Caste, Technology and Religious Conversions in India

re: soysauce

{{Moron: There are lots of indians who have come thru the reservation system that are very competent and accomplished and are better humans than you could ever hope to be. I can name names but I`m sure they wouldn`t want me to drag their names into an argument with a guttersnipe like you}}

...and he said otherwise?...looks the whole friggin point of his argument flew over your head faster than the lice crawling across it...me thinks that makes you the moron, not him...

Ref 12-head-Sadhna #: 12

I want you to go find an authentic Hindu scripture that defines Yellamma to be a Hindu goddess. Yellamma is not a Sanskrit name. Yellamma is thus not a Hindu goddess but a tribal goddess of parts of Andhra and Karnataka. Why should a Hindu be asked to explain the phenomenon of devadasis, let alone apologize for it, when this is a tribal tradition that has been handed down through some ``noble`` savages?

Go and read the Vedas. The only gods mentioned are Indra (god of the thunderbolt), Vishnu, Vayu (god of wind), Varuna (god of water), Agni (god of fire) and Rudra. Take those forces of nature out and you only have Vishnu and Rudra as additional gods. Tell me where Yellamma comes into Hinduism. In India, if you don`t declare yourself to be a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jain, Zorastrian or Jew, you are automatically counted as Hindu. It may be the right term because Hindu comes from India but Hinduism is not my religion. Mine has no name but is known as the Sanatana Dharma (The Eternal Way). So take your mythical Hinduism and ask those who worship Yellamma where in the scriptures Yellamma has been declared to be a goddess and where in the scriptures Yellamma requests virgins to be dedicated as devadasis.

It is good that India doesn`t have active volcanoes otherwise pea-brained idiots like you will be declaring those virgins sacrificed to the volcanoes to be another barbarism of Hinduism.

Screw you all. My religion calls for me to worship those elements of Nature that have goven me sustenance throughout the ages and that is what I do. Take your questions about Yellamma or the Goddess of Small-Pox to the ``noble`` savages that you all espouse.

harimau:

So you do not like the quota system.Fine.But please do no forget that 100s of generations of brahmins have been beneficiaries of the quota system--except then it was by divine command,you were born into it!For thousands of years this caste system in nothing but a quota system which resulted in denying the right even to a brahmin to take up a manual(but honourable job) instead of coercing him to become a mendicant,living on alms & hoodwinking others by such `professions` as rekha-rakshaks.

Varna was nothing but a quota system which produced an incompetent medicine man because he could not pursue career as a boot-maker for which he had an an aptitude & talent.

So just grin & bear it now.It is not a pleasant experience to be on the other side but then one always has the freedom to become the best toilet manufacturer in India---who can hire health professionals(MDs) or astrologers(for fengshui).

Think about it.

Ref Lajwanti aka 12-head #: 28

I forgot to add this.

Based on the research showing that Urdu pre-dates Sanskrit, Romila Thapar would be pleased to offer full academic positions for these researchers since their views coincide with the research direction at Jawaharlal Nehru University.

Ref meen-kuzhambu #: 36

[The article is way too long for me to get through. I`m not criticising you as i believe it is very important to debate the caste issue as fully as we can and more. But long article tend to put folks (like me) off.]

Yep. Your brain gets tired, doesn`t it? Why would people like you even think when you can have Dina Thanthi (the daily fishwrapper and birdcage liner of Tamil Nadu) do your thinking for you? How did you manage to get a college degree?

[Think of all the taboos that you have grown up with. Which of those would you violate on your own accord? Caste is another taboo. Transcending conditioning is a very hard thing to do.]

My friend just told me that a nephew (a Tamil Brahmin) is marrying a Muslim girl he is working with.

Let us take all those DK/DMK/AIADMK and all other self-described ``reformists`` of Tamil Nadu. Has any one of their thousands of party functionaries married a Muslim? I would settle for anecdotal evidence of one such marriage.

[The concern that a physican that came thru the reservation system may not be competent is understandable. BUT, it is a myth that most everyone that came thru the system as it used to be was competent. What used to be a factor previously was the connections you had or where your relatives were placed. The reservation system has supplanted the old system and has democratized it. Arun Shourie may be right but only partly..]

If you examined the applications for professional colleges, rank-ordered them by their grades in Grade 12, and simply took in the top n number of people where n is the number of seats in professional colleges, you would have a merit-based system. Kerala actually used to do this in the 60s. It was Tamil Nadu that introduced the concept of an interview where questions like the height of Everest would be used to determine if you are qualified to be a doctor or engineer. This, with of course 87% reservations for the ``backward classes`` as opposed to the Mandal Commission recommendation of, what, 50%?

