Is Jehad Passe’?

sattar2 #142 To summarize: We both agree then that the current state of muslims is one of backwardness and jehalat. The way out of this state, in my view, is through education (broadly speaking to include knowledge, character-building, rational thinking). The way out of this state, in your view, is by following prophets (all prophets, and they continue to be born from time to time, per your view). You think my view is wishful thinking, I think your view will guarantee the continued existence of muslims in the state they find themselves.

Let us agree to disagree then, and best wishes for the new year.

Re Tahmed Sahib (#140):

I maintain that prophets are not mere messengers, but besides delivering the message, they also set shining examples for others to follow.



This is supported by Quran where Prophet Mohammd (pbuh) is called an excellent model for others (Surah-e-Ahzab). In several other places in Quran the Prophet is praised for his various attributes. This is counter to your claim that “Muhammed`s personality is hardly of significance anywhere in the Quran”.

This is also supported by the Quranic requirement of belief in all prophets of God. If only the message is important, Muslims would have been commanded to believe in revealed scriptures only, and not the prophets.

According to Quran, Moses was given the Law of Torah, and later, other prophets were also sent to the Israelites. This indicates that due to the weaknesses in human intellect and lapses in understanding, people go astray, and prophets serve to bring them back to the right path. The later prophets did not give a new law, rather they showed by setting examples the correct interpretation and application of Torah. If such human frailties do not exist, the question remains that why were these prophets needed. This is one of the reasons I argue that prophets will continue to be raised as Muslims go astray, to bring them back to the pristine teachings of Islam.

Reflection on human behavior provides further evidence of the point I am trying to make. A student may have in his possession a book on “Fundamental of Physics”. But to better understand the subject-matter, it would help if he attends lectures. During lectures, the student exercises his own intellect, but the instructor also helps him fully develop his understanding and skills.

One may argue that since he already has the book, the student does not need to go to school. This would be a naïve argument and cannot be applied to a large cross-section of people without serious setbacks in their collective academic performance.

Similarly, people who are high-achievers serve to inspire others in their respective fields. For example, the “Society of Physicists” will try to have a Nobel laureate give a keynote address in the annual convention. One may argue that since the message is all that is important, a similar speech may as well be read-out by an office clerk. Common experience will attest that the speech, if delivered by a clerk, will not have nearly as much of an impact on the audience. What is missing is the decades of study, research, and hard work of the Nobel scholar, which makes his message appealing and his personality a source of inspiration for others.

Moving on ...

You mention that Muslims of the world may get out of their current turmoil by human development, education, and rational thinking. You seem to be taking the easy way out by mentioning these concepts, without explaining how all this will be executed. In other words, why has this not worked thus far? It is easy to give a vague overview of what needs to be done … but it is another matter to articulate and execute a workable strategy for delivering this tall order … especially when all such claims thus far have failed miserably … a fact attested to by the sheer lack of progress in the Muslim world.

Similarly you state that prophethood will be unimportant if Islamic fanatics are transformed into caring, compassionate individuals who can apply logic and reasoning. The only weaknesses in this plan are … details and implementation! If this has not transpired over the past thousand years, how do you imagine this will work now?

You state that “Quran is neither necessary nor sufficient to make muslims a progressive people”, it basically gives some basics about decency and education etc., and does away with superstition, hypocrisy that has passed for Islam for centuries.

It is worth noting that all these superstitions and hypocrisy sneaked into the teachings of mainstream Islam, while Quran existed and was regularly “studied”, “understood”, and “practiced” by the scholars and others! Look at the divisions in the Islamic schools of thought … and you’ll see that Quran has already failed for the past few centuries at reforming Muslims. If Quran could not prevent this corruption from entering the Islamic teachings in the first place, how will the Quran rid the Islamic world of this corruption now?

You have incorrectly stated that I (Sattar) say that education, learning, and thinking rationally are not important. This is wrong. You seem to have derived this incorrectly from your preconceived notions regarding “orthodox” Muslims. While I believe in education, and learning, and rationality, I firmly believe that human endeavors, if not guided by divine law, are bound to lead the followers to path of destruction and turmoil. Potential hazards of nuclear arms race and genetic engineering are but a few such examples.

