Taliban : An Analysis

Saminashah 122

Hello Samina

Thanks for the invite to comment - give me some time and I`ll come back to it - is there a particular theme or item you want me to be aware of as i read the interview? Are you familiar with this author`s work? I`m unfortunately not.

Hamid 119,

A HONEST NON-MOHAJIR

That is the first ever post on chowk where some has owned up, rather portrayed the mechanisnm that creates a jihadist, with out mentioning US, saudi or poverty. It is the mind set, the TMNT mind set of the parents that creates the jihadist. It is the subtle messages that hamidm portrays, the little, k for kafir anologies, The stories of Ishfaq Ahmed that portrays a hindu prayer as setting fire to ones ar//se, that creates the TNT mind of hating people with other beliefs. It is this homegrown, prescholl conditioning that can explain the views of YLH, sarwari, anNy etc.

A COMPENDIUM of American THUGGERY & TERRORISM THE WORLD OVER.The only comprehensive resource you will ever need.

If this is not being taught as a compulsory subject in the schools of Grand Civilisations one risks becoming like the western baboons himself/herself.

Are you getting yourself innoculated from the disease called Westernitis?(aka SECULARISM)?

_________________________________________________

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/chronologyofterror.html

Chronology of AMERICAN STATE TERRORISM

``Few of us can easily surrender our belief that society must somehow make sense. The thought that The State has lost its mind and is punishing so many innocent people is intolerable. And so the evidence has to be internally denied.``

— Arthur Miller

playwright

Chronology of

American State Terrorism

U.S. State Department Policy Planning Study #23, 1948:

``Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity [U.S. military-economic supremacy].... To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming.... We should cease to talk about vague and...unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.``

— George Kennan

Director of Policy Planning

U.S. State Department

1948

The following collection of relatively brief entries is divided into three pages. Each page has the full list near the top so you can jump around from entry to entry between pages.

This list of nations represents literally millions of human beings all over the world who have been brutally murdered — directly by the United States military/government or by its obedient proxies. Huge though the list is, there is yet more to add. It does, however, contain the most well-known campaigns of American state terrorism, genocide and subversion — all of which are in the historical record for the whole world to see. God only knows what evil the U.S. government and military have committed that remains hidden.

And as long as the United States remains a military power the list of state terror victims will keep growing.

Page One:

Palestine

1948-Present

Colombia

1960s-Present

Iraq

1991-Present

Yugoslavia

1992-2000

Congo/Zaire

1961-Present

Cuba

1959-Present

Guatemala

1953-Present

El Salvador

1980-Present

East Timor

1975-1999

Haiti

1987-1994

Somalia

1993

Afghanistan

1979-1992

Nicaragua

1981-1990

Panama

1989 Page Two:

Libya

1981-1989

Iran

1988

Grenada

1979-1984

Greece

1964-1974

Chile

1964-1973

Costa Rica

Mid-1950s, 1970-71

Dominican Republic

1963-1966

Vietnam

1945-1974

Cambodia

1955-1973

Laos

1957-1973

Thailand

1965-1973

Italy

1947-1970s

Indonesia

1965

Brazil

1961-1964

British Guiana/Guyana

1953-1964

Iraq

1963 Page Three:

Soviet Union

1940s-1960s

Western Europe

1950s-1960s

Haiti

1959

Indonesia

1957-1958

Middle East

1956-1958

Iran

1953

Germany, Italy, Europe

1950s

Eastern Europe

1948-1956

Albania

1949-1953

Korea

1945-1953

Philippines

1945-1953

Greece

1947-1949

Marshall Islands

1946-1958

Italy

1947-1948

France

1947

China

1945-1951

Hiroshima & Nagasaki

August 1945

Japan, Germany, France

1942-1945

Around the world

1900-1930s

Philippines

1899-1902

America and Africa

1607-1890

1948 — Present

American/Israeli State Terrorism of the Palestinian People

Estimated civilian deaths: 100,000 Palestinian people

From the very beginning of the Zionist State of Israel in 1948, the racist Israelis have mass-murdered and terrorized the Palestinian people.

