The Significant Unit of War
Aisha Sarwari January 4, 2002
#285 Posted by Prem on January 12, 2002 1:57:50 pm
re: narain # 275
``... The Kashmiri activist pointed out to TFT that India had never used the term ¡§cross border terrorism¡¨ until the guest organisations became active in Indian-held Kashmir.``
Please don`t confuse people with facts.
``... The Kashmiri activist pointed out to TFT that India had never used the term ¡§cross border terrorism¡¨ until the guest organisations became active in Indian-held Kashmir.``
Please don`t confuse people with facts.
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#284 Posted by narain on January 12, 2002 1:57:50 pm
re: shah #279
``Hari Singh cannot decide for 10 million Kashmiris``.....
neither can 2000 terrorists (of which at least half are probably non Kashmiri). Nor can 10 million Kashmiris unilaterally decide on something that affects 1 billion fellow Indians.
-narain
``Hari Singh cannot decide for 10 million Kashmiris``.....
neither can 2000 terrorists (of which at least half are probably non Kashmiri). Nor can 10 million Kashmiris unilaterally decide on something that affects 1 billion fellow Indians.
-narain
#283 Posted by amit on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
Re:Romair#245
Ayaz Amir is a good journalist but he gets very emotional depending on the existing situation. There is very little apetite in India for a full blown war with Pakistan. The current manouvers are meant to pressure Pakistan to modify its Kashmir policy, at least in its execution with respect to jihadi groups. India has a couple of other cards to play such as cutting off diplomatic ties completely and more importantly, shutting off river waters by suspending the Indus Water treaty. Already India has made some hints in this direction. The Indus water issue has raised alarm bells in Pakistan since it can become very serious for Pakistan. It is the first time India has considered using the water supply as a threat and there is not much that Pakistan can do about it. Besides starving Pakistan of water, it can also lead to a flooding of the Kashmir valley itself.
India, as well as the rest of the world, is going to listen very carefully to what Musharraf says tomorrow. If there is a genuine change in Pakistan, I believe that tensions will reduce significantly. I also feel that at a fundamental level, India does want to resolve the Kashmir issue as long as it can save face in the process. In other words, India has been seeking a compromise for some time, which is why it started the Lahore process in 1998. So far Pakistan has not played ball but all that may change. If the militancy reduces, there is a good chance for the two sides to sit down and hammer out a compromise.
Ayaz Amir is a good journalist but he gets very emotional depending on the existing situation. There is very little apetite in India for a full blown war with Pakistan. The current manouvers are meant to pressure Pakistan to modify its Kashmir policy, at least in its execution with respect to jihadi groups. India has a couple of other cards to play such as cutting off diplomatic ties completely and more importantly, shutting off river waters by suspending the Indus Water treaty. Already India has made some hints in this direction. The Indus water issue has raised alarm bells in Pakistan since it can become very serious for Pakistan. It is the first time India has considered using the water supply as a threat and there is not much that Pakistan can do about it. Besides starving Pakistan of water, it can also lead to a flooding of the Kashmir valley itself.
India, as well as the rest of the world, is going to listen very carefully to what Musharraf says tomorrow. If there is a genuine change in Pakistan, I believe that tensions will reduce significantly. I also feel that at a fundamental level, India does want to resolve the Kashmir issue as long as it can save face in the process. In other words, India has been seeking a compromise for some time, which is why it started the Lahore process in 1998. So far Pakistan has not played ball but all that may change. If the militancy reduces, there is a good chance for the two sides to sit down and hammer out a compromise.
#282 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
Mahim Maher
The Quaid¡¦s 125th birth anniversary was appropriately marked with a lecture by his
best-known biographer
t was February 1948, and a twenty-year-old American marine engineer docked at an Indian port. He saw the ashes of Mahatma Gandhi being immersed in Bombay¡¦s Backbay and a multitude of mourners swim to the white boat hoping to touch the ashes. This sight affected him so much that he decided to abandon marine engineering and spend the rest of his life learning about the subcontinent and its leaders.
