Taliban : An Analysis

re: rajanjua # 271

From what I can tell, you and I belong to the same religion..and that religion is...respect the tradition you were born in (because it shows respect for your parents)...keep an open mind about things...don`t be suckered by any one who claims revelation...examine things for yourself...respect all those who are willing to respect you...and do what seems rational and proper to you.

I was particularly struck by your comment that Hinduism is just like any other religion...There is a lot of hocus pocus that the unexamined mind swallows in the name of Hinduism...some very evil stuff that should never have been there, but a ton of fabulous thinking...and principles (not instructions) for living.

The fact of the matter is that our religion is always the one WE create...WE pick our heroes...WE pick our devils and our dreams...We are our own Gurus, our own guides, our own maajhee.

Not an easy path, this. It requires a completely different way of thinking than when one is willing to let factors external to him/her lead them by the nose all their lives.

Regards.

Dear AnNy: You are darling. A special thanks for describing the latest cultural scene at Karachi. I never had any doubt about the talent we people have, it is just damn limited opportunities. On top of that Pakistani women are a potential untapped emerald mine. It is even more remarkable for women to suceed in our society against all odds. In USA and Britain, diaspora desi women are clearly showing more organizational and leadership talents than guys who are doing better in science and technology areas. I am trying to understand this peculiar differnce in talents between desi male and female. More importantly, can we exploit this natural selection to our advantage in Pakistan?

Please extend my regards to temporal. I was wondering about his absense form chowk. He dodged the Canadian winter. So far it is not terrible in NY. We had couple of snowfalls, actually some flurries last night too. After living for few years in a place, one gets used to it. For a newcomer from Pakistan, NY is pretty cold. Reminds me an Islamabadi joke. East Pakistan or Bangladesh is generally warmer than West Pakistan or Pakistan. A Bengali came to Islamabad for the first time in summer. Here is what he said while washing his hands in the sink:

shala, idhar ka gormi ka shordi aisa hey to shala shordi ka shordi kaisa ho ga (gormi = summer; shordi = winter).

Regards,

Sameer

anNy

Perhaps you are right, maybe it was ``nasty``.

hobbyty:

``that curious, how is it nasty?``

this apeared to me a very catty, auntyish thing to say: ``...his dignity cannot be impuned by me or anyone other than himself...``

sameersaab!

it is a very good thing to be a ghulam of oneself only, something dawning upon me slowly but surely..it is very freaky and scary breaking out of conditioning

khair, latest from karachi is that my cat died after being very ill for two weeks, yasmeen ismail the playright and actress died too, freezing weather and a most brilliant art workshop i had been attending the last 4 days..it was connducted by niilofer farrukh, art critic, curator, educationist..lots of lectures, slide shows, guest speakers..we had two archetects, dr.lashari and dr.asma (of the fake mummy thing..bbc just did this documentary on her findings and she lectures at the PNCA in a week or so..i dragged temporal with me the first day after which he too has been attending religiously).its a bunch of art critics, writers, poets, 5 students and some artists and dancers popping in for a word or two every few hours...yesterday we had a most brilliant. mindblowng lecture on pakistani art with accompanying slides..it was fascinating..so much we have that i had no idea about ..some incredible works coming out of our people..so much to be proud off...i was goosebumping all over towards the end...the place in itself was a beauty...PNCA converted from an oldhouse with a lovely little balcony overlooking jheel lake and some more forestish area where we`d have our lunch and t would smoke :)...

enough rambling..aap theek hain? wahan tau yahan sae bhi ziada thandee hogee

AnNy

``nasty``? - that curious, how is it nasty?

AnNy: tum yahaN back page per kya ker rahee ho. This is stupid man-to-man macho, jingo, ego, male hormones dictated and useless discourse. It is like two women fighting and cursing from their own balconis in Bihar Colony or Lalukhat. Nothing but a blood pressure enhancer for no reason.

Waisey such batao, didn`t you enjoy sprinkling of aromatic (or stinking) spice in between every post. What do you think of ghulam as pride; Bewi ka ghulam, amrika ka ghulam, angrez ka ghulam, allah ka ghuam, mohammed ka ghulam, ali ka shulam, sai baba ka ghulam. Don`t you think it is better to be ghulam of self?