One of the earliest and most notorious incidents of Israeli terrorism was the Deir Yassin massacre in April, 1948. 250 Palestinian men, women and children were murdered in cold blood by Menachem Begin`s Zionist ``Irgun`` group as it went from house to house seeking to drive all Palestinians out of their ancient homeland. It hasn`t gotten any better since then.

Besides murdering women and children, Israelis routinely torture Palestinian prisoners in jail. And almost all of it has been kept hidden by the mainstream American mass-media for 53 years.

Just to give you another example of who the Israelis really are: in 1946, Menachem Begin`s terrorist organization blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, murdering British nurses, in order to drive the British out of Palestine. Israeli society later rewarded Menachem Begin by electing him Prime Minister.

And another example: on June 8, 1967 the armed forces of Israel killed 34 U.S. Navy sailors during a sustained air and sea attack on the USS Liberty.

In 1982 the Israelis invaded Lebanon and murdered 17,500 people. During the Israeli occupation, Ariel Sharon was the primary authority behind the massacres at the Shatilla and Sabra refugee camps in which over 1000 helpless Palestinian children, women and civilian men were murdered in cold blood by Lebanese Christians. And of course Ariel Sharon is now the Israeli Prime Minister. Israelis like having bloodthirsty war criminals as Prime Ministers.

The United States government gives billions of your tax dollars to the Israelis every year. And the U.S. government never pays people to do things it doesn`t want done. Israeli state terrorism is essentially American state terrorism.



For MORE FASCINATING STUFF:Please access,

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html

re: dost-mittar

``...Sometimes, it takes an outsider to notice something that we take for granted (for example people in India squatting in the fields to relieve themselves!)...``

I felt the same way when I first encountered English-medium Pakistani dailies on the Web. My first `cultural shock` occurred when I came across Op/Ed articles on topics such as Eid, Ramzan, and parallels between what happened in the Prophet`s life and modern day events, in the editorial pages of respected Pakistani dailies. If memory serves me right (and sometimes it doesn`t), I don`t think that one would find similar Op/Ed pieces in Indian newspapers (e.g. invoking the righteousness of Krishna`s message to Arjun, etc.) like the Times of India, The Hindu, etc.

I find it dfficult to discard the notion that this not-so-subtle invocation of faith in the media does have the effect of reinforcing scripture as the fountain of law, and makes it that much harder to counter it in political matters. To be fair, many secular institutions in India, too, have their mottos (vision statements, if you will) couched in religious terms. Thus, for example, many Indian Army units have their battle cries that have religious undertones (e.g. Maratha Light Infantry`s `Bol Shri Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Ki Jai` or Garwhal Rifles` `Badri Vishal Lal Ki Jai` [Victory to the Great Lord Badri Nath], J&K Rifles` `Durga Mata Ki Jai`, etc.)

Reply #: 96

sigalph235re fatimah #88

``YLH has asid it well. Bernard Lewis is one of the most Arabophile experts of the Middle East. ``

.....................

YOU SILLY SGLPH,& HYPOCRITE YLH

WHY SHOULD I CARE IF BERNARD IS ARABO PHILE?

Are you an ARAB ?

Fools still slave of Arab culture rather than being muslim & not confusing Islam as ARABISM.

CANT YOU HEAR ARABISM IS NOT ISLAM.!You educated fools falling for the wrong symbols.

I know bengali & Arabic but i am neither AND PROUD OF IT.

Reading exchange of views between Syed Ahmed and sac and also hobbyty’s response, it appears that terms Islamists, Islamic fundamentalists and fanatics have been used interchangeably. To me, Islamists are different than Islamic fundamentalist fanatic – nutcases. In my article, I am very critical of nutcases and in disagreement with Islamists. Both Taliban and Khmer Rouge represented nutcases and ended up causing damage to their own mother ideologies of Islam and Communism, respectively.