Tell me of one person, a Pallan or Paraiyan, who has been able to leave his backbreaking work in the fields of Tamil Nadu and has been able to go through the educational system becoming a doctor, engineer or architect. If a Dalit became one, he was already at least a lower-middle-class person, with access to education.

All you have done is to use the quota system to transfer jobs from the meritorious people to those who deserve to be dumped in the trash heap of humankind. Having done nothing to get into the professional colleges, they of course bring political pressure to be able to graduate too. These idiots then get government jobs which they treat as another entitlement where they should get a monthly salary for doing nothing; in fact for obstructing the normal flow of work by demanding bribes.

This has reduced the city of Madras to such a state that the ordinary lowly job of collecting trash from the streets (you would think that this requires no particular skills) has been handed over to Waste Management, Inc.`s Singapore branch. We are not talking about building rockets or the Light Combat Aircraft here. I would suggest that with this level of competence in civil and sanitary engineering, we have reached the absolute nadir of the quota system but I am sure you would disagree until Madras is buried in trash 150 feet high.

If you truly want to contract out a function with the aim of improving the future, I would seriously suggest that you fcukers ask foreigners to take over the job of reproducing the next generation of Indians.

#31 anNy

That was sweet of you to say.

Harimou probably grew up in an environment where certain words were freely used between brothers and friends. You and i are far removed from that environment. You better not inquire further...

Moron: There are lots of indians who have come thru the reservation system that are very competent and accomplished and are better humans than you could ever hope to be. I can name names but I`m sure they wouldn`t want me to drag their names into an argument with a guttersnipe like you - therefore, i`ll just mention that one of them recently won an american physical society award and is a very well-known theorist.

The article is way too long for me to get through. I`m not criticising you as i believe it is very important to debate the caste issue as fully as we can and more. But long article tend to put folks (like me) off.

At any rate, why do the upper castes continue to discriminate? There`s a flippant (but true) answer: Because they happen to be at the top. There`s a not so flippant answer as well: we have been so conditioned that it`s hard for us to change. Think of all the taboos that you have grown up with. Which of those would you violate on your own accord? Caste is another taboo. Transcending conditioning is a very hard thing to do. Even among the dalits there is some hierarchy and rules regarding intercourse among the various jatis. It`s not as tho they benefit economically or socially from this arrangement. But the certitude of where they stand relative to all others more than compensates for the burden of having to adhere to all these rules.

I should also mention that it`s not always that the so-called upper castes enjoy special privileges. There`s a subcaste among the brahmins (the temple pujaris) who are at the lowest among the brahmins and on occasion may even rank below some of the other non-brahmin high castes. There are also places (in southern tamil nadu, for example) where the brahmins are subservient to the so-called lower castes who have the economic and political power. This precedes the advent of the various ``dravidian`` parties in tamil nadu.

The concern that a physican that came thru the reservation system may not be competent is understandable. BUT, it is a myth that most everyone that came thru the system as it used to be was competent. What used to be a factor previously was the connections you had or where your relatives were placed. The reservation system has supplanted the old system and has democratized it. Arun Shourie may be right but only partly..

Re: #31

anNy,

``whats a thayoli? a thaeli, bag?``

Boy! you HAD to ask, didn`t you?! The said word means mo`fker in tamil.

Contrary to what northies/pakis imagine, the southie languages have rich scope for invective that can make the northie maa-behen variety appear mildly amusing. A recent I overheard:``I`ll fry fish in your a-hole``!

In this anonymous chowk forum, Hari-ji was only showing us his quality brahmin (non-quota) upbringing.

regards,

Anil Saari Arora:

You asked me why non-resident Indians are averse to collective self-analysis. Let me give you one example of denial of reality in India. You can explain why there is this refusal to accept historical evidence.

The language Tamil has a rich poetic history. They claim to have had three distinct poetry associations named, paradoxically enough in Sanskrit, Sanghams. The total length these sanghams existed according to Tamil legends is 10,000 years! The claim is made that the last of these sanghams was already extinct two millennia ago.

There is one poem in Tamil that describes an encounter between the poet and a fisherwoman. The poet asks the fisherwoman for food and the fisherwoman refuses saying that she is an Untouchable (Dalit, in today`s terms) and cannot possibly give food to the poet.

