Caste, Technology and Religious Conversions in India

unkaljay:

``A mechanical net nanny award to punch anNy when she uses, ji, unkal etc``

i love you very much also

Ref 12-head-Shah #: 93

[Thats right you god knows who(brahmin,christian,dalit,wannabe brahmin shudra..who knows)most of your brahmins ,i have out witted,outperformed & competed out from Pondicherry to Pillani.]

I breathlessly await the day your name is announced as the winner of the Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine.

By any chance, if you are in Michigan, do you think you can join the Headshrinker to form Quacky & Wacky PC?

Ref Prem #53:

Let us see what Gail Omvedt actually said:

[But there are divisions among the new {Dalit} radicals, both at the personal level and at the levels of class and profession, apart from the traditional levels of caste. There are the traditional antagonisms of Mahars versus Mangs in Maharashtra, Madigas versus Malas in Andhra, Chuhras versus Chamars in Uttar Pradesh, Paraiyas versus Pallars in Tamil Nadu and this continues in new names and forms.]

Soy Sauce (why Chinese soy sauce, why not the native kari-kuzhambu as your handle?), in your beloved Tamil Nadu, it is Paraiyas versus Pallars.... both castes are Untouchables.... what are they fighting for.... probably for crumbs left over after the Mudaliars and Chettiars have grabbed all the opportunities supposedly given to the Scheduled Castes and Tribes.

Let me tell you a little bit more about all these idiots who cry themselves hoarse over how Tamil as a language is discriminated against and how Tamilians are at the bottom of the heap. Let us take the Nattukkottai Nagarathars, Chettiars by caste. They consider themselves to be descendants of North Indian immigrants (specifically, the Seths). And marry among themselves so that they can keep their wealth ill-gotten by charging DAILY interest rate of 2.5%. And the people who paid these atrocious interest rates? The landless laborer of Tamil Nadu who borrowed money for weddings, etc. Where were the Muslims with prohibitions of interest? I would gladly hand over these Chettiars to them to behead.

These Chettiars and immigrant Reddys and Naidus (Telugu-speaking) and Naickars (from Karnataka) name their kids Tamil Mani (Tamil Jewel), Tamil Arasan (Tamil King), etc., so as to seem to be native Tamilians while continuing to speak their mother-tongues in the home environment. At the rate the various combinations of nouns with the prefix Tamil is being used up by these guys, the native Tamilians will be left with just one possible name: Tamil A$$hole. Which will suit them just fine because that is what they have shown themselves to be. You of course can have the other unique name of Tamil Thayoli.

What a bunch of pathetic losers!

Gail also has this to say [In some regions, the hatred is not between Dalits and Brahmins, but between Dalits and OBCs.]

Not just in some regions, in almost every region.

anarayan,

i do believe in the freudian dictum that ``one who threw an abuse at the other instead of a stone is the father of civilisation``.

malayalam is relatively poor in abuses compared to tamil, and as a corollary I accept that tamil is more `cultured`` than malayalam.

An extreme example is thai, it has only one abuse, and the violence in the society is unbelievable. It is accepted for the supervisor to be shot for illtreating a subordinate, a little like the honour killing in pakistan. You are likely to know only a few seconds before death that a thai was mad at you. Well i survived for nearly a decade.

The specific fish frying abuse i havnt heard and it is quite unlikely to be a kerala abuse because there is no equivalen of gandoo, gand marna type of usages in kerala. may be because of the long association with the muslims, homosexuality among men is accepted, and as such might have lost the abuse connotations.

regards

Jay

Ref 12-head-Shah #: 88

[Of course i know Arabic some which they dont know b/c i went to madrssah also .]

Listen, if your madrassah education was anything like your medical degree from Magadh University, I wouldn`t brag about it.

Ref Zafar al-Talib #: 87

I said [A South Indian politician once said that the only two major pieces of literature in Hindi were the Ramayana by Tulsidas and the All-India Railway Timetable and Guide. So let us not confuse the two!.....]

You replied [Must have been a Brahmin....]

Bingo! Only they have a wit sardonic enough to make such statements.

This one was by Chakravarthi Rajagopalachari, the first Governor-General of independent India.

Reportedly another is supposed to have said that Gandhi`s dearest wish would be to die by an assassin`s bullet... some years before the fact.

Ref scout #: 85

[too much caffeine lately or just a fresh pair of energizer batteries?]

Just energized by the lack of intellectual honesty amongst certain Indians.

[go look at water.]

I have been looking at it for a couple of days.... the solidified form of it. You won`t believe it but I just fought my way out of Buffalo, NY.

harimau,

too much caffeine lately or just a fresh pair of energizer batteries?

go look at water.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/gul.khan/main1.jpg

http://www3.sympatico.ca/gul.khan/main1.jpg

I like this kind of news from war torn weary Afghanistan for a change

Lol..he he he he he

Don`t mess with Afghans with satellite phones



By Raz Mohammad

Friday December 28, 10:20 PM

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Picking a fight with your neighbour in Afghanistan can be dangerous -- especially if he has a satellite phone and threatens to use it to call in the U.S. air force to drop bombs on you.

Fida Jan, a junior commander of the anti-Taliban mujahideen in the village of Shirkat-e-Mewa near the southern city of Kandahar, knows all about the problem, a neighbour said.

His boss, Mullah Zilla, took a shine to Fida Jan`s four-wheel drive vehicle, a necessity but also a must-have fashion item in rural Afghanistan, and on December 25 asked him to hand it over, he said.

No, said Fida Jan, pointing out that it was on patrol.

This earned him a string of abuse from Mullah Zilla, Fida Jan`s neighbour said, and an interesting threat:

Hand it over or I`ll call in U.S. aircraft and have you bombed.

Such threats are commonplace, the neighbour, Mir Ahmad Shah, told Reuters, and effective: ``People are scared of B-52 bombers.``

The row escalated. Fida Jan warned his neighbours that a fight with Mullah Zilla was imminent and advised them to leave their homes, which they did.

Village elders and mullahs from the mosque asked Mullah Zilla to back down, to no avail. Fida Jan`s men set up checkpoints around the town. A few shots were fired in the air.

All seemed set for violence until the son of an important local commander, Amir Lalai, to whom Mullah Zilla owes allegiance, stepped in and persuaded Zilla to call off his threats. The danger eased and relieved villagers returned home.

But while the incident in Shirkat-e-Mewa ended without bloodshed, there are serious fears that some Afghans elsewhere may have already summoned up strikes from the world`s most powerful air force to settle local disputes.

Last week, a convoy in the eastern Paktia province was destroyed by U.S. airstrikes, leaving some 60 people dead.

The United States says it was a legitimate target that carried members of the al Qaeda network, headed by Osama bin Laden, the primary focus of the U.S. campaign in Afghanistan and wanted for the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

Others say the convoy consisted of tribal elders travelling to Kabul with invitations to attend the inauguration of new interim leader Hamid Karzai.

Some locals have said these elders were the victims of tribal rivalries -- and the attack was masterminded by a rogue satellite phone user.

Karzai has now promised to ask for a halt to U.S. bombardment in the province while the incident is investigated.

Until the truth is discovered, Afghans may not want to quarrel with satellite phone owners.

Something interesting enough to be copied & kept as a record.Please email to as many as you can.....Dawah is important too!It strenghtens you if it strenghthens the UMMAH.

_________________________________________________

The Opinion Of Non-Muslims Intellectuals On Muhammad (saw):

There are many eminent non Muslim scholars and scientists which have assessed and evaluated the Holy Book of Allah-The HOLY QURAN dispassionately, casting aside their customary and traditional attitude of condemnation. In the following paragraphs i have given the extracts from their writings.

If the facts that have been gathered and quoted here stimulate your thoughts, challenge your conscience and stir your soul to accept the Commands of HOLY QURAN, then rise and try to be like your worthy ancestors-the best and the most noble. Holy Quran says- ``We have indeed created man in the best of moulds.`` {Surah Tin 95:4}

The purpose is also to bring a modern educated Muslim youth nearer to Quranic code of life by straightening the mental curves that have arisen in his make up as a result of his Western oriented materialistic education. The purpose is to awaken his faith and prompt his pious spirit that lies buried deep down in his heart towards him, the Holy Quran and Islam.

