Caste, Technology and Religious Conversions in India

An excellent article Anil.

I have a few basic questions:

1)Varna means colour,does it not.Then is the division not based on race,originally?How comw most brahmins are of fair complexion.How & when did the dark coloured brahmins start getting accepted?

2)I have a sneaking suspicion that the Brahmins have a Hebrew(not Judaic/bani-Islraeli!) origin.The western race-oriented ethos derives its ethos from the old testament(Ham,the son of Noah,& progeny,was cursed to serve Sam,semites,--& his progeny-- at the time of division of the Earth after the Flood).As most of us are aware Jews look down upon menial & manual work even today.Their idea of bliss is centered upon the concept of /Golem (origin of the word Ghulam in arabic).This mythical creature was a pre-historic Robot who was always at the Hebrews command to perform menial tasks.Manual Work,the hebrews think/thought was a curse & a punishment to Man by God for his infraction.

Even today the Jewish idea of observing Sabath,among other rituals,is not to do manual work.So much so that pushing any button is work.It is observed very diligently throughout the `civilised` world by a majority.Elevators & crosswalks are pre-programmed from friday to saturday dusk to move at stop/start each floor so the jews do not have to push any buttons.

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The clear-cut absence of racism & egalitarianism west of Hindu-Kush & throughout muslim lands speaks volumes to us.Among muslims of Indian origins this diabolical practise has manage to cling under various traditions,practices,& ceremonies---especially in the Punjab.May Allah steer us on to the right path and guide us to put into practice the eternally `modern` message for all mankind.

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A very exhaustive antemortem (hopefully)dissection of indian society -caste ,politics,religous,historical,architechtaral,craft ,artesan,--together with its dynamic effect on evolving changing diaspora.

Arun Shourie though is one crap of a scholar ,made into a minister b/c of his sanghi parivar connection

Hamzad Mian,

Your ``information`` and your ``knowledge`` never ceases to astonish me.

Have you ever been to the Middle East?

Prem---4

[Hamzad Mian,

Your ``information`` and your ``knowledge`` never ceases to astonish me.

Have you ever been to the Middle East?]

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I write a simple post without rancour or bile,for a change(;0) & now you confound me by putting quotation marks on /information & /knowledge .

Please provide context to what you said.

_________________________________.

What I ``understand`` is that you are perhaps referring to the way the third worlders are treated by the locals.Such `treatment` is also meted out to the Russians & East Europeans in Israel.

But this is an entirely different phenomenon & is NOT rooted in racism.

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I`ve been to the middle-east & Israel--but as a tourist only.Speaking their language & dressing like them opens up a whole different world.The dollar-donkeys from Indo-Pak mistakenly think that by their Zero-level english they might pass themselves as brown-goraas(HA HA HA).The contempt for such kind is awaited wherever pride & honour are still considered virtues.

.

The Sabath practices I mentioned are as observed in the western world.

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Hamzad Afaqui;

Could Golem, the mystical robot creature that does menial tasks bear any kinship to Gollum, the cunning subterranean monster-servant in Tolkien`s Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit?

It is wondrous the shapes words take, how they surprise you with their associations.

Were it to be possible, what do you think we would find if we would trace all words back to their roots? Would it be possible, through tracing our collective phonetic histories, to visit the original language of Adam and Eve?

Aamir

The author says, ``Many historians, such as Percival Spear, also believe that it was not so much the Muslim rulers of medieval India who forced mass conversions, but the teachings of equality (among human beings) which were preached by the Sufi pirs. It is an argument that seems more plausible, because we see in the post-1947 period that some Dalit sub-groups have left the fold of Hinduism and converted to Buddhism.``

Another pathetic attempt to whitewash the crimes of Islamist thugs by blaming it all on Hinduism. Id Islam practices equality, why is it that there are castes in Pakistan? If Christians in India are supposedly free of the prejudices of the caste system, why is it that Christians of the Konkan coast take pride in their Brahmin ancestry and refuse to marry except amongst themselves?

If indeed it is equality that caused mass conversion of lower-caste Hindus, why is it that Muslims were 35% of pre-Partition India but Christians were less than 2%? Doesn`t Christianity offer equality to its adherents without any of the nonsense about fasting during the working hours for an entire month and denying them the only protein they could afford, namely, bacon, pork and ham?