Quran is essential for the true progress of mankind. While it does not delineate laws of classical physics, it encourages the believer to explore the world around him and to discover principles of science. Quran provides the framework within which, for example, science and technology may be practiced in a manner that is beneficial for the mankind, without posing threats to the survival of the human race. Quran bluntly claims to be the “perfect book” and the “book without any crookedness”. It is the summit of evolution of revealed law, which provides the perfect framework for reforming human thoughts and conduct, all geared towards the benefit of the mankind.

The points you attempted to make regarding no need for messengers, how Muslims may get out of their current state by education, Islamic fanatics turning into caring and rational individuals, and Quran ridding the Islamic world of superstition and hypocrisy … constitute wishful thinking at best. These plans are based upon fantasy, they have not worked for the past thousand-or-so years, and they can no longer be expected to solve the dilemma of the Muslim world.

However, you continue to pin your hopes on such unrealistic ideas. This, I find baffling.

Re nasah (#138):

Sahib, as I pointed out earlier, you may have conflicts with the sheer content of Islamic teachings. That however, does not give you the right to ridicule me for my personal beliefs as a Muslim. We have had intelligent discussions in the past … and this silly attitude of yours needs to go.

Indeed there are problems within the Muslim world. Projecting these problems on all Muslims is not very smart and such generalizations should be avoided in the name of intelligence.



Asad

Re: soysauce

``...Undermine him (Musharraf), not the pak citizens...``

Agreed. But how?

NOTE: This post is a slightly edited version of my next post (see below after this post) which I had sent which is a bit confusing in terms of the way I have cut and paste some quotes from the post I am responding to. So please ignore my next post.

sattar2 #136

You write: ``You oversimplify things when you exclaim that being a decent, caring human being is important, while being concerned with prophethood is not.`` No I do not. If all the Islamic fanatics were transformed into decent, caring, merciful, affecitonate human beings would that be unimportant? If all muslims, fanatics and the silent majority, were to become educated and knowledgable and capable of reaching logical conclusions, would that be unimportant? Whether someone believes that the Quran is the final message from God or that messages come after that, becomes an academic issue once you have a population that is rational and knowledgeable. What I am saying is not what you have been led to believe, but trust your own abilities to think for yourself and then tell me if I am wrong in stressing the central importance of being a good human being.

You write: ``Prophets are men of pristine belief in God, they are divinely guided and protected, and they set shinning examples for their followers.`` Wrong. They are mere messengers. Uneducated people and low intellects think in terms of personalities, and it requires a certain level of intellectual focus to think in terms of ideas. Religion is about ideas and concepts, not personalities. Muhammed`s personality is hardly of significance anywhere in the Quran.

You write: ``Islamic world of today also suffers from rampant sin and moral decay.`` This is a blanket statement that is meaningless.

You write ``Muslims have stopped making headlines in scientific journals.`` Prophets wont teach them science. Muslims will make headlines when they focus on what you say is unimportant - education and learning and most important, thinking rationally.

You write: ``There is no power on earth that can get the Muslims out of their current state of corruption and moral decay. If one disagrees with this, I would like to hear how he thinks reformation of the Muslims will ever come about. ``

Through human development - education, rational thinking.

You write: ``How Quran, a book that mainstream Muslims either no longer understand, or do not care to follow, will make them see the light? How is Quran, a stack of bound, printed papers, alone expected to help people who have gone astray and are neck-deep in a social and spiritual turmoil? ``

The Quran is neither necessary nor sufficient to make muslims a progressive people. It does provide some basic concepts - stress on decency, education etc. - that would clear the confusion caused by centuries of superstition, hypocrisy, and lies that pass for Islam in Pakistan. It can serve to clear that confusion, and put muslims where more progressive people have already reached their own conclusions. The Quran itself is quite modest about itself as well as about the place of muslims relative to other people of the world. It is only muslims who have created their own version of religion that is directly in contradiction to the Quran. Even a person as thoughtful as you thinks that ``mullah issues`` like the finality of the prophet are more important than substantive issues like living a decent, useful life.