__________________________________________________

Professor Dr. Hartwig Hirschfeld of London University:

1. Quran is unreproachable, congenial with regard to convincing power, eloquence and even composition. Never has a people been led more rapidly to a civilization, such as it was in the case of Muslims through Quran.

2. Quran was the fountainhead of all sciences.

Dr. Sir Tritton of London University, in His book ``Belief and Practices``:

He said that the Quranic beliefs are based on reason. To command what is right and to forbid what is wrong is an article of faith of Quran.

Dr. Albert Einstein, an Eminent Scientist in His book ``Life and Time``:

He said:

1. The most beautiful emotion that we can experience is mystical. He, who is not moved by this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead.

2. To know that what is not understandable really does exist, is the highest form of wisdom and most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties fail to comprehend. This knowledge, this feeling, is at the centre of true religiousness and in this sense, and in this sense only, I belong to the ranks of devoutly religious.

3. And - any one who does not believe in :-

a) Personal God

b) Revelations

c) Messengers

d) Angels and

e) The Day of Judgement , is not, and can not be called a scientist.

Goethe, one of the Greatest Poets:

He speaking about the Holy Quran declared that:

1. This Book will go on exercising through all ages a most potent influence.

2. We resign ourselves to God. If this be Islam , then do we not all live in Islam?

Dr. Oswald Seengler in his book ``History of Philosophy``:

He said:

1. The role of Quran in human history is of revolutionary importance as it revolted against ancient Roman and Greek traditions and it was against all speculative and all abstract nature of things.

2. Quran emphasizes that ` Nature and History ` are two sources of knowledge for the study and for the understanding of concrete signs of natural phenomenon.

Professor Arberry of Cambridge University in His book `Quran Interpreted`:

He said that Quran was revealed at a time when Greek and Roman civilizations were plainly dead. Quranic people created their own sciences and arts.

In a book - History of Mankind:

In this book it is said that it is probable that but for Quran, modern civilization would never have assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution.

Professor Will Durrant:

He said :

1. Quran has abolished the greatest misery from humanity at large by the abolition of priesthood. What a tremendous amount of misery this institution of priesthood can cause in the administrative and ecclesiastical history of mankind!

2. In the `History of Civilization` he said - `` The false bogey and notions raised and sustained by biased Western writers against Islam, in preference to Christianity, are now being exposed by many western writers and thinkers who have studied Islam and Quran in detail.

Carnegie Research. Washington Publication No.376:

They said that from the 8th to 12th century the European language was Arabic. From 850 A.D. to 1250 A.D. Arabic was scientific and progressive language of mankind because the whole history of science is proof to it. Muslims were fired by enthusiastic curiosity and scientific genius. Muslim culture radiated from a number of centres which were spread in Western Europe, Maghrib and Central Asia. They related to mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, physics, technology, geography, medicine and botany. During 750 A.D. to 1100 A.D. Islam produced men like Al-Batair - the Botanist, Abdul Lateef - the Physician, Jabir Ibne Hayyan, Al-Kundi, Al Khwarazmi, Ibne Sina, Al-Masudi, Al-Ghazali, Umar Khayyam and Al-Jarrar to mention a few.

British Research Papers:

1) These British Research Papers disclose historical events of 800 A.D. to 1400 A.D. period which were kept mostly out of sight or were falsely represented by European historians to the world. These researches reveal how Quranic teachings were assiduously studied preached and its code of life was put into practical application in Europe by various emperors, warriors, kings, priests, scholars and elite, sometimes at the cost of their heads and crows.

2) Europe and other territories were not captured by sword but by sheer eloquence, appeal to reason, cultural excellence of Quran and its charm and through the vast potentialities of knowledge available in Arabic language.

3) Arabic was the language of Europe from 800 A.D. to 1400 A.D. and Quran was its code of life. By the 12th century, the literate of Europe had adopted Quranic doctrines.

4) The Research Papers say:- Quran was radiating its light silently through-out Europe. By 9th century, English, French and Germans having a taste of learning and eloquent manners found their ways into Islamic teachings and institutions.

5) Quranic doctrines eventually made themselves felt in the highest ecclesiastical regions.

6) European Universities more particularly Oxford and Paris had the largest share in spreading Arabic language in Europe.

7) At Marseilles there was a - `Great Arabic Learning Centre`

8) Quran was translated into Latin and Europeans had adopted Arabic sciences.

9) By the end of 13th century, most of Europe was thoroughly influenced by the Quranic Scientific Research and Quranic Philosophy of Life.

10) The Quranic influences had thus found an expression in France, Germany, England and Italy involving many classes of society from the poor men of the city of Lyon to the Emperors of Germany.

Emperor Bonaparte in ``Et- Islam``:

1) I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all wise men and educated men of all countries on the principles of Quran which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.

2) Quranic people were fond of sciences and literature. In Cairo there were 6000 books on Astronomy alone and more than one hundred thousand on Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, and Medicine.

3) But many shameless plagiarists claimed for themselves the Arabic works which they translated into Latin and named after them. Many Muslim authors` names were Latinized to hide original identification.

4) And Quran was studied in many universities of Europe.

In a Book History of Medieval Islam:

There is hardly any area of human experience where Quran has not enriched the Western tradition, foods, drinks, culture, medicine, armor, industry, commerce, discoveries, inventions, maritime, techniques, artistic, tastes and amenities - not to speak of many terms that were adopted from Arabic.

Professor Max Mayer of Paris University in French Research Le Monde Islamic :

1) The scientific, economic, political, social and literary concepts were given to Europe by Quranic civilization.

2) There are about 1000 main words of Arabic origin in English language and there are many derivatives from these words.

3) If history is to be studied unbiased, linguistic evidence can be found to show that there are about 100 words of Quranic origin in technical usage alone.

Professor Arnold J. Toynbee :

1) The extinction of race consciousness is one of the outstanding achievements of Quran and in the contemporary world , there is a crying need for the propagation of this Quranic virtue. Spirit of Islam may decide the issue with peace and tolerance.

2) The Western civilization has produced an economic and political plenum but at the same time it has caused a social and spiritual void.

Michael H. Hart :

In his book ` Ranking of 100 Most Influential Persons in History ` said : He has placed Hazrat Muhammad (saw) on top of the list. He has placed Isa (as) at position No.3 and Gautam Buddha at No.4. He has placed Musa (as) at No.16. His reasoning is:-

1) I have ranked these 100 great persons in order of importance.

2) A striking example of this in ranking Muhammad (saw) higher than Jesus Christ, in large part is because of my belief that Muhammad (saw) had a much greater influence on the formulation of Muslim religion.

3) This unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad (saw) to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

4) In ranking the men and women in this book, I considered the influence that their accomplishments may have on future generations and events.

5) Since Quran is at least as important to Muslims as the Bible is to Christians, the influence of Muhammad (saw) through the medium of Quran has been enormous. It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad (saw) on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and Saint Paul on Christianity.

Bernard Shaw in His book `Whither Islam`:

1) No other religion has had such a record of success in uniting, in giving equality of status, of opportunity and of endeavors to so many and so varied races of mankind as Islam did.

2) I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad (saw) that it would be acceptable tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today. Mediaeval ecclesiasts, either through ignorance or bigotry, painted Muhammadanism in the darkest colors. They were, in fact, trained to hate both the man Muhammad (saw) and his religion. To them Muhammad (saw) was anti-Christ. I have studied him, the wonderful man, and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ. He must be called the savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving the problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness. Europe is beginning to be enamored of the creed of Muhammad (saw). In the next century it may go still further in recognizing the utility of that creed in solving its problems, and it is in this sense that you must understand my prediction.

Professor Bosworth:

Call him the greatest of all reforms because he brought a revolutionary change , the equal of which was never in effect either before or after him. He is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities.

Professor Gibon a World Historian:

He said that the greatest success of Muhammad`s (saw) life was through sheer moral force without a first stroke of a sword. This is confirmed by Quran and by the history of Muslim conquerors and by their public and legal toleration of Christian worship.

