India, Pakistan and America’s Mixed Signals

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wadera #47:

Here is the relevant link to the NYTimes

article on the Chittisinhpora Sikh massacre.

You will need to purchase it to access the

full text.

http://query.nytimes.com/search/abstract?res=F00A13FC3A5C0C728FDDAB0994D8404482

There is no clear conclusion about the terrorist

group reached in the article. It is however very

clear from the article that the Sikhs in the valley are much too

scared to point directly at the suspects.

And here a couple of suggestions:

(1) don`t bother to quote a ``religous leaders``

on this type of issue!

(2) If you agree not to quote Eric Margolis,

I will agree not to quote from magazines published

by the RSS. I hope you get the idea.

Re: Wadera

Even if you do believe that India `manufactures` incidents (just as perhaps the US `manufactured` 9/11), it doesn`t really matter. What matters is what the world believes. And THAT is the crucial difference. BTW, your remedy for the problem is spot on.

The situation reminds me of 1971 when another

boozer was incharge. The command structure is

a little different. There is Gen Aziz - the

mastermind of Kargil - officiating as Chairman

of the Joint Staff - I am not sure but this is

the man whose brains were removed during an

operation in CMH Quetta when he was Colonel -

and the neurosurgeon forgot to put it back in. The

brain is still on display but what is not on

display is the blood and gore of the thousands of youngmen he sent to his death in Kargil.....

CRY FREEDOM, CRY,

There are many educated proud pakistanis on chowk, who believe in life with dignity. In their country, ruled by a military man is running to get orders, this time from the chinese. Thier previous leader, nwaz, ran to the Us for orders.

What pakistan needs is pride, a sense of difnity, an ability to think as pakistanis, not as appendages to the saudis, to the yanks and now to the chinese.

It is heart wrenching to see these ex-indians wallowing in such ahameful acts. Then again, it is the darwenian selection, the desperate and the despicable chose to create the new country.

From dawn of today

Musharraf leaves for Beijing tomorrow

ISLAMABAD, Jan 1: President Gen Pervez Musharraf is to leave for Beijing on Thursday for talks with Chinese leaders on border tensions with India, a foreign ministry official said on Tuesday.

``President Musharraf will hold talks with Chinese Prime Minister Zhu Rongji on Thursday. He will also attend a banquet being hosted by the Chinese premier for him at the Great Hall,`` the official said on condition of anonymity

Ras

Should have written this article before we let amaricans take control of our air bases, cantonments, and airports. US is a bad news period. It must be avoided like a leapor.But now it is too late. As long as Pakistan still controls its nuclear arsenal it is relatively safe, but as soon as it hands it over to US the US`s first step would be to push it into a cycle of anarchy. It has argentina written all over it. And then an invasion from east ......

RE:Yahuda goldsteen

Shammi

Looks like Pakistan needs a hole in the head. Not one hole but multiple holes.

It also needs siphoning the poison from its veins because it carries terror genes.

It needs its brain blown away because it does not understand other people and accuses them as anti-islam from music to toys to beards to marriages.

It needs its balls crushed for producing to many terrorists.

It needs amputation of hands for threatening to use Muslim nukes.

It needs slap on the face for teaching extremism in madarsa.

It needs to break its ankles which undermines democracy.

Does it need eyes which does not see reality and forces military on its people.

It needs its tongue chopped off for calling terrorists as freedon lovers.

India, Israel and US should fight this menace together.

Salom from Tel Aviv



Hey Yehuda,

I perfectly agree with you about what is to be done to Pakistan but there is another country which needs another their head cut thats Israel.

Sorry dude, Pakistan and Israel just same type of countries. Artificial nations founded on stupid inhuman theories, whose implementation relies on ethnic cleansing of infidels and gentiles respectively. These countries founded on religious intolerance have to be dissolved.

INDIANS reject salom from a zionist imperialist. Indians will always oppose any kind of imperialism anywhere. Dont dare to equate Israel with India. Leave our foolish stupid leaders, but most of Indians support Palestinians and they will support Palestinians till they get complete justice for all horrors done to them. My salut to all brave Palestinians fighting for their just rights and my new year prayers for their success.

END TO TWO NATION THEORISTS, END TO ZIONISTS

Joeseph Arokiaraj

“We have been facing a war albeit a covert one for a while now. Its time we take it out into the open and have an overt one. If nothing else it will prove that paki nukes are just duds.