So what is latest from Karachi?

re: prem

``The friend with whom I am staying these days is a strong believer in the special powers of Sai Baba.``

salam prem sahib,

imho, people should be allowed to believe in any hocus pocus they want to, but calling it divine and then imposing it on others for whatever reasons is evil. ayatollah hobbyty, ofcourse thinks otherwise - the great defender of revelation thinks its reasonable for the israelis to claim palestine since god gave it to them (it says so in the holy book - and god said to abraham - take this land .. for you are my chosen people).

as for sai baba - i don`t know much about him except for a very disturbing article i read about him in india today. i find hinduism to be quite fascinating. recently finished narayan`s translation of mahabharata, and was thinking about reading the rigveda (penguin`s abridged version was not enough). apart from the caste system (which i find quite disgusting and which I don`t think existed for the rigvedic aryans-sameer probably knows about this in detail), its just like any other religion.

best regards.

hobbyty:

that was rather nasty

anNy

Do not be distressed - SameerJb and I have a ideological dispute, not a personal dispute - we do not even know one another - but to the extent that it is ugly - I will withdraw, Shake SameerJb`s hand and assure him, the disagreement is ideological - his dignity cannot be impuned by me or anyone other than himself.

sameersaab, hobbyty:

gentlemen, excuse the butting in but this is getting terribly ugly :(

pls smile and make up

SameerJb

Communits international, Can Sameer come out and play? Yes, I only kick him around when he`s intellectually dishonest, isn`t he allowed to be honest? OK, I promise not to kick him around too much. What`s that? he`s doing his ``dialectic``? is that like home work?

Chuae Ki Maut or ``The cat`s meow`` - alright, run away, live to fight another another day; you will project your hate and irrationality - and I`ll bust you - with or without the scotch.

toodles.

Here is an example of irfan (cognitive) or ilham (revelation). The fire in ISlamabad`s 16 story building has not been extinguished yet, but:

[Responding to a question about the possible causes of the fire, SSP Nasir Khan Durrani said it was caused by short-circuiting and ruled out the possibility of sabotage. However, the Director-General Crisis Management Cell of the Interior Ministry, Brig Javed Cheema, standing besides the SSP, said it was too early to jump to any conclusions, and advised to wait for the cause till the fire was put out and an investigation made to ascertain it.]

SSP Nasir Khan Durrani, I suggest you claim your ancestory to the line of Abraham through some lost tribe of Israel ending up in NWFP.

Ayatollah Ghulam Ali Khali-kholi wants to keep playing on the basis of beating the khali-kholi canister and hoping to drown rationality in the noise that is music to his ears. If not for formality, it is quite boring to argue with intellectually barren whose only defense is, ``there are something only Allah knows better and we may never understand them``, as soon as you ask serious question of jinn power, god selecting Moses, David, Jesus and Mohammed from one bloodline and failure to rationalize the existence of god.

Ayatollah ghulam Ali Baqar-khani wants to see a ballgame between NY Yankees and Banori Town Junkees without considering the standards and cheering for Junkees through prayers.

Who has the time to go through five pages long mumbo jumbo about Soroush, when you can relax with a nice scotch after day job. Ayatollah G. A. Peeli-patti Muradabadi, most people have better ways to enjoy and enlighten than to read everything you or I write.

In the meantime, I wish you happy beating the empty canister. While doing it, please consider this: your house may not be the biggest on the block, your wife may not be the prettiest, your husband may not be the most handsome, your children may not be the smartest kids and above all, your religion may not be inferior comparatively or mostly unjustifiable through rationality due to poor reasoning.

See you next time on the front page!!!

SameerJB

Come out and play.

Prem

For your consideration :

From Hobbyty 235

“In any event, religious governments that are based on religious societies will be democratic only when they seek to combine the satisfaction of the Creator and that of the created; when they are true both to the religious and extra religious concerns; and when they equally respect pre religious and post religious reason and morality.