Professor Massignon:

1) Islam maintains the balance between the exaggerated opposites. It has always in view the building of character which is the basis of civilization.

2) orphanages had sprung up for the first time, it is said, under the teaching of Prophet of Islam. The world owes its orphanages to this Prophet who himself was born an orphan.

The encyclopedia Britannica:

It said that Muhammad (saw) is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities.

Sarojini Naidu:

She said that it was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy. For in the mosque, when the `` Call to prayer `` is sounded at the minaret and the worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim - `` ALLAH alone is great `` .

Mahatma Gandhi:

It was Islam that civilized Spain, it was Islam that took the torch of light to Morocco and preached to the world the doctrine of brotherhood and therefore the Europeans of South Africa dread the advent of Islam as the Blacks may claim equality with the white races.

Professor Hurgonje:

He said that the League of Nations founded by the Prophet of Islam put the principle of International Unity and human brotherhood on such universal foundations as to show candle to other nations.

Professor K.S. Ramakrishna of Mysore:

He said that Islam came as the defender of the weaker sex and entitled women to share in the inheritance of their parents. It gave women , 14 centuries ago, the right of owning property. Yet it was twelve centuries later, in 1881 that England, supposed to be the cradle of democracy, adopted this institution of Islam and an Act of Parliament was passed called - `` The Married Women`s Act `` that gave them right of inheritance.

Laura Veccia Valieri in His book ``Apologie de L ` Islamisme``:

He said that the proof of the divinity of Quran is that it has been preserved intact through the ages since the time of its revelation till the present day - read and re-read by the Muslim world. This Book does not rouse in the faithfuls any weariness. It rather, through repetition, is more loved everyday. It gives rise to a profound feeling of awe and respect in the one who reads it or listens to it.

Dr. Tarachand A Distinguished Scholar and Historian of India:

His saying was that for a thousand years this civilization (i.e. the Muslim) was the central light whose rays illuminated the world. It was the mother of European culture, for men reared in this Islamic civilization were the masters in the Middle ages at whose feet the Spaniards, the French, the English, the Italians and the Germans sat down to learn Philosophy, Sciences, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Physics, Medicines and Industrial techniques. Their teachers names are household words.

Maurice Bucille. A French Scientist in His Book ``The Bible, the Quran and Science``:

He said that the Quran most definitely did not contain a single proposition at variance with the most firmly established modern knowledge. It is a consideration which implies that God could not express an erroneous idea. Facts always assert their existence in the end , in spite of the resistance put up by those who are inconvenienced, annoyed or shocked by their discovery. (Later he became a Muslim)

A. M . L . Stoddard:

He quoted that the rise of Islam is perhaps the most amazing event in human history. Springing from a land and a people who were previously negligible, Islam spread with in a century over half the earth, shattering great empires, overthrowing long established religions, remoulding the souls of races and building up a whole new world - the world of Islam.

James A . Michener:

He said that the Quran is probably the most often read book in the world, surely the most often memorized, and possibly the most influential in the daily life of the people who believe in it. It is neither poetry nor ordinary prose, yet it possesses the ability to arouse its hearer to ecstasies.

Annie Basant in Her Book - ``Life and Teachings of Muhammad``:

She was of the view that it is impossible for any one who studies the life and character of the great prophet of Arabia, who now knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel any thing else but reverence for that mighty Arabian Teacher.

Zafar Al-Talib,

``I tell you, I am learning more and more about Tamilian language and culture on this board. First ali. Now thayoli.``

Zafar Saab, a great and ancient language will always have great cuss-words!

``A recent I overheard:``I`ll fry fish in your a-hole``!” And you say this how?``

This was in Malayalam, not Tamil. Err...being the bashful kind, I`ll pass. But you can always ask Jay !!

regards,

Ref karuvattu-kuzhambu:

I dug up that report about a beggar girl doing well in the exams.

She happened to be living in the state of Karnataka.

If she were in Tamil Nadu, she will be blaming her fate and still begging on the streets.

Doctor Artist Leader would be blaming the Brahmins for her plight while simultaneously making sure that his son MK Stalin will some day become the Chief Minister.

TRAVELLERS` TALES

By Nury Vittachi

Issue cover-dated December 06, 2001

STREET SMART: A teenage Indian female beggar entered a college examination in June--and passed with flying colours, to the amazement of the authorities. Nagarathna, a Mysore-based vagrant, quickly become a minor celebrity, being featured in The Times of India. In her latest coup, Nagarathna won a place as a jury member at the 12th International Children`s Film Festival in Hyderabad last month. If she gets any more invitations, she can afford to be selective--giving the lie to an old maxim that beggars can`t be choosers.

Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 69

[Which is why speakers of Hindi - descended from Sanskrit - have little difficulty understanding Urdu - derived from Altaic-Turkic languages.]

Listen up good, Zafar. Sanskrit has classics such as Kalidasa`s Shakuntalam, Raghuvamsam, etc.

A South Indian politician once said that the only two major pieces of literature in Hindi were the Ramayana by Tulsidas and the All-India Railway Timetable and Guide. So let us not confuse the two!

Ref Zafar the Student #: 68

Zafar Al-Talib

[I tell you, I am learning more and more about Tamilian language and culture on this board. First ali. Now thayoli.]

One thing for sure. You wouldn`t name your son Ali, what with all the Sri Lankan Tamils in Australia.

Ref Umer Murtaza #: 66

[Well, at least now you know how it feels to to get pissed off when someone spews shitz.]

You can`t call it shitz and then immediately also say [Anil, (great article!!!!)]

[Harimau and Sax, I`ve seen you guys at your funniest for a long time.]

We all missed you for a long time on the Chowk.

[Take care and happy new year.]

Happy New Year to you too. But I guess I can only offer you non-alcoholic cider. I hope Zafar stays away from some of that awful South Australian wines.

Ref sorely-in-need-of-an-EEG #: 71

[Why did not a dalit ever get a noble prize?]

Why don`t you ask a Dalit, someone who has plenty of money but got into college on quota? He will tell you he doesn`t have to do anything to excel because he has got his ticket punched.

[Yea, Yea, we know...Bose was a low, low caste dalit, right?]

No, he wasn`t. But he didn`t think that theoretical physics was the domain of the Mukherjees, Chatterjees, Bannerjees, Bhattacharyas and Gangulys (last names of brahmins of Bengal) and that he was as good as any man on earth. (Bong-dongs and sigalph can tell you that Bose is a middle-level caste in Bengal, in case you didn`t know that.)

[How you delude yourself!]

You DO need an EEG. Really!

Ref inji-kari-kuzhambu #: 63

[The ``genius`` of the caste system is that it is insidiously hierarchical. If you were to protest against those above yourself, you risk protest from those below you. This keeps the system stable.]

Is that your explanation why the middle-level castes of your beloved Tamil Nadu are so strongly in favor of burning Dalits alive to keep them in their place?

How about breaking through the caste barrier and marrying a person from a caste just one notch lower than yours? Not even that, how about getting a Left-Hand Vellala to marry a Right-Hand Vellala?

Let me see how much your powers of logical thinking extend.

The DK/DMK/AIADMK thugs have been going around for the last 70 years saying that Hindu religion is a fraud. Since they do not say the same thing about Christianity or Islam, why is it that these idiots (and their followers like you) have not converted en masse to Islam? Then you can explain to the benighted Hindus of other states why praying to an idol in a temple at infrequent intervals is stupid but bowing down in the direction of Mecca 5 times a day and uttering words in Arabic is so much more rational. I am only sorry that your ``Great Intellectual`` passed away and so isn`t around to explain it. But the other thug whom you refuse to even call by name but reverently refer to as Doctor Artist Leader (that last part about Chief Minister is no longer valid after the last elections) may be persuaded to provide some explanation.

Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 69

[Which is why speakers of Hindi - descended from Sanskrit - have little difficulty understanding Urdu - derived from Altaic-Turkic languages.]

