Caste, Technology and Religious Conversions in India
Anil S Arora December 21, 2001
#24 Posted by hamzadafaqui on December 23, 2001 3:35:10 pm
Specially for anNy---others also welcome.
When will we learn to trust our 95% people who are more intelligent & smarter than us---the english-knowers?
__________________________________________________
Published on Monday, December 17, 2001 in the Toronto Sun
Is the Gun Smoking?
`Experts` Disagree on bin Laden Home Video
by Eric Margolis
WASHINGTON -- In our media age, it was inevitable we`d finally see terrorist home videos. How long, one wonders, before they come out in DVD format?
The Osama bin Laden home video released by the U.S. last Thursday gave a fascinating look at the head of a fanatical Muslim cult receiving a visiting Saudi sheik. According to the accompanying translation from Arabic to English - made by the U.S. government and checked by two U.S.-based Arabic experts - bin Laden clearly appears to voice his culpability for the suicide attacks on New York and Washington, D.C.
In the most damning admissions, a gleeful-looking bin Laden says, ``We calculated in advance the number of casualties from (sic) the enemy who would be killed based on the position of the tower.`` And, ``We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day.``
The U.S. government is delighted by the smoking gun tape, which was mysteriously ``found`` in Afghanistan a few days ago. The White House says the tape should dispel any lingering doubts bin Laden was behind the Sept. 11 mass killings.
But two other Arabic experts say the tape`s audio quality is so poor that almost nothing bin Laden says on it can be verified. To my ears, well accustomed to Arabic, half of bin Laden`s words were inaudible. The translation was sometimes out of sync with the action on screen. Bin Laden`s statements looked cut up and edited.
Cynics suggest the tape was a forgery made by Russian intelligence or the U.S. government, with incriminating statements spliced into an otherwise boring exchange of pleasantries between bin Laden and a visiting admirer. This is possible. In 1990, the U.S. used retouched satellite photos to convince the Saudis that Iraq was about to invade - which it was not.
A KGB PLANT?
The old Soviet KGB was extremely fond of planting fake documents to embarrass the West. Russia wants to keep George Bush`s crusade going because it takes heat off Moscow`s own brutal war in Chechnya, distracts the U.S., and earns cash IOUs from Americans.
But regardless of whether the tape is real or a fake, there remains little doubt that al-Qaida was behind the attacks on the U.S. But, as Prince Nayef, head of Saudi security observed last week, Osama bin Laden is largely a figurehead. Its real leaders, said the prince, echoing this column`s view, remain as yet unknown and are likely outside Afghanistan.
Two of al-Qaida`s leaders are in Afghanistan: its Egyptian CEO Ayman al-Zawahiri - known to all as ``the doctor`` - and his No. 2, Abu Zubaydah. They are still believed alive and in hiding with bin Laden. The late Mohammed Atef, a former Egyptian policeman, was considered the military leader of al-Qaida until he was killed by a U.S. bomb.
The roots of al-Qaida and other loosely linked anti-American organizations remain where they originated: in Egypt. Even though 15 of 19 of the hijackers on Sept. 11 were Saudis, it`s likely the operation was planned in Egypt by members of two militant groups, Egyptian Jihad and Gamma al-Islamia, with Osama bin Laden serving as a symbolic spiritual guide.
In this sense, bin Laden was re-enacting the role of the dreaded medieval head of the cult of the Hashishins, Hassan al-Sabbah, known as Sheik al-Jebel, or Old Man of the Mountain. From his lair in the Syrian mountains, the sheik`s suicide assassins, crazed on hashish and armed with poisoned daggers, terrorized much of the Muslim world and the Crusader states of the Levant. The Mongols finally stormed the sheik`s aerie, Alamut, and put a bloody end to the Hashishins, from whom we get the term ``assassin.``
Americans need no more convincing that bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks. Washington released the self-serving tapes to convince the many doubting Abduls of the Muslim world of bin Laden`s guilt.
Some Muslims will certainly accept the tape at face value and turn with disgust against bin Laden as a fanatical mass murderer. Few Muslims accepted his wild claims or calls for jihad against the West. But one suspects many Muslims and other Third Worlders will still believe bin Laden and his henchmen gave the United States what it deserved, payback for decades of bloody meddling in their affairs - revenge, as the tape mentioned, for the ``martyrs`` of Palestine.
Third Worlders do not always accept our western view that when states kill huge numbers of innocent civilians, c`est la vie, but when private enterprise killers strike, that`s unacceptable terrorism.
To many, the fanatical Osama bin Laden will still represent the hand of retribution against the arrogant western powers and their local satraps. New avengers will follow in his footsteps. Suicide bombers are the poor man`s version of cruise missiles, helicopter gunships, B-52s, fuel-air explosives and 15,000-lb. bombs.
Copyright © 2001, Canoe Limited Partnership
###
When will we learn to trust our 95% people who are more intelligent & smarter than us---the english-knowers?
__________________________________________________
Published on Monday, December 17, 2001 in the Toronto Sun
Is the Gun Smoking?
`Experts` Disagree on bin Laden Home Video
by Eric Margolis
WASHINGTON -- In our media age, it was inevitable we`d finally see terrorist home videos. How long, one wonders, before they come out in DVD format?
The Osama bin Laden home video released by the U.S. last Thursday gave a fascinating look at the head of a fanatical Muslim cult receiving a visiting Saudi sheik. According to the accompanying translation from Arabic to English - made by the U.S. government and checked by two U.S.-based Arabic experts - bin Laden clearly appears to voice his culpability for the suicide attacks on New York and Washington, D.C.
In the most damning admissions, a gleeful-looking bin Laden says, ``We calculated in advance the number of casualties from (sic) the enemy who would be killed based on the position of the tower.`` And, ``We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day.``
The U.S. government is delighted by the smoking gun tape, which was mysteriously ``found`` in Afghanistan a few days ago. The White House says the tape should dispel any lingering doubts bin Laden was behind the Sept. 11 mass killings.
But two other Arabic experts say the tape`s audio quality is so poor that almost nothing bin Laden says on it can be verified. To my ears, well accustomed to Arabic, half of bin Laden`s words were inaudible. The translation was sometimes out of sync with the action on screen. Bin Laden`s statements looked cut up and edited.
Cynics suggest the tape was a forgery made by Russian intelligence or the U.S. government, with incriminating statements spliced into an otherwise boring exchange of pleasantries between bin Laden and a visiting admirer. This is possible. In 1990, the U.S. used retouched satellite photos to convince the Saudis that Iraq was about to invade - which it was not.
A KGB PLANT?
The old Soviet KGB was extremely fond of planting fake documents to embarrass the West. Russia wants to keep George Bush`s crusade going because it takes heat off Moscow`s own brutal war in Chechnya, distracts the U.S., and earns cash IOUs from Americans.
But regardless of whether the tape is real or a fake, there remains little doubt that al-Qaida was behind the attacks on the U.S. But, as Prince Nayef, head of Saudi security observed last week, Osama bin Laden is largely a figurehead. Its real leaders, said the prince, echoing this column`s view, remain as yet unknown and are likely outside Afghanistan.
Two of al-Qaida`s leaders are in Afghanistan: its Egyptian CEO Ayman al-Zawahiri - known to all as ``the doctor`` - and his No. 2, Abu Zubaydah. They are still believed alive and in hiding with bin Laden. The late Mohammed Atef, a former Egyptian policeman, was considered the military leader of al-Qaida until he was killed by a U.S. bomb.
The roots of al-Qaida and other loosely linked anti-American organizations remain where they originated: in Egypt. Even though 15 of 19 of the hijackers on Sept. 11 were Saudis, it`s likely the operation was planned in Egypt by members of two militant groups, Egyptian Jihad and Gamma al-Islamia, with Osama bin Laden serving as a symbolic spiritual guide.
