The Brahmin Warrior

Harimou-24

[AnNy did correctly identify Faiza (one name for the 12-headed serpent Studebaker) as an Indian. However Faiza`s misogyny is caused by his madrassah education and all his study of psychology in his MBBS has not wiped out his unadulterated hatred of women. He still carries a chip on his shoulder thinking the Hindus got him.]

Faiza`s hatred for women goes beyond his/her

school days.She hates all women `coz her mom was

a prostitute in Sona Gachi,Kolkata.I have explained it in one of my poems on Chowk.Now

Chowk editors refuse to print anything from me.

One more thing,I am certain that 12head is some

how associated with Chowk Editorial Board,hence

the uncontrolled creation of new nicks for this

nitwit.Suggest boycotting Chowk for a week to

force the editorial board to ferret out the skunk.

PS:saminashah wrote many letters on the subject

to Chowk board without any response.Hence,the

suggestion for boycott.

Bodenheimer #425 You claim to be a college professor in Israel. For the sake of education in Israel, I hope that is a figment of your imagination. More likely you forget your medication every few days and come to chowk to demonstrate just how full of sh!t you are.

Poonawala

From a hindu Indian nationalist -

`AMEN `

Satish

Ref Stuka #: 16

[AnNy:

``what i said was that u are a disgrace to womankind, your religion and your country...and you are...(hopefully, ull be from india) ``

Man, if that is not unadulterated hate, I don`t know what is :( Hamney tumahara itna kya begara tha??]

AnNy did correctly identify Faiza (one name for the 12-headed serpent Studebaker) as an Indian. However Faiza`s misogyny is caused by his madrassah education and all his study of psychology in his MBBS has not wiped out his unadulterated hatred of women. He still carries a chip on his shoulder thinking the Hindus got him.

Studebaker doesn`t realize that his behavior doesn`t earn him the respect of Pakistanis (except the mullah types), or of Indians.

Vereesh #14: I can only agree with one of your comments; the one about Ahmedis.

I would have to state that your knowledge of the dynamics of the Pakistani society is somewhat limited. I have found this phenomenon to be common amongst Indians. I have worked with Indians, eaten with them, etc. literally on a daily basis for around ten years, now. I have come to the conclusion Indians know very little about Pakistan. Indians tend to map the Pakistani society based on the Indian Muslim society and habits. Those are not a reflection of the Pakistani society.

Pakistanis, on the other hand know far more, about India and Indians (just like Indians know more about Islam, than Pakistanis know about Hinduism).

There are three reasons for this. Briefly, they are: Pakistanis get a chance to interact with far more Indians outside Pakistan, than vice versa. A greater portion of Pakistanis trace their heritage to India, than vice-versa. And Indian media, films, magazines are readily available in Pakistan, and accepted and followed by Pakistanis in a hugely larger number, than vice-versa.

``I earnestly state that I think none of them are threatened because they are Muslim by religion, whether visibly Muslim or not.``

You could be correct about this. My only knowledge about this is through Indian Muslim newspapers like milligazette.com, etc. And they seem to indicate that Muslims are now (``now`` being the important word herer) begining to get more and more defensive in India, as the BJP has regularly started to win elections.

``But I do get the feedback that eveybody, especially now the Indian Muslims, feel that the subcontinent could have done better without division.``

What is the reason behind this feeling? That was my initial question. For example, hardly any Pakistani Muslim would agree with this. Pakistani Muslims, of all generations that I have met, are extremely critical of Pakistan, but I have hardly met anyone who does not support the partition. Why is there such a difference between the views of Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims? This is the gist of all my questions.

``It is simply a statement that Pakistan was not for them.``

Pakistan was for anyone who wanted to migrate to Pakistan. It was open to anyone in India. Just like India was open to anyone to migrate to India. If Pakistan, ``was not for them,`` then it is a deliberate choice made by them. One has to respect their views. But, how can they then have any kind of an opinion on Pakistan`s creation, one way or the other.

