Enough is Enough

Dear Shankar

Its good to know that,some one in India has a realization of what will follow.I join you in your views.There is certainly a need to shun radical thinking.I am available for you to interact.

shankar #14: I don`t think this will escalate any furthur. It will go on until the elections in Uttar Pradesh, which I believe are in February. Having said that, I never thought we would see a day when either country deployed complete militaries across international borders.

It is hard to tell what India wants. It wants Pakistan to crack down on militants, and hand over a few of them to India. Yet it is not willing to corner Pakistan in any international arena, or publish any proof of crime. Pakistan has actually put most religious party leaders under house arrest (something the BJP would never do for Pakistan).

What else can Pakistan do? It cannot just start handing over its citizens to India, as and when India wants. Will India return that favor? What if tomorrow India puts my name on the list. Should Pakistan hand me over to India also? This is not only against Pakistani law, it is against Indian law, as well. All India needs to do is present evidence in any neutral international organization. Pakistan will have no choice but to act. It does not have the luxury of sidelining the ICJ like India did in the Naval aircraft case.

The second part is the moving of defence forces. India has launched the most massive force movements in thirty years. What should Pakistan do? It cannot leave its borders open. So it moved its forces to the border also. When India attacked Siachen, Pakistan moved its forces there also. When Pakistan attacked Kargil, India moved its forces there. Once India scales down, Pakistan will move back. But if Pakistan scales down, India has not agreed to scale down (otherwise why did it move its forces there in the first place). I suppose the other option for Pakistan is to not move any forces to the border, and let India walk into Pakistan.

The third case is the Kashmir issue. I think Indians need to accept the fact that Kashmir is separate entity from Pakistan. Pakistan cannot remote control everyone in India. Kashmiris have an indigenous freedom struggle going. That is what happens when countries try to occupy others against their will. It is only natural. Didn`t the Indians want the British to leave? It is beyond the point of no return. Even if they lose Pakistani support, they will just get crushed, but will not give up. According to the Indian Law minister himself on CNN, 61,000 people have died there. Indians need to get out of their state of denial on Kashmir, and at least accept the ground realities, or at least allow human rights organizations to explain it to them.

Pakistan isn`t the cause of every Indian problem, specially Kashmir. Everything cannot be blamed on Pakistan. And every problem is not a mutual problem. Many of India`s problems have been created by India. Why occupy or pressurise others in the first place? Should everyone just bow down to India, as and when it wants?

I have been in touch with my colleagues in Pakistan. They are all deployed on forward locations, ready to retaliate if attacked. They all seem very calm and there seems to be no war hysteria on their side. They don`t have any orders to attack India, and just want to defend Pakistan, from an Indian attack. As long as the Indian military also just wants to protect India from Pakistani attack, and not attack Pakistan, there should be no war.

There is two points I would like to make here:

1) Indians need to start some introspection, and start it soon. India just increased its defence budget by a yearly amount of $5 billion/year. I had earlier suggested this increase was not to counter China, but to threaten Pakistan, even furthur. I have been proven correct. If this money, in addition to the salaries of the soldiers that are there already, was spent yearly on Kashmir, the Kashmiris may have been more than happy to be with India.

2) The BJP is a Hindu Nationalist extremist party. Just look at their manifesto. It openly declares itself to be, ``the most prominent (www.bjp.org) ``member of the RSS. Did the RSS kill Gandhi or did Pakistan?

``The political and ideological forebears of the Bharatiya Janata Party, in power today at the Centre, killed Gandhi.`` (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/52a/067.html)

Had Jinnah been assasinated, it would be beyond my wildest imagination to see such a party every being elected in Pakistan. The BJP is lead by exactly the same time of people that India accuses Pakistan of harboring. Pakistan has now sidelined these groups (they were never in the mainstream to begin with). India is electing them, again and again. Why are Indians following every command of the BJP, if they dislike religous extremists? Are we to belive that even India`s religious extremists are holier than Pakistan`s religious extremists? There is going to be another Ayodhya incidence in a few months. Will that be Pakistan`s fault also?

It is ridiculous for either India or Pakistan to initiate military action against each other. I was very critical of Kargil (even though it was a counter to Siachen). India has been attacking Siachen for 16 years, and now it is threatening all out war on the recognized borders. Why are all the Indians so solidly behind these actions? Why doesn`t the free Indian press not criticize India`s actions in Siachen, while the Pakistanis press has been all over Kargil? If Pakistan was to threaten India with a military offensive of any kind, I would certainly speak out against it. I did it during Kargil. As would a lot of other Pakistanis. I would not call it a mutual problem. I would blame it specificially on Pakistan. Isn`t it about time, the Indians blamed the current military build up specifically on India?

What else can Pakistan do but to move its forces in defensive position, to ensure India doesn`t carry out on its threats, and ask India to provide evidence for its accusations, and ask India to work out the problems jointly in international forums?

India is unwilling to play cricket in Pakistan. It is unwilling to talk to Pakistan. It is unwilling to recognize the ICJ. It is unwilling to allow Pakistanis planes to fly over India. It is unwilling to recognize the UN. It is unwilling to allow any mediators. It is unwilling to provide evidence for crimes it accuses Pakistan of (as a Pakistani, I find the accusation itself quite offensive. The Indian govt. hasn`t released any proof to the Indian populace, yet Indians are happy to believe the govt. This shows how evil Indians consider the Pakistan govt. and Pakistanis to be). Its Hindu extremist govt. is accusing Pakistan of harboring Muslim extremists (that would be like the Sipah-e-Sahaba accusing the Indian Congress of harboring Hindu extremists).

Everything in South Asia is not Pakistan`s fault. A lot of things are India`s faults. Indians need to convince themselve of that. Please listen to Pakistan, and let international organizations like the UN get involved, or you will get us all killed. If, despite all of the above, everything in South Asia is Pakistan`s fault to such an extent, that India can declare nuclear war against Pakistan, then all I can say is I have no answer to India`s complains. It is currently bent upon blowing up Pakistan and getting itself blown up in the process.

Re: Shankar:

``...Just look at the mentality of us desis--we are too insane to STOP a nuclear war...``

Yo Shankar! you are giving too little credit to the strategic genius that is Musharraf, or our own Vajpayee. What you see going on is an orchestrated crisis precipated by Vajpayee when the timing suits him. Of course, the stupidity of the LeT/JeM to have picked this moment in Pakistan`s history is all too discomforting for the General, and played perfectly into Vajpayee`s hands. For details, check out my response #261 to Dost-Mittar on the `Running Naked` by Anwar Iqbal board

Re: Romair to MacGupta and the `61,000 killed in Kashmir` broken record

Check out my response #230 on the `Running Naked` by Anwar Iqbal board

Which country are you talking about; when you say ``we`` & ``us``?! I assume India. The RSS & their political wing BJP have a good ideology?! Their ideology will DESTROY India!; just like the fundos in Pakistan will destroy their country. Are you saying ``our fundos`` are better than their fundos? There is fascism in both countries. But you dont solve that problem with a war--now that both countries are nuclear! Its like trying to eradicate the cancer by killing the patient!!

What the F ``great unified subcontinent`` are you dreaming about?! Sure--- it will be a great big glowing piece of radioactive wasteland, you fool. Go back under the rock you crawled out from--its glowing already...

__________________________________________________

Unlike hypocritical writer like you, when I say ``we`` I mean all the people of subcontinent with whom I share my thousands of years of roots.. I dont want national boundaries and flimsy ``two-nation`` theories to stop me from making those connections to my brothers and sisters of subcontinent. How come none of you shallow ``peaceniks`` talking of peace never talk about ``two-nation`` theory and how to undo the mistakes of past..

If you really get ``F-ing`` problems with ``united subcontinent``, what kind of ``F-ing`` peace are you talking about. Its a shame that when Europe which was inventor of narrow nationalism is moving towards unity, pseudo ``peacenik``s like you find problems with unity.

As for war, ``nuclear weapon`` is always a fake weapon... No one would ever use it.. There are atleast some people in Indian establishment who are now calling this bluff and know that whatever conflict takes place in subcontinent it will never be nuclear. Only ``peaceniks`` like who have special longing for ``fascists``, would rather sacrifice 20 kashmiri pandits a days rather than a war which cleans the subcontinent of all fascist religious elements. Believe me when Pakistan is no longer there, people like RSS, BJP or whoever they are would lose all their agenda whatever they have and that would be the end of it.

Sitting in USA surely you can lecture people about peace.. You are just same as pundits in somnath temple who thought lord shiva would save the temple and they did nothing but pray. Sorry but we know what did that cowardice and ``peace`` lead to. Only stupid cowards like you holed up cosily in USA fear ``nuclear`` onslaught. Sorry but believe me it would still be better than submitting to religious sectarianism, religious fascism. India may have its own internal version of such elements, but they get purged through our democratic process.. But we do need to help our brothers across ``border`` to get them rid of the communal forces and ``jinnah`` mentality for once and all. 1-2 Nuclear holocaust would be small price for a unified secular subcontinent clear of all the fascist elements and cowards and clear of ``americono-philes`` like u

chandan

{{One does need someone to purge the fascism and fanaticism out of this country.. Surely the end of fascism in Pakistan and end of India-hatred would take any agenda out of Indian hindua fascists.. So this war is necessary... Stalemate is already taking too much cost on communal harmony in our country.. We need this final ``manthan``, to finish of our leftover madness of partition.. Then only finally we will have that great unified subcontinent which we all dream of}}

Which country are you talking about; when you say ``we`` & ``us``?! I assume India. The RSS & their political wing BJP have a good ideology?! Their ideology will DESTROY India!; just like the fundos in Pakistan will destroy their country. Are you saying ``our fundos`` are better than their fundos? There is fascism in both countries. But you dont solve that problem with a war--now that both countries are nuclear! Its like trying to eradicate the cancer by killing the patient!!

