Caste, Technology and Religious Conversions in India

Soysauce:

Let me remind you exactly what happened a couple of years back in your beloved Tamil Nadu.

In order to honor a Dalit leader, an existing state-owned bus transport company was divided into two and the second one was named for the Dalit. In a town populated mostly by Thevars, the population was upset that a bus named for a Dalit would be allowed to transit through their town, and burnt down the bus. The Dalits decided this was too much of an insult and attacked some Thevars with sickles and cut their heads off. Several more buses were burnt for being unfortunate enough to go through the disturbed areas, Thevars and Dalits took turns at stopping buses and killing members of the other community and the whole crap went on for some months (Pakistanis, we are NOT talking about a tribal area like those in NWFP or even a mountainous area here; we are talking about what passes for a nominally civilized town in the plains of Tamil Nadu) before order could be restored. And the solution to the problem was: there will be no bus company named for anybody and all existing bus companies had their name changed.

Let me point out that the most your beloved leader Karunanidhi could talk about Brahmin intolerance was that Brahmins did not allow Dalits to walk through the streets in which they lived. That was some 80 years ago when in villages the Brahmins lived on one street by themselves so that they could keep their religious observances without let or hindrance. Your folks have transferred caste even to an inanimate object like a bus and would not allow public transport go through a major town. And you have the temerity, the unmitigated gall, to talk about casteism and Brahmin oppression.

If I were you, I would not indicate on my driver`s license that I am organ donor because the first time you go to a hospital, the doctors will start harvesting your organs.

Reply #: 45

RSaxena

re: harimau #41

...you`re trying to get a chimpanzee to understand Maxwell`s Equations...

SUX SENA

The day Hindu Mythology is considered more than fiction of much less significance ..than ONE Miniscule solitary solo single among billions of muslims ,...Rushdies playfull imaginatuion like Satanic Verses ,That day The nut like Harami .Ou or Sux Sena , can write one single coherent sentence.But like all prehistoric animalistic vestigeal practices of atavistic religion,hinduism is just that

saxena, harimou,

Thank you so much for defending India`s & hindus` izzats from a twelve headed, brain dead retard ( each head is more retarded than the next).

Indians on Chowk desparately need achoots like you to clean up the garbage on Chowk.

sincerely,

appreciatively,

shankar

PS..quack quack..

HaramOu next you will say dowry is not hinduism...then did i invent this or did i make this web sit

http://indiafamily.net/talk/messages/54/117.html

http://indiafamily.net/talk/messages/54/117.html

Dowry:We pay the best price! Top Bids invited

then usually something is wrong with him unless of course he is catholic...or strong orthodox christian.....of course...

All of you who are b!tching and moaning about the disadvantages imposed by the caste system on the Dalits:

Did you read last week about the beggar girl in India who got a rank in the school final examinations? She seemed not to have spent her tome whining but used whatever means she had to prepare for the exam and she is now being offered scholarships to go to college.

How much worse than a beggar can you get in terms of social and economic inequality? That handicap didn`t faze this wonderful girl.

Soysauce, stick that fact up your rear end when you feel the urge to post something on the Chowk.

Abusive post.

All those interested in the area of caste/sect/religion - based discrimination should read an article by Gail Omvedt in the current issue of The Week.

http://www.the-week.com/21dec30/cover1.htm

For those who may not know, Gail is an American-born activist who is married to a Dalit, and has been a citizen of India for a long while now. I have found many of her writings to be rather low on understanding of the complexity and tempo of India - but this piece has surpried me: it is a fairly objecitive assessment of the broad changes afoot, and of both the challenges met and unmet, yet, by us all.

correction: the writer is Derrick Bell and not the athlete Derek Bell. Dr. Bell`s book was ``Faces at the Bottom of the Well``. He is a legal scholar and a civil rights activist and resigned from his position as president of Harvard because in protest of the dearth of Black women professors at Harvard. So, I guess we one example of someone who not only talked the talk, but walked the walk...