``but not for the average man on street Muslim in India, who hears more than enough about the derogatory terms ``Mohajir````

Mohajir is definitely not a derogatory term, in any sense of the word, in Pakistan. It is infact a term coined by the urban Sindhi community, themselves. The largest party of urban Sindh calls itself Mohajir Qaumi Movement. Eveyone, including Musharraf himself, refers to Pakistan`s current President as an ethnic Mohajir. The Mohajir community, by a huge margin, in basically any field in Pakistan, is decades ahead of the rest of the Pakistan. It has, by far, the highest education rate, the highest rate of female literacy, the highest rate of industrial development, the highest number of Chiefs of Staffs, the highest percentage of Pakistani technocrat expatriates. Karachi has 80% of Pakistan`s IT companies, the highest number of universities and colleges, by a gigantic margin the highest percentage of military budget (larger than the military budget of the whole Sindh and Baluchistan province combined). It has I believe the wealthiest city in South Asia, etc. The list goes on and on. The credit of all of this goes to the Mohajir community themselves (a community which I greatly admire by the way; not counting their naive support for the militant and corrupt MQM leadership). Needless to say, the Mohajir community is easily per capita, the most successful community in Pakistan. And a Mohajir is running the country in Pakistan. Infact, he is a dictator, yet everyone from all ethnicities is supporting him. What are the odds of a Muslim running India, as a future Prime Minister? What are the odds of one being accepted as a dictator?

``the removal from Islam of Ahmediyas and other Muslim sects``

The part regarding the Ahmedis is correct. A political decision made by Bhutto, which has snow- balled into a situation, that will probably never get reversed. I don`t know of any other sect being removed from Islam in Pakistan, however. Could you name a few?

``Seems it is for the mullahs``

Mullahs are far more powerful in India, than in Pakistan. The BJP has a manifesto (www.bjp.org)that is more extreme than that of even the JUI, what to talk of Jamaat-e-Islami. And the BJP wins the elections, again and again. The recent sidelining of the religious right in Pakistan should convince you of their popularity in Pakistan. As a Muslim, one would think the strong Hindu nationalist BJP to be a much greater threat, than a very weak Muslim Jamaat-e-Islami. Wouldn`t you agree?

``So the very basis of a (theological state??) is questioned, in my humble opinion, increasingly by many Indian Muslims.``

This seems to be one of the greatest misconceptions in India. Pakistan is not a theological state. Please see my comment above. If it were a theological state, then one would think the religious parties combined would win more than 1% of the seats (they won less than 1% in the last elections). Infact, Pakistan is surrounded on three sides by three theological govts: BJP in India (with a phiolosophy based on RSS, according to www.bjp.org), clerical govt. in Iran, and the Taliban (until last month) in Afghanistan.

``Would we have more Muslims in India than Pakistan has Muslims, if people were not ``safe`` in India?``

This is a relatively valid argument. But where exactly do you expect the Indian Muslims to go. The living standards in Pakistan, though traditionally higher than those in India, are not high enough to cause a migration of Muslims from India. If Pakistan were to turn into UAE, I have a feeling a lot of Indian Muslims would be interested in migrating, if the BJP wave continues.

However, from what I have read, the Muslims felt quite safe under the Congress govt; hence the large numbers. But their seems to be a growing fear under the BJP govt., and the direction India is moving. As a Muslim, one would logically feel threatened under a govt. which has on its website, articles with the following headings: ``Pampering Minorities won`t do, ``The Hindu has changed, the Muslim has not, ``Only Hinduvta is India`s national identity,`` ``Muslims should refrain from building Babri Mosque`` etc. (http://www.bjp.org/philo.htm). You will not find any such articles on the website of any of the Pakistan`s major parties, or on any military website. As a Muslim, I have no fear that any individual, much less the ruling govt. is going to tear down my place of worship in Pakistan, as a part of its election manifesto. That must scare some Muslims in India. Wouldn`t you agree?

``Please include all sects and sub-sects of followers of Islam and tell me truthfully, are they, the Muslims, safer in India or Pakistan?``

Definitely, safer in Pakistan. One only needs to visit the BJP website to be sure of that, and visit Indian Muslim newspapers.

``The future of Bharat is set. Hindutva is here to stay. It is up to the Muslims whether they will be included in the new nationalistic spirit of Bharat. It is up to the government and the Muslim leadership whether they wish to increase Hindu furor or work with the Hindu leadership to show that Muslims and the government will consider Hindu sentiments. The era of one-way compromise of Hindus is over, for from now on, secularism must mean that all parties must compromise.