What the F ``great unified subcontinent`` are you dreaming about?! Sure--- it will be a great big glowing piece of radioactive wasteland, you fool. Go back under the rock you crawled out from--its glowing already...

Romair :

I am under no illusion that a successful resolution of the current crisis will settle the Kashmir issue.

The current crisis is about the export of jihad from Pakistan. The matter of fact is that an enormous number of journalists and reporters have now visited Afghanistan and Pakistan in the last three months, and now they understand what is going on. This is not a matter of Indian propaganda, or poor PR on the part of Pakistan, or a Yindoo-Yehudi-Yankee conspiracy, though you are free to bury your head in the sand and believe so. Hitchens, de Borchgrave and Ahmed were conveniently available to quote, but look around and see the barrage of articles. Moreover, the articles tend to make liars of Rumsfeld, Powell, Bush, Blair, etc., so they are not sponsored by the governments.

There are articles about what is found in Pakistani textbooks; about what is taught in madrassas; about how Taliban still find refuge in Pakistan getting in with army connivance, even though the borders are supposedly patrolled, and so on. Not random allegations, but eye-witness accounts, interviews, etc. There are any number of articles on the thinness of support for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and how Pakistani money and military support was necessary to prop up the Taliban.

It is not about ``Pakistan is evil, India is good``. The issue is that Pakistan harbors a core of fundamentalists that has hijacked the state and state policy, and that presents a threat to everyone. Presumably, when it is eradicated, its thinness of support will also be apparent.

I broke my own rule - I think all this people-people contact keeps Pakistanis from seeing the truth, and I advocate a boycott. So I will not argue further. I leave you with this from Barry Bearak in the NYT; he just visited the ``lawless`` tribal areas, where supposedly the writ of Islamabad does not run.

``While it is usually presumed that the tribal Pashtuns prefer that separation - and even pugnaciously demand it - the opposite may well be true. For certain powerful Pakistanis, it is good to have a territory uncontaminated by legal statutes. Smugglers, drug barons and arms dealers thrive under such latitude. Anarchy serves its purposes.``

``But most people in Tirah would like the benefits of hospitals, factories and utilities``.

-Arun Gupta

I disagree with your belief that reacting

forcefully to terror ``makes no difference``.

India is dealing with a country a large

part of whose elite firmly believes in the

use of terror and civilian killings in

achieving their goals. The Indian goverment

has done exactly the right thing by asserting

themselves forcefully and clearly. What

should they have done --- waited for the Indian

parliament to be blown up first?

To help you erase your innocence or naivete

I suggest you read this gem from the Pakistani

press:

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2001-daily/31-12-2001/oped/o3.htm

I particularly enjoyed the paragraph reading:

``The freedom fighters would be well advised to avoid any collateral damage to uninvolved civilians or any attack against innocent members of the minority communities.``

In other words, now that the world is watching us,

our ``freedom fighters`` should stop ethnic cleansing. Once the spotlight is off, they

can go and kill more minorities.

Keep in mind this writer is a ``respectable figure``

in Pakistan. It is this aspect of Pakistani

culture that has made the world come to understand

the debased nature of their politics and culture.

Do you seriously believe we can ``negotiate`` with

these folks without making clear that we are

willing to go to war?

shammi,

{{Shankar, is it also pointless to abjure violence?}}

This no ``ordinary`` violence--we are talking about Goddamned nuclear war. When sane people talk about ``limited`` war in a ``hot pursuit``; its INSANE! Just look at the mentality of us desis--we are too insane to STOP a nuclear war. It takes but 5 mins for a missile to hit a major city. There are NO safeguards, no checks & balances, no agreed upon system to stop a `` military chain reaction``, once it starts. Every ``expert`` says that India & Pakistan will ``use `em; rather than lose `em``.

Youre goddamned right I ABJURE it!

I dont give a damn if Kashmir is independant, or if it goes to Pakistan. Not if the alternative is the death of millions. A nuclear war in the subcontinent will kill more human beings than every single war in the 20th century. NOTHING, but NOTHING is worth this nightmare!

What baffles the heck out of me is that right now Indians are crazy enough to say ``we dont care!``

Are you praying for a miracle? I am! Not a stop gap ``miracle``--that will buy a billion+ people a few more months or years. A real miracle--the ONLY thing I can think of is make IOK ,POK & Akshai Chin (or whatever the heck they call it) an independant nation with a permanent UN peacekeeping force. NEITHER India or Pakistan or China should claim any rights on it (heck none of us deserve it).

Now do we have the COURAGE to do that? I think not--we will just jump up & down & claim ``MY DICK IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!`` Serves us right! I just wish my family & friends get out of that shitpot before its too late.

Romair,

#7

Sigh...are you listening to what you are saying?! I hope you are, `cause Indian ears have gone deaf. You are still trying to reason with people who are so angry, that they WONT listen. Not today, not tommorrow, they wont listen even if they are falling into the abyss. They will go to their vaporised graves saying ``it was the other guy`s fault``. It DOESNT matter if you think they are wrong or they will eventually lose.

Inshallah, if this crisis subsides, BOTH sides will declare ``moral victory``. Both sides will spin this by quoting foreigners who side with their respective views. Then they will accuse those ``experts`` of the other side of either being discredited or biased or a part of a larger conspiracy.

We will have lively debates on Chowk, in the media, in international diplomatic forums & neither side will budge an inch. This will go on & on until the next crisis erupts. Sooner or later there will be nuclear war in the subcontinent. Everybody knows that. Those who say it wont happen are deluding themselves.

Yeah yeah, the Pakistan military is brave, well trained, well equipped & has ``world famous`` commandos & airmen. They are not the rag-tag Taliban. Even India--esp India--knows that. Otherwise those banias would have attacked YESTERDAY.. So what are you trying to prove? All this means DIDLEY SQUAT. You soldier boys--current & ex-- are playing wargames & the end result is the same--nuclear war! Believe me, the Indian Generals, rusty & ill equipped as they are , also know that. The BJP knows that too. The BJP, IMO are mofos; but they arent stupid.

Since you Pakistanis are so mature & introspective an` all--introspect this: Indians are CRAZY enough to risk nuclear annihilation & world condemnation than give an inch of Kashmir. Now you guys can shout from the rooftops about how evil & hypocritical we are. The dominant discourse among Indians is ``F what Pakistanis think of us; for that matter F what the rest of the world thinks of us; we are going to keep Kashmir even if it destroys us!``.

Now shake your head & go ``tsk..tsk..ya Allah, what have we done to deserve such evil neighbors?!`` The Indian response would be ``we`d rather spend an eternity burning in hell than spend a second in the jannah with assholes like you!--so go F yourself!``

So please, Umairr, since you guys are the only mature, sane, introspective ones left in the subcontinent, at least consider this. The ``freedom fight`` of a 1000 cuts has`nt bled India. It has oozed TESTESTERONE & made them totally INSANE. There is NOT ONE Indian (on Chowk or in the ``real`` world) who is saying ``gee; maybe we should reconsider our Kashmir policy!``. There is not ONE protest in India about making the GOI give up Kashmir. The insane ``silent majority`` of India is shouting ``fry the Paki mofos--doesnt matter if we get fried ourselves!``

OTOH, sane, mature, introspective Pakistani commentators (that YOU respect, BTW) are saying:

1)gee--maybe OUR Kashmir policy is getting diminishing returns & maybe it will destroy US before we liberate Kashmir.

2) We have sacrificed our economy, our lives & our future to support, feed & free the Afghans. How come they hate us so? Goddamned INGRATES!! Who knows?!, maybe the Kashmiris in IOK will do the same thing! Ah! but at least they will hate the Indians more, like the Afghans hate the Russians more--BIG WHOOP!

3) Not a SINGLE country , not even our brother muslim countries, not even China is pressuring India to give up Kashmir. Today, when we need them the most, they are telling BOTH of us ``Please stop this madness!``. Gee, I wonder why they arent singling out India?!--after all the Indians are INSANE, we are introspective.

So please, my sane, introspective, mature brother of mine--could you at least consider this?! Maybe THATS the miracle we need!

Ref AAmir #: 12

[A piece of SANITY ,dispensed equally to fanatic lunatics like Harami..Ou .Sux Sena,Jay & Avr etc. on one side & Ali ,Ylh,etcon the Pakistan side]

Yo, pathetic idiot, can you point out where I have called for war between India and Pakistan?

[who have `my penis is bigger than yours complex`]

On our part, it is `our foreskins are intact` complex. Just being factual here.

[ever noticed why the missiles are shaped so Lol he he]

That is because the missiles will take less than 2 minutes to reach their targets... just as long as your shlong lasts.

[Lets give PEACE a chance at ALL cost .Even at the cost of territory .It aint worth it .]

Good to see a slightly sane Pakistani who wants his temptresses right here on earth.

Macgupta #6: You seem as sure of Pakistan`s evilness as you are of India`s virtue. You could be right. But if you are so sure, why not take all this information you have to the UN and the International Court of Justice? If you don`t have an answer for that, then perhaps the Indian stance isn`t as virtuous as you make it out to be.

You have quoted a lot of international correspondents. That is good. However, you need to take a look at the ones who point out hte mistakes by India, also. Primarily the ones from Amnesty International. And if you do belive in the international correspondents, then don`t you think India needs to lift the ban against them in IOK. If not, then why quote them.

Christopher Hutchins believes Lady Diana and Mother Teresa were crooks also. He has repeatedly stated that on TV. He thinks Henry Kissinger is a war criminal. He is a supporter of the Palestinian cause. Quite a controversial figure, to say the least. However, I believe he does strongly support the creation of the International Criminal Court. And that is where he would think the claims against Pakistan should be decided. I agree with him on that part.

As long as India continues to play judge, jury and executioner, nothing is going to change in South Asia. Either you need to realize you are in the wrong, or you need to get international organizations involved, and expose Pakistan.