Islamic fundamentalist fanatics usually have much less education in liberal and secular fields, more often exclusively trained at madrassahs, unable to adjust to any society that does not fit their narrowly defined ideology, adamant in literal interpretation of religious literature as opposed to “reflection of a particular time period and culture”. They are misfits in modern dynamic society due to their principles fixated at revelation-based society and culture. The choicest method to achieving their ends is armed struggle –jihad, because it does not require consensus from the enemy in addition to providing a much desired path for death. Funny looking headgear, baggy garments and beards are preferred by this group even in cultures that is not overly bearded.

Islamists are a very broad group that includes people from fundamentalists-Islamists to liberal-Islamists 9 I know people who are very modern in outlook and do not mind discussing virtues of Islamic model while imbibing scotch whisky. To them dietary laws and many social and moral Islamic codes are minor issues. They believe in identifying with only the larger issues). The common feature of Islamists is a preference of Islamic over secular, a disagreement with the principle of separation of religion and state and in the case of Pakistan, they believe in the superiority of the hypothesis of Islamic welfare republic over any other theory and fortify their belief as well as public support by taking a free ride on the bandwagon of Two Nation Theory of pre-independence history. Iqbal, Ali Shariati, Jalal Uddin Afghani were Islamists and I believe that Maudoodi and Hasan Al- Banna were also more of Islamists than fundamentalists.

I totally disagree with hobbyty reference to Sahriati and other Islamist scholars as a rebuttal to me stating that Islamic model adopted ny Taliban lacked intellectual backing. The philosophies of Gramsci, fabian sicialists or Jean Paul Sarte ought not to be used to justify Stalinist Enver Hoxha in Albania or Maoist Pol Pot is Khmer Rouge. Similarly Islamic nutcases should not be defended by the writings of just any Islamists.

The secular and liberal left in Pakistan did not have honest and intellectual leadership. Most of them were hypocrites. The lack of regular elections in Pakistan exacerbated this trend. The second level leadership and supporters were mostly those who wanted to oppose religious right more than anything else. They also included pot-smokers etc. Left in Pakistan has to make the case for secularism against much publicized and popularized TNT – not an easy task. The people who actually helped Pakistan most were bureaucrats of Indian Civil Service of Raj era. They were talented, honest and helped Pakistan survive – much more than religion, TNT, politicians, military or current corrupt and inept bureaucracy.

The absence of checks and balances is hallmark of Islamists as well as fanatics. If proper checks and balances have existed in Pakistan, the Islamists and fanatics would have reduced to more of a nuisance just like communists still win somewhere around 10 percent of popular votes in France, Italy and Spain but have learned to respect checks and balances by enacting laws through democratic process.

I believe that regular elections in Pakistan would help move many of the Islamists away from fanatical fundamentalists. The Islamists would do what Syed Ahmed would like them to do - to win popular support. Above all, good relations with India and allowing native cultures to grow will go a much longer way in this regard.

Pardon me now because I have to go to the bathroom after going through Sahih Bukhari to find out the Islamic way of you-know-what (number 1 only or number 1 and 2 or number 2 only? Number 3 not allowed – it weakens eyesight?)

re hamzad afaqui

``...vicariously enjoy their wives,mothers & daughters` doubling as no-fee hookers & themselves acting as no-load pimps.``

Talking about yourself again, eh? If anything that line reflects what you think of YOUR female relatives.

dost-mittar #111 I dont think it is correct to generalize and say that islamists were native to pakistan and modernists came from across the border. the spiritual leader of the islamists - maudoodi - came to pakistan from india a few years after pakistan was formed. by dragging religion into politics (and by thus seeking unsuccessfully to gain political power himself), he introduced islamism in pakistan. his books were translated into arabic and influenced hasan sabah, who then dragged religion into politics there as well by founding the egyptian muslim brotherhood. karachi, where muhajirs are concentrated, has been a key bastion of the islamists.

there is no doubt that pakistan is richer as a result of gaining the muhajirs after partition (just as it is poorer as a result of losing the hindus and sikhs, but that is another story). however, among the rest of the pakistanis, the forces of modernism are alive and well, i am glad to report.