Dear Zafar, even if you would only do a simple search on `Linguistics` on the web, you are going to get a ton of information. With a name like al-Talib, I would have expected you to be a bit more curious unless, of course, the Talib means the Taliban ;-)

As the Moghuls (itself derived from Mongol) moved down through Central Asia and came into contact with various tribes of people, they absorbed a lot of words from the languages they encountered. By the time they reached India, they had also borrowed a lot of words from Persian. The Moghuls continued to add words to Urdu from the North Indian languages and used Urdu widely in their communications with the natives. Thus the ability of Hindi-speaking population to understand Urdu.

The Moghuls did not consider Urdu to be a refined language. That is why Persian (Farsi) continued to be their court language and language of administration.... to such an extent, the East India Company employees were required to be reasonably proficient in Persian to be posted to India. English replaced Persian as the language of administration in India in 1858. By the way, Babr wrote his Babarnama in Turkic and Jehangir wrote his memoirs (Jehangirnama) in Persian. (Akbar was illiterate and so a court historian wrote Akbarnama... just FYI)

[PS I have only recently begun to appreciate you (and Urstruly) as polemicists.]

Urstruly! Now you have gone and hurt my feelings! Well, it could have been worse. You could have lumped me with the Headshrinker.

[May I (humbly) suggest greater us of alliteration by you? This can only add to your posts.]

Tahmed321 is usually called a pathetic pea-brained Pakistani by me. Would that be sufficient?

(Still smiling.....)

Ref 12-head-Lajwanti #: 70

[Sanskrit`s grammar was defined by Panini. Here is something on Panini:

Born: about 520 BC in Shalatula (near Attock), now Pakistan

Haha, clewer billi – Paniani genius was PAKSITANI PAKSITANI PAKSITANI!!!!!!!!!]

You would be ludicrous if you weren`t so pathetic. Was there a Pakistan before Aug 14, 1947?

Why don`t you claim Panini to be a Muslim next? How about him being a Pathan?

Aren`t you the same idiots who, as Jay is wont to point out, refuse to acknowledge Abdus Salaam as a Pakistani because he is a Qadiani?

Let me give you one more fact to be proud of.

Prof. Chandrasekhar, who won the Nobel Prize for his theory of Black Holes, was born in Lahore, Pakistan.

soundmeister

“My advice: stop feeling superior/ inferior/ guilty/ outraged/ self-pitying/ angry/ anti-social/ iconoclastic and start living life on your own terms. Might be a small start, but if we all do it, maybe we won`t be so depressed about it all the time.”

….exactly…..being full of vitriol and resentment is well and good if you want to live in the past…..but if not, wake up, shake off your self-pity and smell the 21 st century….

Re: #62

harimau,

(1)

``One doesn`t have to be a Brahmin to achieve the pinnacles of academic, artistic and scientific achievement, though VC Raman and his nephew Chandrasekhar both were.``

Going back to your assertion that a dalit can have as much talent as an upper caste...isn`t your above statement telling??? Why did not a dalit ever get a noble prize?

(2)

``A very well-known Indian scientist, Satyendranath Bose, for whom the subatomic particle boson is named, was not a Brahmin.``

Yea, Yea, we know...Bose was a low, low caste dalit, right?

How you delude yourself!

best regards,

Reply Harimau # 33

More pseudo-science from Pakistan.

Sanskrit`s grammar was defined by Panini. Here is something on Panini:



Born: about 520 BC in Shalatula (near Attock), now Pakistan

Haha, clewer billi – Paniani genius was PAKSITANI PAKSITANI PAKSITANI!!!!!!!!!

Reply Harimau # 33

Interesting info on Panini. But your polemical flourish at the end:

“Urdu, on the other hand, is derived from the Altaic-Turkic languages spoken by the Moghul invaders.”

Which is why speakers of Hindi - descended from Sanskrit - have little difficulty understanding Urdu - derived from Altaic-Turkic languages.

Zafar

PS I have only recently begun to appreciate you (and Urstruly) as polemicists. May I (humbly) suggest greater us of alliteration by you? This can only add to your posts.

Reply Anarayan # 35

I tell you, I am learning more and more about Tamilian language and culture on this board. First ali. Now thayoli.

“Contrary to what northies/pakis imagine, the southie languages have rich scope for invective that can make the northie maa-behen variety appear mildly amusing. A recent I overheard:``I`ll fry fish in your a-hole``!”

And you say this how?

And many thanks for this. I know that I am not the only one who appreciates it.

Zafar

Dear Harimau, saxena etc etc,

Ha ha ha. lads, chill out willya! Harimau, you`re fizzling and popping like water on a hot pan.

Well, at least now you know how it feels to to get pissed off when someone spews shitz.

Saxena: my dear man, you`ve been assuming the role of a tattu for a very long time. Now you are being a `Khwaje da gwaa daddu,` to Harimau.

Harimau and Sax, I`ve seen you guys at your funniest for a long time.

Take care and happy new year to you both.

Anil, (great article!!!!)

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There was a doctor called Dr. Pagnakar Vartak. He was student of science . He Wrote a Book Called ` Vastava Ramayana`. That`s Meaning is real Ramayana. There is a history of America in this book. What? Columbus did not find America first!!!!! How can this possible ? He found America in 1492. Well but Hindus(Indians) were lived there so far. They were not any kind of bad people. They had their culture. But bad population destroyed their culture. Dr. Vartak gives many evidence about that. North America is Calling now as Mexico. Well There is word `Mashika` in language of sanskrit(Indian language).

From This word Makshica`s name Changed. Mexico country`s government released a book. There is history of Mexico in there. Government Wrote that:`` Those who first arrived on the continent later to be know as America, were groups of men driven by that mightily currant that set out from India to wards of East.(history of Mexico governmen t publication) Prof.

Rama Mena curator of the National Museum of Mexico, writes in his book `Maxican Archelogy` . The human types are like those of India. Their perfection of design,the irrproach able. technique of their ediets, the sumptuous Head- dress and astentatious buliding on high, the system of construction, all speek of India and the orient ....it is considered of oriental origin and of greater qutiquity than that accoreded to the Neostorian stone i.e. more than ten thousand years.``

Mantezuma the king of Mexicosad to Krish Spenishs our first people came from east. And In Nahua People Were came from India. There is word ` Nahush`. From this word Nahua word Became. After Next week we will tell you abouth this.

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Hindian neferious plan of proping Islamic Northern Alliance Afghan was bound to blow in the face .Instead of Pakistan ,now indian will face in NEFA there dragon nightmare & the `eat alive Pakistan Soldiers `in Kashmir.

Heightening tensions along border part of China`s gameplan

Jaideep Mazumdar

Kolkata, December 25



The “hostile actions” by the Chinese in Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim is, according to strategic experts, part of a well-thought-out move to corner India on two fronts. China has also beefed up its presence in Myanmar’s Coco Islands on the Bay of Bengal and plans to move in two aircraft carriers that are under construction now to the area.

“India cannot concentrate exclusively on the western theatre with Pakistan if China undertakes these measures along Arunachal and Sikkim. And it could well be that it is goading Pakistan to anti-Indian actions in Rajasthan, Punjab and Kashmir. A distracted India is a weaker India and China stands to gain the most from it,” pointed out a senior army officer.

In fact, say serving and retired officer, the situation now is quite similar to the pre-1962 situation when Beijing lulled New Delhi into a false sense of complacency.

China constructed a load linking Tibet with Xinjiang Ugyur region in 1961. This road passed through Aksai Chin area of India and to thwart any further moves by Chibna, India sent its troops to defend that territory in November 1961. By October 1962, China launched a full-scale aggression.

“This time, too, China has started acting on its claims over Arunachal and Sikkim and has constructed roads and rail links right up to our borders. It is encouraging new Chinese towns just across the border to spill over slowly into India. It is upgrading its formidable military infrastructure in the Small Coco and Great Coco Islands by stationing radar squadrons, extending two runways and beefing up the naval base there.

``At the same time, Chinese leaders are talking of peaceful resolution of the border issue with India and are trying to charm the Indian leadership into thinking that China is no threat to India. Our Foreign Minister said as much when he visited Beijing in June 1999, though our Defence Minister did say in April 1998 that China continues to represent a security threat to us,” said a retired army officer who did not want to be named.

China, said a strategic expert, has a “long memory” and has never shied away on taking concrete action on its territorial claims.