The current war hysteria is going to backfire against India. If it starts a war, then both India and Pakistan can theoretically get destroyed, and the blame will go on India. If it doesn`t start a war, then it will have created all this fuss for nothing, and will not be able to create it again. Threatening all out war is like threatening to quit from a company. It is a one time deal.

What worries me the most is the brainwashing that seems to have engulfed Indians: Pakistan is the criminal, even if India has no proof. Pakistan is evil, even if it is India is unwilling to get the UN involved. India can run over Pakistan in a war (as stated by Georger Fernandes). Pakistan is being run by religious extremists, even though India is the country that is being run by BJP. Pakistan should accept whatever India says, however India should never believe what Pakistan states. The Indian law minister went so far as to say that it is Pakistan that has killed 61,000 Kashmiri civlians in India. I wouldn`t be surprised if most Indians believe him. This shows how out of touch the Indian mindset has become from reality. Logic seems to have gone out the door.

For the past two years, there has been a lot of introspection going on in Pakistan. It is evident here on Chowk. Pakistanis are slowly attempting to separate the goods of their society from the bads. Action has been taken against the beaurecracy, military, businesses, politicians, and now the religious right. Not due to threat from India, but due to self-evaluation. The top corrupt political leaders are in exile, and their deputies are now slowly making a place for themselves and are commenting quite maturely on Pakistani affairs. You will not hear a single Pakistani leader of politician stating that Pakistan should counter India`s threats with furthur threats. I can point to ten Indian leades who are threatening war. Can you point to one Pakistani leader who is threatening war?

Not counting its basketcase economy (much worse than Pakistan`s uptil the 90s), India had developed an intellectual standard that was more mature and realistic than Pakistan`s, uptil the 90s. It had been able to keep its religious extremists completely at bay. However, now India is going in the other direction. There seems to be no introspection, anymore. The extremist BJP is getting elected again and again. While the Pakistani intellectuals are calling for a control of parties like JUI and JI, and of the banning of parties like TNFJ And SSP (Musharraf did not even invite JUI and JI to discuss how to handle the current situation), Indian seem to be illogically following everything the BJP says. How can they not realize that one cannot unilaterally declare some other country a criminal and threaten war? While corrupt Pakistanis like BB, NS and Altaf Hussain are wanted by the law, corrupt people like Fernandes are back as Defence Ministers.

In three months, the BJP is going to build a temple on the Babri Mosque site. Vajpayee has called this, ``issue a matter of national sentiment`` (tehelka.com). If the previous Babri mosque incidents is a criteria to go by, this will result in furthur Hindu-Muslim conflicts, with many deaths. Will those be unilaterally blamed on Pakistan also? This combined with the current war hysteria against Pakistan is going to make South Asia more volatile than before. What happens then? What if along with this, the BJP loses in Uttar Pradesh?

The Indians would be well advised to stop worrying about the religious parties in Pakistan. They will not get elected, and their leades are in house arrest. Indians should be more worried about the direction their own country is going. And if they really believe they are in the right, they should have absolutely no fear of getting international organizations involved in these conflicts. If the UN and ICJ and AI declare Pakistan to be criminal, Pakistanis should accept the verdict wholeheartedly and take action. However, Pakistan should never negotiate on Indian terms, just because India threatens it with war. Pakistan should not attack the Indian forces, however if India attacks, Pakistan should defend its borders wholeheartedly and defensively, and immediately get the UN involved.

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War of 1971 - My Childhood Memoir

On that September evening of 1965 when jet planes roared overhead declaring the start of war, my mother along with the rest of the family was rushing towards a safer place, my nana’s (grandfather’s) home, 25 miles away. She was carrying all her valuables with her and I was also present in that family caravan - a few months old fetus in my mothers womb. So everything I have heard about the war of 1965 is hearsay but the war of 1971 left many images in my mind that never want to leave to this day. When I hear the military build up across the border between India and Pakistan, all of a sudden I feel like I am a 5 year old boy in December of 1971 and all those images play in my mind. I think about all those numerous 4 and 5 year old children who might be going through the emotions and imagery that I went through 30 years ago.

Punjab de jammeyan nu nitt mohinma - is an accepted truth of life by my elders. When Sir Radcliff sat down to draw the border of Pakistan and India between Lahore and Amritsar in late summer of 1947, my village - Naushehra Dhalla - became an injured casualty of his pen. It became part of India but its sister village - Bhadhaana (Padhaana) about 1 mile on the other side became part of Pakistan. That divided many friendships, relations and end of an era of my family history in that region. My father lost his High School in Bhadaana where he had just started as a 7th grade student that year. With that school he lost many of his friends, teachers, dukaan walas, he used to buy his lunch of chhollays and amroods from, and long walks in the streets of Bhadhaana that he never got the chance to see again although he spent rest of his life only 20 minute walk from it. Accepting all that and much more in the future has become a habit for us. One of those habits is dealing with the war between the 2 countries. I have experienced only one these wars, the war of 1971 on the Western front.

When the war became imminent in early winter of 1971 most of the villagers sent their children and other portable belongings to safer places. I along with my 2 sisters were sent to my grandfather (nana’s) home sometime in November while my dada ji, my parents and uncle and aunt stayed back. Every few days someone will come back from our home and give us the news about what is going on back home. I was not much interested in that probably because I hardly had any idea of India, Pakistan and war. I was happy being at my Naanke’s home and playing with my cousins. Then one day my dad brought the news that they have built a morcha in the front yard of our haveli. Although our village was close to the border, our land was on the Indian side of the village about 2 miles away from the border and we had just moved to the Haveli being built in the farm. Dad told that with the help of some army men they had built a very strong morcha (bunker) where about 15 to 20 people can sleep during the war. This idea got me interested and made me feel home sick for the first time in 3 weeks. I wanted to see our home and particularly see how our morcha looks like. Dad told me the location of the morcha in the haveli and I was using all my imagination to see how it looks like. Before that I had heard about fauji morchas being built around our area but having our own morcha in our haveli was fascinating. I wanted to go back and see my home and meet my dada ji whom I had not seen for weeks.

Hardly a few days passed that war started. Fighter planes started roaring during the night even over my nana’s home which was considered safe. My uncles had tinted all glass windows in the house with newspapers so that light does not pass through. When I asked why we have to close the glass windows my uncle told me - so that planes don’t see our house and bomb it. That scared the hell out of me. I started thinking our morcha back home might be safer than this place and I was kind of upset with my uncle’s aerial defense system of turning off the lights at night. I liked our morcha better. I remembered, dad had told us that fauji jawaans who built it said that this morcha won’t collapse even if a Pakistani plane crashes into it. Now I know it was all shoshaybaazi, but back then Fauji’s words were very assuring. We spent all night staring at the plane lights and flares of bombs dropping here and there in the far horizon towards the border. Next morning my dad and uncle also came from home. They were trapped in the morcha all through the first night of war but with the first ray of sunlight they left home towards where we were. My dada ji insisted on staying in the morcha. He had couple of cows for milk, plenty of chickens that we had at the farm and lot of rice and aaTa. He said he knows how to boil rice and fry a chicken. He insisted that with the stuff he had he can last 6 months of war - above all he did not want to leave his home in the safety of strangers. It was a matter of honor for him. He was not alone. Many other elders from the neighboring farms who were staying behind teamed up with him. They would cook their food during the day, water the wheat fields, milk the cows and as soon as golabaari started in the evening they will duck inside the morcha and listen to news on radio.

Next 12 days of war became a routine after couple of days. I don’t remember much about it other than watching golabaari every evening and after some time getting bored and falling asleep. Home sickness and excitement to see the morcha increased every day. After few days my parents and uncles were worried too about dada ji’s health. A week or so later someone went there and brought the news that Indian army has crossed over to Pakistani territory and our village is safe. Then before the last day of war the word came that war is ending. That afternoon my parents could not stop their eagerness to go back home. They planned with my uncle to go back and stay there as war seem to have ended. When they were ready to leave I insisted to go with them. I started crying and kicking my legs (my trade mark) creating a scene to blackmail them to take me with them. All through the journey mostly we saw army vehicles, checkpoints, army camps, etc. although civilians had gotten the courage to get their necks out at the rumor that war has ended. We reached our home couple of hours before sunset. I was so happy to see dada ji and morcha. I was going inside the morcha every few minutes and checking its strength by jumping over its roof. The morcha was really big like a room with only one small opening coming out next to one of the walls of haveli. I guess the idea was that wall was shielding any bomb shrapnel from going inside the morcha. Many other people in the neighborhood came to our place. Women cooked food and made roTis which dada ji and friends had not eaten for 2 weeks. They were complaining that they were living on rice, eggs, chicken and milk only like they were malnutritioned or something. Everyone has his own stories and mood was very festive. Finally the war was over and our homes and village was safe.

The festivities were very short lived. As the sun went down firing started again. Planes and bombs going all over the place. The cease fire was some kind of rumor that everyone believed to come home. About 25 men and women ducked inside the morcha. We had hay laid on the floor of morcha and bed sheets nailed on the sides. It was basically a big round hole in the front yard which was covered first with lot of heavy wood, mostly from the trees freshly cut, many layers of it and then covered with lot of dirt. Considering the bomb technology we had in 1971, this was probably not a bad morcha although nothing to brag about after seeing the caves of Tora Bora. I was the only child in that morcha. All night noise of planes, artillery bombs and firing went on. Dad was switching the radio back and forth between Jalandhar, Lahore and BBC. Every word was being heard by the elders in the morcha very carefully. Once in a while someone will ask for clarification. Every few minutes bomb noise will be so heavy that after it calms down one of the males will get out of the morcha and look over the wall and make a guess about the place where it might have hit. “eh te lagda ay bagh wich army de camp te digga ay gola”(looks like this one fell on army camp in the orchards) someone announced. When no cannon fired from the camp for few minutes everyone thought may be army camp about half mile away is really hit. But then noise of artillery blasting off bombs from near the camp was heard proving them wrong.

