The Significant Unit of War

Re: Shankar

``...This (Kashmir) is going to haunt India for the rest of history...``

Yes indeed -- it will, and it already is. What is even more haunting is what granting `self-determination` on the basis of religion, and religion alone. Conceding that will haunt India like nothing else, and give a shot in the arm to the RSS and their compatriots. Will you find another Gandhi to control them?

Despite all that has happened in Kashmir, how many refugees have crossed across the border to Pakistan in over ten years? Less than 10,000. How many did the same in Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnya? In the hundreds of thousands, millions. Heck, nearly 20,000 fled from Bangladesh to India in the weeks after the election of Khaleda Zia. This is an important test - much like the street price of crack to determine the efficacy of drug interdiction measures is.

Lastly, remember what Gen. Sherman did to Atlanta in the Civil War. Nothing of the sort has happened in Kashmir. Did the South and the North reconcile? Did Punjab reconcile with the `rest of India`? Did the Tamil separatists of the 60s? the Gurkha National Liberation Front? the All Assam Students Union? The Mizo National Front? the list could on...

Re: YLH

I read clause 7 -- it does not even use the word `temporary`. All it says it that this clause will not affect future relations with India under the (yet to be drafted) Constitution of India.

Rsridhar, Romair, prem

Re Shankar

This person, Shankar, has a real problem - he is brutally honest -

Even a person as mindles as me, as recognized his disablity.

re:Reply #: 368

Romair,

I seem to be chasing your post. I hope you do not mind.

Yes, Shanker is making all the right noices that pleases you and other Pakistanis. Let it also go on record that i am for peace in Kashmir as per the wishes of Kashmiris. In what form that will come will have to be decided. But i put a rider which is: the violence must end from both sides viz from the militants and from the Indian army. Since Army came to Kashmir as a reaction to militancy in the valley, one hopes that once this violence abates, army will leave the state and let Kashmiris decide their own fate.

Self-determination conjures up an image of seperation of the state from the Indian Union. Best way would be for each side (Indian and Pakistani Kashmir)to put democratic govts in place and prepare public opinion for their ultimate merger. Nothing done in haste is likely to succeed. I fear BJP has different ideas. That is why it should never get an absolute majority in the parliament. Its coalition party members keep its fundamentalist agenda in check.

I too like you dream of a common South Asian market. Countries in South Asia may remain as distinct political entities but we can have free borders, free exchange of artists, intelligenctia, students etc. Sky is the limit. Imagine Pakisanis working in Bangalore or a Delhitie working in Lahore. How much goodwill this will generate.

Sridhar

shankar #365: Thank God someone from India has spoken. More power to you. I take back my words on the Sopranos. You need to watch it more often.

Everything you have stated is dead on target. May the guiding light of everyone be human rights and morality, and not politics, religion, or forced geographical statehood.

I hope to see a South Asia, like a European Union, someday. Where every group that wants geographical and political independence is allowed to do so peacefully, and where every group voluntarily becomes a part of one giant economic union, with limited or no visas, and maximum trade.

It is much easier for me to go to Dhaka now and open up an office there, then it would have been in 71, when it was a part of Pakistan. So why should I complalin about an independent Bangladesh. Similarly, is it easier for an Indian to visit an independent Kashmir as a tourist, or is it easier for India to visit Kashmir right now?

The Western world gave up on forced geographic unions after WWII. Just like communism, fascism, permanent dictatorships, 8-track tapes, and Betamax video cassettes, it is a failed concept. It is about time South Asians realized it. What catastrophe will befall India, if it lets go of a valley which is less than a few thousand square miles. Rest assured, India will not fall apart.

Musharraf has literally stuck his neck deep into the guillotine to create peace in South Asia. He is perhaps the most likely man to get assasinated in the world, since the Afghan war started. Even more so now, after his actions against religious extremists. The brother of Pakistan`s interior minister (the main person targeting the extremist groups in Pakistan) was a philathripist. He was assasinated a few days ago. I wouldn`t be surprised if the same thing happens to Musharraf.

I am hoping to hear a statement from Vajpayee, that India no longer consders Kashmir an, ``atut-ang.`` After that, there are a million and one ways to solve the Kashmir problem.

