a more clear way to think of this - if we can identify an emulative (outward appearance of religiosity - Dogmatism) with a primarily moralizing emphasis, a religiosity primarily redemptive, gnostic, scholarly, associated with ``faith`` and with ``caritas`` and finally The mystical, experiential, associated with certitude as ``emancipation from certidue and the certainty of salvation`` - I hope I haven`t put you to sleep.

Prem

I think I know where your heart is and would like to say that in the contenxt of ``secular humanism``, not as a personal definition - but by their manifesto and the consequences of their philosophy, for institutions and the realtionships that binds us in obligations to one another - secular humanism is directed primarily against traditional religion and institutions.

(``The Good Society``, ``Habits of the Heart`` Peter L. Bergen - ``Beyond Belief`` Robert Bellah

``Cultural Analysis`` Robert Wuthnow) I think I know the point of view you are coming from, but at least read some of these to see where my head and heart is, has been)

Problem for all of us at Chowk is that given the frame of the articles we repond to, the language we use, we tend to be locked up in articulating positions that come across as rigid, where as such is not the case. I began this series by pointing what the social consequences of Dr. Hoodbhoy`s call for ``secular humanism`` as a theoretical foundation for Pakistani society - thus far no one has argued in that context, but in the context of the Taliban (basically, a trick) - so many have unthinking attached their own thinking to what ``secular humanism`` means that it is next to impossible to think of it in scientific terms. Is this any less than SELF-righteousness? that is there terms of reference, is their own values, experience and presuppositions?

Calling for the specialization of institutions of religion and goverenance is most certainly not the same as ``secular humanism``, it is not even an element of it. Secular humanism incredibly, is characterized primarily by it`s hostility to traditional institutions.

Re:Reply #: 530

nasah,

Amen to every word in your post. Let us see if Musharraf has the common sense or the intuition to realise his folly. As i write this post, LeT`s funds have been frozen by USA. JeM may follow suit.

Sridhar

25,000 Afghanis died from the recent US bombings? That turns out to be about 10,000 deaths every month, about 300 people dead every day, about a dozen people dying every hour, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day...

Amazing! While the death of even a single person is a tragegy, do people who believe these astronomical figures have any way to back them up? Anybody knows where these numbers come from?

Trillium: Id by lying if I said I eva heard of a Muslim with his finger on it like u.

I wont bother elaborating cuz the FACELESS ``editors`` on Chowk get thier kicks by deleting people`s posts. (COWARDS...)

Juss recommend some sh1t on your wavelength... Check out experiments on retro spycho kenesis and princetons number generator (This sh1t about 9/11)... Check Godfrey Higgins online book called the ``anacalypsis`` (a monumnetal work from the 19 century, available online). He breaks down the 600 year cycles (1200 BC Quetzcoatl, 500 Buddha, mahavira etc, 0 Jesus etc, 600 Muhammed...) See the mayans and dec 21st 2012, the coming age as prophesized by the hindus... Study the ancient egyptians mystery schools - spiritual geometry - pythagorus... Get at me on the email tip sometime if u want amplification...

re: sattar2

``When they would go to other restaurants/eating places in town for lunch in between classes, jamaati-type students would follow them around, telling restaurant owners not to serve these “kaffirs” and sometimes threatening the restaurant owners who tried to serve them.``

I think Musharraf is not doing enough to deal with these people. Opponents of secularism don`t want to see these inhuman results of following mullahs. Jamat-i-Islami type of organizations should be banned and their leaders tried and punished for the untold misery they have inflicted on their own fellow citizens.

re: nasah on musharaf

The best way to deal with this would be to send the indian special ops forces into Pakistan. Remember Maj. Gupta of Kargil fame - From what I hear these guys are certified rambos. How about dropping a few of them around Muzzafarabad. There are many advantages in this - These highly trained commandos would be able to wipe out the training camps, gather useful evidence, send a powerful message to the Pakistani govt. and in general might be good for the moral of indian troops who have lately been shooting down ill-equiped Kashmiri freedom fighters. It would also look better compared to shooting down unarmed recon. aircrafts.

Re: AnNY

``..i am a shia a