India, Pakistan and America’s Mixed Signals
Ras Siddiqui December 30, 2001
#1 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on January 1, 2001 1:47:39 am
A very Happy New Year to all readers of CHOWK
from
Farah & Ras Siddiqui
Let us pray for peace in the world, especially
in South Asia.
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#2 Posted by hamzadafaqui on January 1, 2001 12:50:32 pm
WORTH READING!
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j123101.html
THE BRAHMIN BOMB
On the other side of the Middle East, New Delhi`s Brahmins are wielding the nuclear stick more openly, explicitly threatening Pakistan with the unthinkable. At issue is the Vale of Kashmir, a section of Central Asia so mountainous and inaccessible that it makes the terrain of Afghanistan look like a golf course. India has always claimed it, in spite of its overwhelmingly Muslim population. If India allowed a real national referendum, Kashmir would doubtless go with Pakistan, but New Delhi`s ``Great Power`` conceit would never permit that, and so the region has been in a constant state of war since the partition of India and Pakistan more than 50 years ago.
IMPERIAL INDIA
From this lair of Islamic ``terrorism,`` various Islamic tribes and groups have launched attacks on India proper, and the Brahmins, asserting their regional hegemony, have decided to follow the good example of the United States in pursuing ``terrorism`` to its source. Since the Indians aver – without offering any proof – that the terrorist attacks have been organized and directed by Islamabad, and that these groups are little more than proxies for Pakistan, in effect a de facto state of war already exists between the two nuclear-armed nations. And the conflict is rapidly spreading….
THE RIPPLE EFFECT
The news that China has moved its troops up to the border with India should have hit the headlines like a thunderclap. The dominoes are falling fast, and even rippling outward to the edge of the world, where North Korea – starving, desperate, and demented – teeters on the brink. The ``mystery ship`` that invaded Japanese waters and was sunk by the Japanese Defense Force sent shockwaves through Japan, and globalized this perilous moment.
ON THE BRINK
Are we standing on the brink of World War III? It all depends on just how crazy are the Hindu nationalists who rule an increasingly bizarre and militant India. Perhaps not all of them are particular devotees of Kali, goddess of destruction – all I know is that Kali holds a central place in the Hindu pantheon, and she no doubt has lots of fans. Here, for example, is an Associated Press story detailing the mindset of the people of Jaisalmer, India, who live near the border with Pakistan, who are ``aching for war``:
```Bring on another war, we are ready,` shouts Jagdish Prasad Vasa, a craggy shopkeeper who has lived through the three wars between India and Pakistan since independence from Britain in 1947. His war cries draw similar chants from the old turbaned men drinking sweet tea at the foot of the sandcastle-like fort.
```The Jaisalmeris are warriors by nature, always on alert and never afraid to fight,` says Vasa, spitting out juice from his `gutkha,` a concoction of tobacco, betel nut and spices. `It`s time to put Pakistan down, for good.```
KALI CALLS
We`ve heard all this highfalutin` theorizing about how Islam, at least in its Wahabist incarnation, is the equivalent of ``Islamo-fascism,`` but how much more explicit can you get than deifying the concept of Destruction? If I were the Pakistanis, I wouldn`t rule out the distinct possibility of an Indian first strike – would you?
PERFIDIOUS INDIA
By even raising the threat to begin with, New Delhi is announcing to the world that the proximity of US troops in the region is absolutely no deterrent. Remember that, during the Cold War, the Indians were generally pro-Russian, and their hatred of America has by no means abated. Pakistan, on the other hand, has stood by the US, with General Pervez Musharraf risking the peace and stability of his own country to root out Al Qaeda. What has India done to fight the bin Ladenites?
And now something to rub into the numb-asses of the Bhooraa-goraas from Indo-Pak.