In this sense, bin Laden was re-enacting the role of the dreaded medieval head of the cult of the Hashishins, Hassan al-Sabbah, known as Sheik al-Jebel, or Old Man of the Mountain. From his lair in the Syrian mountains, the sheik`s suicide assassins, crazed on hashish and armed with poisoned daggers, terrorized much of the Muslim world and the Crusader states of the Levant. The Mongols finally stormed the sheik`s aerie, Alamut, and put a bloody end to the Hashishins, from whom we get the term ``assassin.``
Americans need no more convincing that bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks. Washington released the self-serving tapes to convince the many doubting Abduls of the Muslim world of bin Laden`s guilt.
Some Muslims will certainly accept the tape at face value and turn with disgust against bin Laden as a fanatical mass murderer. Few Muslims accepted his wild claims or calls for jihad against the West. But one suspects many Muslims and other Third Worlders will still believe bin Laden and his henchmen gave the United States what it deserved, payback for decades of bloody meddling in their affairs - revenge, as the tape mentioned, for the ``martyrs`` of Palestine.
Third Worlders do not always accept our western view that when states kill huge numbers of innocent civilians, c`est la vie, but when private enterprise killers strike, that`s unacceptable terrorism.
To many, the fanatical Osama bin Laden will still represent the hand of retribution against the arrogant western powers and their local satraps. New avengers will follow in his footsteps. Suicide bombers are the poor man`s version of cruise missiles, helicopter gunships, B-52s, fuel-air explosives and 15,000-lb. bombs.
Copyright © 2001, Canoe Limited Partnership
###
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#23 Posted by hamzadafaqui on December 23, 2001 3:35:10 pm
WORTH READING& SPREADING.
__________________________________________________
ON THE SUBJECT OF ``HATE SPEECH`` AND ``ANTI-SEMITISM``.
(Is Amr bil maaroof & Nihi unl Munkir becoming the order of the day---rejoice muslims,you`ve friends everywhere)
__________________________________________________
In the wake of the revelation of yet another spy scandal involving the Mossad, involving the arrests of the largest spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, and the existence of a huge system that allowed Israel to track telephone calls by media, politicians, law enforcement, indeed all Americans, as well as the means to eavesdrop on actual calls by using the wiretapping system built into the telephone system by an Israeli owned company, any and all reports of this scandal have been met with the charges of ``hate speech`` and ``anti-Semite``.
These phrases, ``hate speech`` and ``anti-Semite``, are well-worn devices to shut up a critic of Israel without having to answer the criticisms. Indeed they have been used so much that they have become red warning flags that the person using those phrases has something to hide and needs to shut down the discussion by any means possible. By screaming ``hate speech`` or ``anti-Semite``, the debate is over without actually examining the issues involved.
I`ve run this web site for over 8 years. You can check through the pre 9/11 version of What Really Happened for yourself to see if I have had any excessive preoccupation with Israel during that time. Only in recent weeks have I even mentioned Israel, and that solely because the ACTIONS of the government of Israel have called attention to Israel. In the wake of the spy arrests this is a story that people do need to know about, to know who else may be listening when that phone is picked up, if the phone tapping system was actually paid for with the money we send Israel every year, to know what intelligence service may be blackmailing our government and media, and to what purpose.
So, I`ve been getting a lot of email from people who ask ``Why do you hate the Jews``? The answer is that I don`t hate the Jews. I know a lot of Jews and count as my friends the ones who are as respectful of me as I am of them. My first wife was Jewish, which should erase once and for all that I came with any built in bias regarding the Jewish people.
What I hate are the actions of INDIVIDUALS. I hate the idea of someone spying on our nation`s citizens. I don`t like our own government to do it; why should I be any less opposed to a foreign government doing it? Why is it not reasonable to hate those who pry into our government, then use the information to coerce that government into actions contrary to the good of our own people? I hate that sort of behavior. All civilized people should. I would hate the perperators of the spy ring and the phone taping scandal if they were Russian, British, Lithuanian, Brazilian, whatever. That`s a perfectly normal response to this crime.
Hate gets a bum rap. In our politically correct society we are taught that it`s bad to hate at all, but I disagree. Hate can be a good thing. There are lots of things I hate and I am not ashamed to admit it. I hate liars. I hate thieves. I hate drug dealers. I hate corrupt politicians. I hate child molesters. These are hates that are good for the people to have. Maybe if more people allowed themselves to hate liars, thieves, druggies, and the corrupt, our nation wouldn`t be in the mess it`s in. Think about that for a while. Hate could actually save our country.
I hate those who presume to decide for us what we can and cannot see, hear, or read. I am firmly opposed to and have openly defied efforts by our own government to withhold from the people information the people need to make good decisions with. When the Israeli lobby coerces Fox News to erase the story about Israel`s spy ring, should I be less outraged at the concealment simply because the concealers are Israeli? To NOT speak out about a crime because the perpetrators are Israeli would be racist. Because this is EXACTLY what we are dealing with. Crimes. Espionage. Illegal wiretaps. Interference with investigations. Under the definitions in the USA Patriot bill, the coercion of Fox News to drop the espionage story is itself (technically) an act of terror.
Speaking of racism, the ideal held forth in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence is that no one race is superior to others; that no one race should rule by virtue of being a specific race. We even fought a civil war partly on that principle, and while the United States has not always lived up to that ideal, we have never surrendered it as our goal. So, when Arial Sharon openly bragged on October 3rd that, ``We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it``, why should I not find this statement objectionable, and anti-American? Why should I not feel something less than affection for the man who made that statement? Why should a reasonable citizen of this nation not wonder to what extent Sharon was speaking the truth, especially in light of the manner in which Fox News was forced to erase the Carl Cameron stories?
As seen in the subtitle above, the truth is ``hate speech`` only to those with something to hide. In the wake of the exposure of this latest spy scandal, the government of Israel might have expressed some public regret or shame over treating its purported friend, from whom it gets more foreign aid than is given to the entire continent of Africa, in such a shameful manner. Instead what we have seen is censorship of the American news by a foreign power, apparently with the permission of a compromised or complicit US Government, and the shrill cries of ``hate speech`` and ``anti-Semite`` hurled at anyone who dared presume to notice or comment on what Israel has been caught doing.
If you want to know why Israel is so much in the news it isn`t because of ``hate`` and it isn`t because of ``anti-Semitism``, it`s because foreign owned companies were caught bugging the phone system (including that of the White House) and foreign citizens have been arrested as part of the largest spy ring ever found in the United States. That is NEWS, no matter what nationality is involved. In the course of that reporting, it was revealed by a US official that evidence exists linking 9/11 to persons other than Muslim Arabs, but that this evidence is CLASSIFIED. That too is NEWS. Deal with it.
The good side to the Fox News incident is that for the first time, Americans got a good look at just how much power and influence over what we see and hear is being exercised. It doesn`t even matter who did it; that it was done at all is the lesson for our time.
And it is not ``hate`` to point that fact out.
__________________________________________________
ON THE SUBJECT OF ``HATE SPEECH`` AND ``ANTI-SEMITISM``.
(Is Amr bil maaroof & Nihi unl Munkir becoming the order of the day---rejoice muslims,you`ve friends everywhere)
__________________________________________________
In the wake of the revelation of yet another spy scandal involving the Mossad, involving the arrests of the largest spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, and the existence of a huge system that allowed Israel to track telephone calls by media, politicians, law enforcement, indeed all Americans, as well as the means to eavesdrop on actual calls by using the wiretapping system built into the telephone system by an Israeli owned company, any and all reports of this scandal have been met with the charges of ``hate speech`` and ``anti-Semite``.