Hopefully, Kashmiris will get their right of self-determination soon, within my mother`s lifetime, who still wants to move back to her house in Srinigar, from where she barely escaped in the late 40s.

shankar # 365

Shankar, we are not in disagreement. As I mentioned once to Studebaker, among us Indians I am willing fully to acknowledge the ENTIRE range of possibilities for Kashmir, including their going their own way. Every violation of human dignity in Kashmir, like anywhere else, is one too many, and should be investigated, and the guilty should be given an exemplary punishment. I dont give a damn for what human rights organizations or anybody else says, we in India, ourselves, should be strong, honest, and moral enough not to brook any criminality.

As I have mentioned before, I lived in Kashmir valley for a brief peirod when I was a mid-teen. I developed friendships and bonds that lasted years after I left the place. Under normal circumstances, I would be a passionate, if not as eloquent, a champion for indigenous Kashmiris as you.

Hoever, I am unwilling to accord the same degree of respect and consideration to Jihadi zombies and their sponsorers as I would to the ordinary people of Kashmir. To these thugs, I can offer nothing but an unshakeable, relentless, iron fist.

It is a personal shortcoming of mine, Shankar. Beside my ``normal`` self that attempts to be reasonable, cooperative, and even excessively generous if need be, I have a far darker side...one so hard it is almost brutal...angry ..animal-like. It is unreasonable, and demands unreasonable attention. There is no way this side is going to be bombed into dialogue.

Shammi

Read clause 7 of the Temporary Document of Accession and enlighten me. In any event lets face the facts... Kashmiris dont want to be part of India.. hence end of story.

Prem,

{{Let me just say that Indians do not see themselves primarily up against gun-toting crazed jihadis, but up against people like romair, hobbyty, ali1, and urstruly. And sure as hell, we will never give an inch so long as these people are involved.}}

Its one thing to oppose jehadis or militancy or even Romair. But rape, torture, killing of civilians in jail cells etc etc is no excuse. Indians were outraged at what the West Pakistani soldiers did to the E.Pakistani civilians. Where is our outrage now? Thats what Romair is saying (among other things). I have absolutely NO argument about that point.

This is going to haunt India for the rest of history--that we turned a blind eye to what AI says. In fact, we give lip service & feeble excuses that ``there will be an investigation`` & nothing really happens. Or, the unkindest cut of all--``fighting a guerella war means that sometimes human rights abuses will occur``. Everytime this abuse happens, Kashmiris hate Indians more & more. It just fuels their desire for independance. This is not about fighting Pakistan. Pakistan is not the issue--its only an excuse for us to justify something that ABSOLUTELY CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED.

UN monitors, AI, Western press SHOULD be allowed into Kashmir. Personally, Kashmir is a lost cause for India (or Pakistan). Our behaviour is absolutely undefendable. We have LOST the moral right to hold on to Kashmir--too much sin has been commited by India in these last 10-11 yrs. Our ``legal`` right to Kashmir was always extremely tenuous, at best.

If Mushy is able to hold back the cross border infiltration & the local Kashmiris stop violence & resort to non violent civil protests, India will HAVE to give up Kashmir. But I dont trust the BJP or their Hindutva M-Fers. They will kill civilians & blame it on the militants; to perpetuate India`s hold on Kashmir.

India is NOT going to change; unless a third party twists her arm. We are too steeped in our hypocritical sanctimoniousness to be introspective. In fact, Indians, even moderates have now become hawkish because the BJP has very astutely blamed Pakistan for all the problems in Kashmir & very effectively swept all our sins under the rug. Its no secret that the RSS would rather have all the Kashmiri muslims migrate to Pakistan than give up Kashmir. In fact, I think they would prefer it.

Mark my words, the MOST dangerous force that faces India is the rising strenght of the RSS. They are more dangerous than all the Pakistani-backed militants & the Pakistani nuclear bombs. They are able to successfully paint Pakistan as the villan, they pull the wool over the eyes of Indians--esp hindus. Its like Hitler capitalising on the German sense of humiliation & blaming the Jews for all their problems. Germans were a much more educated & liberal society than Indians will ever be. If Germans were whipped into an insane destructive frenzy, I will guarantee you, so will hindus. Thats what the ideology of Hindutva is all about.

What concerns me is why the rest of the world (esp the Islamic world) has been so silent? If Pakistan screams about human rights abuses in Kashmir, it falls on deaf ears in the world. I think its because Pakistan has zero credibility to take a ``moral`` or ``legal`` stance. What the HECK is the OIC doing? Have they lost their minds? The fact that they scream about the Palestinians & just murmur about Kashmiris is unconscionable(?sp).