ISRAEL NIXES NEW YEAR`S EVE
The austerity of the Muslim mindset was matched by the Israelis, who invoked a similarly stern religious edict against millennial joy. ``The party is no merrier in Israel,`` I wrote,
``That beloved theocracy, where an official council of rabbis has made it all but impossible for even foreigners to enjoy a New Year`s party. Hotel owners have been told that they may not hold New Year`s celebrations. While not forbidden to rent facilities to non-Jews, hotels must somehow make sure that no Jews would be admitted. Music, at any rate, is strictly forbidden at these gatherings – no, not even a single verse of `Auld Lange Syne`!``
__________________________________________________
The third-rate westernism is definitely heading towards a doom.....All that they taught you as `philosohies` & `theories` which end in ISM will soon have a LA inserted there for good.Kanjars,hijraas,& mirasees will be allowed to exist for the express purpose of providing entertainment---as in the good old days.
__________________________________________________
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j123101.html
THE BRAHMIN BOMB
On the other side of the Middle East, New Delhi`s Brahmins are wielding the nuclear stick more openly, explicitly threatening Pakistan with the unthinkable. At issue is the Vale of Kashmir, a section of Central Asia so mountainous and inaccessible that it makes the terrain of Afghanistan look like a golf course. India has always claimed it, in spite of its overwhelmingly Muslim population. If India allowed a real national referendum, Kashmir would doubtless go with Pakistan, but New Delhi`s ``Great Power`` conceit would never permit that, and so the region has been in a constant state of war since the partition of India and Pakistan more than 50 years ago.
IMPERIAL INDIA
From this lair of Islamic ``terrorism,`` various Islamic tribes and groups have launched attacks on India proper, and the Brahmins, asserting their regional hegemony, have decided to follow the good example of the United States in pursuing ``terrorism`` to its source. Since the Indians aver – without offering any proof – that the terrorist attacks have been organized and directed by Islamabad, and that these groups are little more than proxies for Pakistan, in effect a de facto state of war already exists between the two nuclear-armed nations. And the conflict is rapidly spreading….
THE RIPPLE EFFECT
The news that China has moved its troops up to the border with India should have hit the headlines like a thunderclap. The dominoes are falling fast, and even rippling outward to the edge of the world, where North Korea – starving, desperate, and demented – teeters on the brink. The ``mystery ship`` that invaded Japanese waters and was sunk by the Japanese Defense Force sent shockwaves through Japan, and globalized this perilous moment.
ON THE BRINK
Are we standing on the brink of World War III? It all depends on just how crazy are the Hindu nationalists who rule an increasingly bizarre and militant India. Perhaps not all of them are particular devotees of Kali, goddess of destruction – all I know is that Kali holds a central place in the Hindu pantheon, and she no doubt has lots of fans. Here, for example, is an Associated Press story detailing the mindset of the people of Jaisalmer, India, who live near the border with Pakistan, who are ``aching for war``:
```Bring on another war, we are ready,` shouts Jagdish Prasad Vasa, a craggy shopkeeper who has lived through the three wars between India and Pakistan since independence from Britain in 1947. His war cries draw similar chants from the old turbaned men drinking sweet tea at the foot of the sandcastle-like fort.
```The Jaisalmeris are warriors by nature, always on alert and never afraid to fight,` says Vasa, spitting out juice from his `gutkha,` a concoction of tobacco, betel nut and spices. `It`s time to put Pakistan down, for good.```
KALI CALLS
We`ve heard all this highfalutin` theorizing about how Islam, at least in its Wahabist incarnation, is the equivalent of ``Islamo-fascism,`` but how much more explicit can you get than deifying the concept of Destruction? If I were the Pakistanis, I wouldn`t rule out the distinct possibility of an Indian first strike – would you?
PERFIDIOUS INDIA
By even raising the threat to begin with, New Delhi is announcing to the world that the proximity of US troops in the region is absolutely no deterrent. Remember that, during the Cold War, the Indians were generally pro-Russian, and their hatred of America has by no means abated. Pakistan, on the other hand, has stood by the US, with General Pervez Musharraf risking the peace and stability of his own country to root out Al Qaeda. What has India done to fight the bin Ladenites?