We need a war soon. We need to show them there is a limit to which an Indian will sit back tight. I am as far removed from a typical bania/brahmin north indian hindu as much as possible. Heck, maybe even the paki mullah can have a stronger cultural link with a punjabi or a haryanvi hindu. But still, as an Indian, I know that we as a nation cannot sit back and look at everything we stand for being destroyed slowly because like a clumsy elephant we are unable to destroy the ants. Well its time we realize we can atleast destroy the ant hill.”

…sigh…sometimes i think war wouldn’t be all that bad if it wiped out imbeciles like you….

“p.s: once we threatened war, we could see most pakistanis advocating peace. Shows the real bravery and strength of the pakistani. Stop pleading for peace and ask your government to fight”

….ahem…..last time i checked it was advani & co calling for war against the “enemy”….well?…..don’t tell me you need pak’s permission for launching war or anything...

pmishra2, #44 this is a quick reply as I have to go across town, but to answer:

I don`t know the nature of Mr Margolis` feelings (whether loving or otherwise) toward Indians or anyone else - but the same reports were also published in London (either the Independent or the Times). Because I cannot remember, I did not quote them. I did see three separate Sikh leaders on interviews give their views that they did not believe it was anything to do with Pakistan. These interviews were on Manchester TV, The Evening Telegraph and I think the third was from a Sikh religious leader in Los Angeles.

As far as the WTC tragedy goes, I think they have named the right guys and that they are targetting the right group (Al-Qaeda) and Bin Laden. And obviously the suicide bombers in Palestine are Palestine - whether Hezbollah or Arafat-backed I don`t know. What helps in making up my mind in this is the kind of information given to us in the media and on TV.

wadera,

I guess the US govt& the international press are also duped by the BJP, like they have duped the Indian people. Nobody, other than Pakistanis (& of course, mian Margolis) really & truly understand Indian treachery.

I mean Indian treachery is so finessed & India`s power is so absolute that not a SINGLE country (not counting Pakistan; of course) has suggested that the attack on the Parliament was fabricated by India itself.

India`s hold over Islamic nations of the world (other than valiant Pakistan, of course) is so great that NOT ONE of countries has even dared to break off diplomatic ties because of its treachery in Kashmir. A polite ``tsk tsk tsk India`` at OIC meetings is all that their fear of India will allow.

Gee maybe these banias are powerful after all...or maybe only ali1 really really understands how cowardly Hindians are.

Too bad Ali 1 isnt Pakistan`s COAS, or CE or whatever the F he`s called nowadays. He KNOWS Indian cowardice. Just send a couple of your world famous jawans across the border (maybe one URstruly is enough)--the dhoti clads will run for their lives. Then he and Urstruly could march with their candles in San Jose.

The rest of the world will continue to be too scared to stand up to India.

For the 9/11 afficiondos---Good stuff

“Oh Lucy! – You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin To Do”

A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH - IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?

Bin Laden Met with the CIA in July and Walked Away

by

Michael C. Ruppert

[© COPYRIGHT 2001, All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. May be copied and distributed for non-profit purposes only.]

FTW, November 2, 2001 – 1200 PST [Revised, Nov 27, 2001] -- On October 31, the French daily Le Figaro dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official - presumably the Chief of Station. The meeting, held in bin Laden’s private suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was a wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and this year’s attack on the U.S.S. Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a 2000 intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving office in January. Yet on July 14th he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet and there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down.

In 1985 Oliver North – the only member of the Reagan-Bush years who doesn’t appear to have a hand in the current war - sent the Navy and commandos after terrorists on the cruise ship Achille Lauro. In his 1991 autobiography “Under Fire,” while describing terrorist Abu Abbas, North wrote, “I used to wonder: how many dead Americans will it take before we do something?” One could look at the number of Americans Osama bin Laden is alleged to have killed before September 11 and ask the same question.

It gets worse, much worse. A more complete timeline listing crucial events both before and after the September 11th suicide attacks, which have been blamed on bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests that there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their execution. It also makes clear that the events which have taken place since September 11th are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the attacks.

One wonders how these events could have been ignored by the major media or treated as isolated incidents. Failing that, how could skilled news agencies avoid being outraged, or at least even just a little suspicious?