These phrases, ``hate speech`` and ``anti-Semite``, are well-worn devices to shut up a critic of Israel without having to answer the criticisms. Indeed they have been used so much that they have become red warning flags that the person using those phrases has something to hide and needs to shut down the discussion by any means possible. By screaming ``hate speech`` or ``anti-Semite``, the debate is over without actually examining the issues involved.
I`ve run this web site for over 8 years. You can check through the pre 9/11 version of What Really Happened for yourself to see if I have had any excessive preoccupation with Israel during that time. Only in recent weeks have I even mentioned Israel, and that solely because the ACTIONS of the government of Israel have called attention to Israel. In the wake of the spy arrests this is a story that people do need to know about, to know who else may be listening when that phone is picked up, if the phone tapping system was actually paid for with the money we send Israel every year, to know what intelligence service may be blackmailing our government and media, and to what purpose.
So, I`ve been getting a lot of email from people who ask ``Why do you hate the Jews``? The answer is that I don`t hate the Jews. I know a lot of Jews and count as my friends the ones who are as respectful of me as I am of them. My first wife was Jewish, which should erase once and for all that I came with any built in bias regarding the Jewish people.
What I hate are the actions of INDIVIDUALS. I hate the idea of someone spying on our nation`s citizens. I don`t like our own government to do it; why should I be any less opposed to a foreign government doing it? Why is it not reasonable to hate those who pry into our government, then use the information to coerce that government into actions contrary to the good of our own people? I hate that sort of behavior. All civilized people should. I would hate the perperators of the spy ring and the phone taping scandal if they were Russian, British, Lithuanian, Brazilian, whatever. That`s a perfectly normal response to this crime.
Hate gets a bum rap. In our politically correct society we are taught that it`s bad to hate at all, but I disagree. Hate can be a good thing. There are lots of things I hate and I am not ashamed to admit it. I hate liars. I hate thieves. I hate drug dealers. I hate corrupt politicians. I hate child molesters. These are hates that are good for the people to have. Maybe if more people allowed themselves to hate liars, thieves, druggies, and the corrupt, our nation wouldn`t be in the mess it`s in. Think about that for a while. Hate could actually save our country.
I hate those who presume to decide for us what we can and cannot see, hear, or read. I am firmly opposed to and have openly defied efforts by our own government to withhold from the people information the people need to make good decisions with. When the Israeli lobby coerces Fox News to erase the story about Israel`s spy ring, should I be less outraged at the concealment simply because the concealers are Israeli? To NOT speak out about a crime because the perpetrators are Israeli would be racist. Because this is EXACTLY what we are dealing with. Crimes. Espionage. Illegal wiretaps. Interference with investigations. Under the definitions in the USA Patriot bill, the coercion of Fox News to drop the espionage story is itself (technically) an act of terror.
Speaking of racism, the ideal held forth in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence is that no one race is superior to others; that no one race should rule by virtue of being a specific race. We even fought a civil war partly on that principle, and while the United States has not always lived up to that ideal, we have never surrendered it as our goal. So, when Arial Sharon openly bragged on October 3rd that, ``We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it``, why should I not find this statement objectionable, and anti-American? Why should I not feel something less than affection for the man who made that statement? Why should a reasonable citizen of this nation not wonder to what extent Sharon was speaking the truth, especially in light of the manner in which Fox News was forced to erase the Carl Cameron stories?
As seen in the subtitle above, the truth is ``hate speech`` only to those with something to hide. In the wake of the exposure of this latest spy scandal, the government of Israel might have expressed some public regret or shame over treating its purported friend, from whom it gets more foreign aid than is given to the entire continent of Africa, in such a shameful manner. Instead what we have seen is censorship of the American news by a foreign power, apparently with the permission of a compromised or complicit US Government, and the shrill cries of ``hate speech`` and ``anti-Semite`` hurled at anyone who dared presume to notice or comment on what Israel has been caught doing.
If you want to know why Israel is so much in the news it isn`t because of ``hate`` and it isn`t because of ``anti-Semitism``, it`s because foreign owned companies were caught bugging the phone system (including that of the White House) and foreign citizens have been arrested as part of the largest spy ring ever found in the United States. That is NEWS, no matter what nationality is involved. In the course of that reporting, it was revealed by a US official that evidence exists linking 9/11 to persons other than Muslim Arabs, but that this evidence is CLASSIFIED. That too is NEWS. Deal with it.
The good side to the Fox News incident is that for the first time, Americans got a good look at just how much power and influence over what we see and hear is being exercised. It doesn`t even matter who did it; that it was done at all is the lesson for our time.
And it is not ``hate`` to point that fact out.
#21 Posted by rsaxena on December 23, 2001 3:35:10 pm
...good work harimau...
ali1/eunuch,
worry about the misery of all pakistanis living with greater poverty and illiteracy than india....when you`ve fixed the misery in the ISLAMIC republic of pukistan, you can worry about india`s minorities...
ali1/eunuch,
worry about the misery of all pakistanis living with greater poverty and illiteracy than india....when you`ve fixed the misery in the ISLAMIC republic of pukistan, you can worry about india`s minorities...
#20 Posted by Glen on December 23, 2001 3:35:10 pm
Reply #: 14
harimau
Ref Glen #: 11
[The reason only 2 % indian are christian b/c you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule .]
I will not let pathetic pea-brained idiots like you twist the truth on a public forum like this. Tell the world proudly that Islam prescribes death as punishment for trying to convert out of Islam and that you will be the first to enforce this religiously-prescribed punishment. Come on; tell the world the truth.
LOOK WHO IS PEA BRAINED TO BRING ISLAMIC LAW E.G. IN SECULAR DEMOCRATIC INDIA ,THE AREA IN DISCUSSION.
[By the time British reached India through East India co .India already was 37 % muslim.]
Again, you will not be allowed to lie and cheat your way out of historical truths. History records that the apostle St. Thomas arrived in India, converted Indians to Christianity and in fact died in India and is buried in Madras. So, Christianity had a great headstart on Islam and still did not reach more than 2%, even after the British arrived and literally hundreds of missionaries swarmed all over India trying to convert Hindus. The reason is simple: the British government would not allow the missionaries to give people the choice between being beheaded or becoming a convert as opposed to the Muslim sultans.
WAS MOHOMMED ALI COERCED TO CHANGE FROM CASSIUS CLAY ?WAS CAT STEVENS THREATENED INTO CHANGING TO YUSUF ISLAM?MANY THOUSAND SUCH e.G.MAGE ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION.WHAT CAN HINDU JELOUS LIKE YOU DO .NOTHING!
Jews landed in Kerala in 279 AD. While not engaging actively in conversion, history records that whatever slaves they purchased, they freed and made them into Jews. Thus India has native Jews known as Black Jews and immigrant Jews commonly known as White Jews. But despite the freedom from slavery given by Jews, Hindus did not convert en mass to Judaism.
JEWS IN INDIA WERE TOKEN PRESENCE LIMITED TO KERALA REGION.IM GLAD YOU INFORMED US ABOUT THERE EVIL & LESS THAN MUSLIM kINGS ,PRACTICE OF making slave of HINDU .ATLEAST MUSLIMS MADE HINDU WIFE (jodha bai )Cin C MAN SINGH ,Singer of court TAN Sane....
[As to your contention ludicurous as it is ,if even 5 % of the muslims were FORCED muslims ,there should have been drop in Muslim %
Again, your pathetic attempt to whitewash the crimes of Islamist thugs will not be allowed to pass unhindered. The mullahs knew fully well that Hindus will revert back and will be accepted back into the fold of Hinduism unless they committed an unpardonable sin. The Hindu scriptures do provide one unpardonable sin; that of eating beef. This sin cannot be washed away by any number of expiation ceremonies. Thus, the first thing forced down the throat of converts after the Kalima was beef.