And now something to rub into the numb-asses of the Bhooraa-goraas from Indo-Pak.
ISRAEL NIXES NEW YEAR`S EVE
The austerity of the Muslim mindset was matched by the Israelis, who invoked a similarly stern religious edict against millennial joy. ``The party is no merrier in Israel,`` I wrote,
``That beloved theocracy, where an official council of rabbis has made it all but impossible for even foreigners to enjoy a New Year`s party. Hotel owners have been told that they may not hold New Year`s celebrations. While not forbidden to rent facilities to non-Jews, hotels must somehow make sure that no Jews would be admitted. Music, at any rate, is strictly forbidden at these gatherings – no, not even a single verse of `Auld Lange Syne`!``
__________________________________________________
The third-rate westernism is definitely heading towards a doom.....All that they taught you as `philosohies` & `theories` which end in ISM will soon have a LA inserted there for good.Kanjars,hijraas,& mirasees will be allowed to exist for the express purpose of providing entertainment---as in the good old days.
__________________________________________________
#3 Posted by amitji on January 1, 2001 12:50:32 pm
Pakistan has been involved in terrorism for decades now and has created caos and destruction in kashmir for the last ten years. Unfortunately, it continues its act of cowardly terror war sending militants accross the border into india in order to kill thousands of innocent indians. It is pakistani policy to ethnically cleanse kashmir of hindus, through the use of murder, rape, and pillage. But what else can be expected of jihad? If only the indian army would send in several hundred thousand troops and do a little cleansing themselves. With 200+ nuclear warheads with the missles to boot, nuclear war means only one thing: the destruction of what we call pakistan, in the event of a nuclear exchange, india would still be on the map, but the same can not be said for the islamic state of pakistan. I think its time to make the terrorists pay.
#4 Posted by chandan on January 1, 2001 12:50:32 pm
``Peace`` vigil in San Jose:
I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:
1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.
2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.
3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.
4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.
5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.
6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.
Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.
But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.
Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.
I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:
1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.
2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.
3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.
4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.
5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.
6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.
Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.
But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.
Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.
#5 Posted by chandan on January 1, 2001 12:50:32 pm
``Peace`` vigil in San Jose:
I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:
1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.
2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.
3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.
4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.
5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.
6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.
Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.
But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.
Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.
I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:
1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.
2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.
3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.
4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.
5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.
6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.
Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.
But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.
Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.
#6 Posted by anarayan on January 1, 2001 12:50:32 pm
Ras,
Some comments:
(1)
``That America would win the war against terrorism in Afghanistan was known by all except a misguided few in the region. Passions are no match for 21st century technology and know how. To believe that a group of fighters armed with rudimentary tools of war were going to win against a super-power, which had conventional weapons of mass destruction at its disposal, was to live in a fool’s paradise.``
Are you calling Romair a FOOL now? Where were you when Romair was pouring it on ??? Don`t recall anyone (except hamidm and tahmed) giving him a piece of their mind at that time.
(2)
``Why would Pakistanis pick this moment of all times to support terrorism in India, especially when the rest of the world including their own leadership is fighting a war against it? India in particular has threatened a military response against “terrorism” emanating from Pakistan. Nobody mentions the fact that Pakistan needs terrorism today like it needs a hole in its head.``
Good point. But this assumes there are no fools in Pakistan. Go to answer-1.
(3)
``And nobody mentions the fact that both the United States and Pakistan once had a relationship with the Taliban Regime in Afghanistan. They only mention Pakistan.``
Don`t see you complaining about all the billion$ afghan aid you skimmed...also the weaponry. Talk both sides, if you want to present a good case.
The Americans gave YOU the $$ and the ammo and not the afghans directly...with the full knowledge of your greed...WHY ???...because they like you ??? ...or for the very reason you now cry about.