You write: ``However, it is worth noting that you felt strongly enough about “finality” to declare my position “wrong” on this issue.`` I said you were factually wrong in your position. That does not mean I feel strongly about this issue which, to repeat myself, is a ``mullah issue`` that is of importance only to those who are confused about what religion is all about.

sattar2 #136

You write: ``You oversimplify things when you exclaim that being a decent, caring human being is important, while being concerned with prophethood is not.`` No I do not. If all the Islamic fanatics were transformed into decent, caring, merciful, affecitonate human beings would that be unimportant? If all muslims, fanatics and the silent majority, were to become educated and knowledgable and capable of reaching logical conclusions, would that be unimportant? Whether someone believes that the Quran is the final message from God or that messages come after that, becomes an academic issue once you have a population that is rational and knowledgeable. What I am saying is not what you have been led to believe, but trust your own abilities to think for yourself and then tell me if I am wrong in stressing the central importance of being a good human being.

You write: ``Prophets are men of pristine belief in God, they are divinely guided and protected, and they set shinning examples for their followers.`` Wrong. They are mere messengers. Uneducated people and low intellects think in terms of personalities, and it requires a certain level of intellectual focus to think in terms of ideas. Religion is about ideas and concepts, not personalities. Muhammed`s personality is hardly of significance anywhere in the Quran.

You write: ``Islamic world of today also suffers from rampant sin and moral decay.`` This is a blanket statement that is meaningless.

You write ``Muslims have stopped making headlines in scientific journals.`` Prophets wont teach them science. Muslims will make headlines when they focus on what you say is unimportant - education and learning and most important, thinking rationally.

You write: ``There is no power on earth that can get the Muslims out of their current state of corruption and moral decay. If one disagrees with this, I would like to hear how he thinks reformation of the Muslims will ever come about. ``

Through human development - education, rational thinking.

You write: ``How Quran, a book that mainstream Muslims either no longer understand, or do not care to follow, will make them see the light? How is Quran, a stack of bound, printed papers, alone expected to help people who have gone astray and are neck-deep in a social and spiritual turmoil? ``

The Quran is neither necessary nor sufficient to make muslims a progressive people. It does provide some basic concepts - stress on decency, education etc. - that would clear the confusion caused by centuries of superstition, hypocrisy, and lies that pass for Islam in Pakistan. It can serve to clear that confusion, and put muslims where more progressive people have already reached their own conclusions. The Quran itself is quite modest about itself as well as about the place of muslims relative to other people of the world. It is only muslims who have created their own version of religion that is directly in contradiction to the Quran. Even a person as thoughtful as you thinks that ``mullah issues`` like the finality of the prophet are more important than substantive issues like living a decent, useful life.

Quran has been there all along … if it has not worked all this time … why would it work now?

You write: ``However, it is worth noting that you felt strongly enough about “finality” to declare my position “wrong” on this issue.`` I said you were factually wrong in your position. That does not mean I feel strongly about this issue which, to repeat myself, is a ``mullah issue`` that is of importance only to those who are confused about what religion is all about.

“”Allah raises prophets according to His divine plans and commands obedience from us.

Allah breathes spiritual life, His spirit in people when He raises a prophet to guide them. Prophets are sent as people go astray from the path of righteousness and when corruption and moral decay sets in. Prophets are men of pristine belief in God, they are divinely guided and protected, and they set shinning examples for their followers. They remove the cover of darkness from the hearts of the people and bring to light the truth and beauty of the message of God. Quran mentions many such prophets … Lot, Hud, Ishmail, Solomon, David, Issac, Shoaib, Jonah, Joseph, Zackariya, John, Jesus … to name a few. Through these prophets God provided humans with much needed guidance and saved mankind from sin and moral decay.”” (Sattar).

There you go Sattar Mian -- in the “Religious Mode” -- sounding just like another one of our board preachers -- Sunni maulana Naqshbandi -- with intellectualism awashed in a pint of Allah’s spirit.

You’re INDEED -- a True Muslim.

Dear Sigalph:

You are 100% right when you write:

``I am ashamed to say that Muslims in minorities (and their patrons in the Middle East and OIC) demand the same rights for themselves that they will NEVER willingly give to minorities in Muslim countries.

The problem is that the world is now waking up to this double standard where mosques can be lavishly built in sight of the White House and St Peter`s BAscillica but a Christian can be beheaded for entering Mecca and Copts have to wait for police permission (for fifteen years sometimes) to fix the bathrooms in their churches.

If Muslims in the predominantly Christian countries were treated like the way Christians are in most Muslim countries, there will a human rights disaster in our hands.````(sigalph)

Isn`t it amazing -- how we can get away with murder!