Fifty years and seven books later, Professor Stanley Wolpert faced a packed auditorium at Karachi¡¦s Aga Khan University Hospital on the 26th of December, 2001. He quoted from his book, Jinnah of Pakistan: ¡§Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammed Ali Jinnah did all three.¡¨ It was refreshing to hear someone actually articulate the reasons why Pakistanis exalt the Quaid.
The lecture entitled ¡§The Quaid¡¦s Vision of Pakistan¡¨ was held as part of M. A. Jinnah¡¦s 125th birth anniversary celebrations. Last year was dubbed the ¡§Year of the Quaid¡¨ and it was only appropriate to invite his most well known biographer to speak on the occasion. Along with being Jinnah¡¦s biographer, Professor Wolpert is a Professor of History at the University of California, Los Angeles, where he has been teaching socio-political and intellectual history of modern India and Pakistan since his PhD from the University of Pennsylvania in 1959.
It was heartening to see the diverse audience that turned up for the lecture. Young people mingled with veterans and everyone craned their necks to catch a glimpse of Ardeshir Cowasjee, Shams Lakha, Anita Ghulam Ali, Sharifuddin Pirzada and Jamshed Marker, who had taken the time to come from his sickbed. Professor Hussain Jafri, the Convener of the Special Lecture Series, and the President of the University, Dr. Shams Kassim-Lakha, introduced the lecture. Dr. Lakha announced that in light of the ¡§growing acknowledgement of the value of pluralism and diversity for future generations¡¨ the chancellor and board of trustees of the university concluded that there was a need for a secular institute ¡§to enlighten society on the nature and characteristics of Muslim societies, not only in Pakistan, but around the world.¡¨ The Institute for the Study of Muslim Civilisations will open its doors to Muslim and Non-Muslim scholars this month in London with noted Moroccan historian, Dr. Filali Ansari as director.
Professor Wolpert kept the lecture to forty-five minutes, and focused mainly on a brief history of Mohammed Ali Jinnah¡¦s political career and the three priorities he considered essential for the development and progress of the Muslim nation: economic uplift, education and political training. Professor Wolpert steered clear of airing his opinions on the current Indo-Pak acrimony, saying that he only discussed politics on his own soil.
However, Professor Wolpert is no stranger to controversy. His fictionalised biography of Mahatma Gandhi, ¡§Nine Hours to Rama¡¨, was banned in India; and ¡§Jinnah of Pakistan¡¨ was banned in Pakistan. In an interview with Rajeev Srinivasan he was asked whether he was ¡§very disappointed about the books being banned¡¨ and what the reasons may have been. Professor Wolpert answered that: ¡§As for Jinnah, Zia-ul Haq¡¦s advisor on Islamic affairs said the book could not be released in Pakistan, as I talked about how Jinnah enjoyed alcohol and pork. A number of people asked me to delete those references to allow Pakistani publication but I didn¡¦t. The ban was lifted in Benazir Bhutto¡¦s first term, and the book is now in print in Pakistan (and in India). I think the truth about great men needs to be known and discussed. I don¡¦t see anything wrong with their having failings. Makes them more human, and maybe it will make us common folk more tolerant of each others¡¦ faults.¡¨
He told the audience that Jinnah¡¦s portrait still hangs in Lincoln¡¦s Inn, ¡§the only Asian barrister ever to be so highly honoured by benchers of the legal inn that trained William Pitt, Gladstone, Disraeli, Asquith and several other British Prime Ministers.¡¨
Jinnah truly believed that Pakistan was the destiny of the Muslims of India. He challenged the claim that the Indian National Congress and the Raj were the subcontinent¡¦s only two parties. He vehemently stated that the Muslims were the third party and that Congress was nothing but a Hindu body. There was a time when the Muslims of India were like a ¡§no man¡¦s land¡¨ as the professor said. But then he reiterated the Quaid¡¦s belief that ¡§The Musslemans are not a minority. The Musslemans are a nation. The problem of India is not of an intercommunal character but manifestly of an international one.¡¨
Mohammad Ali Jinnah did not visualise a theocratic Pakistan, but a democratic, modern, forward-looking secular homeland for the Muslims of India where every citizen would enjoy equal rights according to the law and where there would be no discrimination on the basis of religion and ethnicity.