YOUR ESTEEMED BRAHMIN & PUNDITS LIKE ARUN SHOURIE,KAK,KOENRAD ELSTD,F.gOUTHIER NEVER FAIL TO INFORM US THAT BEEF EATING WAS PART OF HINDUISM FROM THE TIME OF SUMIRITI !!DONT SPREAD RUMOURS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN SHAHADA (THE OPROCESS OF EMBRACING ISLAM)AMONG HUNDREDS THAT I M WITNESSED TO IN WHICH BEEF EATING WAS EVEN MENTIONED.THIS IS TYPICAL OF HATE MONGERING OF SANGH PARIVAR THAT WE SHOUT ABOUT!!
Just about a decade ago, a very large group of people converted to Islam in a village called Meenakshipuram. A month later, they all renounced Islam. Unfortunately for you, the Sharia is not the law of the land in India now and so they are alive.
EXACTLY MY POINT .AND THE CAUSE WAS THRETENED BY HINDU SANGH PARIVAR GOVT OF LOSING THERE RESERVATION OF SHUDRA QUOTA ETC.HERE IS EXACTLY THE COERCION,HAEGONOMY & PRESSURE AGAINST FREE CONVERSION TO ISLAM PRACTICED BY YOUR OWN HINDUTVA GOVT. CALLING ITSELF SECULAR DEMOCRATIC ..HA HA HA HA
[I am sure the wretched condition most of the indian muslims are due to neglect ,]
Neglect, let me tell you, is better than the active hunting down and converting or killing, as practiced by Islamist thugs.
YOU ARE LOSING YOUR MIND .IRRELEVENT TO FLOW OF THAUGHT & DISCUSSION AS FAR AS I SEE UNRELATED .WHATS YOUR POINT
[if they were unreal or grudgingly ,muslim,why would they choose to be persecuted or Atleast accept 2nd level citizenshiop ,when they could easily call them selves Hindu ,]
No, they cannot call themselves Hindu. In the village, they know exactly who you were before you attempted to change your name from Rahim to Ram. Once a Rahim, always a Rahim. You are not the only fcukers to demand exclusive allegiance to your god; we can do it too.
``We have enough Hindus in India who acted honorably and did not forsake their religion for their personal safety or livelihood in a thousand years and there is no reason to take these cowards back into our fold.``
THERE GOES YOUR HINDUTVA PROPOGANDA OF MUSLIM OVERTAKING HINDU POPULATION.YOU YOURSELF ADMIT ENOUGH HINDU DID NOT CONVERT ,THEN WHY RAISE FALSE ALARM OF PARANOIA SO AS TO CAUSE THREATENING CROWD OF HINDUS AGAINST WEAK NEGLECTED MINORITY OF MUSLIMS OF INDIA,?
[& neither would they have to keep Roza nor peray 5 times & memorise foreign arabic sura & koran!]
Try not praying 5 times a day in Pakistan or try to eat in public during Ramzan and let us see what happens. The mullah will be right there with a mob ready to stone you to death.
yOU ARE LOSING YOUR MIND AS I SAID BEFORE .WE ARE TALKINH ABOUT VOLUNTARY EMBRACING ISLAM,MUSLIMS OF INDIA WHO DSPITE PERSECUTION & ADVERSE POLICY AGAINST THERE RELIGION CONTINUE TO PRACTICE ISLAM IN INDIA.WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT AFGHANISTAN NOR PAKISTAN .
harimau
Ref Glen #: 11
[The reason only 2 % indian are christian b/c you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule .]
I will not let pathetic pea-brained idiots like you twist the truth on a public forum like this. Tell the world proudly that Islam prescribes death as punishment for trying to convert out of Islam and that you will be the first to enforce this religiously-prescribed punishment. Come on; tell the world the truth.
LOOK WHO IS PEA BRAINED TO BRING ISLAMIC LAW E.G. IN SECULAR DEMOCRATIC INDIA ,THE AREA IN DISCUSSION.
[By the time British reached India through East India co .India already was 37 % muslim.]
Again, you will not be allowed to lie and cheat your way out of historical truths. History records that the apostle St. Thomas arrived in India, converted Indians to Christianity and in fact died in India and is buried in Madras. So, Christianity had a great headstart on Islam and still did not reach more than 2%, even after the British arrived and literally hundreds of missionaries swarmed all over India trying to convert Hindus. The reason is simple: the British government would not allow the missionaries to give people the choice between being beheaded or becoming a convert as opposed to the Muslim sultans.
WAS MOHOMMED ALI COERCED TO CHANGE FROM CASSIUS CLAY ?WAS CAT STEVENS THREATENED INTO CHANGING TO YUSUF ISLAM?MANY THOUSAND SUCH e.G.MAGE ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION.WHAT CAN HINDU JELOUS LIKE YOU DO .NOTHING!
Jews landed in Kerala in 279 AD. While not engaging actively in conversion, history records that whatever slaves they purchased, they freed and made them into Jews. Thus India has native Jews known as Black Jews and immigrant Jews commonly known as White Jews. But despite the freedom from slavery given by Jews, Hindus did not convert en mass to Judaism.
JEWS IN INDIA WERE TOKEN PRESENCE LIMITED TO KERALA REGION.IM GLAD YOU INFORMED US ABOUT THERE EVIL & LESS THAN MUSLIM kINGS ,PRACTICE OF making slave of HINDU .ATLEAST MUSLIMS MADE HINDU WIFE (jodha bai )Cin C MAN SINGH ,Singer of court TAN Sane....
[As to your contention ludicurous as it is ,if even 5 % of the muslims were FORCED muslims ,there should have been drop in Muslim %
Again, your pathetic attempt to whitewash the crimes of Islamist thugs will not be allowed to pass unhindered. The mullahs knew fully well that Hindus will revert back and will be accepted back into the fold of Hinduism unless they committed an unpardonable sin. The Hindu scriptures do provide one unpardonable sin; that of eating beef. This sin cannot be washed away by any number of expiation ceremonies. Thus, the first thing forced down the throat of converts after the Kalima was beef.
YOUR ESTEEMED BRAHMIN & PUNDITS LIKE ARUN SHOURIE,KAK,KOENRAD ELSTD,F.gOUTHIER NEVER FAIL TO INFORM US THAT BEEF EATING WAS PART OF HINDUISM FROM THE TIME OF SUMIRITI !!DONT SPREAD RUMOURS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN SHAHADA (THE OPROCESS OF EMBRACING ISLAM)AMONG HUNDREDS THAT I M WITNESSED TO IN WHICH BEEF EATING WAS EVEN MENTIONED.THIS IS TYPICAL OF HATE MONGERING OF SANGH PARIVAR THAT WE SHOUT ABOUT!!
Just about a decade ago, a very large group of people converted to Islam in a village called Meenakshipuram. A month later, they all renounced Islam. Unfortunately for you, the Sharia is not the law of the land in India now and so they are alive.
EXACTLY MY POINT .AND THE CAUSE WAS THRETENED BY HINDU SANGH PARIVAR GOVT OF LOSING THERE RESERVATION OF SHUDRA QUOTA ETC.HERE IS EXACTLY THE COERCION,HAEGONOMY & PRESSURE AGAINST FREE CONVERSION TO ISLAM PRACTICED BY YOUR OWN HINDUTVA GOVT. CALLING ITSELF SECULAR DEMOCRATIC ..HA HA HA HA
[I am sure the wretched condition most of the indian muslims are due to neglect ,]
Neglect, let me tell you, is better than the active hunting down and converting or killing, as practiced by Islamist thugs.