The author says, ``For instance, about ten years ago, in his voluble and forcefully argued essays and pamphlets against the OBC reservations proposed by the Mandal Commission - Arun Shourie, one of the more widely respected intellectuals of the modern Indian elite, asked his readers whether we should accept doctors, engineers, etc, who were not qualified to perform the critical professional assignments that their new status would grant them if the Mandal Commission’s recommendations were implemented?``

Better still, ask the question ``Will the politicians who have promoted these ideas accept medical care at the hands of the doctors they have created?`` Why the fcuk did that Great Fraud C. N. Annadurai go to the US for treatment of his cancer when he could have gotten treatment at the hands of one of his ``backward class`` medical doctors? Why is that other fraud Karunanidhi doing the same thing? Why is it that the population of Tamil Nadu which has put up with 87% of professional education reserved for ``backward classes`` for the last 30 years is paying for these fcukers` treatment abroad when they themselves have to accept substandard treatment by ``quota system`` doctors?

The author says, ``Another kind of `conversion` seems to be taking place among Indians during the last twenty years and more – of Hindus who are very much committed to Hinduism the religion, but who do not wish to live in Hindustan. They are Hindus of Indian origin who are either renouncing their Indian passports (i.e. their Indian nationality) or are unwilling to return to live in India.]

Maybe they are tired of the sh!t that they get in India that their caste matters more than their knowledge and skills. Maybe they are tired of the crap that passes as logic in this article and are telling you all to shove it where it belongs. Maybe they are proud that, no matter what their caste is, they are regarded as people of worth and are not discriminated against for the sins of earlier generations in other countries. Maybe they are just fcuking tired of seeing a great country populated by some of the best people on earth being turned into a fourth-rate nation by politicians and scam artists. Maybe they are just too fcuking honest to survive amongst the thieves and robber-barons who pass for political leaders and statesmen in India today.

Have you considered that possibility? Or, are you wearing blinkers that hide the truth from your eyes?

Ansari--6

The ONLY true learning is that of Language & its use .Just as numbers & the techniques to use them is the basis of ALL science.

Now what to read must be left to the individual.No government should ever prescribe or proscribe reading material as syllabii or curriculum.This is the curse of the modern times that vocations & skills(with their attendant monetary & authoritative power--or lack thereof) is being mistaken as knowledge/.When Commmisioners & Generals(&their minions) start presiding at mushairaas & mosques the one can safely predict that rot has set in a society.

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The art of words & the science of numbers is the only knowledge/ there is to pursue.Anything other than that is just education/.

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I`ve not read any Tolkeins` work,nor have I seen the movie as yet.I do pay a lot of attention to the script & dialogue of any movie or tvshow--even,the phlebian kind,and I must say that these folks go unsung most of the time.It is very sad that action(because of ADD these days),gaudy sets,and special effects have robbed the true worth of most productions.

You`ll be amazed how much effort the writers put into the scripts.

Yes it is the same Golem.

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Harimau #7

People proud of their own worth, such as yourself - if they forsake their own land, then are they not escaping from the travails that exist in their homeland; instead of trying to solve the problems of their own society?

Why should you use abusive language in order to run down (or make a point vis a vis) somebody who has a different point of view? What can such invective serve except to strengthen divisions? Isn`t this a typical politician`s trick, to substitute argument with invectives.

Don`t you think that a society/community/religious or philosophic system needs to be self-analytical if it is to eradicate such flaws as may have crept into its practice?

Why do non-resident Indian Hindus such as yourself seem so averse to self-analysis at the collective level? Is it because in an alien environment you need to believe in something absolutely perfect, in order that your sense of identity somehow survives?

Re: #7

harimau,

``Better still, ask the question ``Will the politicians who have promoted these ideas accept medical care at the hands of the doctors they have created?`` Why the fcuk did that Great Fraud C. N. Annadurai go to the US for treatment of his cancer when he could have gotten treatment at the hands of one of his ``backward class`` medical doctors? Why is that other fraud Karunanidhi doing the same thing? Why is it that the population of Tamil Nadu which has put up with 87% of professional education reserved for ``backward classes`` for the last 30 years is paying for these fcukers` treatment abroad when they themselves have to accept substandard treatment by ``quota system`` doctors?``

How righteous your anger!

Err...how about MGR? I remember he too went to the US for some treatment and Jayalalitha too. Did they not have some `real`, NOBC (Not-OBC) doctor`s around ???

The best hospitals in Tamil Nadu are the Apollos...owned by...(horrors) the Reddys...more OBCs, damn!