Even if you discount the legends regarding the sanghams, this poem dates back to at least the 6th century AD. This means that Untouchability was practiced by the local Tamils even before the incursion of any Aryan/Brahmin/Hindu influence on these natives. Why would they not discuss this poem in classes in Tamil Nadu asking the students to introspect a little and figure out whether Untouchability was practiced by the noble Tamil race? Why is Karunanidhi (a native Telugu speaker) or MGR (a Malayalam speaker) allowed to parade their love of Tamil and get elected on the basis of Brahmin-bashing when the Tamil`s own poetry accuses the Tamils of practicing Untouchability? An American professor of Tamil has written an 80-page treatise on this one poem alone. Why is this being suppressed in Tamil Nadu? Political necessity?

Can that thayoli soysauce answer this? Of course, that mofo hasn`t heard of this poem because he probably went to an English-medium school and is now a code coolie.

But them bashing Hinduism and by extension brahmins gets you votes if you are a politician and a secure job at Jawaharlal Nehru University or Bharathidasan University if you are a pseudo-academic.

Ref Lajwanti aka 12-head #: 28

[Take THAT HINDIAN HOGEMONISTS!!!!!! esp Harimiaowmiaowmiaow1

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2001-weekly/nos-23-12-2001/lit.htm#4

Separating Urdu from Sanskrit]

More pseudo-science from Pakistan.

Sanskrit`s grammar was defined by Panini. Here is something on Panini:



Born: about 520 BC in Shalatula (near Attock), now Pakistan

Died: about 460 BC in India



Panini was born in Shalatula, a town near to Attock on the Indus river in present day Pakistan. The dates given for Panini are pure guesses. Experts give dates in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th century BC and there is also no agreement among historians about the extent of the work which he undertook. What is in little doubt is that, given the period in which he worked, he is one of the most innovative people in the whole development of knowledge. We will say a little more below about how historians have gone about trying to pinpoint the date when Panini lived.

Panini was a Sanskrit grammarian who gave a comprehensive and scientific theory of phonetics, phonology, and morphology. Sanskrit was the classical literary language of the Indian Hindus and Panini is considered the founder of the language and literature. It is interesting to note that the word ``Sanskrit`` means ``complete`` or ``perfect`` and it was thought of as the divine language, or language of the gods.

A treatise called Astadhyayi (or Astaka ) is Panini`s major work. It consists of eight chapters, each subdivided into quarter chapters. In this work Panini distinguishes between the language of sacred texts and the usual language of communication. Panini gives formal production rules and definitions to describe Sanskrit grammar. Starting with about 1700 basic elements like nouns, verbs, vowels, consonants he put them into classes. The construction of sentences, compound nouns etc. is explained as ordered rules operating on underlying structures in a manner similar to modern theory. In many ways Panini`s constructions are similar to the way that a mathematical function is defined today. Joseph writes in [2]:-

[Sanskrit`s] potential for scientific use was greatly enhanced as a result of the thorough systemisation of its grammar by Panini. ... On the basis of just under 4000 sutras [rules expressed as aphorisms], he built virtually the whole structure of the Sanskrit language, whose general `shape` hardly changed for the next two thousand years. ... An indirect consequence of Panini`s efforts to increase the linguistic facility of Sanskrit soon became apparent in the character of scientific and mathematical literature. This may be brought out by comparing the grammar of Sanskrit with the geometry of Euclid - a particularly apposite comparison since, whereas mathematics grew out of philosophy in ancient Greece, it was ... partly an outcome of linguistic developments in India.

Joseph goes on to make a convincing argument for the algebraic nature of Indian mathematics arising as a consequence of the structure of the Sanskrit language. In particular he suggests that algebraic reasoning, the Indian way of representing numbers by words, and ultimately the development of modern number systems in India, are linked through the structure of language.

Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini`s notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today`s theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago.

At the beginning of this article we mentioned that certain concepts had been attributed to Panini by certain historians which others dispute. One such theory was put forward by B Indraji in 1876. He claimed that the Brahmi numerals developed out of using letters or syllables as numerals. Then he put the finishing touches to the theory by suggesting that Panini in the eighth century BC (earlier than most historians place Panini) was the first to come up with the idea of using letters of the alphabet to represent numbers.

There are a number of pieces of evidence to support Indraji`s theory that the Brahmi numerals developed from letters or syllables. However it is not totally convincing since, to quote one example, the symbols for 1, 2 and 3 clearly don`t come from letters but from one, two and three lines respectively. Even if one accepts the link between the numerals and the letters, making Panini the originator of this idea would seem to have no more behind it than knowing that Panini was one of the most innovative geniuses that world has known so it is not unreasonable to believe that he might have made this step too.