Why the HECK is the US & Western Europe or their press so muted in their outrage? Why is India given such a wide berth? The US & Western Europe--govt & press, slammed the Serbs & the Russians (in Chechnia). AI & International press were not given access by the Serbians & Russians either. These are questions I`m unable to answer. I`ve asked these questions to Pakistanis & theyve been unable to answer--to my satisfaction--at least.

Prem, you are one of the most moderate Indians on Chowk. Not that it makes a difference in the ``real world``. But in Chowk, at least, its time some of us Indians stood up & acknowleged something that should be so blatant--India`s human rights abuses in Kashmir are INEXCUSABLE & a SIN that we will have to live with, for an eternity.

I hope & pray, everyday, that one day God is going to listen to the cries of the ordinary Kashmiris & remove the scourge of India & Pakistan from their beautiful land PERMANENTLY.

re RSaxena and Kashmir

I think you have this Glen fellow working for you to destroy any possibility of a genuine self-determination for Kashmiris :) With an attitude, logic (or lack thereof) and verbage like that, God help Kashmiris from being sucked dry by Pakistan, India, and China.

SPM,

You can see how strong emotions on both sides are when it comes to Kashmir. So much so that both Indians and Pakistanis are willing to fight to the last Kashmiri. I am sure it is something that makes neither Indians nor Pakistanis proud; nor does the conflict bring pleasure to anyone, Indians, or Pakistanis.

Given this impasse, I have repeatedly, and with much humility, suggested that we forget about `solving` the Kashmir `problem,` and move on to the task of governing our nations, and taking care of our, and Kashmiri, lives. That is, shift the focus from the business of killing to the business of living, even if imperfectly.

That approach will leave everybody a bit unhappy - Pakistanis won`t get the whole of Kashmir, Indians won`t get the whole of Kashmir, and Kashmiris won`t get their separate country.

Instead of fighting endlessly for a cause in which everybody has an equally strong pig-headed `principled stand,` we should aim for a more limited aim: securing peace, and equal rights, and respectful living for Kashmiris within the frameworks of democratic India, and democratic Pakistan.

SPM, like you perhaps, I was brought up believing that the WHOLE of Kashmir was ours. So the prospect of leaving ANY part of Kashmir with Pakistan is not easy on my emotions either, but that is ok...I don`t own the world, and it is not worth fighting with Pakistanis and the Chinese for control over the whole of Kashmir when we have other huge problems to solve.

Mutual compromise on this matter for which no easy solutions exist is the only solution. For, violence is NOT going to make anybody change their minds.

RSaxena

re: dost-mittar

well-said...every argument pakistanis put forth, can be shot down very, very easily...and you will rarely find a pakistani willing to respond then...

MAY BE PAKISTANIS DONT THINK OF YOU IMPORTANT ENOUGH AFTER PRESENTING THERE CASE IN UNO DIRECTLY WHERE IT MATTERS.SILENCE IS NOT ADMISSION OF GUILT .

1) hold a plebiscite

- with the valley cleansed of non-muslim kashmiris, how fair can a goddamn plebiscite be? and will pakistan go and take Chinese-occupied Kashmir so there can be one there too?

NO BODY IS STOPPING PUNDITS TO COME BACK FOR LEGITIMATE PLEBESCITE.TRYING TO USE EXCUSE OF CIVIL WAR GOING ON IS LIKE MUSLIM SAYING WE ARE 70,OOO (ATRITION,DEAD)LESS VOTE & IF YOU TAKE THERE OFF SPRING IN 13 YRS WOULD BE 18 IN ANOTHER 5 YEARS.BUT ARGUING LIKE THAT IS SEEN AS CHARACTERSISTIC OF ATTITUDE WHICH IS THE REASON OF CIVIL WAR .

2) india took kashmiri land

- but it`s OK for pakistan to give some to China?

SO BY THAT ARGUMENT INDIA TOOK FROM PORTUGAL GOA HYDERABAD FROM NIZAM,SIKKIM JUNAGARH.. .DO YOU HAVE CLAIM TO POK ? IF NOT THEN ITS NOT INDIAS BUSINESS.YOUR ARGUMENT IS ALWAYS CLAIMING LARGE VALLEY FOR FEW MILES OR THOUSAND PUNDIT MIGRATION FOR NAGATING MILLIONS OF KASHMIRIS VOTES .I UNDERSTAND IT, HOPE YOU TOO.