Some more ``good`` news for those who gloat about their adultery,fornication,drinking,and vicariously enjoy their wives,mothers & daughters` doubling as no-fee hookers & themselves acting as no-load pimps.

``The aroma of kabaab is no afar

Oh where is the sizzle,burn,& char``

__________________________________________________

Earth’s fastest growing religion, with six million followers in the U.S. alone, reveals striking diversity.

Get a taste of what awaits you in print from this compelling excerpt.

Borne aloft five times a day, from Shanghai to Chicago, Jakarta to Timbuktu, the music of Islam’s call to prayer stirs the soul of devout Muslims everywhere. Whether cast from metal loudspeakers over teeming city streets or lifted as the murmured song of camel drivers kneeling in the sand, it begins with the same Arabic phrase Muslims have used for nearly 1,400 years, Islam’s melodic paean to the Creator.

“Allah . . . u akbar,” the faithful sing out.

“Allahhhhh . . . u akbar!—God is great!”

Some 1.3 billion human beings—one person in five—heed Islam’s call in the modern world, embracing the religion at a rate that makes it the fastest growing on Earth, with 80 percent of believers now outside the Arab world. For these people Islam is an intimate personal connection to the same God worshiped by Jews and Christians, a source of strength and hope in a troubled world.

The term itself, Islam, is an Arabic word meaning “submission to God,” with its etymological roots firmly planted in salam, or peace. That may come as a surprise to many non-Muslims, whose perceptions of the faith have been skewed by terrorists, many from the Middle East, whose unspeakable acts in the name of Islam have been condemned by leaders everywhere.

“Peace is the essence of Islam,” says Prince El Hassan bin Talal of Jordan, brother of the late King Hussein and a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. Prince El Hassan helps lead the World Conference on Religion and Peace and spends much of his energy building bridges of understanding between the Muslim world and the West. “Respecting the sanctity of life is the cornerstone of our faith,” he says, “and of all great faiths.”

Get the whole story in the pages of National Geographic magazine.

Sameer JB, Farzana, Hobbyty, Sadna, Chowkies,

Here are some excerpts from an interview with the Ethiopian writer Nega Mezlekia, who has recently published a book entitled The God Who Begat a Jackal. I found it in our latest issue of Poets and Writers; you may be able to locate the full text at www.pw.org/mag. What follows are a few questions and answers:

Q: The time of your novel seemed a very chaotic time. There wasn`t a center.

Mezlekia: Yes, and if you went a century or two prior to that it was even worse, because that`s when that particular region was very much affected by the Islamic crusades. One of the reasons I wrote this book was the resurgence of that relgious fanaticism. That`s not just the Muslims-its the Christians as well. When I was growing up, communism was like religion to us. People were dying for it. It was the highest cause. Since the collapse of communism, religion has filled in that void. Now people are looking to religion for solutions for everyday problems. The type of fanaticism I hadn`t seen when I was growing up in Ethiopia is taking hold. I decided to base The God Who Begat a Jackal on the European Crusades to show the downside of fanaticism. So people could see what to expect if these things are unchecked.

Q:I wonder if you could talk a little bit about a writer`s responsibility to his subject.

M: Writing shouldn`t be entertaining only. It should be informative as well. Particularly for a person like me who has lived under very, very terrible regimes, he or she has an obligation to bring this to light. And I can say with a very high degree of certainty that there will be a flare up of huge conflict in sub-Sahara Africa and part of the Middle East, and what have you within the next decade or so, something that hasn`t been seen for generations. And this is awful. And this can be checked by introducing a number of measures...the West should recognize there is a problem and should try and address these issues, help that part of the world address these issues.