Never mind all that. But with your permission, I`ll write immediately to the Space Research Board chairman demanding that they not to have any dealings with Abdul Kalam. This converted fisherman caste person couldn`t possibly have any talent whatsoever, whatever degrees he holds.

regards,

#: 7

harimau

The author says, ``Many historians, such as Percival Spear, also believe that it was not so much the Muslim rulers of medieval India who forced mass conversions, but the teachings of equality (among human beings) which were preached by the Sufi pirs. It is an argument that seems more plausible, because we see in the post-1947 period that some Dalit sub-groups have left the fold of Hinduism and converted to Buddhism.``

---------

Harimou

You can think & BELIEVEcows fly & Mahabharata invented aeroplane & Arun Shourie is Bertrand Russell incarnate .

The reason only 2 % indian are christian b/c you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule .By the time British reached India through East India co .India already was 37 % muslim.

As to your contention ludicurous as it is ,if even 5 % of the muslims were FORCED muslims ,there should have been drop in Muslim % AFTER partition B/c IT WOULD BE MORE PROFITABLE FOR THE ERSTWHILE HINDU WHO ACCORDING TO YOU WERE FORCED INTO ISLAM,SHOULD HAVE REVERTED BACK TO HINDUISM ,BUT TO DATE NOT EVEN ONE SUCH CASE IS RECORDED!!

I am sure the wretched condition most of the indian muslims are due to neglect ,if they were unreal or grudgingly ,muslim,why would they choose to be persecuted or Atleast accept 2nd level citizenshiop ,when they could easily call them selves Hindu ,& neither would they have to keep Roza nor peray 5 times & memorise foreign arabic sura & koran!

Think if you have bheja or i dontr care ewhether you ar Brahmin or not ,a sudra is better than you

http://www.ncmonline.com/content/ncm/2001/dec/1204uglysecret.html

New Film About One Of India`s Ugliest Secrets



India-West, By Lisa Tsering, December 4, 2001

Los Angeles--The ritualistic sexual abuse of young girls in India is the topic of Maya, a devastating new film from first-time director Dijvijay Singh.

Maya screened last week at the Regus London Film Festival, and the film has gotten raves at film festivals in Montreal, Vancouver, Chicago and Toronto for its unsparing depiction of India`s little-understood devadasi tradition.

Twelve-year-old Maya (Nitya Shetty) lives on the outskirts of Hyderabad with her middle class family - her father, Arun (Anand Nag); mother Lakshmi (Mita Vashist); and 11-year-old cousin Sanjay (Nikhil Yadav), her constant companion for nonstop childish pranks and mischief.

The day that Maya reaches puberty, though, her childish fun comes to an abrupt end as relatives start planning for the biggest event of the young girl`s life: a feast and ceremony to dedicate her to the goddess Yellamma.

Maya doesn`t understand why the grownups seem to be talking in code, and why such care is being taken to choose just the right sari and the most astrologically auspicious date for her ceremony - although the village women shoot each other a few pained glances. Like a good, obedient daughter, she silently complies, up to the moment she is led into a dark room in the temple where a group of waiting priests awaits as a huge, wooden door is closed behind her.

Digvijay Singh and Maya`s producers, Dileep Singh Rathode and Emmanuel Pappas, have been working on the film for the past five years and are finally getting the attention and rewards they so rightly deserve. The subject matter is never made titillating, nor is it glossed over.

``The character of Maya is not based on any one girl`s story,`` Rathode told India-West after a recent screening of the film. ``Reports from nongovernmental organizations state that until recently, as many as 15,000 girls were believed to be used as devadasis`` in Andhra Pradesh, Orissa and Karnataka.

In villages deep in rural India, young girls are still ``dedicated to God,`` namely, given to temple priests, as brides as part of the devadasi tradition. Although outlawed in India, the devadasi tradition persists, primarily among the dalit community.

A report quoted by Human Rights Watch states that ``Thousands of untouchable female children (between 6 and 8 years) are forced to become maidens of God, (Devadasis or Jogins) ... They are taken from their families, never to see them again. They are later raped by the temple priest and finally auctioned secretly into prostitution and ultimately die from AIDS.`` In the film`s press materials, the filmmakers include links to NGO Web sites documenting the reach of this specialized type of abuse.

Rathode, a cousin of Singh`s, worked as a coordinator in Mumbai for numerous Kapoor family productions before working as an independent line producer for a number of foreign films in India, including City of Joy and The Deceivers (a 1988 film starring Pierce Brosnan).

Singh, too, had worked as an assistant director on Indian film and television productions and TV commercials before moving to Los Angeles to enter the filmmaking program at UCLA. The two teamed up with Emmanuel Pappas, also a filmmaking student at UCLA, to form Kundalini Pictures, their production company based in Los Angeles.