Specially notorious are those pious Saudi B$st$rds -- in their Islamic piety an fervor they love to build lavish mosques from Madrid to Washington DC -- in everybody elses backyard -- but no Christian or Hindu can have a prayer place in their ``Holy`` Land -- not even a Christian army stationed to save Saudi fatsos derrieres -- can have a church in their compound -- and the amazingly US army complies with that immoral injunction!

In short the Saudi version of that famous saying -- go ahead and DO unto others -- what you DON`T ALLOW -- others -- to do unto you.

And you are right -- the ``others`` are now waking up -- and have started -- ``to do unto us`` -- all over the world – what we have been doing unto them – from Bosnia to Afghanistan..

Re tahmed (#132):

Quran requires us to believe in all prophets of God. This includes belief in prophets raised since the times of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), if that is indeed possible. This “possibility” should be given its due consideration.



You oversimplify things when you exclaim that being a decent, caring human being is important, while being concerned with prophethood is not. Imagine this type of simplification by a “decent, caring” Jew at the time of Issa-ibne-Marriam. This Jew would end up viewing Issa’s prophethood as largely irrelevant. It is only in hindsight that we better appreciate the prophethood of Issa-ibne-Marriam. Clearly being a caring and decent human is important, but a true prophet should be accepted by one since Allah raises prophets according to His divine plans and commands obedience from us.

Allah breathes spiritual life, His spirit in people when He raises a prophet to guide them. Prophets are sent as people go astray from the path of righteousness and when corruption and moral decay sets in. Prophets are men of pristine belief in God, they are divinely guided and protected, and they set shinning examples for their followers. They remove the cover of darkness from the hearts of the people and bring to light the truth and beauty of the message of God. Quran mentions many such prophets … Lot, Hud, Ishmail, Solomon, David, Issac, Shoaib, Jonah, Joseph, Zackariya, John, Jesus … to name a few. Through these prophets God provided humans with much needed guidance and saved mankind from sin and moral decay.

Islamic world of today also suffers from rampant sin and moral decay. It is at one of its lowest points in its 1400 years of history. It has become infested with corruption, dogma, and sectarian differences. Belief in a Glorious and Magnificent God has been replaced by belief in a trickster God whose prophets parted the ocean, raised the dead, flew from one city to another, were taken up to the skies to meet God, controlled jinns, spoke with animals, reside in the sky even after two thousand years of birth, and more. Muslims are trying to please maulvis or pir Sahibs. Islamic traditions of piety and simplicity are replaced by extravagant social customs … stuffing ourselves with food and exploding fireworks, instead of spending time in remembrance of Allah and giving to the needy … whether it is eid, Shabe-Qadar, ramadan, Mohorram, or any other event …

Muslims have stopped making headlines in scientific journals. Most Muslim countries are surviving on foreign aid and are getting ever closer to bankruptcy. Dig this … all our scholars are actually waiting for a two-thousand year old prophet to descend down from the sky, fight the one-eyed monster riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey, convert the world to Islam, and lead the religion of Allah to its final victory.

A handful of Muslims do not subscribe to such absurd ideas, but they are small in number. Ironically they are probably outnumbered by those who claim to be Muslims but in reality are not much interested in Islam anymore. Islam has been split into 70+ sects … each is full of hatred for the other … each is heavily politicized … several are heavily armed. Muslims of the world are not sure of Islamic teachings regarding befriending Jews and Christians, if/how to punish an apostate, what is an “Islamic” state, what should be the rights of minorities in an “Islamic” state, when/where/who to wage jihad against, scope/need of blasphemy laws … heck, they cannot even decide who is a Muslim … and that if they even need to decide who is and who isn’t a Muslim.

When decline has set in this deep, on a scale this large, only a prophet of God can deliver the people from corruption and moral decay. Otherwise Islam will continue to become a fairy-tale religion of dogma and absurd ideologies, divorced from the realities of life, that one can no longer apply to one’s life.

There is no power on earth that can get the Muslims out of their current state of corruption and moral decay. If one disagrees with this, I would like to hear how he thinks reformation of the Muslims will ever come about. How Quran, a book that mainstream Muslims either no longer understand, or do not care to follow, will make them see the light? How is Quran, a stack of bound, printed papers, alone expected to help people who have gone astray and are neck-deep in a social and spiritual turmoil? Quran has been there all along … if it has not worked all this time … why would it work now?

