The Significant Unit of War

semipreciousme # 350

``it’s pretty surprising how they excuse the rape and pillage done by the army to ppl they deem as their OWN, so lightly….``

SPM, Indian`s DON`T excuse the ``rape and pillage`` done by the army in Kashmir lightly. There are many many many Indians who are anguished by the tough choices India has to make in Kashmir. But those choices lead to no moral confusion in our minds since we see the problem of Kashmir in a completely different way.

Ah, we have gone over these reasons many many times before. Let me just say that Indians do not see themselves primarily up against gun-toting crazed jihadis, but up against people like romair, hobbyty, ali1, and urstruly. And sure as hell, we will never give an inch so long as these people are involved.

Were the tragedy of Kashmir delinked from such people, things may take a different shape...but then that pehaps will never happen...

Re: Romair

``... when they (Indians) are willing to accept accusations against Pakistan, without proof?...``

It hurts Pakistan`s case when unsavory characters after having been released from jail as a result of an aircraft hijacking sport guns on the back of pickup trucks, call for violence on specific civilians and institutions throughout India. The burden of proof falls when these things go on unabated. Likewise, if India had private armies openly calling for targetting of specific civilians and institutions (Pakistan equivalent of Red Fort, Parliament, etc.) in the media, then Pakistan, too, would have had a strong case against India.

RSaxena # 348

``... why was there no army there? ...``

Although nowhere near as heavy as today, the presence of Indian army in Indian Kashmir was quite significant even 15 years ago. Similarly, Pakistani Kashmir has always had a heavy concentration of Pakistani armed forces.

What happened 15 years ago was a tragic alignment of ill stars for both India and Pakistan. The Congress government in India mishandled the situation in Indian Kashmir, just as they had been doing in other parts of India, and the Pakistani army saw an unprecedented opportunity to use the enormous, low-cost, jihadi ``assets`` freed up from Afghanistan to do a Kabul on Srinagar.

The rest is history. 70,000 dead. 80,000 dead. And endless moralizing hot air.

Romair:

“They are supporting an almost completely Hindu Army`s killing of tens of thousands of Muslims in India`s only Muslim majoirty province.”

…you know, that’s one thing i’ve never understood…i can understand the indian population getting worked up about the jihadis in kashmir, and about how they’ll never allow another partition, but it’s pretty surprising how they excuse the rape and pillage done by the army to ppl they deem as their OWN, so lightly….

Prem

“Neither you nor Pakistan will ever have a better opportunity. From what I can tell, most Pakistanis are with you.”



…pretty much…on bbc, right after the speech, they had reactions from ppl in pak…as one man put it:….”we are 100% agree with president musharraf”…went on a picnic yesterday with family and a lot of family friends…..main topic was, of course, the speech….everybody agreed wholeheartedly with it…this british-born-and-bred aunty who kept gushing about him....then there was this old uncle, an ex-army man who must’ve been pushing 70, who kept going on and on about how the army’s always been unfairly maligned….and that it was the bureaucrats that were to blame…even went as far as to say that if a war did start, they’d be the first one to run…tried reasoning with him, but that was one feisty uncle…

Stuka:

``SPM: You live in Lahore right? So you can come to the border whenever you want right? That`s cool I think.``

....cool?...more as in the first in the line of fire if war starts...

``I really enjoyed my trip to Amritsar, with Punjabi being spoken all around, I felt like it`s where I belong. Dinner at a place called Bhrawan Da Dhaba, with a next door restaurant called Brother`s Restaurant owned by the same people. Anyway, tonite`s my last night in New Delhi. I fly out tommorow night, and on Wednesday, it`ll be back to listening to harsh Irish accents :(``

....yeah, amritsar is on my list of places to visit in india....if, and when i suppose....

``Is your cousin in the AirForce? I curse the Jehadi types all the time, but I have a lot of respect for the uniformed personnel of every country including yours. I sincerely believe that the chance of war has receded for the time being, and I hope your aunt doesn`t worry too much.``

...yeah, he`s in the airforce....telling my aunt not to worry is like telling urstruly/jay not to be so bigoted....it don`t work...:)

re: dost-mittar

well-said...every argument pakistanis put forth, can be shot down very, very easily...and you will rarely find a pakistani willing to respond then...

1) hold a plebiscite

- with the valley cleansed of non-muslim kashmiris, how fair can a goddamn plebiscite be? and will pakistan go and take Chinese-occupied Kashmir so there can be one there too?

2) india took kashmiri land

- but it`s OK for pakistan to give some to China?

3) human rights violations in kashmir

- you start a war by sending terrorists, and complain about human rights violations? ... why were people vacationing in kashmir 15 years ago in relative peace? ... why was there no army there? ... stop the terror, and the army wil go home too ... it`s that simple.