The film was shot in locations in the Telangana district of Andhra Pradesh, and some scenes were even shot in a temple where the ritual is said to have taken place.

Actress Nitya Shetty, at age 10 already a veteran of 16 films, has acted since she was five in Telugu films, TV commercials and serials. In 1999, the state of Andhra Pradesh honored her with an award for Best Child Actor for her work in the film Channi Channi Asa, and she appears in the recent hit film Devadu.

Mita Vashisht has appeared in more than 20 films, including Taal and Dil Se; and Anand Nag was worked with Shashi Kapoor, Rekha and Shabana Azmi in a career spanning 30 years and 150 films.

The producers of Maya are currently working with a distributor to bring the film to a wider audience; till now, it has only been seen at festivals.

By setting the story in a middle class household, it makes it easier for viewers to relate to the characters and harder for them to dismiss what happens as some obscure Third World ritual, said Rathode.

The sheer ordinariness of Maya`s ritual - its unquestioned acceptance in the community and the casual attitude with which the villagers feast while she screams from inside the temple - give the film a terrifying edge.

But the film goes deeper than simply chronicling a crime of exploitation. Cinematographer Mark Lapwood uses long, languid shots that draw out the day-to-day tedium of small town life, and Manesh Judge`s haunting music enhances the entire work. Maya presents an ugly scenario with surprising beauty and subtlety.

Some viewers have criticized Maya for promoting an unflattering image of India, but Rathode disagrees. ``I don`t think that is the case,`` he told India-West. ``Our film does not describe the whole population of the country.

``This is a practice which has been banned by the Indian government. It`s not appreciated by anyone in India.

``Nevertheless, it is a practice that still happens.``



Back to Top | NCM Home | Pacific News Service

Dear Anil,

India is the most miserable hell hole for the majority of its citizens, which is Dalits, Shudras, Muslims and Christians. We hope to see some improvement with efforts from enlightened people like you.

Brahminism is an evil ideology, which, like communism and Talibanism/BinLandinism should be removed by force if necessary. It would lead the creation of several smaller, more prosperous states from the current India.

I think Tamil Nadu, AP, Kerala, Karanatka and Goa have no need to suffer under the Brahmin RamRaji politicians of the cow belt and will see true development and prosperity once they become independent states. No wonder that the staunchest Indian nationalists in these states are the Brahmins.

Wishing you success and praying for the quick demise of the evil Brahmin empire.

Ref Glen #: 11

[The reason only 2 % indian are christian b/c you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule .]

I will not let pathetic pea-brained idiots like you twist the truth on a public forum like this. Tell the world proudly that Islam prescribes death as punishment for trying to convert out of Islam and that you will be the first to enforce this religiously-prescribed punishment. Come on; tell the world the truth.

[By the time British reached India through East India co .India already was 37 % muslim.]

Again, you will not be allowed to lie and cheat your way out of historical truths. History records that the apostle St. Thomas arrived in India, converted Indians to Christianity and in fact died in India and is buried in Madras. So, Christianity had a great headstart on Islam and still did not reach more than 2%, even after the British arrived and literally hundreds of missionaries swarmed all over India trying to convert Hindus. The reason is simple: the British government would not allow the missionaries to give people the choice between being beheaded or becoming a convert as opposed to the Muslim sultans.

Jews landed in Kerala in 279 AD. While not engaging actively in conversion, history records that whatever slaves they purchased, they freed and made them into Jews. Thus India has native Jews known as Black Jews and immigrant Jews commonly known as White Jews. But despite the freedom from slavery given by Jews, Hindus did not convert en mass to Judaism.

[As to your contention ludicurous as it is ,if even 5 % of the muslims were FORCED muslims ,there should have been drop in Muslim % AFTER partition B/c IT WOULD BE MORE PROFITABLE FOR THE ERSTWHILE HINDU WHO ACCORDING TO YOU WERE FORCED INTO ISLAM,SHOULD HAVE REVERTED BACK TO HINDUISM ,BUT TO DATE NOT EVEN ONE SUCH CASE IS RECORDED!!]

Again, your pathetic attempt to whitewash the crimes of Islamist thugs will not be allowed to pass unhindered. The mullahs knew fully well that Hindus will revert back and will be accepted back into the fold of Hinduism unless they committed an unpardonable sin. The Hindu scriptures do provide one unpardonable sin; that of eating beef. This sin cannot be washed away by any number of expiation ceremonies. Thus, the first thing forced down the throat of converts after the Kalima was beef.