In the middle of night amid a calm of about half hour when everyone was relaxed the biggest explosion came. It sounded so loud and close that it shook the morcha, some dirt pouring down through the woods fel on our clothes. It was certainly a close call, it dropped only few fields away from our home. My uncle got out of the morcha to look over the wall to see what has happened. As he got his head over the wall another loud one few fields away shook us again. He ducked back to the morcha quickly while everyone was shouting his name. At this moment many started doubting their own wisdom to come back to the war zone. Someone mentioned my name. I was listening everything ducked inside the rajai(bedding) very quiet and almost pretending like I am sleeping. When everyone was talking loudly someone said “shhshhhhhh rolla na pao munda jaag jayega” (don`t talk loudly, boy will wake up). Next morning when it was over everyone thought I was sleeping all through the night. I told them I knew everything. I told them I was not sleeping but they said but you looked like sleeping. “Do you remember when the big bomb hit?” someone asked. I said in my trembling voice “haan mainu pata jadon tusi kehnday si rolla na pao munda jaag joo’ga”(yes I know when you guys were talking about me that I might wake up). Hearing that everyone cracked in laughter at my innocent remark. That was the last day of war. It ended for us and everyone was happy. To this day everyone who was in the morcha that night reminds me it whenever we meet.

Within few days everyone came back to the village. Village is sandwiched between the border line and the defense canal built by India. One has to cross the bridge over the defense canal to go to the village. The bridge was broken and a narrow one was used by army. Many people whose land was on Indian side of the defense canal moved to their farms. Only few months ago ours was the only haveli in the farms but now half of the village started building theirs. It was convenient to be close to the farm where men worked all day. Exploded bomb shells were all over the place in our fields. Many of us kids will go to the fields and collect the metal pieces in spite of our parents restraining us from doing so in case one of them blows up. We would sell this scrap metal to the chhabriwala (bicycle hawker) and buy pateesa (a mithai) from him. Some of these pieces were really heavy and amount of pateesa we would get was good enough to make up for the war damage to our childhood. The army was cleaning up the area and although war was over they were there to stay for a while. They built some checkpoints on the roads, cleaned our school, and had a big open door projection screen set up near their main camp about a mile from our home. There they showed movies to the army men and civilians for free. That was also my first introduciton to cinema and movies.

Looking at the way many other wars in history have turned out to be, our wars of 1965 and 1971 on the Western front were nicer ones. Very few civilians died and damage to property was also minimum. In the whole incident only one girl from our village lost one of her finger hit by a flying shrapnel from a bomb blast near by. Wars are not always like that particularly in the modern days of heavy explosives and fast technology. May God bless our leaders` conscience. May saner thoughts prevail and no children of my land have to see another war. Let us use free time of our armies to build schools, roads and bridges for the 5 year olds to look forward to something.

- Jagjit Sandhu

After the great flood, god promised never to visit man with such a deluge again. But he did promise ``the fire next time``.

Happy New Year.

IT seems the writer in his zeal to sound balanced does not recognize on all this war is going to be between people of India and fascist military setup of Pakistan. This war if won by India would be in the end beneficial for whole region. This would undo and purge the divisive forces.. This would herald the end of communalism anywhere in the subcontinent... Sorry this war is nencessary. One does need someone to purge the fascism and fanaticism out of this country.. Surely the end of fascism in Pakistan and end of India-hatred would take any agenda out of Indian hindua fascists.. So this war is necessary... Stalemate is already taking too much cost on communal harmony in our country.. We need this final ``manthan``, to finish of our leftover madness of partition.. Then only finally we will have that great unified subcontinent which we all dream of

Shankarji :

Inshaallah, the stalemate is about to be broken. The ISI-jihadis in Pakistan is about to receive serious setbacks. This will benefit Pakistan as much as it benefits India.

Arnaud de Borchegrave, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in the Washington Times, that the Lashkar and the Al-Qaeda are interchangeable.

Khaled Ahmed, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in the Friday Times that Talibanism is not native to Afghanistan and is an ISI export.

This is not about ``somebody`s fault``. This is about the excision of a cancer. Christopher Hitchens, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in Vanity Fair, about this cancer : ``And I wish that those in the West who harbor softhearted illusions about Muslim grievances could see and hear General [Hamid] Gul (rhymes with ``ghoul``). He is not an oppressed peasant. He is Pakistans Pinochet: a militaristic and privileged thug, fattened for many years on American subsidies.``

It is STRATFOR analysts, and not Indian propagandists, who wrote ``With al Qaeda and Taliban elements fleeing Afghanistan, the United States will continue to grapple with strategic problems concerning its traditional ally, Pakistan. There are significant differences between what President Pervez Musharraf has said he will do to fight terrorism, what he intends to do and what he actually can accomplish. The threat of an imminent Indo-Pakistani war may be just the lever Washington needs to move Islamabad.``

Also this is a RAND assessment :

Regardless of the psychological gratification that might accrue to a strategy of “giving Pakistan a bloody nose,” New Delhi will continue to exhibit substantial restraint—despite an occasional lapse precisely because it seeks to secure geopolitical goals much larger than simply humiliating Islamabad.

We can hope that we do not lapse this time.

-Arun Gupta

[Some of us, like Noah`s family, will be saved from this Armageddon, safely ensconsed in the West.]

Scientists believe that cockroaches will survive nuclear wars and perpetuate their species.

So YOU don`t have to hide in the West to survive a nuclear holocaust.

``...I think its pointless to debate ``who`s at FAULT``...``

Shankar, is it also pointless to abjure violence?

what the $#@! are you babbling about shrinker?

Thank you, Shankar. Effectively disconcerting, especially the closing paragraph.

Do you think we will be able to live with the guilt of having survived this massacre of innocents, on both sides of the line. How many people have to be mercilessly slaughtered before it is enough? I read somewhere that peace is merely the silence between wars. Living as we are now, I am tempted to agree with that.

May God help us all, for only He can protect us from the horror that threatens to consume.

Aamir

Shankar Sahib, you are absolutely right.

``Enough is Enough``


HELP TO STOP WAR IN SOUTH ASIA

All who value peace and human life need to intervene and stop war in South Asia. India and Pakistan are poised to engage in such a misadventure as their respective troops and missiles (possibly nuclear) face each other on their border and on the Line of Control in Kashmir. This is happening while we in the United States are busy watching the news from neighboring Afghanistan.

People of Indian and Pakistani origin especially need to wake up to the reality of what kind of misery this conflict will produce. Our armchair warmongers of South Asian origin who now make their homes outside the region, in Europe, Canada and here in the United States need to get a large dose of reality.

Some Pakistanis are arranging a peace march at a Northern California venue (exact date and place to be decided) this week and urge all from the South Asian (aka “Desi”) Diaspora and their friends to protest against the possibility of war between India and Pakistan. I hope that Americans will join us and show solidarity with the pursuit of sanity in the region. Let us have a happy, peaceful and prosperous new year in a part of the world where the misery of poverty already rules the streets. Help us stop this looming war.

Exactly how many innocent Kashmiri Muslim civilians have the Indian occupationist forces killed in the past 12 years? Used to be 30,000 then 50,000; stabilised at 70K for a while... now Urstruly has raised the bid to 80,000 (post#96).

Would be nice to have a head-to-head comparison of the civilians killed and women raped by Indian occupationist forces on the one hand and the god-fearing freedom-fighting jehadis on the other. Bids invited.

SM

Shankar wrote:

Sigh...I guess you are relatively new to Chowk. This business about what people think of me--I`ve explained several times in the past; so its getting BORING. But I guess I have to do it time & again--because ALAS; extremist Indian sh *theads like you pop your ugly heads over & over again on Chowk. I thought that maybe if I just smirk & ignore mofos like you, you will disappear--but no; you post over & over again about how much you hate me--like an annoying mosquito, buzzing in my ear.

## Yeah well... at least I got your attention.... had to upset poor anNy in the process, but it got your tongue wagging dinnit? (and no, I`m not new to Chowk, just newly found my voice)

Besides; now you`ve gone & pissed off anNY & then have the balls to talk to her in a patronising, condescending manner. BIG MISTAKE pal. I pity you now:) Chowk vetrans have learnt this the hard way--NEVER EVER get these Pakistani shernis mad at you! They`ll eat you for lunch! They are more khatarnak than their ``world famous`` military!

## Bah! I won`t even bother dignifying that. Suffice to say, if you`re scared of a Paki, that too a woman Paki (with all their rights) you got problems buddy.

I used anNy as a bait, to get you to reply. Read my post to her again, her opinion means nothing to me. How on earth can a foreigner comment on Indian notions of patriotism?

OK, seriously, (sigh.. this sounds like a frikking broken record).. I feel VERY VERY good when a guy like you loses respect for me. In fact, I`m happy you`ve now lost respect for me COMPLETELY; rather than just a little bit. It proves to me that I`m on the right track when extremists (esp Indian extremists) hate what I say. As far as I`m concerned, guys like you are much more dangerous for India than any of those Paki fundos.

## You wouldn`t be feeling so smug and self-righteous if you really knew who I was or what I stand for. People like you (excuse MY broken record) think they are superior to the rest of their pathetic compatirots because they have the vision to look beyond national barriers and see the BIG picture. Which means knocking your own country because after all ``right is right and wrong is wrong``. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. Get that into your skull (and maybe ease up on the mofos and dickheads for a while, it`s getting tiresome.)

The problem arises when there is a conflict - not between right and wrong - but between two rights. When the chips are down, I owe my own nation and its Government a lot more than I do General Mushy and Pakistan. So that`s where I will put my money (and my heart).