Hindutva will not mean any Hindu theocracy or theology. However, it will mean that the guiding principles of Bharat will come from two of the great teachings of the Vedas, the ancient Hindu and Indian scriptures, which so boldly proclaimed -`` (http://www.bjp.org/philo.htm)

It is obviously Indian`s business to decide whether they want Hinduvta or not, but one has to assume the above passage would scare any Muslim. I cannot imagine anything like the above being a part of a manifesto in Pakistan.

In third world countries, minorities are always worse off than majorities. Hindus are safer in in India, than in Pakistan. And Muslims are safer in Pakistan than in India. Both due to the majority factor. To suggest otherwise, would be day-dreaming.

Indian Muslims probably do feel that they would have been better off without a partition, primarily because it would have given them more strength to overcome the emerging Hinduvta wave. They probably did not feel a similar anxiety under a Congress govt. What do you think?

#: 12

Masd

``Mankani`s janam Bhoomi HYderabad,Sindh has become the home of hundereds of thousands of Muslims who migrated from India mainly from Rajasthan, Delhi,UP and Gujrat. The Advani Lane, Maskani Lane, Lajpat Road, Diyal Das Club, numerous homes left by Sindhi Hindus are all the symbols of a great past of this city. The Sikhs of Punjab are lucky that they can easily visit their homes left in West Punjab cities of Lahore, Gujranwala, Jhelum, Gurat, Sheikhupurs, etc and their host can welcome them with open arms without being granted the title of Raw agents or traitors by the Punjabi dominated government of Pakistan however the Sindhi Hindus can hardly visit their lost land and see their towns and cities due to the hostile attitutde of Pakistani establishment towards them. The Sindhis cannot invite their Indian sindhis friends without fearing persecution from government of Pakistan. There can be World Punjabi Congress in Lahore but holding World Sindhi Congress in Hyderabad would remain a dream for many years to come.``

Masd

Same can be said of

ALL KASHMIR CONFERENCE WITH PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE LOC

ALL BIHARS FROM MOHAJIR ACROSS THE BORDER COMING TO CONGREGATE IN GAYA,PATNA,Lucknow ,Kanpur OR NOW JHARKAND?

or for that matter Hyderabadi in both india & pakistan,or gujrati ,Kutchi ,Maharashtrians .

EVERY STATE WAS NOT PRINCELEY STATE LIKE KASHMIR TO BE GIVEN SPECIAL STATUS BY DECREE OF INDEPENDENCE PRIOR TO aug 47!

Reply #: 14

veeresh

``.....It is not a question of against a separate country called Pakistan; you are Pakistani, you are welcome to your country and what you do within. It is simply a statement that Pakistan was not for them. Who was it for, then? Seems it is for the mullahs or the military or the Arabs or the other current day backers, but not for the average man on street Muslim in India, who hears more than enough about the derogatory terms ``Mohajir`` or the removal from Islam of Ahmediyas and other Muslim sects . . . I assure you, we in India would never make a law de-barring people from their religion like Pakistan has. And that is our strength and our truth:- that we are proud of this fact.

So the very basis of a (theological state??) is questioned, in my humble opinion, increasingly by many Indian Muslims......``

.....................

Veeresh

HERE IS A EXPRESSION OF CONCERN OF AN INDIAN MUSLIM MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF SOMEWHAT COLLEGE EDUCATED .RIGHT OR WRONG.

``Dear Aligs

ASAK

As its not new to all of us that any muslim institute, as a part of

political conspiracy, is being dubbed as ``Terrorist Facotory``, the

first targets on there list are ``Madarsaas``, eveyday in news papers a

question is being raised about these madarsaas, the hype is to this

extent that every bearded Maulana is being feared to be a terrorist

just like in mid 80`s when whole of the sikh community was looked

upon as terrorists.

Now the quetion arises who`ll clear these doubts, our so called

pseudo secular friends or we our self ?? Lets us relate this to the

literacy level of our society, Most of the Maulanas and Maulvis that

take up education at madarsaas are not aware (fully) of the

technological advancement and political conspiracies, they don`t evenunderstand the words and the meaning of Internet, seminars etc.The

basic reason to this is their distance from modern education,

In contrast to this, the educated part of our society is not being

able to convince others because either they lack Basic Islamic

knowledge or are maintain distance from the community once they

attain ``status``

So if the two are mixed (Deeni talim and modern education) we may

better be able answer the Blames of so called secular world, lets do

something to equip the students of madarsaas with english and modern

education and Our children studying in convents with urdu and Islamic

knowledge.