4) india got independence from britain, so should kashmir

- britain did not have a 15% indian population like india has a 15% muslim population. if those muslims can be indian, so can kashmiris.

Shankar #343: ``Sure it does; if it is absolutely convinced India is behind it. Its OK to declare war too.``

Alright, so lets agree that this should then be the standard: Anytime there is domestic terrorism, each country has a right to pile up forces against the other. I hope you do realize that there is a big difference between conventional war and nuclear war. Pakistan and India can go thru only so many Cuban missile crises, before they blow each other up. In 65 and 71, Pakistan could not blow India up, but India could, in a long war, blow up Pakistan. So the situation wasn`t as dangerous as today. But now Pakistan can blow up India also.

I would say, on the average, there is one terrorist act per week in South Asia (and I am not even including the biggest hub of suicide bombing in the world, Sri Lanka). So that means, there will be potentially 52 possible nuclear wars. Since a precedent has now been set, I give India and Pakistan two years, before we blow each other up.

It is this precendent that I am more afraid of, than the current pile-up of Indian forces.

`` guess you believe the chicken came before the egg & I believe the egg came before the chicken...``

I don`t believe the chicken came before the egg, or vice versa. I just think we should just ask the chicken itself, when if arrived, instead of trying to figure it out ourselves.

``Sopranos is on.``

No wonder Indians are becoming so violent. They watch Sopranos the whole day. Whatever happened to watching Raj Kapoor and Nargis. Violent Indian used to be an oxymoron. Just like white guys don`t look good when they rap, Indians don`t look too good when they try to act tough :=)

If you get some time tonight, do go to www.pakistanvision.com and view the video of News Night with Talat Hussain, with Imran Khan, Asghar Khan etc. I would be interested in your views. Sopranos is not as important under the current situation.

re:Reply #: 340

Romair,

When Taliban and OBL asked for proof, did USA furnish proof? Why do you think US did not bother to furnish proof. If you call a thief a thief, what do you think will be a thief`s response?

It is stupid to furnish proof to Pakistan about something that is a given. Pakistani men captured in Afghanistan have all been telling the same story: they were trained by ISI, Pak army in Taliban camps. Many of them have seen action in Kashmir. That is the proof for you. Do you seriously believe India staged this? There is no doubt that terrorists attacked the parliament. The question is: Did Mushy know about this beforehand or he did not know. Finally, it does not matter. Indians are only questioning Pakistan`s covert and overt complicity in the matter. Such support has resulted in a number of attacks on India including the one on the Indian parliament. Even if Mushy had nothing to do with this, he is still culpable for having followed a policy that encourages such attacks. Indians are only questioning the Pakistani policy whose latest and the most ghastly manifestation was the Dec 13 attack.

Besides, i do not think US or any other country has demanded to see the proof. When Jaswant Singh was in US after the Sept 11 attack, one media person asked him why India supported US without looking into the proof of OBL`s involvement. JS said that the attack on the twin tower has OBL written all over. Similar thing can be said about the attack on the Indian parliament. It has ISI written all over it.

Sridhar

Romair #340
Re proof. Apparently, Mr Cowasjee is saying in the Dawn that India engineered the Parliament attack because no photographs of the attackers were realised. The previous week, one Bilal Siddiqui in the Friday Times alleged the same thing saying that an Indian friend had mailed him saying the Times of India had published the photographs of the five attackers on the front page, alongside the papers Eid greetings. He seemed to think the juxtaposition of 5 dead faces of `Muslims`(how did Mr Siddiqui know they were Muslims, (does he have proof, do you think?) and Eid greetings to Indian readers showed India`s ill intent ).
Just a suggestion. Why doesnot Mr Cowasjee get in touch with Mr Bilal Siddiqui and sort it out?

Romair,

{{Could you please email to me the proof that has been sent to all the Indians.}}

Know what?! I was just about to e-mail you the proof & oops--the dog ate it!

Havent we seen this movie before?

I mean havent we argued this before? Yes, yes, yes & a 1000 times yes--India should have sent proof. Just as you claim you are not the spokesman for the GoP, I am not for the GoI. They have used the same excuse as the US. So yes, I personally think GoI should send evidence to Pakistan.

However, I believed the US govt re OBL`s hand on 9/11 & I believe the GoI in that GoP is INDIRECTLY responsible for 12/13.

Now if you or any Pakistanis then conclude that I & other Indians have lost their judgement or our moral compass for believing that..what can I tell you? May we burn in everlasting damnation. I`m just glad God isnt Pakistani.