YOU ARE LOSING YOUR MIND .IRRELEVENT TO FLOW OF THAUGHT & DISCUSSION AS FAR AS I SEE UNRELATED .WHATS YOUR POINT
[if they were unreal or grudgingly ,muslim,why would they choose to be persecuted or Atleast accept 2nd level citizenshiop ,when they could easily call them selves Hindu ,]
No, they cannot call themselves Hindu. In the village, they know exactly who you were before you attempted to change your name from Rahim to Ram. Once a Rahim, always a Rahim. You are not the only fcukers to demand exclusive allegiance to your god; we can do it too.
``We have enough Hindus in India who acted honorably and did not forsake their religion for their personal safety or livelihood in a thousand years and there is no reason to take these cowards back into our fold.``
THERE GOES YOUR HINDUTVA PROPOGANDA OF MUSLIM OVERTAKING HINDU POPULATION.YOU YOURSELF ADMIT ENOUGH HINDU DID NOT CONVERT ,THEN WHY RAISE FALSE ALARM OF PARANOIA SO AS TO CAUSE THREATENING CROWD OF HINDUS AGAINST WEAK NEGLECTED MINORITY OF MUSLIMS OF INDIA,?
[& neither would they have to keep Roza nor peray 5 times & memorise foreign arabic sura & koran!]
Try not praying 5 times a day in Pakistan or try to eat in public during Ramzan and let us see what happens. The mullah will be right there with a mob ready to stone you to death.
yOU ARE LOSING YOUR MIND AS I SAID BEFORE .WE ARE TALKINH ABOUT VOLUNTARY EMBRACING ISLAM,MUSLIMS OF INDIA WHO DSPITE PERSECUTION & ADVERSE POLICY AGAINST THERE RELIGION CONTINUE TO PRACTICE ISLAM IN INDIA.WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT AFGHANISTAN NOR PAKISTAN .
#19 Posted by MaheshG on December 23, 2001 3:35:10 pm
Anil,
The God`s name is Murugan not Murugam. Please make the appropriate correction in your article.
North Indians should make a conscious effort to correctly spell South Indian names.
Mahesh
#18 Posted by MaheshG on December 23, 2001 3:35:10 pm
Anil,
The God`s name is Murugan not Murugam. Please make the appropriate correction in your article.
Kavita.
#17 Posted by harimau on December 23, 2001 11:01:58 am
Ref brainwashed #: 10
[How righteous your anger!]
Anger? I smile as I type my replies knowing fully well that thayolis like soysauce will hide like cockroahes under a light and true to form, idiots like you will march in where wise men fear to tread.
[Err...how about MGR? I remember he too went to the US for some treatment and Jayalalitha too. Did they not have some `real`, NOBC (Not-OBC) doctor`s around ???]
Just because I picked Annadurai and Karunanidhi doesn`t mean I exempt MGR or Jayalalitha from my contempt. Let me remind all: Respect is earned, contempt is gratis.
[The best hospitals in Tamil Nadu are the Apollos...owned by...(horrors) the Reddys...more OBCs, damn!]
Isn`t Apollo along with AIIMS the hospital that couldn`t diagnose central minister Kumaramangalam`s leukemia? ``More OBCs, damn!`` is a mild way to express your horror, I would say!
[But with your permission, I`ll write immediately to the Space Research Board chairman demanding that they not to have any dealings with Abdul Kalam. This converted fisherman caste person couldn`t possibly have any talent whatsoever, whatever degrees he holds.]
I must congratulate you on your motor skills. Obviously you are able to type faster than whatever passes for your brain can process thoughts. Can you point out where I said that Abdul Kalam is unqualified for his job? Or for that matter that any ``backward class`` person cannot or doesn`t have talent?
[How righteous your anger!]
Anger? I smile as I type my replies knowing fully well that thayolis like soysauce will hide like cockroahes under a light and true to form, idiots like you will march in where wise men fear to tread.
[Err...how about MGR? I remember he too went to the US for some treatment and Jayalalitha too. Did they not have some `real`, NOBC (Not-OBC) doctor`s around ???]
Just because I picked Annadurai and Karunanidhi doesn`t mean I exempt MGR or Jayalalitha from my contempt. Let me remind all: Respect is earned, contempt is gratis.
[The best hospitals in Tamil Nadu are the Apollos...owned by...(horrors) the Reddys...more OBCs, damn!]
Isn`t Apollo along with AIIMS the hospital that couldn`t diagnose central minister Kumaramangalam`s leukemia? ``More OBCs, damn!`` is a mild way to express your horror, I would say!
[But with your permission, I`ll write immediately to the Space Research Board chairman demanding that they not to have any dealings with Abdul Kalam. This converted fisherman caste person couldn`t possibly have any talent whatsoever, whatever degrees he holds.]
I must congratulate you on your motor skills. Obviously you are able to type faster than whatever passes for your brain can process thoughts. Can you point out where I said that Abdul Kalam is unqualified for his job? Or for that matter that any ``backward class`` person cannot or doesn`t have talent?
#16 Posted by harimau on December 23, 2001 11:01:58 am
Ref 12-head #: 11
[you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule]
In case you and others such as Urstruly want to distort history, let me point out that proof for death as the punishment for conversion from Islam exists to this day in Islamic societies; we have the case of Dana Mercer and her 7 co-defendants who were arrested in Kabul on charges of spreading Christianity and would have been executed after a show trial but for the US bombing. You cannot lie any more.
[you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule]
In case you and others such as Urstruly want to distort history, let me point out that proof for death as the punishment for conversion from Islam exists to this day in Islamic societies; we have the case of Dana Mercer and her 7 co-defendants who were arrested in Kabul on charges of spreading Christianity and would have been executed after a show trial but for the US bombing. You cannot lie any more.
#15 Posted by harimau on December 23, 2001 11:01:58 am
Ref Anilsaari Arora #: 9
[People proud of their own worth, such as yourself - if they forsake their own land, then are they not escaping from the travails that exist in their homeland; instead of trying to solve the problems of their own society?]
This is a society that denied me admission to a professional college based on some arbitrary concept of affirmative action. This is a society that wants me to forget the injustices perpetrated by one community (the Muslims) but wants me to pay for the sins of Hinduism. This is a society where history is written by leftist ``intellectuals`` such as Romila Thapar and others at Jawaharlal Nehru University to suit the government`s need of the day. This is a society which no longer values education, scientific progress or justice because all of that is being sacrificed to the modern-day god of affirmative action. And the beneficiaries of this affirmative action, mind you, are not the poor but the rich middle-level communities that use whatever convenient stick is available to bash the forward communities but block the progress of the backward classes.
Who fights the Dalits in Bihar? Who constitute the Ranbir Sena? Brahmins? Hell, no. It is the Thakurs and other land-owning classes. Why don`t you blame them instead of Hinduism, Hindu scriptures and by extension Brahmins?
[What can such invective serve except to strengthen divisions? Isn`t this a typical politician`s trick, to substitute argument with invectives.]
What invective? Rebut my arguments point by point if you can, instead of mouthing off bullshIt about casteism amongst Hindus. Why don`t you talk about casteism in Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Nepal or Japan?
[Don`t you think that a society/community/religious or philosophic system needs to be self-analytical if it is to eradicate such flaws as may have crept into its practice?]
How much more self-analytical can you get than Tamil Nadu? In the caste-ridden politics of that state, couldn`t those idiots get anyone to succeed MGR except the b@stard daughter of a Brahmin and a Nair woman (Vaikom Narayaniammal Janaki, 4th wife of MGR) or an Iyengar Brahmin (Jayalalitha Jayaram)? After 70 years of Brahmin-bashing, this is the level to which your society has sunk. So, let us not talk about benighted Bihar or Madhya Pradesh. Talk about exactly what the last 50 years of education has produced in Tamil Nadu. These fcukers are so full of contempt for the lower classes, it overflows into their own relationship with any caste higher than them and they feel their inferiority. That is why they couldn`t field anybody excepy VN Janaki or Jayalalitha.