There are other works which are closely associated with the Astadhyayi which some historians attribute to Panini, others attribute to authors before Panini, others attribute to authors after Panini. This is an area where there are many theories but few, if any, hard facts.

We also promised to return to a discussion of Panini`s dates. There has been no lack of work on this topic so the fact that there are theories which span several hundreds of years is not the result of lack of effort, rather an indication of the difficulty of the topic. The usual way to date such texts would be to examine which authors are referred to and which authors refer to the work. One can use this technique and see who Panini mentions.

There are ten scholars mentioned by Panini and we must assume from the context that these ten have all contributed to the study of Sanskrit grammar. This in itself, of course, indicates that Panini was not a solitary genius but, like Newton, had ``stood on the shoulders of giants``. Now Panini must have lived later than these ten but this is absolutely no help in providing dates since we have absolutely no knowledge of when any of these ten lived.

What other internal evidence is there to use? Well of course Panini uses many phrases to illustrate his grammar any these have been examined meticulously to see if anything is contained there to indicate a date. To give an example of what we mean: if we were to pick up a text which contained as an example ``I take the train to work every day`` we would know that it had to have been written after railways became common. Let us illustrate with two actual examples from the Astadhyayi which have been the subject of much study. The first is an attempt to see whether there is evidence of Greek influence. Would it be possible to find evidence which would mean that the text had to have been written after the conquests of Alexander the Great? There is a little evidence of Greek influence, but there was Greek influence on this north east part of the Indian subcontinent before the time of Alexander. Nothing conclusive has been identified.

Another angle is to examine a reference Panini makes to nuns. now some argue that these must be Buddhist nuns and therefore the work must have been written after Buddha. A nice argument but there is a counter argument which says that there were Jaina nuns before the time of Buddha and Panini`s reference could equally well be to them. Again the evidence is inconclusive.

There are references by others to Panini. However it would appear that the Panini to whom most refer is a poet and although some argue that these are the same person, most historians agree that the linguist and the poet are two different people. Again this is inconclusive evidence.

Let us end with an evaluation of Panini`s contribution by Cardona in [1]:-

Panini`s grammar has been evaluated from various points of view. After all these different evaluations, I think that the grammar merits asserting ... that it is one of the greatest monuments of human intelligence.

[Article by: J J O`Connor and E F Robertson]

Urdu, on the other hand, is derived from the Altaic-Turkic languages spoken by the Moghul invaders. The word Urdu itself is thought to be

derived from `horde` and means `the language of the army camps`. So don`t try to build a pedigree for this b@stard language. It won`t wash.

Let us take a poll right here.

The reality: Forward castes amongst Hindus pay for the oppression in times past of the Dalits by being forced into a quota system that doesn`t recognize merit.

The proposition: For 1000 years of oppression of Hindus, Indian Muslims must be forced into a rigid quota system that limits their participation in professional education and government jobs to 2% of the available seats.

Everybody gets to say their say right here on Chowk. Everybody gets one vote except of course Studebaker who gets 15-18 votes depending on how many nicks he has.

The poll is open to Pakistanis too. So we can have Ali1, ylh, Urstruly, Romair, Tahmed321, etc., voting.

Let us see where your intellectual honesty (of which there is pathetic little on display here) goes when your ox is gored.

Let us watch in amusement as the hand-wringing apologetic namby-pamby limp-wristed brainwashed Hindus fall all over themselves to vote against the proposition along with all the Mughal-wannabes in Pakistan who already claim that Muslims are being discriminated against. Anil Saari Arora can vote too and get all his favorite historians to vote.

Let us get the total intellectual vacuity of all these idiots on full display here on Chowk. At least we will know who has used his god-given gift of a brain to store and regurgitate the absolute rubbish that passes for education in India and has never used the anaytic powers that such a brain may possess.

haimau:

``Anger? I smile as I type my replies knowing fully well that thayolis like soysauce will hide like cockroahes under a light and true to form, idiots like you will march in where wise men fear to tread``

bhaiharimau- why do you dislike all the nice indians? soyasauce and shankar are two of the insaanlike indians on chowk and you call them cockroaches. pls dont. whats a thayoli? a thaeli, bag?

Back in the 50s, a doctor named Shirodkar who had had his medical training before all this affirmative action nonsense pioneered a new approach to treatment of weak uteruses and his method is still referred to in medical textbooks as Shirodkar`s procedure. [Shirodkar, V.N., 1955. A new method of operative treatment for habitual abortions in the second trimester of pregnancy. Antiseptic 52, 299­300.]