Harimou,

re:#32

Quite an interesting proposition...I mean I`ve heard the various cries of ``reverse racism`` among the John Birchs around the tri-state area and these protestations are the result of various affirmative action forays. But what would happen if the privileged sectors/classes/gender/races of a society voluntarily subjected themselves to the same quotas and conditions that had been imposed on nonprivileged sectors as a means of social justice? Would the extension of this idea be, to what extent would the privilleged sectors of this society be willing to work in positions that were social service oriented and low paying? Anyway...

This idea reminds me of a book by the African American writer and lawyer Derek Bell based his novel on the premise that given the opportunity and plausibility, Americans would ``ship`` African Americans to another planet rather than address the historical and economic inequities that American society was based on.

Mr. Arora,

Thanks for the great article!

regards

Ref Ref 12-head-Sadhna #: 46

[Go read post #12 again this time with your senile hypermetropia presbyopia & glaucoma Cataract corrected eyes!

The article speaks of INDIA --fool & india is not HINDU .In fact India is subcontinent consisting of 2 muslim nations Pakistan & bangladesh]

Good that your post is NOT talking about Hindu. Then a mufukka like you can provide the explanation since you were born in India and got your MBBS in India, right?

So, I still was right in asking you to get a Hindu scripture that says Yellamma is a Hindu goddess. Otherwise, you can write an interact attributing it to the Sufi influence on pure Islam.

Saxena was right. I am trying to talk with a chimpanzee here, except that real chimps have some use as in medical experiments and in the first flights into space.

A nice read. I`ll just make a couple of points:

Your question: ``Why is the caste hierearchy so important to upper-class Hinuds?`` Is it really? I guess it is. But it`s reducing from generation to generation, as value systems shift and a whole new world opens up. How many of your friends married for love, as opposed to your father`s? Give it time.

Arun Shourie, whom you seem to view as some kind of snake in the grass, is not an EVIL person, I don`t think. His point of view is not unique: a lot of students who found that their chances at a bright future were suddenly going to reduce by an enormous percentage back in 1989 felt they were being hard done by. Especially in urban India where the current generation hardly feels any `advantage` of being born `privileged`. Shourie`s point of view was also not 100% wrong in the sense that a lot of riff-raff got through the holes in the system just because they were in the right place at the right time. Enough horror stories abound about students with pathetic marks making the grade only becasue of a caste certificate. Having seen enough careers ruined by this phenomenon, I wouldn`t be so casually dismissive about it.

Your example of the number of scams and blunders by the engineers, doctors and scientists who emerged as a result of the reservation policy is also rather funny. Firstly, it would take at least a generation before the effects of the change if any, were to become observable. Secondly, nature has a way of restoring balance, or at least, reaching a new stable equilibrium. It`s really stupid to assume that the overall level of a doctor/engineer/whatever would drop drastically because of the reservation policy. At most there would be a temporary dip. But let`s not discount the suffering of those first sacrificial lambs on the altar of equality. Simply put, they were screwed. Royally.

Your conversion theories are also slightly misguided because:

(a). How many hindus converted to Islam and Christianity by making a rational evaluation of the choices available?

(b). Neo-Buddist conversions were purely led by Dr. Ambedkar and his avowed anti-Hinduism. The principles of Buddhism were hardly imbibed, the sole idea being to get as far away from the hindu fold as possible.

(c). If conversion to Islam and Christianity did little to change the `status` of those who converted, maybe those who converted them with false promises of manna need to be examined, not the concept of caste itself.

At the end of the day, you have tried to link everything bad in today`s India, from inefficiency to corruption to the `brain drain` on the caste system. Which makes you no different from those who blame the same set of problems on the Muslim invasions, British rule, Nehruvian socialsim, the Congress, Manu, the Rigveda and whatever else is available. Which does precious little to tackle the basic issue: we need to take responsibilty for ourselves and our actions. Allocating blame is so easy, and it`s also a great way of avoiding taking any responsibility.