(4)
``The Taliban and Osama have been the initial targets of our American wrath but then “suddenly” out of the blue, terrorism raises its ugly head in both Israel and India? We are being made to believe that these two countries are the now somehow fighting the same war.``
somehow ???
Ras...underneath your words...you are a mini-Romair. Why is your government arresting all these PAKISTANIS (not kashmiris)???
We Indians have no doubt that only a swift kick on your backside will remove the cobwebs. Now that this huge nation has been stirred, it will quieten only after it tastes blood. War (limited or otherwise) will be initiated...at the right time. Don`t live in a fool`s paradise.
regards,
Some comments:
(1)
``That America would win the war against terrorism in Afghanistan was known by all except a misguided few in the region. Passions are no match for 21st century technology and know how. To believe that a group of fighters armed with rudimentary tools of war were going to win against a super-power, which had conventional weapons of mass destruction at its disposal, was to live in a fool’s paradise.``
Are you calling Romair a FOOL now? Where were you when Romair was pouring it on ??? Don`t recall anyone (except hamidm and tahmed) giving him a piece of their mind at that time.
(2)
``Why would Pakistanis pick this moment of all times to support terrorism in India, especially when the rest of the world including their own leadership is fighting a war against it? India in particular has threatened a military response against “terrorism” emanating from Pakistan. Nobody mentions the fact that Pakistan needs terrorism today like it needs a hole in its head.``
Good point. But this assumes there are no fools in Pakistan. Go to answer-1.
(3)
``And nobody mentions the fact that both the United States and Pakistan once had a relationship with the Taliban Regime in Afghanistan. They only mention Pakistan.``
Don`t see you complaining about all the billion$ afghan aid you skimmed...also the weaponry. Talk both sides, if you want to present a good case.
The Americans gave YOU the $$ and the ammo and not the afghans directly...with the full knowledge of your greed...WHY ???...because they like you ??? ...or for the very reason you now cry about.
(4)
``The Taliban and Osama have been the initial targets of our American wrath but then “suddenly” out of the blue, terrorism raises its ugly head in both Israel and India? We are being made to believe that these two countries are the now somehow fighting the same war.``
somehow ???
Ras...underneath your words...you are a mini-Romair. Why is your government arresting all these PAKISTANIS (not kashmiris)???
We Indians have no doubt that only a swift kick on your backside will remove the cobwebs. Now that this huge nation has been stirred, it will quieten only after it tastes blood. War (limited or otherwise) will be initiated...at the right time. Don`t live in a fool`s paradise.
regards,
#7 Posted by jay on January 1, 2001 12:50:32 pm
KNOW PAKISTAN
At last the true nature of pakistan is being brought to the day light. There is no more talk of kashmir, but the world is focussed on pak actions in closing down the terror organisations. There is no more interest in the freedom fighter crap, it is only a demand to close down laskars.
At last the world is realising the one memeber of the coalition against terror should be on the other side. It may be for the eastern alliance to finish up and iraqise the last terrorist country.
At last the true nature of pakistan is being brought to the day light. There is no more talk of kashmir, but the world is focussed on pak actions in closing down the terror organisations. There is no more interest in the freedom fighter crap, it is only a demand to close down laskars.
At last the world is realising the one memeber of the coalition against terror should be on the other side. It may be for the eastern alliance to finish up and iraqise the last terrorist country.
#8 Posted by ai on January 1, 2001 12:50:32 pm
War is too serious business to be left to
Generals - in our case to fat, overfed Generals
known as crore commanders and land grabbers.
These Generals want a conflict so that new
weapons will bought and fat commissions gained.
We want peace...