In the elusive and delicate balance between the two realms lies the rare elixir that the contemporary world, because of its neglect, finds unattainable or undesirable.``

“Few dispute, either doctrinally or sociologically, the reality and, indeed, desirability of objective secularization in the sense of a separation of church and state. Some thinkers have even gone so far as to claim that secularization is an integral part of the historical mission of religion. It is the scope and depth of subjective secularization or profanation that is in question. It is clear, for example, that the degree of profanation varies with locations, classes, genders, and cultures. There is, then, an asymmetry between secularization of structures and secularization of conscience. Although subjective secularization or profanation has succeeded in the West more than in any other part of the world, its advance, even in the West, has been checked -- even reversed -- in the recent past.”

Inevitably, the pioneers of reflexive revivalism, come under attack both by the guardians of rejectionist revivalism and the advocates of radical laic modernism. Neither of the last two groups believe in the possibility of secularization without profanation. Both consider profanation inevitable once secularization sets in. The rejectionists, fearing the demise of religion reject the project of secularization without profanation. The laic modernists for reasons of their own agree that the two should not be decoupled.”

Hobbyty 236

SameerJB

Reason and Revelation

“Science is most significant as one of the greatest spiritual adventures that man has yet known” – After all, central to most religions beliefs, that behind the world of appearances, the everyday world of “common sense” and ordinary human observation and experience, there is a reality of a different order which sustains that world and presents it to our senses. Now, it is precisely such a reality that science reveals – a world of unobservable entities and invisible forces, waves, cells, particles, all interlockingly organized and structured down to a deeper level than anything we have yet been able to penetrate.

Rationality and revelation are no longer complementary.

``That implies they once were, what`s changed?``

Understanding and knwoledge, ``mullah ghulam ullah``.

No, I won’t let you off just cause you throw a tantrum – explain yourself: and in particular, how you can maintain that “interpretation” is an invalid notion. There’s no running away – honesty or your ego? Which one will you choose? See paragraphs above.

“Reason is independent of probability.”

Either justify this statement or refute my response – Scientist? Don’t even begin to imagine you can obfuscate this issue by charging the Pakistan army and ISI with this or that. You are busted – all because you CHOOSE not to be honest.

Not so fast scientist – you’re not getting out of this by flattering me with religious titles.

``We have to admit that, strictly speaking, scientific laws cannot be proved and are therefore not certain. Even so, their degree of probability is raised by every confirming instance...``

“I suppose you have doubts with equal proabability about water molecules being a combination of two hydrogen and one oxygen atoms and the jinn power.”

Have you ever seen an atom? Didn`t you say we can`t believe in the invisible?? Genius??And What did you say about probability and Reason? You believe atoms and neutron, cosmic rays - yet you have never seen them - I don`t know if there is such a thing as Jinn power, but in principle if unseen phenomenon labeled scientific, natural, can be said to exist - Jinn power becomes impossible to refute - as a matter of fact, I would appreciate it if you would refute it. keep in mind that you are on record saying that empiricism is not science (interpolation and Extrapolation)

Which will bring us to an even more interesting question, junior woodchuck scientist, what are the criterion for the demarcation of science and non-science - If you choose you can deal with this in a separate post -

``According to allama ghulam mustafa, Darwin went to Galapagos Islands to observe after proposing his theory and publishing his book. Newton posposed gravity before observing apple falling from the tree and Mendel stated growing peas to observe after proposing Mendel`s laws of heredity. Wah wah, subhan allah.``

It is a historical fact that communists will change facts to fit their theory, but not accept that their theory needs to be reevaluated, even given up.

If I was to say to you ``Observe`` - the response would be ``Observe what?`` Obviously, the instruction, ``Observe``, would be absurd - ``observation`` is always selective, it needs a chosen object, a definite task, an interest, a point of view, and a problem. Observation itself presupposes a descriptive language, with property words, it presupposes interests, points of view and problems.

(Junior woodchuck scientist, you don`t just go into your lab and ``observe`` - there is an agreement on what it is that you will observe - you have trained for this field - presupposition- and have an interest in a particular given - presupposition - problem) The presupposition is theory, what you observe within the framework of this theory - will test the theory. This means that observations and observational statements of experimental results, are always interpretations of the facts observed that they are interpretations in the light of theories.

After all Darwin, did not just suddenly decide to get on a ship and go about the world ``observing`` - He had a training, a point of view, was already aware of other theories (presuppositions) and his observations allowed him to test these - the anomalies, allowed him to ``fashion`` his theories. To begin understanding, we must begin with asking, “why did Darwin choose to “observe” around the world?” “Did natural phenomena not exist in his country?” Was not Darwin investigating Natural phenomenon, including selection?