Hey, I got no problem if Indians are angry at Pakistani jehadis for the attack on the parliament or the low intensity war they are conducting in Kashmir. I am too. I also feel that the GoP is responsible (directly or indirectly) for this crap. Personally, I dont feel Mushy knew about this attack. I dont care much for his anti-indian stance--but he`s not an idiot. He`s probably the most astute Pakistani leader that they have produced--in my lifetime, at least.

## Just because he is astute, doesn`t necessarily mean he is good from India`s point of view. Just remember nations have INTERESTS not friends, and it will make your thinking a lot clearer. If you think I have no Pakistani friends you are seriously mistaken. But in a time of conflict, I will support my own governement to the hilt. trust me: you won`t find me organising protest marches demanding to know how many kids Vajapyeejee has killed today. Which does not again mean I will take any sh1t from the Government, just as I refuse to take any from you or your bunch or pacifist cohorts.

But that does`nt mean India is this innocent victim of terror & her hands are clean. In that respect, I COMPLETELY agree with Romair--right is right & wrong is wrong. What India has done in Kashmir is something I`m ashamed of--Pakistan or no Pakistan. Just because GoP is wrong, does`nt automatically mean that the GoI is RIGHT! What we disagree, probably, is the WAY each country is going about correcting those wrongs.

## What India has done in Kashmir has been what we have done in every other area: ignore the problem, refuse to acknowledge it exists till one day it becomes so big it threatens to swallow you whole. Forget pre-1989, that was one sordid saga of greed and opportunism by everyone involved (Raja Harisingh, the Abdullahs, the Congress). But after 1989, ever since the freedom struggle went militant what HAS the Indian governemnt done? Sent in the Army to protect its sovereign territory? What have the Pakis done: sent in Afghans, Chechens, Saudis and Sudanese who have fukkall to do with the problem , with guns and bombs and a promise of 72 virgins in the afterlife to kill people irrespective of religious background in the most cowardly ways possible? You make the choice Shankar, mine is made.

That, I feel is the MAIN reason why the rest of the world is assiduously neutral. I think both moderate Indians & Pakistanis agree that India & Pakistan are 2 fleas fighting for the same dog.

## The reason the world is assidiously neutral is because that idiot Pandit Nehru took it to a platform it didn`t belong in: the UN. And because Pakistan has been a faithful lackey of the US since the 50s. Now that the cold war is over, America suddenly realises that it has a lot more to lose by pissing off India, a secular, progressive democracy (and never mind those posts ranting about us being babykilling barbarians) than a country so confused it doesn`t even remember if it was meant to be Islamic or democratic or both and has turned to an opportunistic ambitious armyman for guidance, who they will soon realise does little more than blow hot air when cool thinking is the order of the day.

What I cant STAND about extremists like you & chandan is that your testesterone has corroded your brain cells. You want to settle this, once & for all, in a war. If I misunderstand you, I apologise, in advance.

##You do misunderstand, and your apology is completely unnecessary. You have every right to speak your mind, as I do, and this is one of the beautiful things about living in this country. I can even condone the unforgiving manner in which our Oppopsition mauls the Govt over the coals at the slightest opportunity, because frankly that`s their job, and screw the ulterior motives. So peace brother, I hear you. I may not agree with you, sure, but I respect your right to an opinion just as I respect my own.

Just use whats left in your brain cells for a minute. Romair may disagree with me, but its true India has not lost a conventional war with Pakistan. But their military isnt a pushover. Even in a conventional war, India wont be able to just walk into Pakistan. I`m sure even someone as stupid as you will agree that the Indo-Pak military disparity isnt as great as the US & her allies faced in the Gulf war. Pakistan will give us as good as they can get. Besides an attacking military is always at a disadvantage & generally takes a lot more casualties.

## Agreed. We`ve all read Catch 22 here. No need to go over all that again. But there comes a point when going to war is the only logical choice. I have a feeling that time is now. World opinion is firmly for India and anti-Pakistan. Nobody believes General Mushy. It`s Pakistan who`s attcking our legislative houses and bombing our civilians. Even public sentiment for the first time in years is veering towards a war (check out todays` newsitem on the Bravery Award winner kid who wants to go and kill Pakis as soon as he grows up. That`s not healthy- blind hatred like that needs an outlet).

So, what the HELL will India win; even if it ``prevails`` ultimately in a conventional war (not to mention with horrendous casualties)? ``Stamping out the Pakistani fundos`` is just as fuzzy an objective as the US had in Vietnam (stamping out Communist fundos). Even if the Indian army, battered & bloody (though ``victorious``) raises the Indian flag in Islamabad or Azad Kashmir; they will have to continue to fight until almost every Pakistani civilian is murdered by them. Even you cant believe its a realistic objective!

## I don`t think that IS the objective. For me, and many others tha objective is simply to get Pakistan out of our hair and let us lead our boring comfortable lives. Kashmir is the key. Obviously we won`t give it up because that would only mean that the Nagas, Bodos, Gurkhas, khalistanis and god alone knows who else (Tamils? Telugus? Keralites?) with any grouse at all with the Govt. will pop right back up with their demands for secession. So the only logical way out is to engage in a full-fledged war with Pakistan on an issue of principle. Whatever the outcome of such a war, we have to fight it. And there is enough anecdotal evidence to believe that we would emerge victorious from a full-scale war.

Maybe this sh1t can be settled once and for all and at least our kids will learn to grow up without being plagued by that monkey Pakistan on their back (pun unintended, but take it anyway).

And thats just a conventional war. I dont want to even BEGIN to think of the ramifications of a NUCLEAR war!

## There is no deispute over the ramifications of a Nuclear war. Go study Game Theory again. The threat of Mutual Assured destruction is what prevents (or at least is supposed to prevent) the nuclear war. God protect us from mad mullahs who think they can nuke us and survive.

The days of Indo-Pak military ``wars`` are OVER; at least rational people on BOTH sides should ACCEPT that its over. There`s got to be a better way to score ``brownie points`` over the other side than mass military mobilisations.

## The so-called rational ones are in a minority, or at least, confined to this side of the border. Rationality cannot rule when the other side is irrational. It has to work both ways.

Inshallah, this current crisis seems to be winding down. But, I`m afraid this is going to happen again & again. All it requires a few extremists in either military to ``settle this one way or another``. Once the ball starts rolling, NOBODY will be able to stop it.

## Look, Shankar, given a choice nobody wants a war. It`s not an easy decision to take at all. Probably you and I might not even survive it. But the current situation is such that Pakistan preceives our reluctance to engage in conventional warfare as weakness. THIS I CANNOT TOLERATE. If we back off now, it would be cowardice. What use are principles if you are wiling to forsake them just to maintain a fragile peace?

If saying ``Enough is Enough`` is being a wus--I`m PROUD to be a wus. I wish you could look at my face; to see if I really CARE what ch---, I mean dickheads, like you think of me..

## Then fine.... you got your fifteen minutes now blow.... what use is it having opinions if you don`t care to listen to those of others? Just one word of warning: if push comes to shove and there is a war, don`t be looking to your Pakistani friends to shower you with affection and support. Because at the end of teh day, whatever their faults, they are patriots. You, like Arundathi Roy, have chosen to secede. I wish you well, but don`t you dare ``represent`` me our my countrymen again.

Regards,

SM

re: Romair # 99

Romair,

I agree with you that most Indians do not know enough about Pakistan or Pakistanis. Unfortunately, the level and quality of dialogue on Chowk provides ample proof that Pakistanis, in general, even highly educated ones, are equally ignorant of India.

Romair, ignorance is certainly dangerous. And we are all suffering the consequences of our ignorance of the other. Much more dangerous, however, is our ignorance of our ignorance.

Regards.

Romair #95:

I have read your post with interest. However, I disagree with what you have said. India screwed up in 1947 by not going after the `tribals` in PoK, when the India-Pak military difference was greatest, IMHO. So, we can pretty much forget about getting back PoK, at least for a long while (unless Pakistan disintegrates on its own and we can reclaim PoK without much cost).

But where we really screwed up was Indira Gandhi and Rajiv`s actions in rigging elections, dismissing Farooq (in early 80s), playing the usual politics that Indira did as in Punjab, AP etc. That led to the uprising in 1989.

Finally, I think Art 370, non Kashmiris not being allowed to settle / buy property there etc is another hindrance. We should have gone for social assimilation (like the Borg), as China is doing in Tibet and Pakistan in PoK by resettling Punjabis and other Pakistanis in PoK.

The alleged HR violations by Indian armed forces are regrettable. But I think some amount of HR violation is inevitable when you have such a long drawn insurgency and the local populace aiding the militants. It is not as if it is Indian state policy to commit HR violations, they are exceptions. That the tortures in custody etc happen is not surprising given that it is resorted to by police everywhere in India (check out the number of custody deaths) - this is something to be handled at a different level. However, they are nothing in magnitude to the terrorist attacks by the militants on civilians in J&K.

So what is the way forward? I dont think India should agree to any sort of autonomy for any part of J&K. If possible, we should get rid of Art 370. What is required is a realisation by Kashmiris that if they give up violence, they can live with dignity and peace in India. If they give up violence, the rest of the Indian people will not tolerate electoral rigging etc, the locals will have the govt they want. With peace comes economic prosperity.

You talked about `if India loved its Kashmiris, it should set them free`. I think what is required is India should woo its Kashmiris back, reduce the alienation, and win their hearts and minds. Till then we can only hunker down and fight it out with the militants.

You mention the independence option for parts of J&K - I totally disagree for many reasons, not least being about India`s unity and soverignity. Kashmir is the source of six rivers, three of whom flow into the granary of India (Punjab). It is a matter of simple food security (leading to other forms of security). A Kashmir not in our control would mean the scruff of our neck would be in others` hands, sorry guys no way. That is surely all the more reason we will be willing to sacrifice more lives to protect Kashmir.

Shankar

ahhh you have finally silenced me.