#10 Posted by wadera on January 1, 2001 2:34:34 pm
The reason why Pakistanis are so sceptical of the (`brilliantly` timed) attacks on India is because of the past history of India having manufactured such incidents. Recent attacks on Indians and Indian forces have been oh-so-conveniently timed, (During Clinton`s visit the Sikhs were massacred in Kashmir, when Powell visited the exchange of fire escalated in Kashmir as the Indian General in Kashmir threatened war, the mysterious `hijacking` which turned out to be a `miscommunication`, a `demonstration`, a `training exercise` (take your pick. Hell, even the poor 24 year old sod who took the `hijacking` call died mysteriously a few days later) - after the aircraft was refused entry to Pakistan. Every single one of these incidents being the worst thing for Pakistan at the time. A deaf, dumb and blind clam in a tank of chloroform could tell that these incidents were timed to hurt Pakistan. Regarding the Sikh massacre timed for Clinton`s visit even Eric Margolis has this to say in his column: ``... Indian forces disguised as Kashmiri mujihadin have even attacked Sikhs in an effort to turn them against Muslims.`` Add to that no concrete evidence, but a immediate series of arrests of the `culprits` who (as the British novelists say) promptly, and on cue, sing like a canary.
Sorry guys, it does not wash. The sheer convenience (for the Indians) of the various incidents boggles the mind. Be that as it may, we Pakistanis must look at ourselves to solve our own issues first. It is clear that the Indian government is trying to put the screws on the Pakistani Government and has `created` events in the past (documented) to pin the blame on Pakistan. In this we cannot expect any kind of help from the US.
The question for Pakistanis is how to defend ourselves from this kind of insinuation and attack. The first thing for us is to clean our own house: in other words we do not need extremists who attack civilians. We don`t need to support groups who are extremist. We do not need mullahs who preach violence on innocent people. When we do that we will be better able to advocate the cause of the Kashmiris. This pressure on Musharraf to crack down on the extremists (while seen by the Indians as Delhi`s show of force) must be seen as it really is: an acceleration of Musharraf`s original plan to put Pakistan on a path of tolerance and moderation. The pressure has only helped.
Secondly, we have no choice - NO choice - but to become self reliant industrially, economically and militarily. China has proved over the years to be the only reliable nation for Pakistan, because of our convergence of interests. In recent years the UAE, Jordan and now Iran and Turkey are becoming stronger partners. These are our potential and present partners. Pursuing a course of self reliance will give India pause for thought. Because Pakistan is perceived as being in a vulnerable position, India is going to do what it can to win from the situation - understandably so. We however can weather this quite well. The recent events have given Pakistan a new hope of turning things around. We do not have the luxury of having our debts forgiven - we actually have more debts now with all this aid. The only sensible approach is to use the economic aid to generate a stable economic base and an industrial/manufacturing base that will alleviate our aid burden. Fortunately we have men and women in the present government who have exacly this in mind. In five years time (assuming Musharraf is still in power and Benazir has not made a comeback) Pakistan will be a dynamic force in the subcontinent. The signs are already there.
Sorry guys, it does not wash. The sheer convenience (for the Indians) of the various incidents boggles the mind. Be that as it may, we Pakistanis must look at ourselves to solve our own issues first. It is clear that the Indian government is trying to put the screws on the Pakistani Government and has `created` events in the past (documented) to pin the blame on Pakistan. In this we cannot expect any kind of help from the US.
The question for Pakistanis is how to defend ourselves from this kind of insinuation and attack. The first thing for us is to clean our own house: in other words we do not need extremists who attack civilians. We don`t need to support groups who are extremist. We do not need mullahs who preach violence on innocent people. When we do that we will be better able to advocate the cause of the Kashmiris. This pressure on Musharraf to crack down on the extremists (while seen by the Indians as Delhi`s show of force) must be seen as it really is: an acceleration of Musharraf`s original plan to put Pakistan on a path of tolerance and moderation. The pressure has only helped.