The temples of south India were opened to Harijans at the behest of Brahmins. To this day, those who oppose the entry of Dalits into temples or other public locations are the idiots of the middle layer in society who are afraid they wouldn`t have anybody to lord it over. Go talk to them and wait till they come with their sickles for your head.
[Why do non-resident Indian Hindus such as yourself seem so averse to self-analysis at the collective level? Is it because in an alien environment you need to believe in something absolutely perfect, in order that your sense of identity somehow survives?]
Don`t try your psychoanalysis on me. I am sufficiently secure in my identity not to need anything to serve as a reference point. But there is such a thing as absolute truth and justice which are absolutely perfect and I don`t see anything wrong with believing in that.
[People proud of their own worth, such as yourself - if they forsake their own land, then are they not escaping from the travails that exist in their homeland; instead of trying to solve the problems of their own society?]
This is a society that denied me admission to a professional college based on some arbitrary concept of affirmative action. This is a society that wants me to forget the injustices perpetrated by one community (the Muslims) but wants me to pay for the sins of Hinduism. This is a society where history is written by leftist ``intellectuals`` such as Romila Thapar and others at Jawaharlal Nehru University to suit the government`s need of the day. This is a society which no longer values education, scientific progress or justice because all of that is being sacrificed to the modern-day god of affirmative action. And the beneficiaries of this affirmative action, mind you, are not the poor but the rich middle-level communities that use whatever convenient stick is available to bash the forward communities but block the progress of the backward classes.
Who fights the Dalits in Bihar? Who constitute the Ranbir Sena? Brahmins? Hell, no. It is the Thakurs and other land-owning classes. Why don`t you blame them instead of Hinduism, Hindu scriptures and by extension Brahmins?
[What can such invective serve except to strengthen divisions? Isn`t this a typical politician`s trick, to substitute argument with invectives.]
What invective? Rebut my arguments point by point if you can, instead of mouthing off bullshIt about casteism amongst Hindus. Why don`t you talk about casteism in Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Nepal or Japan?
[Don`t you think that a society/community/religious or philosophic system needs to be self-analytical if it is to eradicate such flaws as may have crept into its practice?]
How much more self-analytical can you get than Tamil Nadu? In the caste-ridden politics of that state, couldn`t those idiots get anyone to succeed MGR except the b@stard daughter of a Brahmin and a Nair woman (Vaikom Narayaniammal Janaki, 4th wife of MGR) or an Iyengar Brahmin (Jayalalitha Jayaram)? After 70 years of Brahmin-bashing, this is the level to which your society has sunk. So, let us not talk about benighted Bihar or Madhya Pradesh. Talk about exactly what the last 50 years of education has produced in Tamil Nadu. These fcukers are so full of contempt for the lower classes, it overflows into their own relationship with any caste higher than them and they feel their inferiority. That is why they couldn`t field anybody excepy VN Janaki or Jayalalitha.
The temples of south India were opened to Harijans at the behest of Brahmins. To this day, those who oppose the entry of Dalits into temples or other public locations are the idiots of the middle layer in society who are afraid they wouldn`t have anybody to lord it over. Go talk to them and wait till they come with their sickles for your head.
[Why do non-resident Indian Hindus such as yourself seem so averse to self-analysis at the collective level? Is it because in an alien environment you need to believe in something absolutely perfect, in order that your sense of identity somehow survives?]
Don`t try your psychoanalysis on me. I am sufficiently secure in my identity not to need anything to serve as a reference point. But there is such a thing as absolute truth and justice which are absolutely perfect and I don`t see anything wrong with believing in that.
#14 Posted by harimau on December 23, 2001 11:01:58 am
Ref Glen #: 11
[The reason only 2 % indian are christian b/c you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule .]
I will not let pathetic pea-brained idiots like you twist the truth on a public forum like this. Tell the world proudly that Islam prescribes death as punishment for trying to convert out of Islam and that you will be the first to enforce this religiously-prescribed punishment. Come on; tell the world the truth.
[By the time British reached India through East India co .India already was 37 % muslim.]
Again, you will not be allowed to lie and cheat your way out of historical truths. History records that the apostle St. Thomas arrived in India, converted Indians to Christianity and in fact died in India and is buried in Madras. So, Christianity had a great headstart on Islam and still did not reach more than 2%, even after the British arrived and literally hundreds of missionaries swarmed all over India trying to convert Hindus. The reason is simple: the British government would not allow the missionaries to give people the choice between being beheaded or becoming a convert as opposed to the Muslim sultans.
Jews landed in Kerala in 279 AD. While not engaging actively in conversion, history records that whatever slaves they purchased, they freed and made them into Jews. Thus India has native Jews known as Black Jews and immigrant Jews commonly known as White Jews. But despite the freedom from slavery given by Jews, Hindus did not convert en mass to Judaism.
[As to your contention ludicurous as it is ,if even 5 % of the muslims were FORCED muslims ,there should have been drop in Muslim % AFTER partition B/c IT WOULD BE MORE PROFITABLE FOR THE ERSTWHILE HINDU WHO ACCORDING TO YOU WERE FORCED INTO ISLAM,SHOULD HAVE REVERTED BACK TO HINDUISM ,BUT TO DATE NOT EVEN ONE SUCH CASE IS RECORDED!!]
Again, your pathetic attempt to whitewash the crimes of Islamist thugs will not be allowed to pass unhindered. The mullahs knew fully well that Hindus will revert back and will be accepted back into the fold of Hinduism unless they committed an unpardonable sin. The Hindu scriptures do provide one unpardonable sin; that of eating beef. This sin cannot be washed away by any number of expiation ceremonies. Thus, the first thing forced down the throat of converts after the Kalima was beef.
Just about a decade ago, a very large group of people converted to Islam in a village called Meenakshipuram. A month later, they all renounced Islam. Unfortunately for you, the Sharia is not the law of the land in India now and so they are alive.
[I am sure the wretched condition most of the indian muslims are due to neglect ,]
Neglect, let me tell you, is better than the active hunting down and converting or killing, as practiced by Islamist thugs.
[if they were unreal or grudgingly ,muslim,why would they choose to be persecuted or Atleast accept 2nd level citizenshiop ,when they could easily call them selves Hindu ,]
No, they cannot call themselves Hindu. In the village, they know exactly who you were before you attempted to change your name from Rahim to Ram. Once a Rahim, always a Rahim. You are not the only fcukers to demand exclusive allegiance to your god; we can do it too. We have enough Hindus in India who acted honorably and did not forsake their religion for their personal safety or livelihood in a thousand years and there is no reason to take these cowards back into our fold.
[& neither would they have to keep Roza nor peray 5 times & memorise foreign arabic sura & koran!]
Try not praying 5 times a day in Pakistan or try to eat in public during Ramzan and let us see what happens. The mullah will be right there with a mob ready to stone you to death.
[The reason only 2 % indian are christian b/c you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule .]
I will not let pathetic pea-brained idiots like you twist the truth on a public forum like this. Tell the world proudly that Islam prescribes death as punishment for trying to convert out of Islam and that you will be the first to enforce this religiously-prescribed punishment. Come on; tell the world the truth.
[By the time British reached India through East India co .India already was 37 % muslim.]
Again, you will not be allowed to lie and cheat your way out of historical truths. History records that the apostle St. Thomas arrived in India, converted Indians to Christianity and in fact died in India and is buried in Madras. So, Christianity had a great headstart on Islam and still did not reach more than 2%, even after the British arrived and literally hundreds of missionaries swarmed all over India trying to convert Hindus. The reason is simple: the British government would not allow the missionaries to give people the choice between being beheaded or becoming a convert as opposed to the Muslim sultans.