Q: The context of Sept. 11....

M:...Human beings really have to undergo some crisis before we learn, before we pick up some lessons you know. It happened to me. I believed in communism very, very...I can`t even put into words how much I believed in it. But now looking back, I say, What folly it was. Communism sounded very well in books. But it was something you couldn`t implement in society because the human element was entirely missing. Because there`s the human element, there`s ambition, individualism, what have you. That was never addressed in communist literature or ideology. Now religious fundamentalism has its roots once again in local problems, because when individuals have certain problems and the govt. is not in the position to address those problems, they resort to whats accessible to them. And that happens to be the relgious institutions. Religious fanatics exploit that issue. Now we need to bring this out, first as a form of language, as entertaining and as informative as possible. I just want to open their eyes....

Q: Do you think poverty fuels religious fanaticism?

M: Yes, it does, and not just poverty, but also injustice in the form of prejudice against different ethnic groups. Whoever is in power is always advancing his agenda. In that part of the world, even with a form of democracy-as you can see for example now in Kenya-the ones in power immediately start putting their own ethnic groups in higher places, and also people of their own faith, even though there have been Muslims and Christians in that part of the world for centuries. In Ethiopia, the ones in power have always been Christians. Now about forty percent of the population subscribes to Islam. So theres poverty and theres also social injustice.Getting rid of poverty is a huge order, but that`s one way of tackling this fundamentalism. That`s one of the fronts. But the other one is the way the government is run. How could you claim to represent, lets say, 60 million people in Ethiopia, for example, while about 40 percent of that popualtion is not represented in high places?....When I was growing up I never saw any of the religious fundamentalism I hear about nowadays. Women covering their faces! You would see some Arab women back then who covered their faces, but those were married women, and it was more tradition than faith. Nowadays there is so much uncertainty. Since the collapse of communism. So people want something to hang on to.

any thoughts?

Some more eyeopeners for the US--the THUGS,lovers.

tahmad:Thugs & babboons cannot be called by any other names.To do so would be to compromise credibility,hiding the truth,and disservice to humanity.

_________________________________________________

Black Hawk Down`` – Hollywood drags bloody corpse of truth across movie screens

By Larry Chin

January 3, 2002 -- True to its post-9/11 government-sanctioned role as US war propaganda headquarters, Hollywood has released ``Black Hawk Down,`` a fictionalized account of the tragic 1993 US raid in Somalia. The Pentagon assisted with the production, pleased for an opportunity to ``set the record straight.`` The film is a lie that compounds the original lie that was the operation itself.

Somalia: the facts

According to the myth, the Somalia operation of 1993 was a humanitarian mission, and a shining example of New World Order morality and altruism. In fact, US and UN troops waged an undeclared war against an Islamic African populace that was hostile to foreign interests.

Also contrary to the legend, the 1993 Somalia raid was not a ``Clinton foreign policy bungle.`` In fact, the incoming Clinton administration inherited an operation that was already in full swing -- planned and begun by outgoing President George Herbert Walker Bush, spearheaded by deputy national security adviser Jonathan Howe (who remained in charge of the UN operation after Clinton took office), and approved by Colin Powell, then head of the Joint Chiefs.

The operation had nothing to do with humanitarianism or Africa-love on the part of Bush or Clinton. Several US oil companies, including Conoco, Amoco, Chevron and Phillips were positioned to exploit Somalia`s rich oil reserves. The companies had secured billion-dollar concessions to explore and drill large portions of the Somali countryside during the reign of pro-US President Mohamed Siad Barre. (In fact, Conoco`s Mogadishu office housed the US embassy and military headquarters.) A ``secure`` Somalia also provided the West with strategic location on the coast of Arabian Sea.

UN military became necessary when Barre was overthrown by warlord Mohammed Farrah Aidid, suddenly rendering Somalia inhospitable to US corporate interests.