Just about a decade ago, a very large group of people converted to Islam in a village called Meenakshipuram. A month later, they all renounced Islam. Unfortunately for you, the Sharia is not the law of the land in India now and so they are alive.

[I am sure the wretched condition most of the indian muslims are due to neglect ,]

Neglect, let me tell you, is better than the active hunting down and converting or killing, as practiced by Islamist thugs.

[if they were unreal or grudgingly ,muslim,why would they choose to be persecuted or Atleast accept 2nd level citizenshiop ,when they could easily call them selves Hindu ,]

No, they cannot call themselves Hindu. In the village, they know exactly who you were before you attempted to change your name from Rahim to Ram. Once a Rahim, always a Rahim. You are not the only fcukers to demand exclusive allegiance to your god; we can do it too. We have enough Hindus in India who acted honorably and did not forsake their religion for their personal safety or livelihood in a thousand years and there is no reason to take these cowards back into our fold.

[& neither would they have to keep Roza nor peray 5 times & memorise foreign arabic sura & koran!]

Try not praying 5 times a day in Pakistan or try to eat in public during Ramzan and let us see what happens. The mullah will be right there with a mob ready to stone you to death.

Ref Anilsaari Arora #: 9

[People proud of their own worth, such as yourself - if they forsake their own land, then are they not escaping from the travails that exist in their homeland; instead of trying to solve the problems of their own society?]

This is a society that denied me admission to a professional college based on some arbitrary concept of affirmative action. This is a society that wants me to forget the injustices perpetrated by one community (the Muslims) but wants me to pay for the sins of Hinduism. This is a society where history is written by leftist ``intellectuals`` such as Romila Thapar and others at Jawaharlal Nehru University to suit the government`s need of the day. This is a society which no longer values education, scientific progress or justice because all of that is being sacrificed to the modern-day god of affirmative action. And the beneficiaries of this affirmative action, mind you, are not the poor but the rich middle-level communities that use whatever convenient stick is available to bash the forward communities but block the progress of the backward classes.

Who fights the Dalits in Bihar? Who constitute the Ranbir Sena? Brahmins? Hell, no. It is the Thakurs and other land-owning classes. Why don`t you blame them instead of Hinduism, Hindu scriptures and by extension Brahmins?

[What can such invective serve except to strengthen divisions? Isn`t this a typical politician`s trick, to substitute argument with invectives.]

What invective? Rebut my arguments point by point if you can, instead of mouthing off bullshIt about casteism amongst Hindus. Why don`t you talk about casteism in Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Nepal or Japan?

[Don`t you think that a society/community/religious or philosophic system needs to be self-analytical if it is to eradicate such flaws as may have crept into its practice?]

How much more self-analytical can you get than Tamil Nadu? In the caste-ridden politics of that state, couldn`t those idiots get anyone to succeed MGR except the b@stard daughter of a Brahmin and a Nair woman (Vaikom Narayaniammal Janaki, 4th wife of MGR) or an Iyengar Brahmin (Jayalalitha Jayaram)? After 70 years of Brahmin-bashing, this is the level to which your society has sunk. So, let us not talk about benighted Bihar or Madhya Pradesh. Talk about exactly what the last 50 years of education has produced in Tamil Nadu. These fcukers are so full of contempt for the lower classes, it overflows into their own relationship with any caste higher than them and they feel their inferiority. That is why they couldn`t field anybody excepy VN Janaki or Jayalalitha.

The temples of south India were opened to Harijans at the behest of Brahmins. To this day, those who oppose the entry of Dalits into temples or other public locations are the idiots of the middle layer in society who are afraid they wouldn`t have anybody to lord it over. Go talk to them and wait till they come with their sickles for your head.

[Why do non-resident Indian Hindus such as yourself seem so averse to self-analysis at the collective level? Is it because in an alien environment you need to believe in something absolutely perfect, in order that your sense of identity somehow survives?]

Don`t try your psychoanalysis on me. I am sufficiently secure in my identity not to need anything to serve as a reference point. But there is such a thing as absolute truth and justice which are absolutely perfect and I don`t see anything wrong with believing in that.

Ref 12-head #: 11

[you will NEVER find a muslim converting to Christianity as a rule]

In case you and others such as Urstruly want to distort history, let me point out that proof for death as the punishment for conversion from Islam exists to this day in Islamic societies; we have the case of Dana Mercer and her 7 co-defendants who were arrested in Kabul on charges of spreading Christianity and would have been executed after a show trial but for the US bombing. You cannot lie any more.