{{And why the ?& *#@!% doesn`t India expose Pakistan to the rest of the world, by showing the proof, when they have agreed to give it to all its own citizens.}}

Good question. I think they have. Otherwise why would Bush twist Mushy`s arm? Why has`nt Western Europe publicly backed Pakistan about ``show me proof?``.

.

{{At the very least, would you agree that Pakistan now also has the moral right to threaten war against India, when a terrorist attack occurs in Pakistan, even without proof. The brother of the Pakistani interior minister was recently assisinated. Is it ok to declare war on India? }}

Sure it does; if it is absolutely convinced India is behind it. Its OK to declare war too. I personally would`nt recommend it; but then, I`m not a military expert like you, Field Marshall. Heck Pakistan has declared war in 65 by launching Op Gibralter & in 71 by attempting an Israeli style blitzkreig on Indian forward airbases. Not that it got them much, but thats a different story.

{{If you look at your arguments and mine, on Kashmir, you will notice two big differences:

1) I have never argued that Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir is correct. I have always argued that the Kashmiris stance on Kashmir is correct. Whatever they say should be done. India is unwilling to break away from the atut-ang stance. While I have broken away from Pakistan`s atut-ang stance (Pakistan has broken away from this stance, also). Why do you and other Indians have such a great desire to decide Kashmiri future, while I do not have that desire, even though I am a Kashmiri? Please ask yourself this question.}}

Listen buddy--if you & I were negotiating this for our govts, I would GLADLY give Kashmir independance. I would GLADLY encourage UP & Bihar to ask for independance too. Whats more, I would gladly donate those two states to Pakistan for free. In fact, come to think of it, I would INSIST that Pakistan take those states--even if she didnt want them, as a prerequisite to Kashmiri independance. But most of all, I would insist on Kashmiris, & only Kashmiris, to do whatever they want; but ONLY if Pakistan did India a BIG favor--take Saxena to Pakistan & KEEP HIM THERE!

See--since my ideas are so unpalatable to both sides, its just as well that I dont represent the GoI.

{{2) I have always argued that international human rights organizations and the international press should let us know what is going on in Kashmir.}}

Agreed. Especially since AI is saying one heck of a lot about Indian atrocities in Kashmir, eventhough they are not even allowed there.

{{ . You continue to project the view of the Indian press. If what you say is correct, then why is India afraid of the international press, and why is Pakistan not afraid of it?}}

Huhn?!!

{{It is unfortunate that Indians, nearly all of them, still do not realize their role in the Kashmir problem. The Indian suppression in Kashmir is not because of the militancy. The militancy is occuring because of Indian subjugation and suppression. When people are occupied, they tend to become militant. Musharraf has himself in the speech asked for AI to be allowed into Kashmir. I hope India agrees to that. If not, then I have to say India is greatly hiding the truth.}}

Gee whenever I travelled to Kashmir, I could walk the streets of Srinagar, Gulmarg & Phelgam without any fear of assault or kidnapping. Cant seem to recall any militancy at that time. I recall 3 of my friends & I went on a 3 hr hike(after a 3 hr bumpy car ride) with local Kashmiri guides to fight the right kind of streams for trout fishing. You think I would have the guts to do such a damned fool thing today? Wonder why I had never heard of militants then (in the 70s).

I guess you believe the chicken came before the egg & I believe the egg came before the chicken...

Maybe I`ll answer the rest of your post later---the Sopranos just came on...

Shankar #338: First things first:

``But when the Parliament is attacked; its time Indians say ``enough is enough``.``

Could you please email to me the proof that has been sent to all the Indians. Most of the terrorist attacks in Pakistan are traced back to RAW (which has a much larger budget than the ISI, by the way). I tend to not accept the Pakistanis tracebacks to RAW, without proof. But why bother, if Indians don`t need proof, then I do not need it any longer. Lets declare war on each other after every domestic terrorist attack. A very good way to live as nuclear neighbors.

And why the ?& *#@!% doesn`t India expose Pakistan to the rest of the world, by showing the proof, when they have agreed to give it to all its own citizens. After all, the USA did release the OBL tape the moment they found it. It made more sense to release it, then to keep it.

And why do Indian citizens keep saying they have so much in common with Pakistan, and want to be friends, when they are willing to accept accusations against Pakistan, without proof? The votebank of the BJP actually increases, when it threatens war on Pakistan, or explodes a nuclear bomb. You may not agree with the BJP`s actions, but the common Indian certainly does.

At the very least, would you agree that Pakistan now also has the moral right to threaten war against India, when a terrorist attack occurs in Pakistan, even without proof. The brother of the Pakistani interior minister was recently assisinated. Is it ok to declare war on India?