¡§Afflicted with fatal lung disease,¡¨ said Mr. Wolpert, ¡§Jinnah knew just how urgent the challenge was that confronted him and his nation in waiting.¡¨
Prof. Wolpert reminded us that the Quaid believed a nation ¡§cannot achieve anything without industry, suffering and sacrifice,¡¨ and that ¡§by going through this crucible of the fire of persecution, by resisting, overcoming, facing these disadvantages, hardships, suffering and maintaining your true convictions and loyalty, a nation will emerge worthy of its past glory and history and will live to make its future history greater and more glorious, not only in India, but in the annals of the world.¡¨ The question now is what Pakistanis and our leaders define as suffering and sacrifice in the present context.
The professor elaborated on the factors and events that gradually formed Jinnah¡¦s vision for Pakistan by quoting from his work the crucial decisions he had taken at various critical junctures. When asked to elaborate the Quaid¡¦s vision of the military¡¦s role and rule in Pakistan, Prof Wolpert sought refuge in a diplomatic reply, saying that ¡§Jinnah was a constitutionalist. It was one of the reasons he became Governor General. He strongly believed that the military should be ready to defend the frontiers of the country. As a person firmly believing in the rule of law, I believe he would have given primacy to civil over military rule¡¨.
He said that Jinnah had laid great emphasis on unity amongst Muslims and had called upon them to depend on themselves rather than looking elsewhere for solutions and blaming others for their problems.
He also dealt with Jinnah¡¦s role as the architect of the Lucknow pact and the efforts made by the Quaid for rapprochement with the Congress after the 1937 provincial elections.
He did not agree with the contention that the Quaid had used the demand for Pakistan as a bargaining chip. ¡§He really believed it was the destiny of the Muslims of the sub-continent.¡¨ He said that the Quaid-e-Azam had not believed in revolutionary violent politics, favouring argument instead.
For all of Wolpert¡¦s erudition, the lecture was somewhat disappointing since all the information provided could just have easily been read in ¡§Jinnah of Pakistan¡¨. Professor Wolpert was perhaps limited by the lecture title, which instead of the obvious ¡§The Quaid¡¦s Vision of Pakistan¡¨, could have been: ¡§How far have we deviated from the Quaid¡¦s vision of Pakistan and what do we do now?¡¨ But that would have been far too outspoken a topic for him. This was borne out when a young woman posed this question, to which Professor Wolpert diplomatically replied: ¡§You may have deviated by 180 degrees on one side of the compass, but I think that many are ready today, and have the leadership to come back. Quaid-e-Azam, Mohammed Ali Jinnah gave you a blueprint as much as he could have given. You must carry on. You must do the job, take up the challenge and carry it forward. Forget about the past 53 years, let the past stay in the past.¡¨ This response was met with a rush of applause from the audience. It was ironic that today an American is offering us the encouragement we yearn for as a nation, encouragement that should come from our own leaders.
The lecture took an unexpected turn during the last few moments when Sharifuddin Pirzada, affectionately called ¡§ Jadoogar of Jeddah¡¨ by Ardeshir Cowasjee because he was the Secretary General of the Organisation of Islamic Countries, delivered his vote of thanks. Just as Mr Pirzada was about to step off the podium a rather agitated member of the audience stood up and started berating him. He accused him of finding loopholes in the law during General Zia-ul-Haq¡¦s time, which allowed Benazir Bhutto to creep back into power. Everyone fell silent as the elderly gentleman continued his harangue, embarrassing everyone present. Mr. Pirzada waited till he had finished and then stepped back up to the microphone and replied that he was a lawyer and it was his job to give advice to whomsoever ¡§could pay his fee¡¨ even if it was the government of Pakistan. This did not pacify the elderly gentleman who eventually had to be escorted out of the auditorium by hospital security.