3) human rights violations in kashmir

- you start a war by sending terrorists, and complain about human rights violations? ... why were people vacationing in kashmir 15 years ago in relative peace? ... why was there no army there? ... stop the terror, and the army wil go home too ... it`s that simple.

THE HINDUTVA INFLUENCE STARTED IT IN 89.THAT WAS THE TIME WHEN BJP WAS NOT IN POWER BUT BUILDING ITS POSITION TO TAKE OVER GOVT WHICH NOW THEY HAVE.BABRI INCIDENT WAS IN 92 ALL PRECIPITATED BY SANGH PARIVARS & LIKE MINDED GOV.SAXSENA (hope u r just nick or not related to him),jAGmOHON ,ETC.ETC.

4) india got independence from britain, so should kashmir

- britain did not have a 15% indian population like india has a 15% muslim population. if those muslims can be indian, so can kashmiris.



I dont understand .kashmir was not union of india .it was princely state riyasate kashmir .you must be out of your mind to equate indian muslim with kashmir .what azam garh muslim or mumbai muslim have to do with kashmiri muslim.THE REASON KASHMIR WANT PLEBESCITE NOT BECAUSE ITS MUSLIM.ALTHOUGH BEING MUSLIM ETHNIC PUNJABI PAKHTOON etc like they are connected to those north west frontier provinces.

THERE IS NO SIMILARITY BETWEEN MUSLIMS OF KERALA WITH KASHMIRIS .what are you saying 500 million muslims in indian subcontinent are similar ,despite the fact that Pakistan is only where muslims were 80-90% It was the % PERCENTAGE -criteria NOT muslim criteria .EVEN IF BENGAL WAS 60% muslim it did not beconme Pakistan because only overwhelmingly area with 90% population muslims became pakistan........to be contd...

Prem

take it easy on yourself - just as it is OK to be right, it`s OK to be wrong. We all learn by being wrong - ya cain`t learn zilch being right. ``The amn who welcomes and acts on criticism will prize it above friendship``

The cure for being angry: ``The Producers`` with Zero Mostel - now available on VHS at BUTTbuster!

Woody Allen`s ``Bananas`` - or if tears and the ``human predicament`` do it for you Majid Majidi`s ``Color of God``. Also a picture of F. Murray Abraham`s face; such a great face.

easy days!

re: semipreciousme

{{…you know, that’s one thing i’ve never understood…i can understand the indian population getting worked up about the jihadis in kashmir, and about how they’ll never allow another partition, but it’s pretty surprising how they excuse the rape and pillage done by the army to ppl they deem as their OWN, so lightly….}}

can you please find me an indian who, as you claim above, `excuses the rape and pillage`...this is one of those watermelon-sized myths pakis blurt out of habit...what do you want indians to do?...the army cannot leave kashmir until the jehadis are gone...and there have been military trials and convictions of soldiers on rape charges...

as for curbs on kashmiris` liberties, that is a necessity of war...furthermore, to me a kashmiri who houses and feeds a militant deserves a bullet between his eyes as much as the militant does...as does any indian supporting treason...

btw, romair`s comment about the ``Hindu Army`` shows him to be the retard he is, yet again...a large part of india`s army in kashmir is Muslim and Sikh...much of the local police force in Kashmir is Muslim...there will never be peace on the subcontinent until pakis understand this about india...it is a VERY different place from pakistan...

hobbyty # 356

anger, anger, anger....I need to get anger out of my system...apologies, dear Hobbyty....I/we shouldn`t personalize issues...I have nothing personal against any of the gentlemen in that list...just the ideas...and those ideas live and die irrespective of the people.

Regards.

Semipreciousme 350 & prem 354

SMP, What prem is saying ``when pigs will fly`` or ``it has the same chances as as a smow flake in hell``

Prem

Why so hostile amigo? - Reason, reason is good.

Check out the taliban board.

Let a thousand flower bloom! In pluralistic, tolerant, open societies - differences of opinion are not reason for the suspension of conscience.

Re: romair

``...I have never argued that Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir is correct...``

But, President Musharraf says that `Kashmir runs in our blood`. Do you realize the contradiction there?