If you look at your arguments and mine, on Kashmir, you will notice two big differences:

1) I have never argued that Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir is correct. I have always argued that the Kashmiris stance on Kashmir is correct. Whatever they say should be done. India is unwilling to break away from the atut-ang stance. While I have broken away from Pakistan`s atut-ang stance (Pakistan has broken away from this stance, also). Why do you and other Indians have such a great desire to decide Kashmiri future, while I do not have that desire, even though I am a Kashmiri? Please ask yourself this question.

2) I have always argued that international human rights organizations and the international press should let us know what is going on in Kashmir. And the Indian and Pakistani press should not be followed. You continue to project the view of the Indian press. If what you say is correct, then why is India afraid of the international press, and why is Pakistan not afraid of it?

It is unfortunate that Indians, nearly all of them, still do not realize their role in the Kashmir problem. The Indian suppression in Kashmir is not because of the militancy. The militancy is occuring because of Indian subjugation and suppression. When people are occupied, they tend to become militant. Musharraf has himself in the speech asked for AI to be allowed into Kashmir. I hope India agrees to that. If not, then I have to say India is greatly hiding the truth.

``Let me also tell you that NO Indian is ``proud`` of the fact that thousands are dying in Kashmir.``

I can point to at least ten Indians on this website alone, who are openly proud of it. That would be about 1/3rd of the Indians, who regularly visit this site. Can you point out one Pakistani who is proud of the killings that Pakistani did in Bangladesh (even though Bangladesh was not disputed territory)? Name one Pakistani on this site. Why is there such a difference in mindset?

Killing people, banning HR organizations so no one can see the killings, and then saying no Indian is proud of it, is at least a little bit condescending. Indians, if not proud, are at least willing to tolerate it. Just think about what would happen in Canada, if the Canadian military went in to Quebec, and 60,000 people were killed just because Quebecans wanted separation.

``So eventhough Indians truly regret the death of civilians in Kashmir; they feel the ``guilt`` lies predominantly with Pakistan. Now you & I (in fact our great grand children too) will be arguing whether thats accurate or not.``

It is not for you and I, nor our grandchildren to decide such an important issues like the deaths of human beings. We are not slaveowners deciding the fate of our slaves. I don`t have that right over any other human being. And I certainly don`t want my grandchildren trying to play God, and making such decisions. I hope you dont either. Why not just ask the people who are getting killed. They can let you and I know who is to be blamed. I will accept their word if you will.

``I`ve visited Kashmir (as a tourist) several times as a teenager & in my 20s in those ``last 40 yrs``. Indians have been welcomed there & Kashmiris were thriving & didnt feel that they were living in a ``police state``.``

You maybe right. So once again, let`s just ask the Kashmiris themselves, and accept what they say. Why do you want to make assumptions for them? Neither you nor I own them. Do you at least agree to that?

Until the Kashmiris are asked, we will never know what they want. And to the best of my knowledge, it is India, which is scared of asking them, while simultaneously stating that they don`t like killing them, but is only doing so because of Pakistan, and because of the militacy. This has always been the basis of every single subjugation of every single human being in the history of mankind. Unfortunately.

A human being`s desire to dominate another human being is very delicious and empowering. This is the main cause of spousal abuse, rape, slavery, colonialism, etc. Human beings will go out of their way to justify this desire. People justify hitting their wives by thinking their wives asked for it. It is always for the benefit of the subjugated, is the argument. The British colonists were, after all, civilizing the locals. The occupiers never, ``like`` killing the people who are asking for freedom, but unfortunately they have, ``no choice.`` However, when someone interrupts the slaveowner, the human rights violater, the wife abuser, the rapist, the person in power, and asks him, ``If you are so sure of your views on what the subjugated wants, then why are you so scared to ask the subjuagated himself,`` the person in power has no answer.

Don`t make assumptions on what is good for Kashmiris, and don`t believe the Pakistani assumptions either. Just ask the people who are getting killed, themselves. Otherwise, you are only assisting the human rights violations in Kashmir, by justifying them, and not speaking out against them.

As a test, replace Kashmir with Quebec in all you statements, and India with Canada, and see if the arguments still appeal to you. Or replace Kashmir with Bangladesh, India with Pakistan, and Pakistan with India, and see if you still feel the same. If you don`t feel the same, then I am afraid you, and other Indians, are valuing Kashmiri life less than lives of people whom India is allied with.

I assume India has not gotten to a stage where it is completely disregarding Gandhi. Gandhi said the following:

``If the people of Kashmir are in favor of opting for Pakistan, no power on earth can stop them from doing so. They should feel free to decide for themselves.`` (Gandhi`s Passion; Wolpert)

Do you agree with what Gandhi stated? And do you think Indians agree with what Gandhi stated? If not, then under what precedence are you, or other Indians, asking for the removal of the BJP. You are infact preaching their stance on Kashmir, perhaps without realizing it.