It must have been a tiring day for Professor Wolpert since he had arrived at the lecture just after a 34-hour flight from the United States. Nonetheless he graciously autographed books for the audience as the auditorium emptied and joined everyone for refreshments where everyone got a chance to mingle and exchange opinions. Ardeshir Cowasjee, when asked what he thought of the lecture, said it was ¡§Excellent!¡¨ and then shook his head soberly, adding: ¡§ Yeh mulk in sub ko muft ka mila.¡¨
The Quaid¡¦s 125th birth anniversary was appropriately marked with a lecture by his
best-known biographer
t was February 1948, and a twenty-year-old American marine engineer docked at an Indian port. He saw the ashes of Mahatma Gandhi being immersed in Bombay¡¦s Backbay and a multitude of mourners swim to the white boat hoping to touch the ashes. This sight affected him so much that he decided to abandon marine engineering and spend the rest of his life learning about the subcontinent and its leaders.
Fifty years and seven books later, Professor Stanley Wolpert faced a packed auditorium at Karachi¡¦s Aga Khan University Hospital on the 26th of December, 2001. He quoted from his book, Jinnah of Pakistan: ¡§Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammed Ali Jinnah did all three.¡¨ It was refreshing to hear someone actually articulate the reasons why Pakistanis exalt the Quaid.
The lecture entitled ¡§The Quaid¡¦s Vision of Pakistan¡¨ was held as part of M. A. Jinnah¡¦s 125th birth anniversary celebrations. Last year was dubbed the ¡§Year of the Quaid¡¨ and it was only appropriate to invite his most well known biographer to speak on the occasion. Along with being Jinnah¡¦s biographer, Professor Wolpert is a Professor of History at the University of California, Los Angeles, where he has been teaching socio-political and intellectual history of modern India and Pakistan since his PhD from the University of Pennsylvania in 1959.
It was heartening to see the diverse audience that turned up for the lecture. Young people mingled with veterans and everyone craned their necks to catch a glimpse of Ardeshir Cowasjee, Shams Lakha, Anita Ghulam Ali, Sharifuddin Pirzada and Jamshed Marker, who had taken the time to come from his sickbed. Professor Hussain Jafri, the Convener of the Special Lecture Series, and the President of the University, Dr. Shams Kassim-Lakha, introduced the lecture. Dr. Lakha announced that in light of the ¡§growing acknowledgement of the value of pluralism and diversity for future generations¡¨ the chancellor and board of trustees of the university concluded that there was a need for a secular institute ¡§to enlighten society on the nature and characteristics of Muslim societies, not only in Pakistan, but around the world.¡¨ The Institute for the Study of Muslim Civilisations will open its doors to Muslim and Non-Muslim scholars this month in London with noted Moroccan historian, Dr. Filali Ansari as director.
Professor Wolpert kept the lecture to forty-five minutes, and focused mainly on a brief history of Mohammed Ali Jinnah¡¦s political career and the three priorities he considered essential for the development and progress of the Muslim nation: economic uplift, education and political training. Professor Wolpert steered clear of airing his opinions on the current Indo-Pak acrimony, saying that he only discussed politics on his own soil.
However, Professor Wolpert is no stranger to controversy. His fictionalised biography of Mahatma Gandhi, ¡§Nine Hours to Rama¡¨, was banned in India; and ¡§Jinnah of Pakistan¡¨ was banned in Pakistan. In an interview with Rajeev Srinivasan he was asked whether he was ¡§very disappointed about the books being banned¡¨ and what the reasons may have been. Professor Wolpert answered that: ¡§As for Jinnah, Zia-ul Haq¡¦s advisor on Islamic affairs said the book could not be released in Pakistan, as I talked about how Jinnah enjoyed alcohol and pork. A number of people asked me to delete those references to allow Pakistani publication but I didn¡¦t. The ban was lifted in Benazir Bhutto¡¦s first term, and the book is now in print in Pakistan (and in India). I think the truth about great men needs to be known and discussed. I don¡¦t see anything wrong with their having failings. Makes them more human, and maybe it will make us common folk more tolerant of each others¡¦ faults.¡¨
He told the audience that Jinnah¡¦s portrait still hangs in Lincoln¡¦s Inn, ¡§the only Asian barrister ever to be so highly honoured by benchers of the legal inn that trained William Pitt, Gladstone, Disraeli, Asquith and several other British Prime Ministers.¡¨
Jinnah truly believed that Pakistan was the destiny of the Muslims of India. He challenged the claim that the Indian National Congress and the Raj were the subcontinent¡¦s only two parties. He vehemently stated that the Muslims were the third party and that Congress was nothing but a Hindu body. There was a time when the Muslims of India were like a ¡§no man¡¦s land¡¨ as the professor said. But then he reiterated the Quaid¡¦s belief that ¡§The Musslemans are not a minority. The Musslemans are a nation. The problem of India is not of an intercommunal character but manifestly of an international one.¡¨
Mohammad Ali Jinnah did not visualise a theocratic Pakistan, but a democratic, modern, forward-looking secular homeland for the Muslims of India where every citizen would enjoy equal rights according to the law and where there would be no discrimination on the basis of religion and ethnicity.