Newton did not just come up with his theories because he was bored or that they just happened to him (it`s curious that you still find the myth of his ``discovery`` valid, but not other ``myths`` - perhaps you are being ``selective``, based on your presuppositions)

Newton was already interested in subject, he was aware of the knowledge on the subject, he was aware of the problems or anomalies and he developed his theories in this light.

If you are a scientist you know that this is so. Therefore a difficult question: why would you persist in deliberately forwarding a position you know to be not valid? What`s more important, honesty or your ego?

“…Theory can not be fabricated out of the results of observation, but that it can only be invented” Einstein – “Logik der Forschung”

``Newton`s theories for hundreds of years were the back bone of Western civilization, not just in science, but manufacturing, indeed in culture - for hundreds of years these theories served mankind - till Einstein came along: Did Einstein not observe the same nature that Newton did, then why the different theory? Primarily because of the person of Einstein and because knowledge had evolved further and with new knowledge and with creative imagination, Einstein fashioned new hypothesis that was more resilient to testing, that accounted for Newton`s theories and which also made more accurate predictions and observations of nature. Even now Einstein`s theories are being challenged (``The End of Time``, Julian Barbour) yet, instruments such as satellites that whose functioning relies on the implications of Einstein`s theories still continue to function and serve us. What can we learn from this?

“Wrong again. Einstein did not prove Newton wrong, he advanced the knowledge with respect to relativity. Newtonian mode is still the basis of modern science as well as western civilization. The gravity, boiling point, measuring distances, input/ output ratios and calculation of force, in horse power or other units are all calculated withoout bringing relativity to it. The measure of force in camel power would also be according to Newton model in the future Islamic republics.”

Obfuscation simply will not work – Readers will note I did not assert that Einstein proved Newton wrong –- Einstein accounts for Newton’s theories and allows for more accurate statements about nature to be made. It’s fun busting you, it’s too easy. “Our non-scientist friends may asks, well how can this be? The answer is that we agree that for ``practical`` purposes, to hold these theories as more valid than not, until something better is fashioned, devised.”

“Bravo! Since revelation, according to you, is divine and never be entirely understood:”

Junior, woodchuck scientist, nothing can be ever completely known – it can only be better and better understood. This is the rationale for the evolution of knowledge. There is no man made theory that accounts for everything. As a matter fact, no such theory can ever exist.

“what the future holds for Islamic Republic of Pakistan based on derivation of revelation into state ideology and basis of laws? Isn`t this a solid case for separation of religion and state?”

The point of Sorush’s paper “Reason and Revelation” is to suggest that Reason can accommodate Revelation – not that Revelation is the exclusive source of ideology and laws. Soroush is suggesting that balance be achieved or movement towards achieving a balance between these two be considered. Specialization of the institutions of religion and governance is a given. Or in a simpler language, Separation of religion and government is a given – you again obfuscate – the bone of contention is the separation of religion from culture and conscience - Sumj ahie?

“According to Ayatoaah ghulam mujtaba, nobody should questin Osama Bin Laden because his twited belief in the strength of religion. Let USA, Osama, Pakistan, India act on the bais of each to his own even if your own undermines my own.”

That is why the Islam of Reason, Tolerance, Pluralism and Freedom of Conscience is the future home of ‘Liberals” (in the original sense of the word, read Hume, Hobbes and Locke) – Don’t agree with you, but will defend, with my life, your right to express your opinion. That ring a bell?



``Hinduism is considered successful by the virtue of surviving the onslaught for some seven centuries. It took much less than seven centuries for Muslims to make almost the entire population Muslim from Indonesia to Morocco, except in India. Islam even failed in coversion game in Punjab during the last 4 centuries when compared to conversion to Sikhism because major conversions to Islam took place prior to the rise of Sikhism. Given free hand and 1000+ years, any addiction could become universal.``

A Pakistani Hindutva fanatic? More power to you. By the way, have you ever attempted to become a citizen of India? Are you a Hindu or a Sikh? Or are they the same?

Don’t sad, Don’t be angry, be a smarty and join the Pakistani Hindutva party!

Sameer, it’s been fun – thanks for the entertainment.