Re: Romair

``...If they want Pakistan`s help, then they should get it. If they don`t, then Pakistan should stay out...``

And how do you determine what they want? Does Pakistan conduct elections in Kashmir to determine that? These `feel good` shibboleths are what fog your judgment, and allow you to make crass statements like the one above. Did you (or Pakistan) `determine` what the Afghans wanted? Did you `ask` before occupying Afghanistan and turning into a terror factory for the world? Here is a damning indictment from the San Francisco Chronicle:

``...What made Taliban-ruled Afghanistan so useful to Islamabad was that various anti-Indian Kashmiri guerrilla groups could be trained there, under the watchful eye of Pakistani intelligence officials, while giving Pakistan a degree of ``deniability`` about its involvement in anti-India actions. Afghanistan became a safe haven for Kashmiri guerrillas, just as it had for Osama bin Laden`s al Qaeda network...``

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/06/MN136052.DTL

Check out `Why terrorism fails, and why insurgencies sometimes succeed` in The Friday Times

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news2.htm

shankar #97: ``Maybe become ylh`s information minister``

Actually my eyes are on becoming the Minster of Science and Technology of an independent Kashmir :-) The house my mother grew up in is in downtown Srinigar, somewhere. My grandparents and my mother left it fully furnished, with all their life`s belongings, when they migrated to the outskirts of Muzzafarabad. So I could probably move back in.

``IT has no shortage of S.Asians; but politics in that region have been screwed up by too many idiots.``

I agree. South Asians in IT get along extremely well. Infact, outstandingly well. I have never had a single problem with any of the Indians in IT, and vice-versa. Organizations like TiE are operating well. Infact, the head of TiE, Kanwal Rekhi, recently personally went to Lahore and Karachi, met with Musharraf, and opened the TiE Pakistani chapters.

``After coming to Chowk, I have a much ``healthier`` opinion of Pakistanis---& you have played a large role in it--along with several others.``

This is quite good. My opinion of Indians was already quite healthy, since I meet more Indians than Pakistanis, on a daily basis. Infact, I meet more Indians than Americans in my professional life. Sometimes I feel like I took the wrong flight, and landed in India, instead of the US.

I do think that Indians have very little understanding of Pakistan. Just like Pakistanis have very little understanding of Hinduism. Pakistanis do understand Indians quite a bit better than vice-versa, however. This is due to the large numbers of Indians one meets outside Pakistan. And primarily due to the gigantic influx of Indian media into Pakistan, and Pakistan`s acceptance of it. I have lived in the extreme remotest parts of Punjab and NWFP. Places where there are barely any roads. However, there are two institutions that have been present in everyone of those places: A mosque, and an Indian video shop.

Every single one of the military bases I was stationed at had an Indian video shop that did booming business. One of Pakistan`s major military aircraft bases (where everyone is probably on alert, right now) has an Indian video shop right next to the mess hall. Officers would eat lunch, rent an Indian video, go back to their rooms, put on Indian music, and review their practice strike plans against Indian targets. I have done that myself. I can make a bet if you go into Musharraf`s house, you will find Indian movies sitting next to his VCR. Zia-ul-Haq was a big fan of Dilip Kumar (gave the guy a Nishan-e-Imtiaz, Pakistan`s highest civilian award, for not particular reason), and Shatughan Sinha. When my class at a military academy had its final graduation party/picnic, one of the entertainments was and Indian movie. Strange but true.

I don`t think anything like the above exists in India. Due to this, Indians extrapolate their views of Pakistan, based on their views of Indian Muslims, and on what the Indian media feeds them. There is nothing to counterbalance that view. Hence Indian`s views of Pakistan are either non-existent, or incorrect. In Pakistan, due to the above described reasons, there is a lot to counterbalance Pakistan`s official view on India.

In any case, my prediction is that if Musharraf and Vajpayee cannot resolve the issues, then things are going to get worse, and not better. Pakistan is slowly getting stronger, and not weaker. With the recent crackdown on the extremist religious groups, Pakistan`s domestic society, and international reputation, is only getting better. If Pakistan`s economy gets to its traditional 6%+ growth rate (which it had for forty years), then Pakistan could start putting up a tougher negotiating stance with India (which would be unfortunate). Similarly, if the BJP does end up doing better in the recent elections, due to the war rhetoric, then that could set a precedent. And it will become difficult for Vajpayee to ignore that. And if the BJP stays in power without Vajpayee, and Advani takes over, then I don`t know what will happen.

The future of South Asia will always be decided by India, and what it does. The other countries are far too small to take a leadership position. So the person running India controls the future of all the SAARC nations, in his/her hands; not only that of India. If India plays a role like the US does with NATO countries, I don`t think the other countries will have any problems accepting it as the leader (I certainly wouldn`t have a problem). Infact, the other countries, including Pakistan, are hoping and waiting for India to do so.

I would actually be much happier if Pakistan were to become India`s Canada, rather than China`s Canada (Cantonese and Mandarin movies don`t do too well in remote parts of Pakistan). But for that to happen, India has to behave like the world`s fairest democracy, and not the world`s biggest democracy. Giving independence to a mere 2100 sq. miles of land, with no oil, natural resources, or strategic value, to better the future of one-fifth of humanity, logically speaking, should be an easy choice to make.

It has been fun interacting with you, as usual. I am hoping that India is drowned by marginalizing policies of BJP (which could split India into two societies), thereby allowing Pakistan to emerge victorious :-) That is why sane Indians like yourself, and my IT colleagues scare me.

re: Romair

``...Could you point out exactly where in this is the word, ``violence.`` ...``

This is what you said in post #84:

``What if it (Pakistan) then says, it doesn`t want a Kashmir solution? It could just bleed India.``

So, you used the phrase `bleeding India`, not violence. Big deal. It won`t fool us. That is exactly what Pakistan has been engaged in for 2 decades. It also addresses the point that Shankar made when he said: ````Please dont dare me to show which posts you have done that (with righteous indignation, to boot). I dont have the time or the patience to hunt them down.``

Urstruly,

Whoah! For a guy who has no problems throwing stones at the other side & hitting people below the belt; youre righteous indignation at ``character assassination`` doesnt cut any ice with me.

I`m amused at the fact that you stomped out of Chowk when you thought that women were being mistreated & then came back with your usual bs flair.

Go ahead & sulk in your own indignation for all I care. Consider this while you stew in your outrage: ``People who live in glass houses should not throw stones``.

On the other hand, maybe youre tantrum was a way of ducking a very uncomfortable question--let me repost it, for your benefit--

````Since you take great pride in not ducking questions--Please explain to me why such a lack of conscience in the Ummah?````

Now, you are more than welcome to reply this with stony silence. I will reserve the right to draw my conclusions.

Thank you.

Romair,

{{There seems to be some confusion in your mind, on where I stand on various issues. This confusion could be due to a lack of explanation on my part, or because you are making assumptions}}

By & large, I agree with your post. Maybe, my PERCEPTIONS about where you stand on issues were skewed. I appreciate the effort you took in clarifying them.

Youre right, I`ve never interacted with Pakistanis at such a level. Indians & Pakistanis, in my personal experience, tend to give topics like politics & religion a very ``wide berth`` in order to avoid hurt feelings, in ``real life`` :)

After coming to Chowk, I have a much ``healthier`` opinion of Pakistanis---& you have played a large role in it--along with several others.

I think someone like you should play a larger role in Pakistani politics. (Maybe become ylh`s information minister--lord knows that kid needs someone mature to guide him:))

IT has no shortage of S.Asians; but politics in that region have been screwed up by too many idiots. Since the very survival of that region is at stake, your talents are needed there, much more than in IT.

This thread will soon disappear from the front page. For me, personally, it has ended on a positive note--at least a hopeful one.

Peace & Rgds

Shankar

``Mullah Urstruly, of course firmly believes we hindus dont have a conscience. O well, people who worship sticks & stones & penis` cant very well have a conscience, can they?!``

This is character assasination and a balatant lie. Where the hell did I ever said or implied with words or even inuendo that Hindus are bad people or they dont have a conscience because they worship ``sticks & stones & penis```. What the hell do I care what you people worship. Germans were bad because they gassed millions of Jews not because they were white Aryans. Serbs are bad because they condemned thousands of helpless people into death camps and not because they were nationalists and Hindus are bad because they have murdered 80,000 kashmiris, raped thousands of women, and killed their babies and not because they worship......laholwila quwwat. The sin that Hindu has committed is still redeemable-Germans and Serbs are condemned to the history.

Unless you have something positive to say, please dont mention my name in your posts-especially with such poisonous, venomous lies.

Thank you.

shankar #95: There seems to be some confusion in your mind, on where I stand on various issues. This confusion could be due to a lack of explanation on my part, or because you are making assumptions. I clarified some of this in my previous reply. Here is my stance on the other issues you have highlighted:

``Ummm...Ok; maybe except for India..``

I have only criticised India on two issues: 1) Its handling of Kashmir (even there I have pointed out that if Kashmir is opened up to human rights organizations, and I am proven wrong, then I would accept that India was correct). 2) The massive arms race which India is a carrying out in South Asia, including the nuclear arms race. The whole world, through the UN, supports the above two points.

On the other hand I have criticised Pakistan and its leaderships on all kinds of issues, i.e. economics, politics, military, Kashmir, education, corruption, feudalism, etc. My criticism of India is only on issues with effect Pakistan. Apart from that, what difference does it make to me what India does inside India. I don`t live there.

``You have supported Pakistan`s ``low intensity war``; ``war of a 1000 cuts``, ``they are not terrorists; they are freedom fighters``, ``they only target military, not innocent civilians`` & other assorted bs.``

You are again making incorrect statements. My stance is as follows:

- AI and other human rights organizations, including the international press, should be allowed into Kashmir (both Indian Kashmir and Pakistani) and present a clear picture of the situation.

- All the freedom fighers and the Indian military should vacate Kashmir, and a UN force should be delpoyed like Afghanistan.

- A plebescite should be held, and results should be accepted by all.

Could you point out exactly where in this is the word, ``violence.`` I only support in Kashmir, what the Kashmiris want. If they want Pakistan`s help, then they should get it. If they don`t, then Pakistan should stay out.

If India is unwilling to allow self-determination for fifty years, then I think people have a right to forcefully get rid of their occupiers, if they want to. If your neighbor occupies your house and family, and won`t leave, then you have a right to fight him. The moment India agrees to a plebescite all violence will automatically stop. After all, there are always many times more freedom fighters that get killed than the occupying soldiers.

In every single freedom struggle in the world, there are terrorist acts (far far more by the occupying forces, by the way). It is inevitable. These acts should definitely be considered terrorism, and the terrorists should be tried. However these acts by themselves do no take away the legtimicy of the freedom struggle. I have a friend whose whole family was killed by Mukti Bahni. Does that mean Bangladesh should not be independent?

I have always stated anyone who targest civilians is a terrorist, while anyone who targets an occupying army is a freedom fighter. This is the defintion given by Amnesty International also (did you know that the founder of Amnesty International, Mr. Sean McBride (the only man ever to win the Noble Peace Prize and the Lenin Peace Prize) was a former chief of staff of the nationalist Irish Republican Army (IRA)).

On the other hand, I hope you are not suggesting that India has a right to occupy Kashmir, violate the UN resolutions for fifty years (not to mention, violate the basic human rights of Kashmiris), and then also has the right to tell the local population to not fight back. If China attempted to, or actually did, occupy India, would Indians be in thier right to fight China? If yes, then if India occupies someone, don`t they have a right to fight?

``Please dont dare me to show which posts you have done that (with righteous indignation, to boot). I dont have the time or the patience to hunt them down. ``

If you have time to make an accusation, then you should have time to provide the proof. Otherwise, what is the point of making an accusation? How do you expect me to make a counterpoint? This seems to be what the BJP has done. Accusations, without proof, are about to lead South Asia into a nuclear war. It is not a very productive and practical way to argue a point.