If you do not care about the finality of prophethood or are not interested in spending your time rating prophets (as you stated), then feel free to ignore this post. However, it is worth noting that you felt strongly enough about “finality” to declare my position “wrong” on this issue. I firmly differ, and would state once again that finality of prophethood has no Quranic basis at all. It remains one of the many concepts misunderstood by the mainstream Muslims and can be negated in the light of Quranic verses with relatively simple arguments.

There is a lot more to this issue that needs to be understood … perhaps more than you may have realized thus far. But that’s enough for now …



Asad

Sattar2 #119 #120

Re Fatimah (#109):

In a brief response to your post … yes, both shia and sunni Muslim sects believe that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the final, last prophet. Ahmadi-Muslims disagree with both sects in this interpretation.

Since I follow Quran where Allah has chosen the word “Islam” for my faith, I consider myself a Muslim. Therefore I cannot accept as valid any claims calling me a non-Muslim. Discrimination against Ahmadis, or any other sect, or religion has basis in Islam.

AsadSb.

Assalam Aleikum

Whereas i wanted to dileanate the crux of difference ,I would be telling lie if i meant DISCRIMINATING against you,Ahmedie or any other religion judeaism,zorasthtreianism,christianity ,Hindu ....you name it .

There is lot of maliceous hate being spread against muslims by Hindians mostly by implying that Muslims ENDORSE discrimination against non muslims & other religions.You perhaps can do me a favour to explain from Ahmedie victim point of view that muslims as a majority ,do not have anything against Ahmedie or any non muslims by religion.

re harimau 116

Don`t you know that if Muslims do it it is okay but if others do it, it is persecution and discrimination?

Look around the world. I am ashamed to say that Muslims in minorities (and their patrons in the Middle East and OIC) demand the same rights for themselves that they will NEVER willingly give to minorities in Muslim countries. The problem is that the world is now waking up to this double standard where mosques can be lavishly built in sight of the White House and St Peter`s BAscillica but a Christian can be beheaded for entering Mecca and Copts have to wait for police permission (for fifteen years sometimes) to fix the bathrooms in their churches.

If Muslims in the predominantly Christian countries were treated like the way Christians are in most Muslim countries, there will a human rights disaster in our hands.

sattar2 #119 I think you are complicating the issue by stating your recollection of what we discussed and what you think we agreed or disagreed on. In fact to me issues like the finality of prophethood as what I call ``mullah issues`` (interest issue is another one, and the goal is to make the mullah the power-broker in muslim societies) - they are red herrings that are not important. The important issue is: do you live your life like a decent human being, do you care for your fellow man, do you exercise your intellectual capacity (the reason God created man, per the Quran), do you think for yourself or do you follow other men, and so on. Since mullahs fail in all these respects, they have created issues that are clearly of minor concern in the Quran. So, I dont care whether you are right or wrong in the question of the finality of the prophethood, and I dont care to spend my time rating prophets either. Prophets were mere messengers, and by focussing on them you are not focusing on the substance of religion which to my understanding is as I have stated above.

narain, shammi

BJP has been making a lot of noise, i suppose for domestic consumption more than anything else, and comes across either as bellicose or immature or both.

I would like india to have a plan (frankly i don`t know what it would be not being an expert on these things) and carry that out instead of making a lot of noise. Prove that you mean business. Do not antagonize the pak citizens. They and we have a common enemy - the pak military. Their military`s clout derives from having an enemy in india. Neutralize that clout. Render them defenseless. Attack their navy, their GHQ in response to terrorist attacks. I realize these are easier said than done. IMO india`s gravest mistake was to legitimize mushy`s rule by talking to him. He is our implacable foe. He is the one that has the blood of hundreds of indian soldiers on his hands and he epitomizes everything that`s wrong in indo-pak relations. Undermine him, not the pak citizens.

Instead our approach thus far has been to hit out at ordinary pakistanis.

Sorry i don`t have any pat answers.

Vajpayee MUST meet Mr. Musharraf in Nepal.

And tell him -- face to face -- that the attack on Indian Parliament by Musharraf`s countrymen -- was an unbridled -- ACT OF WAR.