Here I`ll cite an example published in Times of India (Sunday) few

days back, Sakina Yusuf Khan, a journalist, once visited the Deoband

Madarsa, as after 11 sept. episode the Deoband connection was being

tried to make with Taliban, she in her editorial wrote that she was

highly impressed by the `` English Fluency`` of the maulana (VC of

Deoband madrsa), the interview of the VC was so impressive that it

might have cleared most of the doubts of common people regarding

madarsaas. Also I recall last year a popular hindi daily ``Amar Ujala``

wrote that ``... and Regular terrorist training camps are being held

at AMU`` to this a power ful response was made the VC asked the paper

to opologize and the matter was also sent to home ministry. This was

only achieved cause we had at that time a ``Powerful speech``

and ``Powerful Pen``, unfortunately not many of our Institutes (Mostly

Madarsaas) have this POWER.

The power of Speech and pen can only be attained when our future

generation will have a strong base of Deeni and duniayabi talim.

n this context, in my earlier message titled ``Spirit`` I mentioned

the work being undertaken by an young Aligarian , Mr. Nafisul Hasan

thru his society named SPEECH (Sir Syed Society for Promotion of

Education, Enlightenment and Communal Harmony) ,based at Dehradun is

truely in lines with the need of hour. This Society is enabling the

poorest children of our society with ``words`` and preparing them to

become a better citizen of our country who are filled with

scientific temper, patriotic and real Islamic Spirit at primary

level. Sir Syed Public School can be percieved as a model school

which has the essence of Sir Syed`s efforts and dreams where a right

combination of deeni and modern education is given to poor children

of our community. All this I have seen , felt and got impressed.

Lets pray that efforts like these touch high sky, and Inshallah one

day may be not we but our next generation will be proud of being a

part of an educated societ.....``

Veeresh bhai

``To your question: may I know the basis by which you state that Muslims do not feel safe in India? Would we have more Muslims in India than Pakistan has Muslims, if people were not ``safe`` in India?``

Such argument of large number of Muslims in India belie the fact that average Hindu was never involved in the presence of Muslims in India ,if you think,a process taken place over 1000 years of history of the subcontinent .

Nor did average Muslims in the heart of India Orissa,M.P.,U.P,Bihar ,H.P. Andhrapradesh,deep inside far away from Amritsar & Murshidabad border towns could,should or would have an option of going away someplace including Pakistan.

At the time of Partition in 1947, 5 million or 1/2 crores hindu crossed into India from Pakistan & 20% less that number or 4 millions Muslims did go to Pakistan most by life & death situation ,particularly muslims fleeing away .

Even the lowest estimate of muslim population then would put it 5 crores out of 40 crores of Indians at indepence time 14 th aug1947!,i.e. about 8+%.ONLY LESS THAN 10% OF INDIAN MUSLIMS EVER WENT TO PAKISTAN.The 90% of Indian muslims after 1954 were either left in India by circumstanceses beyond them .

It almost became a rareity because after that of any indian muaslim to migrate easily even after thousands of riots like Bhagalpur in 87 & bombay 92 Calcutta63 etc.BECAIUSE ,of Pakistans ,own reluctence to consider Indian muslim plight as any goal of the mission of Pakitan .

So when you deduce any conclusion from the superficial .on the surface ,appearence of increasing number of muslims in india IT IS NEITHER DUE TO CHOICE OF MUSLIMS NOR IS IT DUE TO ANY SOCIAL STATUS GRANTED TO THEM BY THE MAJORITY IF YOU DONT CONSIDER NOT LETTING LET LOOSE SUDDEN ASSAULT OF GENOCIDE LIKE `IN GERMANY AGAINST JEWS OR AGAINST BOSNIAN,KOSOVAN ,ALBANIAN CROATIAN BY THE SERBS,AS A PREVILEGE & NOT BASICHUMAN RIGHT & CITIZENRY.