````Morality`` is NOT consistent with ``pragmatism``. This only occurs when vested interests are involved. It is true and unfortunate. The world would be a much better and fairer place, if morality was always consistent with pragmatism. But our efforts should be to bring it as close to pragmatism, as possible. Not to move it furthur away.

``If you are comfortable with BOTH points of view, you are just as hypocritical as the rest of us.``

I am not comofortable with both. But I do hope that pragmatism should be based on moral principles, and I would like to struggle for it. I did state in my reply however that, ``I do so on a morality basis, and then on a practicality basis.`` This means I first look at morality and then at pragmatism.

I maybe as hypocritical as anyone, on many issues. But I lay out everything on the table, and base my views on a constant principle.

``We can judge a human being, country, idea or policy either from a moral/idealistic standpoint or a realistic/pragmatic standpoint.

Eg; The US bombing of Afghanistan is WRONG from a moral/idealistic standpoint; but RIGHT from a realistic/pragmatic standpoint.``

We should always look at everything from a moral view first. And try to base our pragmatic solutions as close to morality, as possible. This is not a zero sum gum. Infact the most successful domestic societies (like USA) are the ones where pragmatism is based on moralism. Unfortunately, very few countries (apart from Canada) follow these principles in foreign policy. Moralism will always lead to a better standard of living, than immoral pragmatism. If one just relies on pragmatism, then why not kill all the poor people in India and Pakistan. Pragmatically speaking, it is the easiest way of getting rid of poverty? Why have Social Security in the US? Just let the old folks die.

It is this sensitivity to moral issues vs. pragmatism which separtes humans from animals. Animals look at everything pragmatically. They eat their young if they can or have to. It is the survival of the fittest. But humans look beyond mere pragmatism, and attempt to look at morality. This is what makes us human, after all. It is only when we give into pragmatism over moralism that we start becoming inhumane. This should never be accpted as the status quo. Is Gandhi famous because of his moralism or his pragmatism? Is Mandela respected because he was pragmatic or moralistic? Is it pragmatic to stay locked up for 21 years. Or to take actions that get one assisinated by the RSS? No. But it is moral.

The US getting rid of the Taliban was moral, in my view. So it was not wrong. Although I do wish the US had exhausted all legal avenues first. However, the military strategy used by the US to get rid of the Taliban, (through massive high altitude bombing) was not moral. To not risk one American pilot`s life, it was willing to let stray bombs (due to high altitude) kill hundreds of innocent non-combatant Afghans.

``Pick either/or--if you pick BOTH when & where it SUITS your spin; its hypoCRISY & INCONSISTENT``

I have already picked, in my last reply. And I picked morality first, and pragmatism second. For example, I feel morally Kashmir should be free. Morally, I hope and feel that all the Indians in my office feel that way also. But I have a feeling that many of them don`t feel this way. It would be pragmatic for me to change my stance, and agree with them (since even though all of them are my subordinates, there are seven or eight of them and one of me). This may make me more popular with them. Who knows, it may even lead to higher productivity in my group. But I will stick with my moral stance. After that, I will be pragmatic, and will continue to work with my Indian colleagues, eat with them, socialize with them, and have a friendship. If they were to attack me, because I am a Kashmiri, then I will fight them back. But apart from that, I should not stop being friendly with them. Nor should I change my moral stance.

``Please do not judge your opinions of Indians based on Chowk India only. India is a vast & heterogenous country.``

I have met far too many Indians. So I do know their are many differnt types of Indians. And many on Chowk are quite balanced also. As I stated, on a day to day basis, it is quite possible I interact with more Indians than you do. And I have regularly stated, I feel India has a more educated and sophisticated population than Pakistan. Infact, the core of the educated Pakistani population are the descendants of Muslims who migrated from India (Muhajirs). India also has a higher intellectual discourse in its society. However, due to perhaps the BJP, and due to the acceptance of the influx of the Indian media, and due to the newborn openness of press, media, and thought in Pakistan (lead by Chief Muhajir Musharraf), Pakistan seems to be moving ahead of India in balanced views and introspection now, in my opinion. India seems to be really moving backwards in this area, by leaps and bounds. It is becoming too self-righteous (like Pakistan used to be). This is going to be the achilles heal of India, vis a vis Pakistan, in my opinion.

``I agree with you that there is no shortage of idiotic Indians on Chowk.``

Being an idiot is a relative term. One person`s idiot is another person`s leader. You only get attacked by Indians, and are respected by Pakistanis on Chowk. Much like SameerJB is respected by Indians and attacked by Pakistanis. I get attacked by both Indians and Pakistanis, on a regular basis. Even little Scout is after me, now :-)

My personal opinion on Chowk Indians is they, like most Indians, are intelligent, and want to learn about Pakistan. Otherwise, why would they waste their time on a Pakistani website (only a small minority are on here to just spread hate). However, when it comes to Kashmir (and Indo-Pak conflicts) most of them discard logic and obvious facts. If these people can convince me logically, then I am more than happy to admit they are right.

``Vajpayee said ``if Pakistan stops cross-border terrorism, India would walk more than half way to meet them``--if you believe him that is..``

I have been openly stating for a long time that I like and respect Vajpayee. You will rarely, if ever, see me making any statements against him. I think he and Musharraf have the Kashmir situation solved between them (seriously). And it is as follows: POK to Pakistan. Ladakh and Jammu to India. Valley (only 2100 sq. miles) independent. Vajpayee is having a tough time selling it to Advani and co. That is what frustrates me. Because, this is the best leadership India and Pakistan will have to solve this issue. Once Vajpayees goes, it is all downhill. Hopefully Musharraf will be around, because BB and NS will back off, if anyone in Pakistan threatens them. If Vajpayee today states that, India is willing to, in some form or manner, allow self-determination in Kashmir, I think all violent freedom struggles in Kashmir should stop. It will, infact, automatically stop.

You also need to keep in mind that the main thrust, by far, of the Kashmiri freedom struggle is indigenous, amongst the millions of Kashmiris. The people who come in from Pakistan only augment the struggle. They cannot the main struggle. Regardles of what the Indian media says, they are only a few hundred in number (if that many), at any one time. After all, it is not easy to get past 500,000+ soldiers gaurding a border. And not all of them are Jehadis. Many of them are technocrat Kashmiris from all over the world. I know professional banker(s), engineer(s) etc. who have gone in and fought in Kashmir. Well-off educated and wealthy Kashmiris want freedom also. There is a Kashmiri in the UK House of Lords. There are American Kashmiri CEO(s) who want freedom for Kashmir.

``Whatever spin you want to put on Kargil, it was a backstab--pure & simple.``

I think you skip through part of my replies :-) Ever since Kargil was started, I have been stating it was a wrong action by Pakistan (even though it was a counter to India`s initial action in Siachen, which is still going on, but gets zero coverage in the Indian press). I have always stated that it is ridiculous for India or Pakistan to launch military attacks against each other. They have never worked for either side. Siachen costs India, I believe, .5 million dollars a day. It should be stopped. The current Indian military buildup should be stopped. Kargil was wrong. Pakistan`s actions in Kashmir in 65 were wrong. India attacking Pakistan in 71 were wrong. Bangladeshis should have been allowed a plebescite based independence (even though it was not required by the UN, and even though East Pakistan was not disputed territory). And Kashmiris should be allowed a plebescite (this is required by the UN, and Kashmir is a disputed territory).

``Whether it will be perfectly acceptable to most Pakistanis``

It makes no difference whether it would be acceptable to most Pakistanis. Pakistanis would have no argument left, after a plebescite.

``do know for a fact that Indians dont hate Kashmiris``

I hope they don`t. The ultimate test of love is to let someone go, if that is their wish. Otherwise it is not love, it is obsession. That is why men stalk women who have divorced them. Here is my suggestion to the Indians,

``If you love Kashmir, set it free. If it comes

back to you, it is yours... If it doesn`t, it was never meant to be.``

``Kashmiris shot themselves in the foot by this insurgency``

This could be right or wrong. But this is a decision to be made by the Kashmiris, not by you. Wouldn`t you agree? The Kashmiris did wait patiently for forty years, before the militarism started. I don`t know of any intellectual movement in India that was willing to allow the Kashmiris a right of self-determination, in those forty years. Is there one in India, now?