“Look at tactics China has employed to keep Japan and other countries on a leash. Apart from keeping India under pressure on the eastern front, China has been employing Pakistan as a surrogate belligerent to jeopardize India’s security,” said an analyst.

China has also been sending out conflicting signals—a few months after Jaswant Singh declared that China was no security threat to India, Chinese President Jiang Zemin made highly derogatory references to India while speaking to President Bill Clinton.

Zemin reportedly said that India would be dealt with strongly if it does not stop providing shelter to Tibetan refugees and continues to oppose China’s efforts to integrate Arunachal and Sikkim with the rest of that country. The USA’s Central Intelligence Agency sums it the best: “Beijing treats India as a country to be threatened, belittled and kept in check”. This, and other such assessments by the CIA, can be found in the CIA Factbooks.

According to the army sources, India will take at least a decade to upgrade its infrastructure in the North East to what China has on its side of the LAC now. It is learnt that the Indian Air Force (IAF) installations in the eastern and northeastern region have also been put on alert.

(Concluded)

Part I: Tensions flare along Sino-Indian border

Further to #36,

The ``genius`` of the caste system is that it is insidiously hierarchical. If you were to protest against those above yourself, you risk protest from those below you. This keeps the system stable.

Soysauce:

Let me point out that when you had people admitted to courses in Physics on merit, India produced a Nobel laureate in the form of CV Raman. The other Nobel laureate in Physics, Prof. Chandrasekhar, graduated from Presidency College, Madras, and is supposed to have formulated some of the basic ideas regarding black holes when he sailed from India to England for his PhD.

Today, under the leadership of caste-based politicians, Presidency College is known to graduate (rather, hand out degrees to) thugs who engage in street agitation. Under your famous AL Mudaliar, Vice Chancellor of the University of Madras until he died, the Economics Department celebrated the centennial of its unchanged syllabus a couple of decades back. That is the PROGRESS you get when you get casteism into educational institutions.

One doesn`t have to be a Brahmin to achieve the pinnacles of academic, artistic and scientific achievement, though VC Raman and his nephew Chandrasekhar both were. But one must have a sense of curiosity which will lead you to ask questions on why things behave the way they do. A very well-known Indian scientist, Satyendranath Bose, for whom the subatomic particle boson is named, was not a Brahmin. But then, people like Bose did not look for seats on a quota basis but were willing to match their brains against the best in the world. That is why his name is now linked with that of Einstein in particle physics.

Tell me, you pathetic excuse for human tissue, what have the quota system physicists, chemists, metallurgists, doctors, engineers and architects have produced in the last 50 years?

Ref anarayan #: 35

[Contrary to what northies/pakis imagine, the southie languages have rich scope for invective that can make the northie maa-behen variety appear mildly amusing.]

Is that so? I always learn a couple of swear words in any new language I encounter so that I am armed with a proper response when I am swore at but let me tell you, the people speaking Kannada, Malayalam or Telugu have never once told me the equivalent of the maa-behn variety, as you so charmingly put it.

[A recent I overheard:``I`ll fry fish in your a-hole``!]

Being a vegetarian, I don`t hang out with the crowd that talks about frying fish so this one is new to me. Not that I intend to use it. The maa-behn variety is plenty sufficient for me.

Ref anNy #: 31

[bhaiharimau- why do you dislike all the nice indians? soyasauce and shankar are two of the insaanlike indians on chowk and you call them cockroaches. pls dont.]

I dislike intellectual dishonesty, which these two people, amomg others, have in plenty.

Did you notice that all the cockroaches have scurried away from the proposition in my post #32? I will wait till much after New Year`s Day to ensure that all of these mental midgets have come back from their vacations and have plenty of time to ruminate and vote before accusing them of

cowardice.

Soysauce:

Let me remind you exactly what happened a couple of years back in your beloved Tamil Nadu.

In order to honor a Dalit leader, an existing state-owned bus transport company was divided into two and the second one was named for the Dalit. In a town populated mostly by Thevars, the population was upset that a bus named for a Dalit would be allowed to transit through their town, and burnt down the bus. The Dalits decided this was too much of an insult and attacked some Thevars with sickles and cut their heads off. Several more buses were burnt for being unfortunate enough to go through the disturbed areas, Thevars and Dalits took turns at stopping buses and killing members of the other community and the whole crap went on for some months (Pakistanis, we are NOT talking about a tribal area like those in NWFP or even a mountainous area here; we are talking about what passes for a nominally civilized town in the plains of Tamil Nadu) before order could be restored. And the solution to the problem was: there will be no bus company named for anybody and all existing bus companies had their name changed.

Let me point out that the most your beloved leader Karunanidhi could talk about Brahmin intolerance was that Brahmins did not allow Dalits to walk through the streets in which they lived. That was some 80 years ago when in villages the Brahmins lived on one street by themselves so that they could keep their religious observances without let or hindrance. Your folks have transferred caste even to an inanimate object like a bus and would not allow public transport go through a major town. And you have the temerity, the unmitigated gall, to talk about casteism and Brahmin oppression.

If I were you, I would not indicate on my driver`s license that I am organ donor because the first time you go to a hospital, the doctors will start harvesting your organs.

Reply #: 45

RSaxena

re: harimau #41

...you`re trying to get a chimpanzee to understand Maxwell`s Equations...

SUX SENA

The day Hindu Mythology is considered more than fiction of much less significance ..than ONE Miniscule solitary solo single among billions of muslims ,...Rushdies playfull imaginatuion like Satanic Verses ,That day The nut like Harami .Ou or Sux Sena , can write one single coherent sentence.But like all prehistoric animalistic vestigeal practices of atavistic religion,hinduism is just that

saxena, harimou,

Thank you so much for defending India`s & hindus` izzats from a twelve headed, brain dead retard ( each head is more retarded than the next).

Indians on Chowk desparately need achoots like you to clean up the garbage on Chowk.

sincerely,

appreciatively,

shankar

PS..quack quack..

HaramOu next you will say dowry is not hinduism...then did i invent this or did i make this web sit

http://indiafamily.net/talk/messages/54/117.html

http://indiafamily.net/talk/messages/54/117.html

Dowry:We pay the best price! Top Bids invited

then usually something is wrong with him unless of course he is catholic...or strong orthodox christian.....of course...

All of you who are b!tching and moaning about the disadvantages imposed by the caste system on the Dalits:

Did you read last week about the beggar girl in India who got a rank in the school final examinations? She seemed not to have spent her tome whining but used whatever means she had to prepare for the exam and she is now being offered scholarships to go to college.

How much worse than a beggar can you get in terms of social and economic inequality? That handicap didn`t faze this wonderful girl.

Soysauce, stick that fact up your rear end when you feel the urge to post something on the Chowk.

Abusive post.

All those interested in the area of caste/sect/religion - based discrimination should read an article by Gail Omvedt in the current issue of The Week.

http://www.the-week.com/21dec30/cover1.htm

For those who may not know, Gail is an American-born activist who is married to a Dalit, and has been a citizen of India for a long while now. I have found many of her writings to be rather low on understanding of the complexity and tempo of India - but this piece has surpried me: it is a fairly objecitive assessment of the broad changes afoot, and of both the challenges met and unmet, yet, by us all.

correction: the writer is Derrick Bell and not the athlete Derek Bell. Dr. Bell`s book was ``Faces at the Bottom of the Well``. He is a legal scholar and a civil rights activist and resigned from his position as president of Harvard because in protest of the dearth of Black women professors at Harvard. So, I guess we one example of someone who not only talked the talk, but walked the walk...

Harimou,

re:#32

Quite an interesting proposition...I mean I`ve heard the various cries of ``reverse racism`` among the John Birchs around the tri-state area and these protestations are the result of various affirmative action forays. But what would happen if the privileged sectors/classes/gender/races of a society voluntarily subjected themselves to the same quotas and conditions that had been imposed on nonprivileged sectors as a means of social justice? Would the extension of this idea be, to what extent would the privilleged sectors of this society be willing to work in positions that were social service oriented and low paying? Anyway...