And ask Mushrraf if he understands the GRAVITY of that ACT.

And ask how it could happen -- again -- even after a personal WARNING that was coveyed to Mushrraf -- after the attack on J&K Assembly that -- that kind of ``stuff`` was -- WAY OUT OF LINE.

Vajpayee must ask Mushrraf -- who is in-charge in Pakistan -- Musharraf or that CONVICT Azhar?

Vajpayee must ask Musharraf -- man to man -- one simple question -- do you want A WAR with India, general?

If you want a war -- you WILL have a WAR with India -- if you don’t want A WAR -- then go home and crush your home grown Jihadis -- and show the world the EVIDENCE that you did that -- no TOKENISM

Tell him that the use of Jihadi ``forces`` -- as an instrument of Pakitan`s foreign policy -- to achieve political and regional goals -- is a BANKRUPT idea -- whose time -- that never was --has passed.

To use Lashkariyas and Jaishi -- Jihadi “forces” -- to ``bleed`` Kashmir or ``bleed`` India -- will bring NOTHING BUT WAR and DESTRUCTION for Pakistan -- as it did for AFGHANISTAN.

Ask Musharraf -- if he has drawn proper conclusions -- from post September Afghanistan -- that the country -- or the government -- that HOSTED and EXPORTED Jihadism outside its borders -- was literally torn into bits and pieces by its own extremism -- and by a WORLD’s -- Daisy Cutters -- that would finally have none of it – any longer.

Shouldn`t that be an eye-opener and a LESSON for those in Pakistan -- who dream of such bloody dreams.

And for you Mr. Vajpayee -- for heavens sake -- DON`T stop the SUMJHAUTA TRAINS and the BUS SERVICE between the crying families of India and Pakistan -- for the follies of some demented generals of the Pakistan army.

It`s NOT the fault of the people of India and Pakistan.

WAR is – NOT or NEVER -- was an option for the impoverished masses of India and Pakistan.



hasan

RanaRansher #112 But seriously...(my post below represents the type of attention jerks like you really deserve in my view, but anyway, here is a serious response to your serious questions):

(1) You write: ``The sexually laced dig about houris is aimed at any dim wit who believes that stuff about the Jihadi way to heaven.`` BS. This ridicule is aimed at all muslims. How many muslims on chowk do you see writing sexually-laced stuff about Islam?? You are just a smelly, low-class, muslim-baiting, sob. And a liar...as your whining about ``...dig about houris is aimed at any dim wit``.

You come to chowk with one purpose only: to mock muslims. You are incapable of having an amicable discussion, incapable of any real humor, incapable of behaving like a human being on an anonymous forum like chowk...

I think I have responded enough to your serious questions and wont waste time with your remaining post.

Ranaransher #112 The only thing more pathetic than a dimwit is a crazed dimwit.

Lie down on your back, take a deep breath, and start repeating:

``Ommmmmmm

Ranaransherrrrrrrr

May beeeeee

Moron of the Yearrrrrrrrrr

Ommmmmmmm

But

Ranransherrr is a Proud moronnnn

Ommmmmmmm

And what is tahmed???

tahmed is just a converrrrrrt

a descendant of the sudras

a damn muslimmmmmmmm

a damn pakiiiiiiiiiiii

Ommmmmmmmmmmm

But

Ranaransherrrrrrrrrrrrr is High Caste

A little slow in the cranium but...

A High Caste Chap

Proud Moron of the Yearrrrrrrrrr

Ommmmmmmmmmm Shanti

Ommmmmmmmmmm Shanti``

That should calm you down. If it still doesnt work, try standing on your head every morning and then repeating this mystical verse.

Who knows! You could even become the leader of your own cult one day!!

Dear Fatimah:

Now that`s a strange request from you to Mr. Sattar -- ``If YES ...then you must not `fight` discrimination as being mainstream muslim.``

As if Mr. Sattar -- has moved -- by his own choice -- from mainstream -- to an ``enviable`` position of a persecuted minority.

Mr. Sattar MUST FIGHT discrimination for being unfairly, immorally and forcily pushed -- by the likes of ZABs and ZIAs -- from the ``Muslim Mainstream`` ---- (if there is -- any -- anywhere -- anyway).