My advice: stop feeling superior/ inferior/ guilty/ outraged/ self-pitying/ angry/ anti-social/ iconoclastic and start living life on your own terms. Might be a small start, but if we all do it, maybe we won`t be so depressed about it all the time.

Cheers,

Sound.

Pak deploys medium range missiles along LoC

PTI

Jammu, December 25



Pakistan has deployed Medium Range Ballistic Missile Batteries (MRBBs) along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Poonch sectors in an action that will further escalate the tension between the two countries.

Pakistan`s strategic units have been engaged in the past 24 hours in deploying MRBBs along the LoC in Jammu and Poonch sectors, defence sources told PTI here on Tuesday night.

``It is disturbing that MRBBs have been deployed along the LoC, particularly in some sensitive areas in Jammu sector,`` the sources said.

``We apprehend that Pakistan`s strategic units may use ballistic missiles in Jammu sector. We are keeping a close watch,`` they said.

How can India fight Pak & China Together ,WHEN IN 62 THEY WERE FRIED LIKE FRIES in Cows Animal Fat Shortening at the NEFA Mc Mennons Joint.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/251201/detNAT06.asp

China toes Pakistan line on Kashmir, calls it core issue

Udayan Namboodiri

(New Delhi, December 24)





On the eve of Prime Minister Zhu Rongji`s visit in New Delhi, China has struck a jarring note on Kashmir.

A senior official of the Chinese Foreign Ministry has described it as the ``core issue`` in Indo-Pakistan relations on the last day of General Pervez Musharraf`s four-day official visit to the country.

The remark has left the government stunned. South Block has established contact with Beijing for a clarification.

Sources said that the remark was made by the deputy director general of the Chinese foreign office. Indian diplomats in Beijing are believed to be seeking the Chinese version of what the official said.

The Musharraf`s visit to China was marked by some anti-India rhetoric. The Pakistani leader and his chief spokesman, Major General Rashid Qureshi, both claimed in their interactions with the Pakistani media that China had offered to play the ``mediator`` role in Kashmir.

What is surprising is that though Beijing consistently maintained in the past that it viewed Kashmir as a bilateral matter, it did not officially deny the visiting Pakistani leader`s remarks.

Of course, a formal Chinese make-up to India can be expected over the next few days on this. But the fact remains that New Delhi`s sensitivities have been hurt.

But how will China explain its gift of a loan package for Pakistan-occupied Kashmir? Musha-rraf secured an agreement during his trip ostensibly to develop infrastructure in PoK and the Northern Areas. The diplomatic import of this deal is not missed in New Delhi. It amounts to a direct Chinese rebuff, sources say, to India`s legitimate claim over PoK.

According to one official, the Chinese move is loaded with interpretations.

It is not simply a piece of economic assistance but at one level a message to India of Beijing`s unstinted support to the Pak-sponsored moves towards the divisibility of Kashmir. Secondly, the security implications of Pakistan building fresh roads in PoK cannot be overstated, say experts.

The Janus-faced India policy of China is also manifested in the dialogue process for solution of the vexed border question. In recent months, China and India have held two rounds of talks at the experts group level on the contentious Line of Actual Control (LAC).

In addition, the joint working group on the LAC has met. But, in spite of its commitment to dialogue, Beijing has been pressuring India to accept its proposal to open a border trading post in Sikkim in spite of the fact that China does not recognise India`s sovereign right over the state.

India has been quite sensitive to China`s feelings on the Dalai Lama and Taiwan.

But China`s response to the Parliament attack has been less than unequivocal in terms of support. Though condemning the attack, Beijing has twice stated the need for ``restraint`` on India`s part. Of course, South Block has glossed over this curious stand.

re: harimau #41

...you`re trying to get a chimpanzee to understand Maxwell`s Equations...

anil saari arora,

i have to commend you for keeping your cool so elegantly. that shows class, something some interactors here need desperately.

For MaheshG #20

Thank you for correcting me re. the correct spelling of Murugan`s name.