Secondly, we have no choice - NO choice - but to become self reliant industrially, economically and militarily. China has proved over the years to be the only reliable nation for Pakistan, because of our convergence of interests. In recent years the UAE, Jordan and now Iran and Turkey are becoming stronger partners. These are our potential and present partners. Pursuing a course of self reliance will give India pause for thought. Because Pakistan is perceived as being in a vulnerable position, India is going to do what it can to win from the situation - understandably so. We however can weather this quite well. The recent events have given Pakistan a new hope of turning things around. We do not have the luxury of having our debts forgiven - we actually have more debts now with all this aid. The only sensible approach is to use the economic aid to generate a stable economic base and an industrial/manufacturing base that will alleviate our aid burden. Fortunately we have men and women in the present government who have exacly this in mind. In five years time (assuming Musharraf is still in power and Benazir has not made a comeback) Pakistan will be a dynamic force in the subcontinent. The signs are already there.
#11 Posted by ali1 on January 1, 2001 9:49:02 pm
Reply # 28 chandan
[``I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:
1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan.``]
I didn`t attend this rally, since I will only attend the one which will be held to celebrate India`s complete annhilation. However, from what I have heard about the vigil, this watery stool pigeon is lying. There were many more Indians than Pakistanis in this vigil.
Chandan, probably you were the only Indian in RSS shorts? Also, dou you think all Indians wear polyester dress pants with chappals?
[``But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it.``]
Everyone expects India behave cowardly because thats your heritage and your history.
[``I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected``]
It seems like you are actually looking forward to the holocaust. So what was the point in going to the ``peace`` vigil, you samosabottom?
[``So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.``]
Why haven`t your chicken hearted cowardly leaders started the ``final`` war yet? Don`t they care for their people`s prosperity? Or are you guys stockpiling on cowdung for the famine ahead?
[``I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:
1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan.``]
I didn`t attend this rally, since I will only attend the one which will be held to celebrate India`s complete annhilation. However, from what I have heard about the vigil, this watery stool pigeon is lying. There were many more Indians than Pakistanis in this vigil.
Chandan, probably you were the only Indian in RSS shorts? Also, dou you think all Indians wear polyester dress pants with chappals?
[``But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it.``]
Everyone expects India behave cowardly because thats your heritage and your history.
[``I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected``]
It seems like you are actually looking forward to the holocaust. So what was the point in going to the ``peace`` vigil, you samosabottom?
[``So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.``]
Why haven`t your chicken hearted cowardly leaders started the ``final`` war yet? Don`t they care for their people`s prosperity? Or are you guys stockpiling on cowdung for the famine ahead?
#12 Posted by sigalph235 on January 1, 2001 9:49:02 pm
re hamzad afaqui 31
``If India allowed a real national referendum, Kashmir would doubtless go with Pakistan, ...``
Dude, even Karachi will most likely vote to become independent than be with Pakistan, if given the choice. And you are talking about Jammu and Kashmir.
Even Pakistan knows this which is why every candidate for `Azad` KAshmir`s assembly has to swear an oath to uphold the state`s evetual accession to Pakistan. Clean up the sham act in `azad` KAshmir, then lecture to India abour her behavior.
``If India allowed a real national referendum, Kashmir would doubtless go with Pakistan, ...``
Dude, even Karachi will most likely vote to become independent than be with Pakistan, if given the choice. And you are talking about Jammu and Kashmir.
Even Pakistan knows this which is why every candidate for `Azad` KAshmir`s assembly has to swear an oath to uphold the state`s evetual accession to Pakistan. Clean up the sham act in `azad` KAshmir, then lecture to India abour her behavior.
#13 Posted by J Bodenheimer on January 1, 2001 9:49:02 pm
I do not agree with the writer. War is the only thing India wants now. It has given Pakistan many warnings but to no avail. Author is partial to Pakistan and sees nukes as a Muslim pride. He does not see the problem Pakistan has created for itself. If Kashmir is to be decided by the Kashmiris then Pakistan should get out. Pakistan should give NWFP to Pushtoons and get out of Kashmir. India can bifurcate Pakistan with surgical precision. Its three Strike Corps each containing three specialised Divisions have been mobilised. It means 150,000 troops in Strike Corps. This does not include 3 Mountain Divisions and about 10 Brigades strengths troops. It is not a show of force but is going to cost defence department at least 500 crores just for mobilisation.