Has any one of the quota doctors produced a single advance noteworthy enough to have his name attached to his approach or to have his name mentioned in a medical textbook?

When you decide mediocrity is better than excellence, you turn a great nation into a fourth-rate one.

If you have all the money that you need, would you agree to have a close relative such as your wife, child, mother or father treated for a life-threatening illness by a quota doctor?

Ref 12-head #: 13

[A reddy (from.A.p.) obviously a brahmin by name irself,in silicon valley was running traffic in shudra girls from his village & used them as slaves here in U.S.A. !! Until murder of one of them lead to exposure of multi millioneer dollar ring of fraud extortion,visa missappropriations,trafficing in sex workers,building code violation,.& inhuman treatment of young shudra girls etc.etc.]

Pathetic 12-head who has misappropriated Sadna`s name by adding an `h`. You see brahmins where none exist. A Reddy is a khamma by caste not a Brahmin. Khammas are amongst the richest in Andhra, owning tens of acres of land along the Krishna and Godavari rivers and in the deltas. So, blame the Balireddy incident on a god-damn middle-level caste in India, not on the Brahmins, who doesn`t stop accumulating wealth when gets to $50 million in the US but imports underprivileged women from his native village for sexual slavery. But don`t blame him too much; he probably learnt it from the Ummah. Do you recall the Andhra Muslim girl aged 12 who was married off to a 65-year old Saudi? So, before you post about a film about devadasis, post some articles about the unlimited sexual appetites of your brethren in religion.

Take THAT HINDIAN HOGEMONISTS!!!!!! esp Harimiaowmiaowmiaow1

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2001-weekly/nos-23-12-2001/lit.htm#4

Separating Urdu from Sanskrit

Pakistani intellectuals have been looking for the roots of their separate identity in the remote past for the last two decades. They are not satisfied with the two-nation theory propounded by Allama Iqbal, according to which religion was the basis of nationhood and accordingly the Hindus and Muslims of the Indian sub-continent were separate nations.

They go deeper. They want to show that Pakistan and its culture has its roots in the prehistoric eras.They believe that the Indus and the Gangetic valleys have always been home to separate civilizations. Being the heir to the Indus valley civilization, Pakistan is a geographic entity whose roots go back to time immemorial.



Many intellectuals have taken pains to substantiate this theory. Professor Qudrat Ullah Fatmi, to my knowledge, was the first to write a book on it. Aenul Haq Faridkoti and Prof. Mohammad Asif followed him. However, Aitazaz Ashan`s book titled Sindh Saga carries the best and long drawn out exposition of this concept. Now Khalid Hasan Qadiri has joined this group of theoreticians. In one of his articles published in the current issue of the monthly Al-Ma `arif of Lahore under the title of `Rough notes on Urdu` he has come up with the claim that the Urdu language has nothing to do with Sanskrit and that its roots are far deeper than this language of the gods and goddesses.

Hitherto, the generally held belief has been that Urdu came into being as a result of social contacts between the Muslims who came to India during the middle ages and the native population. So the language was taken to be a cross-breed of Turko-Persian-Arabic vocables with the local dialects. This is, in a nutshell, the view held by such eminent linguists as G.A. Griesson and Sir Charles Lyall, to mention only two. This theory presupposed that these dialects themselves were based upon, or rather were a by-product of Sanskrit.

Khalid Hasan Qadiri want us to understand that the situation is not as simple or straight forward as it seems or is presented. One has to go very far back in history or rather to prehistory, and turnover many strata of periods of time.

Going back in history, he reaches the conclusion that Urdu has its roots in the languages of the Munda tribes who were the inhabitants of the Indus Valley in pre-Dravidian periods. This view is supposed to be based on the latest excavations of Amri, Nal, Roper, Rajasthan and Kathyawar.

In this way we are led to belive that the Urdu language has a very well-defined and clear-cut grammar, absolutely different from Sanskrit in every respect. The very basic philosophy governing the grammatical structure of these two languages is totally different. And by any stretch of imagination one cannot state Urdu to have emanated from the sacred language of the Hindus. Grammatically speaking Urdu owes nothing to Sanskrit. Hence it cannot be grouped with the Aryan language either. It clearly belongs to some non-Aryan group of languages. And this view is supposed to give us us some solace.

HARIMOU

Are you happy or sad by such sentiment.

If happy then ,you succeed

If not ,then for sake of commongood ,dispell your ignorence & you will be a better man.

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Hate Rally in India, Indians Burn Pakistan Flag - 2001-12-23 01:32:57