Although the pretext for the mission was to safeguard food shipments, and stop the ``evil Aidid`` from stealing the food, the true UN goal was to remove Aidid from the political equation, and form a pro-Western coalition government out of the nation`s warring clans. The US operation was met with ``surprisingly fierce resistance`` -- surprising to US officials who underestimated Somalian resolve, and even more surprising to US troops who were victims and pawns of UN policy makers.

The highly documented series by Mark Bowden of the Philadelphia Inquirer on which the film is based , focuses on the participants, and the ``untenable`` situation in which troops were placed. But even Bowden`s gung-ho account makes no bones about provocative American attacks that ultimately led to the decisive defeat in Mogadishu.

Bowden writes: ``Task Force Ranger was not in Mogadishu to feed the hungry. Over six weeks, from late August to Oct. 3, it conducted six missions, raiding locations where either Aidid or his lieutenants were believed to be meeting. The mission that resulted in the Battle of Mogadishu came less than three months after a surprise missile attack by U.S. helicopters (acting on behalf of the UN) on a meeting of Aidid clansmen. Prompted by a Somalian ambush on June 5 that killed more than 20 Pakistani soldiers, the missile attack killed 50 to 70 clan elders and intellectuals, many of them moderates seeking to reach a peaceful settlement with the United Nations. After that July 12 helicopter attack, Aidid`s clan was officially at war with America -- a fact many Americans never realized.``

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Somalis were killed in the course of US incursions that took place over three months. In his book The New Military Humanism, Noam Chomsky cites other under-reported facts. ``In October 1993, criminal incompetence by the US military led to the slaughter of 1,000 Somalis by American firepower.`` Chomsky writes. ``The official estimate was 6-10,000 Somali casualties in the summer of 1993 alone, two-thirds women and children. Marine Lt. Gen. Anthony Zinni, who commanded the operation, informed the press that `I`m not counting bodies . . . I`m not interested.` Specific war crimes of US forces included direct military attacks on a hospital and on civilian gatherings. Other Western armies were implicated in serious crimes as well. Some of these were revealed at an official Canadian inquiry, not duplicated by the US or other governments.``

Bowden`s more forgiving account does not contradict Chomsky`s in this regard:

``Official U.S. estimates of Somalian casualties at the time numbered 350 dead and 500 injured. Somalian clan leaders made claims of more than 1,000 deaths. The United Nations placed the number of dead at ``between 300 to 500.`` Doctors and intellectuals in Mogadishu not aligned with the feuding clans say that 500 dead is probably accurate.

The attack on Mogadishu was particularly vicious. Quoting Bowden: ``The Task Force Ranger commander, Maj. Gen. William F. Garrison, testifying before the Senate, said that if his men had put any more ammunition into the city `we would have sunk it.` Most soldiers interviewed said that through most of the fight they fired on crowds and eventually at anyone and anything they saw.``

After 18 US Special Forces soldiers were killed in the final Mogadishu firefight, which included the downing of a US helicopter, television screens filled with the scene of a dead US soldier being dragged through the streets by jubilant Somalis. Clinton immediately called off the operation. US forces left Somalia in disgrace. Some 19,000 UN troops remained for a short period, but eventually left in futility.

The Somalia defeat elicited howls of protest and rage from the military brass, congressional hawks, and right-wing provocateurs itching for an excuse to declare political war on the ``liberal`` Clinton administration.

The ``Somalia syndrome`` would dog Clinton throughout his presidency, and mar every military mission during his tenure.

Today, as right-wing extremist George W. Bush occupies the White House, surrounded by his father`s operatives, and many of the architects of the original raid, military fanaticism is all the rage. A global war ``without end`` has just begun.

What a perfect moment to ``clean up`` the past.