This idea reminds me of a book by the African American writer and lawyer Derek Bell based his novel on the premise that given the opportunity and plausibility, Americans would ``ship`` African Americans to another planet rather than address the historical and economic inequities that American society was based on.

Mr. Arora,

Thanks for the great article!

regards

Ref Ref 12-head-Sadhna #: 46

[Go read post #12 again this time with your senile hypermetropia presbyopia & glaucoma Cataract corrected eyes!

The article speaks of INDIA --fool & india is not HINDU .In fact India is subcontinent consisting of 2 muslim nations Pakistan & bangladesh]

Good that your post is NOT talking about Hindu. Then a mufukka like you can provide the explanation since you were born in India and got your MBBS in India, right?

So, I still was right in asking you to get a Hindu scripture that says Yellamma is a Hindu goddess. Otherwise, you can write an interact attributing it to the Sufi influence on pure Islam.

Saxena was right. I am trying to talk with a chimpanzee here, except that real chimps have some use as in medical experiments and in the first flights into space.

A nice read. I`ll just make a couple of points:

Your question: ``Why is the caste hierearchy so important to upper-class Hinuds?`` Is it really? I guess it is. But it`s reducing from generation to generation, as value systems shift and a whole new world opens up. How many of your friends married for love, as opposed to your father`s? Give it time.

Arun Shourie, whom you seem to view as some kind of snake in the grass, is not an EVIL person, I don`t think. His point of view is not unique: a lot of students who found that their chances at a bright future were suddenly going to reduce by an enormous percentage back in 1989 felt they were being hard done by. Especially in urban India where the current generation hardly feels any `advantage` of being born `privileged`. Shourie`s point of view was also not 100% wrong in the sense that a lot of riff-raff got through the holes in the system just because they were in the right place at the right time. Enough horror stories abound about students with pathetic marks making the grade only becasue of a caste certificate. Having seen enough careers ruined by this phenomenon, I wouldn`t be so casually dismissive about it.

Your example of the number of scams and blunders by the engineers, doctors and scientists who emerged as a result of the reservation policy is also rather funny. Firstly, it would take at least a generation before the effects of the change if any, were to become observable. Secondly, nature has a way of restoring balance, or at least, reaching a new stable equilibrium. It`s really stupid to assume that the overall level of a doctor/engineer/whatever would drop drastically because of the reservation policy. At most there would be a temporary dip. But let`s not discount the suffering of those first sacrificial lambs on the altar of equality. Simply put, they were screwed. Royally.

Your conversion theories are also slightly misguided because:

(a). How many hindus converted to Islam and Christianity by making a rational evaluation of the choices available?

(b). Neo-Buddist conversions were purely led by Dr. Ambedkar and his avowed anti-Hinduism. The principles of Buddhism were hardly imbibed, the sole idea being to get as far away from the hindu fold as possible.

(c). If conversion to Islam and Christianity did little to change the `status` of those who converted, maybe those who converted them with false promises of manna need to be examined, not the concept of caste itself.

At the end of the day, you have tried to link everything bad in today`s India, from inefficiency to corruption to the `brain drain` on the caste system. Which makes you no different from those who blame the same set of problems on the Muslim invasions, British rule, Nehruvian socialsim, the Congress, Manu, the Rigveda and whatever else is available. Which does precious little to tackle the basic issue: we need to take responsibilty for ourselves and our actions. Allocating blame is so easy, and it`s also a great way of avoiding taking any responsibility.

My advice: stop feeling superior/ inferior/ guilty/ outraged/ self-pitying/ angry/ anti-social/ iconoclastic and start living life on your own terms. Might be a small start, but if we all do it, maybe we won`t be so depressed about it all the time.

Cheers,

Sound.

Pak deploys medium range missiles along LoC

PTI

Jammu, December 25



Pakistan has deployed Medium Range Ballistic Missile Batteries (MRBBs) along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Poonch sectors in an action that will further escalate the tension between the two countries.

Pakistan`s strategic units have been engaged in the past 24 hours in deploying MRBBs along the LoC in Jammu and Poonch sectors, defence sources told PTI here on Tuesday night.

``It is disturbing that MRBBs have been deployed along the LoC, particularly in some sensitive areas in Jammu sector,`` the sources said.

``We apprehend that Pakistan`s strategic units may use ballistic missiles in Jammu sector. We are keeping a close watch,`` they said.

How can India fight Pak & China Together ,WHEN IN 62 THEY WERE FRIED LIKE FRIES in Cows Animal Fat Shortening at the NEFA Mc Mennons Joint.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/251201/detNAT06.asp

China toes Pakistan line on Kashmir, calls it core issue

Udayan Namboodiri

(New Delhi, December 24)





On the eve of Prime Minister Zhu Rongji`s visit in New Delhi, China has struck a jarring note on Kashmir.

A senior official of the Chinese Foreign Ministry has described it as the ``core issue`` in Indo-Pakistan relations on the last day of General Pervez Musharraf`s four-day official visit to the country.

The remark has left the government stunned. South Block has established contact with Beijing for a clarification.

Sources said that the remark was made by the deputy director general of the Chinese foreign office. Indian diplomats in Beijing are believed to be seeking the Chinese version of what the official said.

The Musharraf`s visit to China was marked by some anti-India rhetoric. The Pakistani leader and his chief spokesman, Major General Rashid Qureshi, both claimed in their interactions with the Pakistani media that China had offered to play the ``mediator`` role in Kashmir.

What is surprising is that though Beijing consistently maintained in the past that it viewed Kashmir as a bilateral matter, it did not officially deny the visiting Pakistani leader`s remarks.

Of course, a formal Chinese make-up to India can be expected over the next few days on this. But the fact remains that New Delhi`s sensitivities have been hurt.

But how will China explain its gift of a loan package for Pakistan-occupied Kashmir? Musha-rraf secured an agreement during his trip ostensibly to develop infrastructure in PoK and the Northern Areas. The diplomatic import of this deal is not missed in New Delhi. It amounts to a direct Chinese rebuff, sources say, to India`s legitimate claim over PoK.

According to one official, the Chinese move is loaded with interpretations.

It is not simply a piece of economic assistance but at one level a message to India of Beijing`s unstinted support to the Pak-sponsored moves towards the divisibility of Kashmir. Secondly, the security implications of Pakistan building fresh roads in PoK cannot be overstated, say experts.

The Janus-faced India policy of China is also manifested in the dialogue process for solution of the vexed border question. In recent months, China and India have held two rounds of talks at the experts group level on the contentious Line of Actual Control (LAC).

In addition, the joint working group on the LAC has met. But, in spite of its commitment to dialogue, Beijing has been pressuring India to accept its proposal to open a border trading post in Sikkim in spite of the fact that China does not recognise India`s sovereign right over the state.

India has been quite sensitive to China`s feelings on the Dalai Lama and Taiwan.

But China`s response to the Parliament attack has been less than unequivocal in terms of support. Though condemning the attack, Beijing has twice stated the need for ``restraint`` on India`s part. Of course, South Block has glossed over this curious stand.

re: harimau #41

...you`re trying to get a chimpanzee to understand Maxwell`s Equations...

anil saari arora,

i have to commend you for keeping your cool so elegantly. that shows class, something some interactors here need desperately.

For MaheshG #20

Thank you for correcting me re. the correct spelling of Murugan`s name.

re: soysauce

{{Moron: There are lots of indians who have come thru the reservation system that are very competent and accomplished and are better humans than you could ever hope to be. I can name names but I`m sure they wouldn`t want me to drag their names into an argument with a guttersnipe like you}}

...and he said otherwise?...looks the whole friggin point of his argument flew over your head faster than the lice crawling across it...me thinks that makes you the moron, not him...

Ref 12-head-Sadhna #: 12

I want you to go find an authentic Hindu scripture that defines Yellamma to be a Hindu goddess. Yellamma is not a Sanskrit name. Yellamma is thus not a Hindu goddess but a tribal goddess of parts of Andhra and Karnataka. Why should a Hindu be asked to explain the phenomenon of devadasis, let alone apologize for it, when this is a tribal tradition that has been handed down through some ``noble`` savages?