¡§Afflicted with fatal lung disease,¡¨ said Mr. Wolpert, ¡§Jinnah knew just how urgent the challenge was that confronted him and his nation in waiting.¡¨
Prof. Wolpert reminded us that the Quaid believed a nation ¡§cannot achieve anything without industry, suffering and sacrifice,¡¨ and that ¡§by going through this crucible of the fire of persecution, by resisting, overcoming, facing these disadvantages, hardships, suffering and maintaining your true convictions and loyalty, a nation will emerge worthy of its past glory and history and will live to make its future history greater and more glorious, not only in India, but in the annals of the world.¡¨ The question now is what Pakistanis and our leaders define as suffering and sacrifice in the present context.
The professor elaborated on the factors and events that gradually formed Jinnah¡¦s vision for Pakistan by quoting from his work the crucial decisions he had taken at various critical junctures. When asked to elaborate the Quaid¡¦s vision of the military¡¦s role and rule in Pakistan, Prof Wolpert sought refuge in a diplomatic reply, saying that ¡§Jinnah was a constitutionalist. It was one of the reasons he became Governor General. He strongly believed that the military should be ready to defend the frontiers of the country. As a person firmly believing in the rule of law, I believe he would have given primacy to civil over military rule¡¨.
He said that Jinnah had laid great emphasis on unity amongst Muslims and had called upon them to depend on themselves rather than looking elsewhere for solutions and blaming others for their problems.
He also dealt with Jinnah¡¦s role as the architect of the Lucknow pact and the efforts made by the Quaid for rapprochement with the Congress after the 1937 provincial elections.
He did not agree with the contention that the Quaid had used the demand for Pakistan as a bargaining chip. ¡§He really believed it was the destiny of the Muslims of the sub-continent.¡¨ He said that the Quaid-e-Azam had not believed in revolutionary violent politics, favouring argument instead.
For all of Wolpert¡¦s erudition, the lecture was somewhat disappointing since all the information provided could just have easily been read in ¡§Jinnah of Pakistan¡¨. Professor Wolpert was perhaps limited by the lecture title, which instead of the obvious ¡§The Quaid¡¦s Vision of Pakistan¡¨, could have been: ¡§How far have we deviated from the Quaid¡¦s vision of Pakistan and what do we do now?¡¨ But that would have been far too outspoken a topic for him. This was borne out when a young woman posed this question, to which Professor Wolpert diplomatically replied: ¡§You may have deviated by 180 degrees on one side of the compass, but I think that many are ready today, and have the leadership to come back. Quaid-e-Azam, Mohammed Ali Jinnah gave you a blueprint as much as he could have given. You must carry on. You must do the job, take up the challenge and carry it forward. Forget about the past 53 years, let the past stay in the past.¡¨ This response was met with a rush of applause from the audience. It was ironic that today an American is offering us the encouragement we yearn for as a nation, encouragement that should come from our own leaders.