``If you want to champion the rights of Kashmiris; you`d BETTER criticise Pakistan`s backing of China.``

I really don`t know much about what China is doing in Tibet. Perhaps I should know. But I don`t. I will make that my next project, after Kashmir. But I will apply my principle to China in a similar fashion as I do to Pakistan in East Pakistan, and to India in Kashmir. As I stated, if I can criticize Pakistan for its actions in 71, then why wouldn`t I criticize China`s actions. And if I criticize Pakistan`s actions itself, then of course I would criticize Pakistan for supporting any countries` human rights violations. It should be obvious.

Romair,

{{I have criticised Pakistan far more than I have criticised any other country.}}

Ummm...Ok; maybe except for India..



{{And I make my arguments on the basis of principles. I never change those principles, even it makes Pakistan a culprit.}}

Sorry; I disagree. You have supported Pakistan`s ``low intensity war``; ``war of a 1000 cuts``, ``they are not terrorists; they are freedom fighters``, ``they only target military, not innocent civilians`` & other assorted bs.

Please dont dare me to show which posts you have done that (with righteous indignation, to boot). I dont have the time or the patience to hunt them down. If I have misunderstood you, I apologise.

{{You can doubt my principle, but you cannot doubt my consistency.}}

``Morality`` is NOT consistent with ``pragmatism``. If you are comfortable with BOTH points of view, you are just as hypocritical as the rest of us.

We can judge a human being, country, idea or policy either from a moral/idealistic standpoint or a realistic/pragmatic standpoint.

Eg; The US bombing of Afghanistan is WRONG from a moral/idealistic standpoint; but RIGHT from a realistic/pragmatic standpoint.

Pick either/or--if you pick BOTH when & where it SUITS your spin; its hypoCRISY & INCONSISTENT. IMHO, you have, over the last couple of years--so join my club:)--cos so have I.

Let me tell you some examples of TOTALLY consistent guys---Urstruly & Jay! I can call them a lot of names; but I guess I cant call them hypocrites & inconsistent:)



{{What I have found is that nearly all Indians switch their principle when India is the agressor, from when India is the oppressed. This is unfortunate. Many Pakistanis do the same, and that is wrong also. However, if you look at the comments on this site, and in Pakistan, you will find that nearly all Pakistanis of the currrent generation, accept the existence of India (while many Indians doubt Pakistan`s existence) and they accept Pakistan`s faults in Bangladesh (not at the level many Bangladeshis claim, but Pakistanis do consider Pakistan the guilty party). This is a sign of an evolving society, more so than elections. Indians seem to be completely in a state of denial on Kashmir, however, i.e. Indians and Bangladeshis deserved self-determination, but Pakistanis and Kashmiris do not.}}

Agreed; for the most part. Please do not judge your opinions of Indians based on Chowk India only. India is a vast & heterogenous country. I agree with you that there is no shortage of idiotic Indians on Chowk. I guess its obvious by how they spit at me:)

{{With regard to international issues, specifically Kashmir, I have always stated that I don`t care what Pakistan or India get out of the deal. I have never stated that Pakistan is not at fault. .}}

Fortunately or unfortunately, you are NOT the official voice of the GoP. Personally, I think India & Pakistan would be better friends, if you were. Vajpayee said ``if Pakistan stops cross-border terrorism, India would walk more than half way to meet them``--if you believe him that is..

He did go to Lahore, you know, with the best of intentions. Whatever spin you want to put on Kargil, it was a backstab--pure & simple. Then Pakistanis call Indians bagal-mein-churi!.. So arresting the jehadis is a step in the right direction. But it will, alas, take more time for Indians to trust Pakistanis.

{{I do however, know for a fact, that nearly all Pakistanis sincerely feel for the Kashmiris, and for their lives. This is not a facade. They just want self-determination for Kashmiris. This could result in Kashmir joining India. That would be perfectly acceptable by me}}

I know it would be perfectly acceptable to you. Whether it will be perfectly acceptable to most Pakistanis--is debatable; but I`ll take youre word for it:)

I do know for a fact that Indians dont hate Kashmiris-muslims or otherwise. Nothing would please them more if they agitated their grievences through a democratic process & satyagraha. This is not a facade...Kashmir has a deep & powerful cultural & religious significance for many many Indians. My own ancestors, Saraswat Brahmins originated from Kashmir, before they migrated to Karnatak. My original ancestral temples & some of our holiest shrines are in Kashmir. So losing Kashmir, would be like losing a part of my own identity.

Its a moot issue, though. Kashmir is the ONLY state in India where a non-Kashmiri isnt allowed to buy land or set up permanent residence. And that includes Indians whose ancestors originated from Kashmir. Nobody wants to visit it when there is a guerella war going on. Thousands of Kashmiris, whose livelihoods depended on tourism are now starving. Those who openly support India (there may be about 5-10 of them:)) are too scared of the radicals to open their mouths. Kashmiris shot themselves in the foot by this insurgency & just about committed suicide when the more radical ones looked to Pakistan for support.

Be that as it may, I`d rather see it independant than destroyed like this..

{{Amnesty International is a very powerful organiztion. If it makes one statement against the US, the US govt. takes action. It is an extremely credible organization, also. That is why it is banned in Kashmir. The Indian Law Minister stated himself on CNN that 61,000 civilians have been killed in Kashmir. He blamed the killings on Pakistani terrorists. If that is the case, then Pakistan should is to blame. If they were killed by India, then India should face the blame. However, we need neutral organizations to decide that, like AI.}}

Agreed.

One last thing. Please dont say you are not an EXPERT on China. You dont have to be an ``expert`` to know what China has done in Tibet or what kind of human rights abuses are going on there. I REFUSE to believe that an intelligent guy like you is so ignorant.

Besides ``experts`` are anything BUT neutral. Even your beloved Eric Margolis. Analysts--military, political, foreign policy etc etc are NOT neutral. Each one uses their own bias when making a point. Cos these are not exact sciences like math or physics.

So you RIGHT when you support Pakistan strenghtening relations with China on a pragmatic/realistic basis; & you are WRONG to do so if you want to champion the human right for freedom on a moral/idealistic basis---thats the inconsistency I`m talking about.. If you want to champion the rights of Kashmiris; you`d BETTER criticise Pakistan`s backing of China. Otherwise.. you are a --------.

hobbytv,

{{Yet, none of this means that kashmirs freedom from India is a non issue. Kashmir will be free of India, if not today, then tomorrow, if not tomorrow then the day after - there is an inevitablity to this process. kashmir will never again a trouble free area for India - while Pakistani failure to highlight kashmir as a moral cause is accepted, what will follow, is the indian and global acceptance of Indian failure in Kashmir; a psychologically event, not without larger consequences.}}

Cant argue with you ,when you put it like that. Go ahead Indian mofos; give me all the gaalis you want--I`ll kiss up to Pakistani statements like that. You got a problem with that?; kiss my butt...

soundmeister,

{{I lost some respect for you when you failed to reply to my last post, but after reading this last monstrosity of yours, I`m more convinced than ever that you`re a wuss, a loser, a pathetic excuse for a human being who will never take any pride in what he does and spend his life with his hands in other people`s sh1t.}}

Sigh...I guess you are relatively new to Chowk. This business about what people think of me--I`ve explained several times in the past; so its getting BORING. But I guess I have to do it time & again--because ALAS; extremist Indian sh *theads like you pop your ugly heads over & over again on Chowk. I thought that maybe if I just smirk & ignore mofos like you, you will disappear--but no; you post over & over again about how much you hate me--like an annoying mosquito, buzzing in my ear.

Besides; now you`ve gone & pissed off anNY & then have the balls to talk to her in a patronising, condescending manner. BIG MISTAKE pal. I pity you now:) Chowk vetrans have learnt this the hard way--NEVER EVER get these Pakistani shernis mad at you! They`ll eat you for lunch! They are more khatarnak than their ``world famous`` military!

My good friend Saxena is too proud to admit it; but he has plenty of scars to show for it. Its a good thing that his balls have the same qualities as shark`s teeth. They`ve been chopped off several times by these shernis. Yes, he sprouts new ones everytime they get lopped off. But I know it hurts him, like crazy. Heck, he scurried into a rathole when one of them blew her stack. He absolutely REFUSES to get into a fight with another, eventhough she baits him . Then he cries that he`s being stalked by her!

So, if anNy is in my corner; a wus like me becomes INVINCIBLE!:)

OK, seriously, (sigh.. this sounds like a frikking broken record).. I feel VERY VERY good when a guy like you loses respect for me. In fact, I`m happy you`ve now lost respect for me COMPLETELY; rather than just a little bit. It proves to me that I`m on the right track when extremists (esp Indian extremists) hate what I say. As far as I`m concerned, guys like you are much more dangerous for India than any of those Paki fundos.

Hey, I got no problem if Indians are angry at Pakistani jehadis for the attack on the parliament or the low intensity war they are conducting in Kashmir. I am too. I also feel that the GoP is responsible (directly or indirectly) for this crap. Personally, I dont feel Mushy knew about this attack. I dont care much for his anti-indian stance--but he`s not an idiot. He`s probably the most astute Pakistani leader that they have produced--in my lifetime, at least.

But that does`nt mean India is this innocent victim of terror & her hands are clean. In that respect, I COMPLETELY agree with Romair--right is right & wrong is wrong. What India has done in Kashmir is something I`m ashamed of--Pakistan or no Pakistan. Just because GoP is wrong, does`nt automatically mean that the GoI is RIGHT! What we disagree, probably, is the WAY each country is go