Nationalism is a very strong force, my friend. It distorts one`s views of right and wrong. Specially, when one`s country is in a state of war. It forces people to start following the views of domestic groups and parties, they otherwise would oppose. I hope you don`t become a victim of such Nationalism. If even Indians like you become victims of Nationalism, then I am afraid India has completely lost its moral compass, and within ten years or so, will be left behind by Pakistan. Because Pakistan has through a lot of struggle discovered its moral compass again (this is the answer to the question I asked about why you will not be able to find any Pakistanis on this site, with defensive views in regard to Bangladesh).

stuka 322: Everyone in Pakistan, and in the world, knows that Pakistanis civilians cross into Kashmir (some of whom have carried out terrorism). Just like everyone in India, and in the world, knows that India has 500k + solidiers in Kashmir, some of whom have killed tens of thousands of people in Kashmir. That is why India never allows HR organizations into Kashmir, to expose the Pakistanis crossing in. That is why India does not even the UN monitors on its side to monitor the border. Because India knows an overwhelming amount of atrocities are being committed by the Indian forces, and only some by the terrorist elements of the freedom struggle. This should be obvious and logical.

Musharraf has now subtly admitted that Pakistanis do cross into Kashmir. He did not call them terrorists however. He said Pakistan would not allow them to cross into Kashmir. And that Pakistan would not allow its land to be used for terrorism (something he said three months ago). The former was directed towards India, and the later towards the USA. Basically he is telling India, we will stop the cross-border movement.

Now its up to India. For fifty years Indians have been saying that the Kashmiris want to be with India. We all know this is not true.

For eleven years Indians have been saying that the uprising in Kashmir has been caused by Pakistanis and is not indigenous. This is not true either. If it were, then India would have not banned AI.

For fifty years India has been saying that Kashmir is an atut-ang of India. This is not true either. It is still disputed territory, according to any legal or moral document. Heck, according to the Indian constitution, people like me, who are from Muzzafarabad in Pakistan`s Kashmir are actually Indian citizens (seriously). Now this is not true, is it?

The Indian law minister came on CNN and said 61,000 of his Indian civilians had been killed in Indian Kashmir by Pakistanis. Of course, this is not true. If it were, Indian Kashmiris would hate Pakistan and not love it. Obviously, some innocent pro-Indian Kashmiris have been killed by freedom fighters (both from Pakistan and from indigenous Kashmir population, who at that point become terrorists; this happens in every freedom struggle). But an overwhelming amount have been killed by the Indian occupying forces. The ratio in freedom struggles is usually like 1 to 10 o or higher, in favor of the armed militaries.

So this is where we stood till yesterday, in a deadlocked position. Musharraf has come out and broken the deadlock. He has basically stated that 1) alright, we admit Pakistanis cross into Kashmir, and we will stop them (the local Kashmiris are going to keep fighting however).

2) we do however believe the Kashmiris need to get their right of self-determination

3) now lets talk. And in the talks you have to admit everything you are doing also. That is why Musharraf specifically asked for AI and the international press to be allowed into Kashmir. I had been suggesting for a long time that India needs to lift this ban.

4) in the talks, you have to get rid of the atut-ang stance (which is the basic cause of the whole problem).

No. 4 is the tricky part. India has never budged an inch from its illegal stance (it is illegal according to the UN). Even now, Vajpayee has said that India will just talk to Pakistan, if Pakistan stop cross-border movements. This is what scares me. I don`t think India is going to budge again. It will just talk and talk, while trying to simultanously suppress the Kashmiris into submission. That is why it has never agreed to Pakistan`s offers of bilaterally withdrawing all forces from Kashmir.

So we are back to square one. It is still upto India to get rid of atut-ang. If it does that, there will be some solution to Kashmir. If it doesn`t then I am afraid, the militant struggle will start again. After all, it was for self-determination that the struggle was started to begin with.

The main concern of the Pakistanis is really to get the independent militant organizations out of the Pakistani society. This process will be completed in a year, if Musharraf keeps going the way he is going. If these organizations just shift their bases into Indian Kashmir, then why would that bother Pakistan. It would have just gotten rid of its problem, and handed it over to India, which is already facing huge problems in Kashmir, and in my opinion, it will be soon facing huge problems in India, with Advani running the BJP.

So all eyes are are on India, to see if India can honestly come forward now (like Musharraf did) and expose what it has been doing in Kashmir, through the international press. And more importantly, agree to self-determination. My bets are that India will not. It is still not agreeing to international mediation, while simultaneously flying its representatives to all over the world to put pressure on Pakistan. India`s startegy has always been to corner Pakistan, and control Kashmir. Not to corner Pakistan, and solve Kashmir. Pakistan`s stategy has been to create problems in Kashmir, and get a self-determination through force.