Anny: LOL, I like the attitude a lot. Bimbit, Ima borrow that one if u dont mind. And dont have any reservations about the four letter words. Nothing gets the point accros easier.

Rehan: How are u doing these days?

Dear Rehan . . . to explain Bandra and growing up pragmatic . . . the best way to understand this would be to please accept that Bandra (of all places in India) is one huge melting pot where communities of all sorts seem to co-exist without much fuss . . . from Salcette Goan Catholics with their restrictive property rules to multi-religious fishermen living within the same villages to ultra rich of all sorts to Parsees to middle class in the older buildings . . . even the street gangs in Bandra are not based on religion . . . gays and lesbians are left alone . . . the almighty rupee (and dirham, and dollar, and now Euro . . .) rules paramount . . . try an experiment, ask a lady friend to dress on successive days in a severe burqa, in a non-severe coloured burqa, a koli sari, a standard sari, a salwar-kameez, a long skirt, a very sort skirt, a pair of trousers etcetc and go through Pali Market or stroll at BandStand or visit Mount St. Mary`s area and ask her if she is treated any differently? Or go to a property broker and ask to buy / rent a flat and give Hindu / Muslim / Christian names?

Point I am making is that Bandra especially from amongst many other places is a place where you cannot but grow up realising that religious discrimination does not exist here.

From schooling onwards, and Bandra is littered with good schools run by most faiths, to the co-existence of pure vegetarian udipis right next to Miyaji meat chop houses . . .

Ah, Bandra.

This is inspiration for an article. Or two.

And Kamal Hassan, he grew up in the middle of all this. Why he moved to Madras/Chennai later on is another story which . . . uhhhhm there are confidences here.

See, I did some of my growing up in Bandra, too . . .

AnNy:

``what i said was that u are a disgrace to womankind, your religion and your country...and you are...(hopefully, ull be from india) ``

Man, if that is not unadulterated hate, I don`t know what is :( Hamney tumahara itna kya begara tha??

Reply Romair # 11

“…if the Indian Muslims feel that Pakistan should not have been created, does the blame go to Pakistan for creating itself, or to India for not making the Indian Muslims feel secure in India?”

Bit of both. It involves the usual suspects: TNT and Partition.

Partition resulted in a republic which was ideologically committed to being Muslim majority (a short step to an Islamic Republic? Dare I draw a parallel with a certain Jewish State with “equal rights” for all inhabitants?) and a republic whose official essence was not just indifferent, but antipathetic to the TNT (“Unity in Diversity” and all that jazz, and yes, the defects of the land of e pluribus unum are not that dissimilar).

Said republic was so diverse, however, that it included people whose Hindu nationalist views (which jive totally with TNT) had been strengthened (or perhaps even vindicated? “See, you can’t trust these people…”) by Partition. These people are bad news for Indian Muslims (and for many other Indians as well), and anything which strengthens them and their ideas has the potential to diminish the position and integration of Indian Muslims in Indian society (and threatens India as a whole, in the long run).

Their ideology is based on the TNT. They do not believe individuals of different religious beliefs can be equal parts of one nation (they may not admit this, but actions speak louder than words) and they do not believe that nations, or groups, can live together at peace without one dominating (read humiliating) the other (ditto to above, political mercantilism, so to speak).

In India they are strengthened by:

1 Pakistan’s creation in the past (TNT in action) and

2 The failure of India to put the demon back in its box in the present. Which involves

3 Systematic Government appeasement of political bullies,

4 Vote bank politics involving “leaders” from every religious group, and

3 A subcontinental tendency to enshrine “group rights” (traditionally defined rather than articulated via the ballot box) over “individual rights” (including the right to be different).

Recent events in Maharashtra (Mangle?) and Gujarat are what we can expect in the rest of the country if they get stronger.

They are weakend by:

1 Individuals of different religions coexisting peacefully and interacting peacefully (like sometimes on Chowk :))

2 Education, and the resulting demands on the state for a more competent performance rather than on essentially empty issues such as one more or less mandir/masjid in this country which has mandirs/masjids in vulgar oversupply, and

3 Respect for individual rights (including the right to be different) – that is to say, the rule of law.

Zafar

PS OK, I’m sorry that Kashmir interaction of many months ago got out of hand, but boss you pushed my buttons there…khair, I would be interested in your response to what I wrote here, and hope you reply.

subroto #411 This talking hound dog reminds me vaguely of someone...I cannot put a finger on it, but it reminds me of someone...maybe I know and am afraid to say it...