Jews landed in Kerala in 279 AD. While not engaging actively in conversion, history records that whatever slaves they purchased, they freed and made them into Jews. Thus India has native Jews known as Black Jews and immigrant Jews commonly known as White Jews. But despite the freedom from slavery given by Jews, Hindus did not convert en mass to Judaism.
[As to your contention ludicurous as it is ,if even 5 % of the muslims were FORCED muslims ,there should have been drop in Muslim % AFTER partition B/c IT WOULD BE MORE PROFITABLE FOR THE ERSTWHILE HINDU WHO ACCORDING TO YOU WERE FORCED INTO ISLAM,SHOULD HAVE REVERTED BACK TO HINDUISM ,BUT TO DATE NOT EVEN ONE SUCH CASE IS RECORDED!!]
Again, your pathetic attempt to whitewash the crimes of Islamist thugs will not be allowed to pass unhindered. The mullahs knew fully well that Hindus will revert back and will be accepted back into the fold of Hinduism unless they committed an unpardonable sin. The Hindu scriptures do provide one unpardonable sin; that of eating beef. This sin cannot be washed away by any number of expiation ceremonies. Thus, the first thing forced down the throat of converts after the Kalima was beef.
Just about a decade ago, a very large group of people converted to Islam in a village called Meenakshipuram. A month later, they all renounced Islam. Unfortunately for you, the Sharia is not the law of the land in India now and so they are alive.
[I am sure the wretched condition most of the indian muslims are due to neglect ,]
Neglect, let me tell you, is better than the active hunting down and converting or killing, as practiced by Islamist thugs.
[if they were unreal or grudgingly ,muslim,why would they choose to be persecuted or Atleast accept 2nd level citizenshiop ,when they could easily call them selves Hindu ,]
No, they cannot call themselves Hindu. In the village, they know exactly who you were before you attempted to change your name from Rahim to Ram. Once a Rahim, always a Rahim. You are not the only fcukers to demand exclusive allegiance to your god; we can do it too. We have enough Hindus in India who acted honorably and did not forsake their religion for their personal safety or livelihood in a thousand years and there is no reason to take these cowards back into our fold.
[& neither would they have to keep Roza nor peray 5 times & memorise foreign arabic sura & koran!]
Try not praying 5 times a day in Pakistan or try to eat in public during Ramzan and let us see what happens. The mullah will be right there with a mob ready to stone you to death.
#13 Posted by ali1 on December 23, 2001 11:01:58 am
Dear Anil,
India is the most miserable hell hole for the majority of its citizens, which is Dalits, Shudras, Muslims and Christians. We hope to see some improvement with efforts from enlightened people like you.
Brahminism is an evil ideology, which, like communism and Talibanism/BinLandinism should be removed by force if necessary. It would lead the creation of several smaller, more prosperous states from the current India.
I think Tamil Nadu, AP, Kerala, Karanatka and Goa have no need to suffer under the Brahmin RamRaji politicians of the cow belt and will see true development and prosperity once they become independent states. No wonder that the staunchest Indian nationalists in these states are the Brahmins.
Wishing you success and praying for the quick demise of the evil Brahmin empire.
India is the most miserable hell hole for the majority of its citizens, which is Dalits, Shudras, Muslims and Christians. We hope to see some improvement with efforts from enlightened people like you.
Brahminism is an evil ideology, which, like communism and Talibanism/BinLandinism should be removed by force if necessary. It would lead the creation of several smaller, more prosperous states from the current India.
I think Tamil Nadu, AP, Kerala, Karanatka and Goa have no need to suffer under the Brahmin RamRaji politicians of the cow belt and will see true development and prosperity once they become independent states. No wonder that the staunchest Indian nationalists in these states are the Brahmins.
Wishing you success and praying for the quick demise of the evil Brahmin empire.
#12 Posted by Sadhna on December 22, 2001 8:19:22 pm
http://www.ncmonline.com/content/ncm/2001/dec/1204uglysecret.html
New Film About One Of India`s Ugliest Secrets
India-West, By Lisa Tsering, December 4, 2001
Los Angeles--The ritualistic sexual abuse of young girls in India is the topic of Maya, a devastating new film from first-time director Dijvijay Singh.
Maya screened last week at the Regus London Film Festival, and the film has gotten raves at film festivals in Montreal, Vancouver, Chicago and Toronto for its unsparing depiction of India`s little-understood devadasi tradition.
Twelve-year-old Maya (Nitya Shetty) lives on the outskirts of Hyderabad with her middle class family - her father, Arun (Anand Nag); mother Lakshmi (Mita Vashist); and 11-year-old cousin Sanjay (Nikhil Yadav), her constant companion for nonstop childish pranks and mischief.
The day that Maya reaches puberty, though, her childish fun comes to an abrupt end as relatives start planning for the biggest event of the young girl`s life: a feast and ceremony to dedicate her to the goddess Yellamma.
Maya doesn`t understand why the grownups seem to be talking in code, and why such care is being taken to choose just the right sari and the most astrologically auspicious date for her ceremony - although the village women shoot each other a few pained glances. Like a good, obedient daughter, she silently complies, up to the moment she is led into a dark room in the temple where a group of waiting priests awaits as a huge, wooden door is closed behind her.
Digvijay Singh and Maya`s producers, Dileep Singh Rathode and Emmanuel Pappas, have been working on the film for the past five years and are finally getting the attention and rewards they so rightly deserve. The subject matter is never made titillating, nor is it glossed over.
``The character of Maya is not based on any one girl`s story,`` Rathode told India-West after a recent screening of the film. ``Reports from nongovernmental organizations state that until recently, as many as 15,000 girls were believed to be used as devadasis`` in Andhra Pradesh, Orissa and Karnataka.
In villages deep in rural India, young girls are still ``dedicated to God,`` namely, given to temple priests, as brides as part of the devadasi tradition. Although outlawed in India, the devadasi tradition persists, primarily among the dalit community.
A report quoted by Human Rights Watch states that ``Thousands of untouchable female children (between 6 and 8 years) are forced to become maidens of God, (Devadasis or Jogins) ... They are taken from their families, never to see them again. They are later raped by the temple priest and finally auctioned secretly into prostitution and ultimately die from AIDS.`` In the film`s press materials, the filmmakers include links to NGO Web sites documenting the reach of this specialized type of abuse.
Rathode, a cousin of Singh`s, worked as a coordinator in Mumbai for numerous Kapoor family productions before working as an independent line producer for a number of foreign films in India, including City of Joy and The Deceivers (a 1988 film starring Pierce Brosnan).
Singh, too, had worked as an assistant director on Indian film and television productions and TV commercials before moving to Los Angeles to enter the filmmaking program at UCLA. The two teamed up with Emmanuel Pappas, also a filmmaking student at UCLA, to form Kundalini Pictures, their production company based in Los Angeles.
The film was shot in locations in the Telangana district of Andhra Pradesh, and some scenes were even shot in a temple where the ritual is said to have taken place.
Actress Nitya Shetty, at age 10 already a veteran of 16 films, has acted since she was five in Telugu films, TV commercials and serials. In 1999, the state of Andhra Pradesh honored her with an award for Best Child Actor for her work in the film Channi Channi Asa, and she appears in the recent hit film Devadu.
Mita Vashisht has appeared in more than 20 films, including Taal and Dil Se; and Anand Nag was worked with Shashi Kapoor, Rekha and Shabana Azmi in a career spanning 30 years and 150 films.
The producers of Maya are currently working with a distributor to bring the film to a wider audience; till now, it has only been seen at festivals.