Pakistan needed to get out of the getting Kashmir militarily and militantly mentality, which it finally has. And India needs to get out of the state of denial of atut-ang (which I hope it will now). After that Kashmir issue can be solved in a day.

My guess is now India will be forced to accept an independent valley, with Ladakh and Jammu to India and Azad Kashmir to Pakistan (the Khushwant Singh formula). Pakistan and the Kashmiris will accept this. I think Vajpayee has accepted it. Now the rest of India and Indians (hardly any of whom have ever been to Kashmir) need to do some introspection and start pointing out their own faults, alongwith those of the Pakistanis (I have seen hardly any Indian say that atut-ang is wrong, or have the courage to say that India is committing massive human rights violations; banning an HR organization is itself a human rights violation).

If India however doesn`t bend like Pakistan did then I am afraid, in the long run, India will lose out. Kashmir is a gone case for India, primarily because Kashmiris hate Indians more than even Pakistanis hate Indians, or Indians hate Pakistanis. I live there, so I know.

I hope India doesn`t just talk for the sake of talking, without changing its stance. If it just talks, then it has no one else to blame except itself for the Kashmir problem. Lets see what happens.

India has greatly underestimated Pakistan and Musharraf. Musharraf has turned every Indian offensive back on India. Once again he has done it with this speech. India has its forces massed on border, without knowing what to do, now. I believe the Ayodhya temple is being built in March or April (not sure), that will cause riots, which will get international press. That will furthur damage India`s image.

I think this is do or die for Kashmir. If India doesn`t get rid of atut-ang, then we will be back to 50 years of Indo-Pak conflicts. Because, no Pakistani is going to bend more than Musharraf has. I hope Indians realize this.

Happy Lohri to all Punjabis out there...Had a neighborhood Lohri Party...Played songs from Monsoon Wedding.

It`s a great movie...BTW, very typical of South Delhi

Prem:

Ok, then you and I are basically on the same page. I am justvery wary of Indians being emotional and swinging from ``Pakis are devils`` to ``Pakis are brothers`` hindi movie style, coz that leads to false expectations.

BTW, I disagree with your take on COAS`s speech. He is a very sober guy. The chap to look out for is Army Commander Northern Command Gen Rustom Nanvatty, a Parsi chap. Word is that he is one ruthless bugger and quite liable to start a war on his own ;) Kidding about the last part. True story is that this guy was posted to Siachen as Brigade commander, and Army HQ asked him for an explanation on why the consumption of arty shells had quadrupled under his tenure.

SPM: You live in Lahore right? So you can come to the border whenever you want right? That`s cool I think.

I really enjoyed my trip to Amritsar, with Punjabi being spoken all around, I felt like it`s where I belong. Dinner at a place called Bhrawan Da Dhaba, with a next door restaurant called Brother`s Restaurant owned by the same people. Anyway, tonite`s my last night in New Delhi. I fly out tommorow night, and on Wednesday, it`ll be back to listening to harsh Irish accents :(

Is your cousin in the AirForce? I curse the Jehadi types all the time, but I have a lot of respect for the uniformed personnel of every country including yours. I sincerely believe that the chance of war has receded for the time being, and I hope your aunt doesn`t worry too much.

The full text of Bole So Nihal is:

``Jo Boley So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal`` which is the essence of Sikhi. It`s also used as a greeting and a war cry by the Sikh and I believe Sikh Light Infantry regiments. I can do a rough translation, but I am hoping Dulla Bhatti or Dost Mittar can do a good one. If they don`t I will...

Cheers

Romair,

{{``Why in the world would he do that if it there was no coerction of some sort?!``

The coercion came from Musharraf himself, the UN and the USA. This is exacly what I am trying to explain to Indians. Pakistani do not fear India.}}

I think either you have misunderstood my post or you & I are talking on 2 different frequencies:)

Let me tell you categorically, Indians--whether they are liberal, conservative or radical DO know that Pakistanis DONT fear India. When it comes to courage, patriotism or fighting spirit, Pakistanis are right up there. Heck, we have the scars of cricket & hockey matches to know that:). Indians also know, that eventhough they feel they have prevailed in wars with Pakistan, that war with Pakistan can have disastrous consequences for India.

So please dont go on & on about Pakistan`s determination for what they stand for--maybe I should play a violin when you go on & on with that point.

What I was saying was that the massive build up was a reaction of how fedup Indians are with Pakistan`s policy of ``bleeding India``. Its bad enough that it goes on in Kashmir. But when the Parliament is attacked; its time Indians say ``enough is enough``.