Go and read the Vedas. The only gods mentioned are Indra (god of the thunderbolt), Vishnu, Vayu (god of wind), Varuna (god of water), Agni (god of fire) and Rudra. Take those forces of nature out and you only have Vishnu and Rudra as additional gods. Tell me where Yellamma comes into Hinduism. In India, if you don`t declare yourself to be a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jain, Zorastrian or Jew, you are automatically counted as Hindu. It may be the right term because Hindu comes from India but Hinduism is not my religion. Mine has no name but is known as the Sanatana Dharma (The Eternal Way). So take your mythical Hinduism and ask those who worship Yellamma where in the scriptures Yellamma has been declared to be a goddess and where in the scriptures Yellamma requests virgins to be dedicated as devadasis.

It is good that India doesn`t have active volcanoes otherwise pea-brained idiots like you will be declaring those virgins sacrificed to the volcanoes to be another barbarism of Hinduism.

Screw you all. My religion calls for me to worship those elements of Nature that have goven me sustenance throughout the ages and that is what I do. Take your questions about Yellamma or the Goddess of Small-Pox to the ``noble`` savages that you all espouse.

harimau:

So you do not like the quota system.Fine.But please do no forget that 100s of generations of brahmins have been beneficiaries of the quota system--except then it was by divine command,you were born into it!For thousands of years this caste system in nothing but a quota system which resulted in denying the right even to a brahmin to take up a manual(but honourable job) instead of coercing him to become a mendicant,living on alms & hoodwinking others by such `professions` as rekha-rakshaks.

Varna was nothing but a quota system which produced an incompetent medicine man because he could not pursue career as a boot-maker for which he had an an aptitude & talent.

So just grin & bear it now.It is not a pleasant experience to be on the other side but then one always has the freedom to become the best toilet manufacturer in India---who can hire health professionals(MDs) or astrologers(for fengshui).

Think about it.

Ref Lajwanti aka 12-head #: 28

I forgot to add this.

Based on the research showing that Urdu pre-dates Sanskrit, Romila Thapar would be pleased to offer full academic positions for these researchers since their views coincide with the research direction at Jawaharlal Nehru University.

Ref meen-kuzhambu #: 36

[The article is way too long for me to get through. I`m not criticising you as i believe it is very important to debate the caste issue as fully as we can and more. But long article tend to put folks (like me) off.]

Yep. Your brain gets tired, doesn`t it? Why would people like you even think when you can have Dina Thanthi (the daily fishwrapper and birdcage liner of Tamil Nadu) do your thinking for you? How did you manage to get a college degree?

[Think of all the taboos that you have grown up with. Which of those would you violate on your own accord? Caste is another taboo. Transcending conditioning is a very hard thing to do.]

My friend just told me that a nephew (a Tamil Brahmin) is marrying a Muslim girl he is working with.

Let us take all those DK/DMK/AIADMK and all other self-described ``reformists`` of Tamil Nadu. Has any one of their thousands of party functionaries married a Muslim? I would settle for anecdotal evidence of one such marriage.

[The concern that a physican that came thru the reservation system may not be competent is understandable. BUT, it is a myth that most everyone that came thru the system as it used to be was competent. What used to be a factor previously was the connections you had or where your relatives were placed. The reservation system has supplanted the old system and has democratized it. Arun Shourie may be right but only partly..]

If you examined the applications for professional colleges, rank-ordered them by their grades in Grade 12, and simply took in the top n number of people where n is the number of seats in professional colleges, you would have a merit-based system. Kerala actually used to do this in the 60s. It was Tamil Nadu that introduced the concept of an interview where questions like the height of Everest would be used to determine if you are qualified to be a doctor or engineer. This, with of course 87% reservations for the ``backward classes`` as opposed to the Mandal Commission recommendation of, what, 50%?

Tell me of one person, a Pallan or Paraiyan, who has been able to leave his backbreaking work in the fields of Tamil Nadu and has been able to go through the educational system becoming a doctor, engineer or architect. If a Dalit became one, he was already at least a lower-middle-class person, with access to education.

All you have done is to use the quota system to transfer jobs from the meritorious people to those who deserve to be dumped in the trash heap of humankind. Having done nothing to get into the professional colleges, they of course bring political pressure to be able to graduate too. These idiots then get government jobs which they treat as another entitlement where they should get a monthly salary for doing nothing; in fact for obstructing the normal flow of work by demanding bribes.

This has reduced the city of Madras to such a state that the ordinary lowly job of collecting trash from the streets (you would think that this requires no particular skills) has been handed over to Waste Management, Inc.`s Singapore branch. We are not talking about building rockets or the Light Combat Aircraft here. I would suggest that with this level of competence in civil and sanitary engineering, we have reached the absolute nadir of the quota system but I am sure you would disagree until Madras is buried in trash 150 feet high.

If you truly want to contract out a function with the aim of improving the future, I would seriously suggest that you fcukers ask foreigners to take over the job of reproducing the next generation of Indians.

#31 anNy

That was sweet of you to say.

Harimou probably grew up in an environment where certain words were freely used between brothers and friends. You and i are far removed from that environment. You better not inquire further...

Moron: There are lots of indians who have come thru the reservation system that are very competent and accomplished and are better humans than you could ever hope to be. I can name names but I`m sure they wouldn`t want me to drag their names into an argument with a guttersnipe like you - therefore, i`ll just mention that one of them recently won an american physical society award and is a very well-known theorist.

The article is way too long for me to get through. I`m not criticising you as i believe it is very important to debate the caste issue as fully as we can and more. But long article tend to put folks (like me) off.

At any rate, why do the upper castes continue to discriminate? There`s a flippant (but true) answer: Because they happen to be at the top. There`s a not so flippant answer as well: we have been so conditioned that it`s hard for us to change. Think of all the taboos that you have grown up with. Which of those would you violate on your own accord? Caste is another taboo. Transcending conditioning is a very hard thing to do. Even among the dalits there is some hierarchy and rules regarding intercourse among the various jatis. It`s not as tho they benefit economically or socially from this arrangement. But the certitude of where they stand relative to all others more than compensates for the burden of having to adhere to all these rules.

I should also mention that it`s not always that the so-called upper castes enjoy special privileges. There`s a subcaste among the brahmins (the temple pujaris) who are at the lowest among the brahmins and on occasion may even rank below some of the other non-brahmin high castes. There are also places (in southern tamil nadu, for example) where the brahmins are subservient to the so-called lower castes who have the economic and political power. This precedes the advent of the various ``dravidian`` parties in tamil nadu.

The concern that a physican that came thru the reservation system may not be competent is understandable. BUT, it is a myth that most everyone that came thru the system as it used to be was competent. What used to be a factor previously was the connections you had or where your relatives were placed. The reservation system has supplanted the old system and has democratized it. Arun Shourie may be right but only partly..

Re: #31

anNy,

``whats a thayoli? a thaeli, bag?``

Boy! you HAD to ask, didn`t you?! The said word means mo`fker in tamil.

Contrary to what northies/pakis imagine, the southie languages have rich scope for invective that can make the northie maa-behen variety appear mildly amusing. A recent I overheard:``I`ll fry fish in your a-hole``!

In this anonymous chowk forum, Hari-ji was only showing us his quality brahmin (non-quota) upbringing.

regards,

Anil Saari Arora:

You asked me why non-resident Indians are averse to collective self-analysis. Let me give you one example of denial of reality in India. You can explain why there is this refusal to accept historical evidence.

The language Tamil has a rich poetic history. They claim to have had three distinct poetry associations named, paradoxically enough in Sanskrit, Sanghams. The total length these sanghams existed according to Tamil legends is 10,000 years! The claim is made that the last of these sanghams was already extinct two millennia ago.

There is one poem in Tamil that describes an encounter between the poet and a fisherwoman. The poet asks the fisherwoman for food and the fisherwoman refuses saying that she is an Untouchable (Dalit, in today`s terms) and cannot possibly give food to the poet.