1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 – “The Best Enemies Money Can Buy,” - http://www.copvcia.com/members/carlyle.html. ]

January, 2001 – The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to “back off” investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden’s relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, VA – right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996, frustrating efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast – Nov 7, 2001].

Feb 13, 2001 – UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale – while covering a trial of bin Laden’s Al Q’aeda followers - reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden’s encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

May 2001 – Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001].

May, 2001 – Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour while CIA Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that while in Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as “an unusually long meeting,” also met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI. [Source The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001.]

June 2001 – German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.” [Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001.]

July, 2001 – Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia), meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A French book released in November, “Bin Laden - La Veriteì Interdite,” discloses that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source: The Guardian, September 22, 2001; the BBC, September 18, 2001.The Inter Press Service, Nov 16, 2001]........

Rest on:

http://www.copvcia.com/stories/nov_2001/lucy.html

Cover Story:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101020722/story.html

wadera #39:

Please do not quote the renowned india-hater

Eric Margolis in any discussion about the

sub-continent. Mr. Margolis is most famous

for his claim that the Air India Jet blown

up in 1984 was intentionally destroyed by the

Indian goverment. Three sikh extremists

are under trial for this crime

in a canadian court today.

By quoting him

you have either innocently or intentionally

lowered the quality of your message.

The NYTimes magazine had a good

article on the Sikh massacre which has

not as yet been definitively connected

to a specific terrorist group.

[begin quote]

Regarding the Sikh massacre timed for Clinton`s visit even Eric Margolis has this to say in his column: ``... Indian forces disguised as Kashmiri mujihadin have even attacked Sikhs in an effort to turn them against Muslims.

[end quote]

BTW, who do you think is behind the WTC

bombings? Or the suicide bombers in

Israel? I have a feeling I know the answer.

I do not agree with the writer. War is the only thing India wants now. It has given Pakistan many warnings but to no avail. Author is partial to Pakistan and sees nukes as a Muslim pride. He does not see the problem Pakistan has created for itself. If Kashmir is to be decided by the Kashmiris then Pakistan should get out. Pakistan should give NWFP to Pushtoons and get out of Kashmir. India can bifurcate Pakistan with surgical precision. Its three Strike Corps each containing three specialised Divisions have been mobilised. It means 150,000 troops in Strike Corps. This does not include 3 Mountain Divisions and about 10 Brigades strengths troops. It is not a show of force but is going to cost defence department at least 500 crores just for mobilisation.

India has bought arms worth 7000 crores in the last twelve months alone. Under pressure from Bush and UN things have started to move although slowly.

Pakistanis expelled Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan in 1947 so these communities do not have anybody to cry for. Muslims have relatives on both sides. So let them cry. It is their problem. Muslims had 53 years to bring about good governence and plenty of chances. India is not willing to give a last chance after its democratic pillar was attacked. Muslims are so cheap and Besharam, they still not recognise their role in world terrorism. India should expel theses guys from India. Let them go to Pakistan or Arabs whose religion they follow. Do not cry Pakistaaaan...

re hamzad afaqui 31

``If India allowed a real national referendum, Kashmir would doubtless go with Pakistan, ...``

Dude, even Karachi will most likely vote to become independent than be with Pakistan, if given the choice. And you are talking about Jammu and Kashmir.

Even Pakistan knows this which is why every candidate for `Azad` KAshmir`s assembly has to swear an oath to uphold the state`s evetual accession to Pakistan. Clean up the sham act in `azad` KAshmir, then lecture to India abour her behavior.

Reply # 28 chandan



[``I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:

1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan.``]

I didn`t attend this rally, since I will only attend the one which will be held to celebrate India`s complete annhilation. However, from what I have heard about the vigil, this watery stool pigeon is lying. There were many more Indians than Pakistanis in this vigil.

Chandan, probably you were the only Indian in RSS shorts? Also, dou you think all Indians wear polyester dress pants with chappals?

[``But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it.``]

Everyone expects India behave cowardly because thats your heritage and your history.

[``I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected``]

It seems like you are actually looking forward to the holocaust. So what was the point in going to the ``peace`` vigil, you samosabottom?

[``So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.``]

Why haven`t your chicken hearted cowardly leaders started the ``final`` war yet? Don`t they care for their people`s prosperity? Or are you guys stockpiling on cowdung for the famine ahead?