If something concrete isnt done, Pakistan can keep on playing these games (mumbling murmurs of ``outrage`` at the terrorist attacks, suggesting it was an Indian plot to discredit Pakistan & then giving a wink & a nod to the militant Kashmiris & their ``foreign`` hitmen & calling them freedom fighters).

1) We can agree to disagree; but I believe the US & Western Europe & even China have convinced Mushy that this ``war of a 1000 cuts`` should be called off--clearly, convincingly & without double-talk. No matter how ``principled`` Pakistan thinks her stance is vis-a vis Kashmir; a guerella war or a ``freedom fight`` will NOT be accepted , even by Pakistan`s ``all-weather friend``.

I think India`s massive build up was more to convince the rest of the world (not Pakistan) that India has reached the limits of her patience & (despite Pakistans Massada Complex) will go to war unless Pakistan changes her policy of ``bleeding India``--no matter how disastrous the consequences could be to India.

The general mood among Indians is that ``its better to accept the consequences--as bitter as they can be--than be subjected to this sort of constant low-level blackmail``. I think the rest of the world took that point well & pressured Pakistan. I`m not sure whether we disagree on that point--if we do, lets agree to disagree.

2)Let me also tell you that NO Indian is ``proud`` of the fact that thousands are dying in Kashmir. Unlike what Urstruly believes, ``Hindians`` DO have a conscience. Right, wrong or indifferent, Indians believe that the deaths in Kashmir is a very very unfortunate consequence of Kashmiri militancy--ESP that that militancy is no longer Kashmiri; but hijacked by Pakistanis and Islamic extremists.

So eventhough Indians truly regret the death of civilians in Kashmir; they feel the ``guilt`` lies predominantly with Pakistan. Now you & I (in fact our great grand children too) will be arguing whether thats accurate or not. In that respect Indians are just as stubborn as Pakistanis. So, when Pakistanis like ylh or Urstruly sometimes, in a fit of frustration, say ``I hate Indians`` or ``Hindians have no conscience``--the dominant response to these outbursts are ``we dont give a s *it what you & like minded Pakistanis think of us--kiss our butt``.

{{you missed one important point: India has betweeen 500,000 to 700,000 troop deployed in its only Muslim majority state to control the population. They are killing tens of thousands of people. Are you seriously suggesting to me, as an Indian, that the Indian society is so primitive and so brutal, that something like this has absolutely no effect on it? They ``just doesn`t care,`` as you have eloquently and bluntly put it.}}

I believe I`ve clarified my point. If you felt that Indians dont ``care`` that Kashmiris are dying; then I regret to say, that I was`nt clear about making my point. Indians dont CARE that Pakistanis feel that they have the moral highground re the Kashmir issue.

{{You need to keep in mind the only reason the situation reached this stage is because India did not recognize peaceful protests for forty years.}}

Well, I guess the only thing I can say about that is that Indians & Pakistanis will NEVER agree about that. I`ve visited Kashmir (as a tourist) several times as a teenager & in my 20s in those ``last 40 yrs``. Indians have been welcomed there & Kashmiris were thriving & didnt feel that they were living in a ``police state``.

Wrongs can be set right by peaceful means--& NO, the Kashmiris HAVENT done that. Those Kashmiris who DO want to do that are too scared of the militants. Incidentally, the militants have killed scores of Kashmiri muslims--either because they think they are ``Indian chamchas`` or because guerella wars, unfortunately, have ``collateral damage``.

I freely acknowlege what India did in Kashmir the latter part of the 80s was WRONG. BTW, I think most Indians do so too. Unfortunately, militancy had the opposite effect for Kashmiris. It just put them in a terrible hole.

I also feel that ,coincidentally, the GoP was ``riding high`` over their mujahadeen ``victory`` over the Soviets in Afghanistan, at that time. The powers that be in Pakistan decided, as a matter of policy, that they could adopt the same strategy in Kashmir & the same fate as the Soviets would befall the Indians.

In hindsight, Pakistanis, even Mushy, has come to the conclusion that that strategy has failed in Kashmir. The ``key`` in the Soviet defeat (in hindsight) was US SUPPORT of the mujahadeen. Just like the Northern Alliance had no HOPE of toppling the Taleban without US support, GoP has no HOPE of making India relent without US support.

Having said that; these are my views after Mushy`s speech:

1)Bravo Musharraf!! You have truely shown incredible statesmanship, strenght & character. My belief that you are the best leader that Pakistan has had (since Jinnah) is confirmed. I feel very encouraged that Pakistan has a man at the helm like you. Not only will you bring Pakistan away from the brink, but you will probably go down in history as the greatest S.Asian leader in modern times.