Hollywood to the rescue

In promoting the film, producer Jerry Bruckheimer (who rewrote another humiliating episode of US military history with ``Pearl Harbor``) is seeking to convince Americans that the Somalia operation was ``not America`s darkest hour, but America`s brightest hour;`` that a bungled imperialist intervention was a noble incident of grand moral magnificence.

CNN film reviewer Paul Tatara describes ``Black Hawk Down`` as ``pound for pound, one of the most violent films ever released by a major studio,`` from ``two of the most pandering, tactless filmmakers in Hollywood history (Jerry Bruckheimer and Ridley Scott)`` who are attempting to ``teach us about honor among soldiers.``

More important are the film`s true subtexts, and the likely emotional reaction of viewers.

What viewers see is ``brave and innocent young American boys`` getting shot at and killed for ``no reason`` by ``crazy black Islamists`` that the Americans are ``just trying to help.`` (Subtext one: America is good, and it is impossible to understand why ``they hate us.`` Subtext two: ``Those damned ungrateful foreigners.`` Subtext three: ``Those damned blacks.`` Subtext four: ``Kill Arabs.``)

What viewers will remember is a line spoken by one of the ``brave soldiers`` about how, in the heat of combat, ``politics goes out the window.`` (Subtext one: there is no need for thought; shoot first, talk later. Subtext two: it is right to abandon one`s sanity, morality and ethics when faced with chaos. Subtext three: when the Twin Towers went down on 9/11, America was right in embracing radical militarism and extreme violence, throwing all else ``out the window.``)

In the currently lethal political climate, in which testosterone rage, mob mentality, and love of war pass for normal behavior (while reason, critical thinking, and tolerance are considered treasonous), ``Black Hawk Down`` will appeal to the most violent elements of American society. Many who have seen the film report leaving the theater feeling angry, itching to ``kick some ass.`` In short, the film is dangerous. And those who ``love`` it are dangerous.

Considering the fact that Somalia is one of the targets in the next phase of the Bush administration`s ``war on terrorism,`` the timing of the film is no coincidence.

As Herbert London of the Hudson Institute said of ``Black Hawk Down,`` ``I would never deny the importance of heroism in battle, but just as we should recognize and honor heroes, we should also respect the truthfulness of the events surrounding their heroic acts. In the case of `Black Hawk Down,` we get a lot of the former and almost nothing of the latter.``

Larry Chin is a freelance journalist.

re: drumz

{Can someone explain 2 me why the hell muslim`s eat dates???}

probably the same reason why anNy wants to ride around town on a camel

dost mittar #111

......musharraf, Muslim Students Association (MSA) and other not so innocent islam mongers .......

`` Almost all modernist columnists (exceptions Ayaz Amir, Mazdak) never fail to invoke the Quran or Hadis/hadith to support their Liberal positions (the latest example was Musharraf quoting the Prophet`s treaty with the Meccans to justify his about-turn on Talebans)``

...... where is the silent majority that we keep on hearing about? .... most pakistanis, specially those living in the west, are guilty of perpetuating and sustaining the most virile form of islamism - the kind that pretends to be different from the taliban strain, yet is more deadly and is slowly spreading its poison .......it starts in the home with people telling their kids it is wrong to eat with the left hand, constantly telling them how arabia was a horrible place to live before gabriel appeared on the scene, segregating women from men and invoking allah and his prophet at the drop of a hat .....the kids pick up more of this nonsense at sunday schools where they learn crazy stuff like macdonalds is mukrooh, burger-king is haram and the back street boys are na-mehram and therefore to be avoided ..... drivel !......then these kids go to college and sign up with obscurantist organizations like the muslim students association which turn them into moon-faced nuns and misogynist young men unsure of their sexuality and candidates for the next jihad ...... parents, who spent a fortune on private schools and piano lessons, are distraught when their daughters don the hijab, put on fifty pounds and drop out of pre-med to take up mid-eastern studies ......since all the boys are brothers and all the girls are sisters everyone is worried about incest and no one is getting married ...... brides and bridegrooms are imported to perpetuate this madness ........