India has bought arms worth 7000 crores in the last twelve months alone. Under pressure from Bush and UN things have started to move although slowly.
Pakistanis expelled Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan in 1947 so these communities do not have anybody to cry for. Muslims have relatives on both sides. So let them cry. It is their problem. Muslims had 53 years to bring about good governence and plenty of chances. India is not willing to give a last chance after its democratic pillar was attacked. Muslims are so cheap and Besharam, they still not recognise their role in world terrorism. India should expel theses guys from India. Let them go to Pakistan or Arabs whose religion they follow. Do not cry Pakistaaaan...
India has bought arms worth 7000 crores in the last twelve months alone. Under pressure from Bush and UN things have started to move although slowly.
Pakistanis expelled Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan in 1947 so these communities do not have anybody to cry for. Muslims have relatives on both sides. So let them cry. It is their problem. Muslims had 53 years to bring about good governence and plenty of chances. India is not willing to give a last chance after its democratic pillar was attacked. Muslims are so cheap and Besharam, they still not recognise their role in world terrorism. India should expel theses guys from India. Let them go to Pakistan or Arabs whose religion they follow. Do not cry Pakistaaaan...
#14 Posted by pmishra2 on January 1, 2001 9:49:02 pm
wadera #39:
Please do not quote the renowned india-hater
Eric Margolis in any discussion about the
sub-continent. Mr. Margolis is most famous
for his claim that the Air India Jet blown
up in 1984 was intentionally destroyed by the
Indian goverment. Three sikh extremists
are under trial for this crime
in a canadian court today.
By quoting him
you have either innocently or intentionally
lowered the quality of your message.
The NYTimes magazine had a good
article on the Sikh massacre which has
not as yet been definitively connected
to a specific terrorist group.
[begin quote]
Regarding the Sikh massacre timed for Clinton`s visit even Eric Margolis has this to say in his column: ``... Indian forces disguised as Kashmiri mujihadin have even attacked Sikhs in an effort to turn them against Muslims.
[end quote]
BTW, who do you think is behind the WTC
bombings? Or the suicide bombers in
Israel? I have a feeling I know the answer.
Please do not quote the renowned india-hater
Eric Margolis in any discussion about the
sub-continent. Mr. Margolis is most famous
for his claim that the Air India Jet blown
up in 1984 was intentionally destroyed by the
Indian goverment. Three sikh extremists
are under trial for this crime
in a canadian court today.
By quoting him
you have either innocently or intentionally
lowered the quality of your message.
The NYTimes magazine had a good
article on the Sikh massacre which has
not as yet been definitively connected
to a specific terrorist group.
[begin quote]
Regarding the Sikh massacre timed for Clinton`s visit even Eric Margolis has this to say in his column: ``... Indian forces disguised as Kashmiri mujihadin have even attacked Sikhs in an effort to turn them against Muslims.
[end quote]
BTW, who do you think is behind the WTC
bombings? Or the suicide bombers in
Israel? I have a feeling I know the answer.
#15 Posted by Yahuda Goldstee on January 1, 2001 9:49:02 pm
Cover Story:
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101020722/story.html
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101020722/story.html
#16 Posted by hamzadafaqui on January 2, 2001 2:53:16 am
For the 9/11 afficiondos---Good stuff
“Oh Lucy! – You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin To Do”
A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH - IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?
Bin Laden Met with the CIA in July and Walked Away
by
Michael C. Ruppert
[© COPYRIGHT 2001, All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. May be copied and distributed for non-profit purposes only.]
FTW, November 2, 2001 – 1200 PST [Revised, Nov 27, 2001] -- On October 31, the French daily Le Figaro dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official - presumably the Chief of Station. The meeting, held in bin Laden’s private suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was a wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and this year’s attack on the U.S.S. Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a 2000 intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving office in January. Yet on July 14th he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet and there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down.