2) I think Pakistanis should be optimistic about their future with someone like Mushy at the helm. This man came on the international world scene underestimated. But in the short couple of years, he has earned the respect of the world, at large. I`d like to hope that most Indians feel the same way about him.

3) If Mushy keeps his word (& I think he will); he will bring not just Pakistan; but S.Asia (India ,in particular) out of the doldrums.

4)India should respect his patriotism for Pakistan. I guess no Indian or Pakistani will interpret history the same way. But a stable & prosperous Pakistan that remains engaged with India (despite irreconcilable differences) is the best thing that can happen to India.

5) Its ABOUT TIME India starts becoming introspective--esp about its behaviour in Kashmir & minorities, in general. Any Indian who feels India has a ``moral highground`` vis a vis Pakistan is being delusional. Its time India recognises that they maybe a ``victim`` of terror--but certainly NOT an ``innocent victim`` of terror.

6) Indians should realise that the ONLY hope for the future of their country should be a continued dialogue with Pakistan. A little maturity would go a long way too--this stupid habit of ``one-upmanship`` that desis focus on is absolutely childish. Besides, ``refusing to talk because we are angry`` is childish too, on India`s part.

7) Refusing to build on the ``hand of friendship`` that Mushy has offered will not be looked upon kindly by the rest of the world. Now is the time Vaju has to put his money where his mouth is: ``I will walk more than half way for peace if Pakistan stops cross border terrorism``--or something to that effect. Hawks, on both sides, will be determined to sabotage this. Its upto the majority of Indians & Pakistanis NOT to let them win.

8)Indians HAVE to start being introspective. They SHOULD boot out the BJP (& get a better alternative party to their Hindutva crap).

Ahem...not because Romair thinks its right; but because IT IS RIGHT!:)

re: semipreciousme

Something to the effect of ...wish he had left out that ``kashmir in our blood`` part?

Dear SPM...please don`t worry...our Indian and Pakistani feelings that the whole of Kashmir legitimately belongs to us, or that kashmir is in our blood aren`t the main obstacles to peace and progress...It is the overt and covert use of violence to enforce our will that is the main stumbling block...If PM can really deliver on his promise to stop violent provocations into territory held by India, and begins to take unambiguous steps in that direction...I will be ready to salute him.

Stuka,

And it goes to spm too in some ways.

This world`s a very complex place...Pervez Musharraf is no saint. But we shouldn`t be ready to make peace with saints only...emotional and worldly wisdom demands our taking a complex situation...rife with innumerable uncertainties and their attendant risks...and divining fairly simple solutions that can ensure peace and pride for all...These solutions mustn`t be based on complete gullibity (here is where I differ with those who are already saluting Pervez Musharraf), but must arise from our construcing, with care and caution, scenarios where the other party has the pressure, the incentive, and the encouragement to act rationally. And then we must be prepared for the large/small probability that we may all fail yet again.

Let`s eschew those childish notions of Pervez the eternal sinner, Pervez the sudden saint. Pervez Musharraf is just an ordinary joe, an above-average soldier in an extraordinary position, catapulted there by the inscrutable hand of fate (and the idiocy of Prime Minister Sharif): self-interested, brave, very intelligent with not-so-clear a grasp of a broader, long-range, vision, driven by a deep love of his country, and in his case a deep deep dislike of India (which is ok, as far as I am concerned....we don`t NEED others to love us).

Are we, with six-thousand years of cultural history behind us, not ready to deal with a man like him? I think we are. I dont suggest Indians be suckered in, just like I will never be suckered in by anyone who has pulled every antic to ever harm my family and then starts mouthing good words under pressure...me and my family are too important for me to bother with political correctness...but we mustn`t be petty either.

Facts, as I see them, are as follows: Although he had been a disastrous ruler with good-sounding, empty words at home and misguided policies abroad since he took over, post September 11, Pervez Musharraf has been very good for Pakistan. Pakistanis have a reason to salute him (although I would strongly suggest they listen carefully and closely to what sameerjb has to say).

But let Indians too take a risk for peace, not the risk of stupidity (of the kind - Pervez Musharraf is a wonderful man, let`s solute him) but the risk of bravery (the sins of all those rulers from Zia Ul Haq to Parvez Musharraf himself may finally be catching up with Pervez, and being an intelligent man, he MAY have finally decided to do what many clear-headed Pakistanis themselves want him to do - make a fundamental change in the direction his country had been taking; not a cosmetic, strategic shift to buy time, of the kind romair (and by extension, many in the Pakistani military) has been advocating, but a radical reorientation, as envisaged by the man who fought to make Pakistan - Jinnah.

No courage -- No risk -- No gain in life.

Whether we are Pakistanis or Indians, some basic truths never change.