By setting the story in a middle class household, it makes it easier for viewers to relate to the characters and harder for them to dismiss what happens as some obscure Third World ritual, said Rathode.
The sheer ordinariness of Maya`s ritual - its unquestioned acceptance in the community and the casual attitude with which the villagers feast while she screams from inside the temple - give the film a terrifying edge.
But the film goes deeper than simply chronicling a crime of exploitation. Cinematographer Mark Lapwood uses long, languid shots that draw out the day-to-day tedium of small town life, and Manesh Judge`s haunting music enhances the entire work. Maya presents an ugly scenario with surprising beauty and subtlety.
Some viewers have criticized Maya for promoting an unflattering image of India, but Rathode disagrees. ``I don`t think that is the case,`` he told India-West. ``Our film does not describe the whole population of the country.
``This is a practice which has been banned by the Indian government. It`s not appreciated by anyone in India.
``Nevertheless, it is a practice that still happens.``
Back to Top | NCM Home | Pacific News Service
#11 Posted by Glen on December 22, 2001 8:19:22 pm
#: 7
harimau
The author says, ``Many historians, such as Percival Spear, also believe that it was not so much the Muslim rulers of medieval India who forced mass conversions, but the teachings of equality (among human beings) which were preached by the Sufi pirs. It is an argument that seems more plausible, because we see in the post-1947 period that some Dalit sub-groups have left the fold of Hinduism and converted to Buddhism.``
---------
Harimou
You can think & BELIEVEcows fly & Mahabharata invented aeroplane & Arun Shourie is Bertrand Russell incarnate .
The reason only 2 % indian are christian b/c you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule .By the time British reached India through East India co .India already was 37 % muslim.
As to your contention ludicurous as it is ,if even 5 % of the muslims were FORCED muslims ,there should have been drop in Muslim % AFTER partition B/c IT WOULD BE MORE PROFITABLE FOR THE ERSTWHILE HINDU WHO ACCORDING TO YOU WERE FORCED INTO ISLAM,SHOULD HAVE REVERTED BACK TO HINDUISM ,BUT TO DATE NOT EVEN ONE SUCH CASE IS RECORDED!!
I am sure the wretched condition most of the indian muslims are due to neglect ,if they were unreal or grudgingly ,muslim,why would they choose to be persecuted or Atleast accept 2nd level citizenshiop ,when they could easily call them selves Hindu ,& neither would they have to keep Roza nor peray 5 times & memorise foreign arabic sura & koran!
Think if you have bheja or i dontr care ewhether you ar Brahmin or not ,a sudra is better than you
harimau
The author says, ``Many historians, such as Percival Spear, also believe that it was not so much the Muslim rulers of medieval India who forced mass conversions, but the teachings of equality (among human beings) which were preached by the Sufi pirs. It is an argument that seems more plausible, because we see in the post-1947 period that some Dalit sub-groups have left the fold of Hinduism and converted to Buddhism.``
---------
Harimou
You can think & BELIEVEcows fly & Mahabharata invented aeroplane & Arun Shourie is Bertrand Russell incarnate .
The reason only 2 % indian are christian b/c you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule .By the time British reached India through East India co .India already was 37 % muslim.
As to your contention ludicurous as it is ,if even 5 % of the muslims were FORCED muslims ,there should have been drop in Muslim % AFTER partition B/c IT WOULD BE MORE PROFITABLE FOR THE ERSTWHILE HINDU WHO ACCORDING TO YOU WERE FORCED INTO ISLAM,SHOULD HAVE REVERTED BACK TO HINDUISM ,BUT TO DATE NOT EVEN ONE SUCH CASE IS RECORDED!!
I am sure the wretched condition most of the indian muslims are due to neglect ,if they were unreal or grudgingly ,muslim,why would they choose to be persecuted or Atleast accept 2nd level citizenshiop ,when they could easily call them selves Hindu ,& neither would they have to keep Roza nor peray 5 times & memorise foreign arabic sura & koran!
Think if you have bheja or i dontr care ewhether you ar Brahmin or not ,a sudra is better than you
#10 Posted by anarayan on December 22, 2001 4:26:42 pm
Re: #7
harimau,
``Better still, ask the question ``Will the politicians who have promoted these ideas accept medical care at the hands of the doctors they have created?`` Why the fcuk did that Great Fraud C. N. Annadurai go to the US for treatment of his cancer when he could have gotten treatment at the hands of one of his ``backward class`` medical doctors? Why is that other fraud Karunanidhi doing the same thing? Why is it that the population of Tamil Nadu which has put up with 87% of professional education reserved for ``backward classes`` for the last 30 years is paying for these fcukers` treatment abroad when they themselves have to accept substandard treatment by ``quota system`` doctors?``
How righteous your anger!
Err...how about MGR? I remember he too went to the US for some treatment and Jayalalitha too. Did they not have some `real`, NOBC (Not-OBC) doctor`s around ???
The best hospitals in Tamil Nadu are the Apollos...owned by...(horrors) the Reddys...more OBCs, damn!
Never mind all that. But with your permission, I`ll write immediately to the Space Research Board chairman demanding that they not to have any dealings with Abdul Kalam. This converted fisherman caste person couldn`t possibly have any talent whatsoever, whatever degrees he holds.
regards,
harimau,
``Better still, ask the question ``Will the politicians who have promoted these ideas accept medical care at the hands of the doctors they have created?`` Why the fcuk did that Great Fraud C. N. Annadurai go to the US for treatment of his cancer when he could have gotten treatment at the hands of one of his ``backward class`` medical doctors? Why is that other fraud Karunanidhi doing the same thing? Why is it that the population of Tamil Nadu which has put up with 87% of professional education reserved for ``backward classes`` for the last 30 years is paying for these fcukers` treatment abroad when they themselves have to accept substandard treatment by ``quota system`` doctors?``
How righteous your anger!
Err...how about MGR? I remember he too went to the US for some treatment and Jayalalitha too. Did they not have some `real`, NOBC (Not-OBC) doctor`s around ???
The best hospitals in Tamil Nadu are the Apollos...owned by...(horrors) the Reddys...more OBCs, damn!
Never mind all that. But with your permission, I`ll write immediately to the Space Research Board chairman demanding that they not to have any dealings with Abdul Kalam. This converted fisherman caste person couldn`t possibly have any talent whatsoever, whatever degrees he holds.
regards,
#9 Posted by Anilsaari Arora on December 22, 2001 2:47:50 pm
Harimau #7
People proud of their own worth, such as yourself - if they forsake their own land, then are they not escaping from the travails that exist in their homeland; instead of trying to solve the problems of their own society?
Why should you use abusive language in order to run down (or make a point vis a vis) somebody who has a different point of view? What can such invective serve except to strengthen divisions? Isn`t this a typical politician`s trick, to substitute argument with invectives.
Don`t you think that a society/community/religious or philosophic system needs to be self-analytical if it is to eradicate such flaws as may have crept into its practice?
Why do non-resident Indian Hindus such as yourself seem so averse to self-analysis at the collective level? Is it because in an alien environment you need to believe in something absolutely perfect, in order that your sense of identity somehow survives?
People proud of their own worth, such as yourself - if they forsake their own land, then are they not escaping from the travails that exist in their homeland; instead of trying to solve the problems of their own society?
Why should you use abusive language in order to run down (or make a point vis a vis) somebody who has a different point of view? What can such invective serve except to strengthen divisions? Isn`t this a typical politician`s trick, to substitute argument with invectives.
Don`t you think that a society/community/religious or philosophic system needs to be self-analytical if it is to eradicate such flaws as may have crept into its practice?
Why do non-resident Indian Hindus such as yourself seem so averse to self-analysis at the collective level? Is it because in an alien environment you need to believe in something absolutely perfect, in order that your sense of identity somehow survives?
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