In 1985 Oliver North – the only member of the Reagan-Bush years who doesn’t appear to have a hand in the current war - sent the Navy and commandos after terrorists on the cruise ship Achille Lauro. In his 1991 autobiography “Under Fire,” while describing terrorist Abu Abbas, North wrote, “I used to wonder: how many dead Americans will it take before we do something?” One could look at the number of Americans Osama bin Laden is alleged to have killed before September 11 and ask the same question.
It gets worse, much worse. A more complete timeline listing crucial events both before and after the September 11th suicide attacks, which have been blamed on bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests that there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their execution. It also makes clear that the events which have taken place since September 11th are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the attacks.
One wonders how these events could have been ignored by the major media or treated as isolated incidents. Failing that, how could skilled news agencies avoid being outraged, or at least even just a little suspicious?
1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 – “The Best Enemies Money Can Buy,” - http://www.copvcia.com/members/carlyle.html. ]
January, 2001 – The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to “back off” investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden’s relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, VA – right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996, frustrating efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast – Nov 7, 2001].
Feb 13, 2001 – UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale – while covering a trial of bin Laden’s Al Q’aeda followers - reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden’s encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.
May 2001 – Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001].
May, 2001 – Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour while CIA Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that while in Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as “an unusually long meeting,” also met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI. [Source The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001.]
June 2001 – German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.” [Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001.]
July, 2001 – Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia), meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A French book released in November, “Bin Laden - La Veriteì Interdite,” discloses that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source: The Guardian, September 22, 2001; the BBC, September 18, 2001.The Inter Press Service, Nov 16, 2001]........
Rest on:
http://www.copvcia.com/stories/nov_2001/lucy.html
“Oh Lucy! – You Gotta Lotta ‘Splainin To Do”
A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH - IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?
Bin Laden Met with the CIA in July and Walked Away
by
Michael C. Ruppert
[© COPYRIGHT 2001, All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. May be copied and distributed for non-profit purposes only.]
FTW, November 2, 2001 – 1200 PST [Revised, Nov 27, 2001] -- On October 31, the French daily Le Figaro dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official - presumably the Chief of Station. The meeting, held in bin Laden’s private suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was a wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and this year’s attack on the U.S.S. Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a 2000 intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving office in January. Yet on July 14th he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet and there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down.
In 1985 Oliver North – the only member of the Reagan-Bush years who doesn’t appear to have a hand in the current war - sent the Navy and commandos after terrorists on the cruise ship Achille Lauro. In his 1991 autobiography “Under Fire,” while describing terrorist Abu Abbas, North wrote, “I used to wonder: how many dead Americans will it take before we do something?” One could look at the number of Americans Osama bin Laden is alleged to have killed before September 11 and ask the same question.
It gets worse, much worse. A more complete timeline listing crucial events both before and after the September 11th suicide attacks, which have been blamed on bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests that there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their execution. It also makes clear that the events which have taken place since September 11th are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the attacks.
One wonders how these events could have been ignored by the major media or treated as isolated incidents. Failing that, how could skilled news agencies avoid being outraged, or at least even just a little suspicious?
1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 – “The Best Enemies Money Can Buy,” - http://www.copvcia.com/members/carlyle.html. ]
January, 2001 – The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to “back off” investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden’s relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, VA – right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996, frustrating efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast – Nov 7, 2001].
Feb 13, 2001 – UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale – while covering a trial of bin Laden’s Al Q’aeda followers - reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden’s encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.
May 2001 – Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001].
May, 2001 – Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour while CIA Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that while in Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as “an unusually long meeting,” also met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI. [Source The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001.]
June 2001 – German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.” [Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001.]
July, 2001 – Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia), meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A French book released in November, “Bin Laden - La Veriteì Interdite,” discloses that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source: The Guardian, September 22, 2001; the BBC, September 18, 2001.The Inter Press Service, Nov 16, 2001]........
Rest on:
http://www.copvcia.com/stories/nov_2001/lucy.html
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