Even if you discount the legends regarding the sanghams, this poem dates back to at least the 6th century AD. This means that Untouchability was practiced by the local Tamils even before the incursion of any Aryan/Brahmin/Hindu influence on these natives. Why would they not discuss this poem in classes in Tamil Nadu asking the students to introspect a little and figure out whether Untouchability was practiced by the noble Tamil race? Why is Karunanidhi (a native Telugu speaker) or MGR (a Malayalam speaker) allowed to parade their love of Tamil and get elected on the basis of Brahmin-bashing when the Tamil`s own poetry accuses the Tamils of practicing Untouchability? An American professor of Tamil has written an 80-page treatise on this one poem alone. Why is this being suppressed in Tamil Nadu? Political necessity?

Can that thayoli soysauce answer this? Of course, that mofo hasn`t heard of this poem because he probably went to an English-medium school and is now a code coolie.

But them bashing Hinduism and by extension brahmins gets you votes if you are a politician and a secure job at Jawaharlal Nehru University or Bharathidasan University if you are a pseudo-academic.

Ref Lajwanti aka 12-head #: 28

[Take THAT HINDIAN HOGEMONISTS!!!!!! esp Harimiaowmiaowmiaow1

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2001-weekly/nos-23-12-2001/lit.htm#4

Separating Urdu from Sanskrit]

More pseudo-science from Pakistan.

Sanskrit`s grammar was defined by Panini. Here is something on Panini:



Born: about 520 BC in Shalatula (near Attock), now Pakistan

Died: about 460 BC in India



Panini was born in Shalatula, a town near to Attock on the Indus river in present day Pakistan. The dates given for Panini are pure guesses. Experts give dates in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th century BC and there is also no agreement among historians about the extent of the work which he undertook. What is in little doubt is that, given the period in which he worked, he is one of the most innovative people in the whole development of knowledge. We will say a little more below about how historians have gone about trying to pinpoint the date when Panini lived.

Panini was a Sanskrit grammarian who gave a comprehensive and scientific theory of phonetics, phonology, and morphology. Sanskrit was the classical literary language of the Indian Hindus and Panini is considered the founder of the language and literature. It is interesting to note that the word ``Sanskrit`` means ``complete`` or ``perfect`` and it was thought of as the divine language, or language of the gods.

A treatise called Astadhyayi (or Astaka ) is Panini`s major work. It consists of eight chapters, each subdivided into quarter chapters. In this work Panini distinguishes between the language of sacred texts and the usual language of communication. Panini gives formal production rules and definitions to describe Sanskrit grammar. Starting with about 1700 basic elements like nouns, verbs, vowels, consonants he put them into classes. The construction of sentences, compound nouns etc. is explained as ordered rules operating on underlying structures in a manner similar to modern theory. In many ways Panini`s constructions are similar to the way that a mathematical function is defined today. Joseph writes in [2]:-

[Sanskrit`s] potential for scientific use was greatly enhanced as a result of the thorough systemisation of its grammar by Panini. ... On the basis of just under 4000 sutras [rules expressed as aphorisms], he built virtually the whole structure of the Sanskrit language, whose general `shape` hardly changed for the next two thousand years. ... An indirect consequence of Panini`s efforts to increase the linguistic facility of Sanskrit soon became apparent in the character of scientific and mathematical literature. This may be brought out by comparing the grammar of Sanskrit with the geometry of Euclid - a particularly apposite comparison since, whereas mathematics grew out of philosophy in ancient Greece, it was ... partly an outcome of linguistic developments in India.

Joseph goes on to make a convincing argument for the algebraic nature of Indian mathematics arising as a consequence of the structure of the Sanskrit language. In particular he suggests that algebraic reasoning, the Indian way of representing numbers by words, and ultimately the development of modern number systems in India, are linked through the structure of language.

Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini`s notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today`s theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago.

At the beginning of this article we mentioned that certain concepts had been attributed to Panini by certain historians which others dispute. One such theory was put forward by B Indraji in 1876. He claimed that the Brahmi numerals developed out of using letters or syllables as numerals. Then he put the finishing touches to the theory by suggesting that Panini in the eighth century BC (earlier than most historians place Panini) was the first to come up with the idea of using letters of the alphabet to represent numbers.

There are a number of pieces of evidence to support Indraji`s theory that the Brahmi numerals developed from letters or syllables. However it is not totally convincing since, to quote one example, the symbols for 1, 2 and 3 clearly don`t come from letters but from one, two and three lines respectively. Even if one accepts the link between the numerals and the letters, making Panini the originator of this idea would seem to have no more behind it than knowing that Panini was one of the most innovative geniuses that world has known so it is not unreasonable to believe that he might have made this step too.

There are other works which are closely associated with the Astadhyayi which some historians attribute to Panini, others attribute to authors before Panini, others attribute to authors after Panini. This is an area where there are many theories but few, if any, hard facts.

We also promised to return to a discussion of Panini`s dates. There has been no lack of work on this topic so the fact that there are theories which span several hundreds of years is not the result of lack of effort, rather an indication of the difficulty of the topic. The usual way to date such texts would be to examine which authors are referred to and which authors refer to the work. One can use this technique and see who Panini mentions.

There are ten scholars mentioned by Panini and we must assume from the context that these ten have all contributed to the study of Sanskrit grammar. This in itself, of course, indicates that Panini was not a solitary genius but, like Newton, had ``stood on the shoulders of giants``. Now Panini must have lived later than these ten but this is absolutely no help in providing dates since we have absolutely no knowledge of when any of these ten lived.

What other internal evidence is there to use? Well of course Panini uses many phrases to illustrate his grammar any these have been examined meticulously to see if anything is contained there to indicate a date. To give an example of what we mean: if we were to pick up a text which contained as an example ``I take the train to work every day`` we would know that it had to have been written after railways became common. Let us illustrate with two actual examples from the Astadhyayi which have been the subject of much study. The first is an attempt to see whether there is evidence of Greek influence. Would it be possible to find evidence which would mean that the text had to have been written after the conquests of Alexander the Great? There is a little evidence of Greek influence, but there was Greek influence on this north east part of the Indian subcontinent before the time of Alexander. Nothing conclusive has been identified.

Another angle is to examine a reference Panini makes to nuns. now some argue that these must be Buddhist nuns and therefore the work must have been written after Buddha. A nice argument but there is a counter argument which says that there were Jaina nuns before the time of Buddha and Panini`s reference could equally well be to them. Again the evidence is inconclusive.

There are references by others to Panini. However it would appear that the Panini to whom most refer is a poet and although some argue that these are the same person, most historians agree that the linguist and the poet are two different people. Again this is inconclusive evidence.

Let us end with an evaluation of Panini`s contribution by Cardona in [1]:-

Panini`s grammar has been evaluated from various points of view. After all these different evaluations, I think that the grammar merits asserting ... that it is one of the greatest monuments of human intelligence.

[Article by: J J O`Connor and E F Robertson]

Urdu, on the other hand, is derived from the Altaic-Turkic languages spoken by the Moghul invaders. The word Urdu itself is thought to be

derived from `horde` and means `the language of the army camps`. So don`t try to build a pedigree for this b@stard language. It won`t wash.

Let us take a poll right here.

The reality: Forward castes amongst Hindus pay for the oppression in times past of the Dalits by being forced into a quota system that doesn`t recognize merit.

The proposition: For 1000 years of oppression of Hindus, Indian Muslims must be forced into a rigid quota system that limits their participation in professional education and government jobs to 2% of the available seats.

Everybody gets to say their say right here on Chowk. Everybody gets one vote except of course Studebaker who gets 15-18 votes depending on how many nicks he has.

The poll is open to Pakistanis too. So we can have Ali1, ylh, Urstruly, Romair, Tahmed321, etc., voting.

Let us see where your intellectual honesty (of which there is pathetic little on display here) goes when your ox is gored.

Let us watch in amusement as the hand-wringing apologetic namby-pamby limp-wristed brainwashed Hindus fall all over themselves to vote against the proposition along with all the Mughal-wannabes in Pakistan who already claim that Muslims are being discriminated against. Anil Saari Arora can vote too and get all his favorite historians to vote.

Let us get the total intellectual vacuity of all these idiots on full display here on Chowk. At least we will know who has used his god-given gift of a brain to store and regurgitate the absolute rubbish that passes for education in India and has never used the anaytic powers that such a brain may possess.