....... no one has the courage to stand up to those who push this agenda for fear of being labelled apostates or heretics ...... or is it because all of us have been infected ? ..... maybe the silent majority does not exist and therefore there will be no reprieve, no deliverance, no redemption ....

.....let`s start by telling our kids that if they join the msa, hare-krishna, the taliban or any other cult they are on their own .....flip haram burgers, for all we care !

Hamid

re: #107

You`ve nailed it as usual; Arab colonialism would be an interesting topic of self inquiry for Pakistanis. I trace all this to the last ten years, when the US dropped Pakistan from its dance card. Pakistan`s identity crisis seems many pronged, but, particular in the way of developing Asian Islamic countries.

Had you read the Sunday NYTimes last week? Barbara Crossette, not my favorite writer, wrote a compelling article on the effects of Wahabi/Saudi money on local Muslim architecture in South and East Asia. Having been permanently igged by my Phupi Jan taking away my agarbati, I have to say, the article further got my goat.

On a completely different topic; whats up with Argentina? Werent they the poster country for the IMF economic model? Didn`t they follow IMF instructions exactly? So what happened?

regards

Hamidm 107

``something terrible has happened to pakistan in the last ten years - we have lost our way and common sense in the pursuit of allah .... i, like all other pakistanis, had no idea what hijab was``

How sad for you, simpleton non-mohajir hamid. It did not happen in the last ten years, it was building up over the last forty years. In the pre-partition india, there was an intermingling of various people that kept the virulence of islam under check, as it is happening in indian now.

When pakistan was created under the TNt doctrine and the hindus were eliminated from your midst, it was time for the virulence to surface as it is in saudi and the anti-virulane of turkey.

It is the mohajirs who cornered the power that instituted the jihadic education, the madrassas are the schools of TNT and took forty years for the monstrouis manifestations of TNT to come to the public.

Pakistan at least has a clear future and probably mushy has a few, not really choice, but could be that of bhutto, or that of zia, or that of liquat khan. May be mushy will follow that of the earlier general.

Then pakistan will be iraquised, and after that all pakistanis will live in peace. The world has realised that iraquisation is a requirement at jihadic frontiers.

Hamid, just remeber, there is no moderate islamic state in the world. and pakistan can be no exception.

What ever is in pakistan today, any semblance of moderation is due to the cultural momentum when it was part of india. What ever moderation pakistan has today is due to the legacy of the hindu influence.

By the way, what is wrong with taliban, what is wrong with jihadic pakistan. Time to accept the reality, what is round the corner.

regards

jay

Saudi Imperialism’s impact on Pakistan.

An op-ed article – The Saudi Threat – in Wall Street Journal (Jan 4) – might provide some clues.

Some excerpts:

“Pakistan, seduced by Saudi money, has sown the wind and is reaping the whirlwind. Saudi religious schools, mosques and bribes encouraged fundamentalist movements that have supported terror against the US, India and the more liberal elements in Pakistani society. The Saudi vision of anti-western, crusading Islam essentially took over Pakistan’s intelligence services and infiltrated the military, with the result that Pakistan support not only for the Taliban, but for Al-Qaeda, plunged the world toward sept 11. Finally Saudis were essential sponsors of Pakistan’s push to develop “Islamic’ nuclear weapons, although the US government ignored the evidence”.

“… but we will not get close to the heart of the matter until we face up to the hateful, medieval, murderous nature of the Saudi version of Islam. Anti-women, anti-meritocratic, anti-education in any meaningful, liberating sense, racist and profoundly anti-freedom, Saudi sponsored religious extremism, funded by all the drivers of those over-sized SUVs on the American roads, is the most destructive vision in the world today.”

So, my Pakistani liberal friends, please have mercy on your intolerant Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Shia/Ahmdia hating brothers. Poor guys are just brainwashed by Saudi influence on your institutions.