;-)

Mankani`s janam Bhoomi HYderabad,Sindh has become the home of hundereds of thousands of Muslims who migrated from India mainly from Rajasthan, Delhi,UP and Gujrat. The Advani Lane, Maskani Lane, Lajpat Road, Diyal Das Club, numerous homes left by Sindhi Hindus are all the symbols of a great past of this city. The Sikhs of Punjab are lucky that they can easily visit their homes left in West Punjab cities of Lahore, Gujranwala, Jhelum, Gurat, Sheikhupurs, etc and their host can welcome them with open arms without being granted the title of Raw agents or traitors by the Punjabi dominated government of Pakistan however the Sindhi Hindus can hardly visit their lost land and see their towns and cities due to the hostile attitutde of Pakistani establishment towards them. The Sindhis cannot invite their Indian sindhis friends without fearing persecution from government of Pakistan. There can be World Punjabi Congress in Lahore but holding World Sindhi Congress in Hyderabad would remain a dream for many years to come.

Dear Romair . . . the Indian Muslims I know span the full expanse of social fabric here, from rickshaw wallah to dope seller to kabadi wallah to paan wallah to meat wallah to sabzi wallah and then working upwards to the educated middle class lot and thence onwards to the hoi-polloi. I would say that 10% of my daily interaction in India is with Muslims, like most other people, and there is nothing strange about it either. 50% of these Muslims are, naturally, women.

I earnestly state that I think none of them are threatened because they are Muslim by religion, whether visibly Muslim or not. (Man or woman on street, called ``Pappoo`` or ``Tilloo`` or ``Seema`` or ``Dolly``, wearing average clothes with standard haircut, how do you tell what religion?? So how does s/he get threatened??) Yes, some are threatened because they are not rich or powerful just as some are threatened because they ARE rich and powerful.

But I do get the feedback that eveybody, especially now the Indian Muslims, feel that the subcontinent could have done better without division. All the women for sure, and most of the men too.

It is not a question of against a separate country called Pakistan; you are Pakistani, you are welcome to your country and what you do within. It is simply a statement that Pakistan was not for them. Who was it for, then? Seems it is for the mullahs or the military or the Arabs or the other current day backers, but not for the average man on street Muslim in India, who hears more than enough about the derogatory terms ``Mohajir`` or the removal from Islam of Ahmediyas and other Muslim sects . . . I assure you, we in India would never make a law de-barring people from their religion like Pakistan has. And that is our strength and our truth:- that we are proud of this fact.

So the very basis of a (theological state??) is questioned, in my humble opinion, increasingly by many Indian Muslims.

To your question: may I know the basis by which you state that Muslims do not feel safe in India? Would we have more Muslims in India than Pakistan has Muslims, if people were not ``safe`` in India?

Please include all sects and sub-sects of followers of Islam and tell me truthfully, are they, the Muslims, safer in India or Pakistan?

On a lighter note, I think Indian Muslims as all other Indians, are safer because they don`t have American Cruise missiles flying over their heads at night. As good a reason as any other.

Vereesh: ``one that I increasingly hear from Muslims in India - that the biggest dis-service to Muslims in the undivided Indian sub-Continent was the formation of Pakistan.``

Do the Indian Muslims make this comment because they are genuinely against a separate country called Pakistan? Or do they make this comment because they fear the Hindu majority in India, and feel that the population of Muslims in Pakistan, combined with the Indian Muslim population, would have given them more security against the majority Hindu population?

I live as a minority Muslim in a majority non-Muslim USA. Just like Indian Muslims live as a minority in a majority non-Muslim state. However, I have never felt threatened in the USA, because of my religion. It would be great if there were more Muslims in the USA, but I do not feel a need for that just due to security reasons. I feel safe enough.

Based on the above, if the Indian Muslims feel that Pakistan should not have been created, does the blame go to Pakistan for creating itself, or to India for not making the Indian Muslims feel secure in India?

Would be interested in your view.....