The lecture took an unexpected turn during the last few moments when Sharifuddin Pirzada, affectionately called ¡§ Jadoogar of Jeddah¡¨ by Ardeshir Cowasjee because he was the Secretary General of the Organisation of Islamic Countries, delivered his vote of thanks. Just as Mr Pirzada was about to step off the podium a rather agitated member of the audience stood up and started berating him. He accused him of finding loopholes in the law during General Zia-ul-Haq¡¦s time, which allowed Benazir Bhutto to creep back into power. Everyone fell silent as the elderly gentleman continued his harangue, embarrassing everyone present. Mr. Pirzada waited till he had finished and then stepped back up to the microphone and replied that he was a lawyer and it was his job to give advice to whomsoever ¡§could pay his fee¡¨ even if it was the government of Pakistan. This did not pacify the elderly gentleman who eventually had to be escorted out of the auditorium by hospital security.
It must have been a tiring day for Professor Wolpert since he had arrived at the lecture just after a 34-hour flight from the United States. Nonetheless he graciously autographed books for the audience as the auditorium emptied and joined everyone for refreshments where everyone got a chance to mingle and exchange opinions. Ardeshir Cowasjee, when asked what he thought of the lecture, said it was ¡§Excellent!¡¨ and then shook his head soberly, adding: ¡§ Yeh mulk in sub ko muft ka mila.¡¨
#281 Posted by mfarooqui on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
Sorry, DRUMZ - I forgot to mention the link is called:``songs of love and devotion``
#280 Posted by mfarooqui on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
Chowk Editors and Chowkwallahs:
Apologies for sidetracking this board temporarily, but I have a request of all chowkwallahs:
I don`t know if I am the only one who has this difficulty, but many times on Chowk I`ve wanted to follow more than two reply threads and to have them visible on the screen at the same time. Rather than simply make a request, I`ve tried to solve this, and have put together a sample Chowk site at:
http://members.home.net/qawwalli1/
At the bottom of the page are links to the sample site. This is what you need to click on. To get into it the user name is: concept and the password is also: concept (both lower case). The page that comes up has a link called ``redesigned chowk``.
My humble request is to ask as many of you as possible to look at it and let me know if it just a waste of time or if it really is something useful. If useful, Chowk Editors, you may have it (if you like it of course!)
Now, for DRUMZ (and actually for others who may be interested as well): DRUMZ, a while ago you had made a comment that you did not find Islam deep enough or profound enough. That makes me ask of you a small favor: I`ve provided a link (named ``DRUMZ``) which will take you to an article on the same site. Hope you find it readable enough - I`d really like to hear your comments after you read it. No problem if you don`t (at worst you can always click right out of it!)
For those who explore the site further (there are visual goodies!) A warning!! This is a site that has Flash/audio and needs a cable or fast connection. Please explore, move the mouse around and click away everywhere on the fashion site page.
Apologies for sidetracking this board temporarily, but I have a request of all chowkwallahs:
I don`t know if I am the only one who has this difficulty, but many times on Chowk I`ve wanted to follow more than two reply threads and to have them visible on the screen at the same time. Rather than simply make a request, I`ve tried to solve this, and have put together a sample Chowk site at:
http://members.home.net/qawwalli1/
At the bottom of the page are links to the sample site. This is what you need to click on. To get into it the user name is: concept and the password is also: concept (both lower case). The page that comes up has a link called ``redesigned chowk``.
My humble request is to ask as many of you as possible to look at it and let me know if it just a waste of time or if it really is something useful. If useful, Chowk Editors, you may have it (if you like it of course!)
Now, for DRUMZ (and actually for others who may be interested as well): DRUMZ, a while ago you had made a comment that you did not find Islam deep enough or profound enough. That makes me ask of you a small favor: I`ve provided a link (named ``DRUMZ``) which will take you to an article on the same site. Hope you find it readable enough - I`d really like to hear your comments after you read it. No problem if you don`t (at worst you can always click right out of it!)
For those who explore the site further (there are visual goodies!) A warning!! This is a site that has Flash/audio and needs a cable or fast connection. Please explore, move the mouse around and click away everywhere on the fashion site page.
#279 Posted by shankar on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
Romair,
{{Pakistan needs to take one more step backwards, if needed. India is only harming itself with this war rhetoric.}}
Even if it is a bluff--India has met certain objectives. I dont think Mushy would have arrested the leaders of the Let & JM if he was not pressured by the US. I also dont believe that the US would have pressured Mushy to do so, if they thought India was only bluffing. If anything, the Indian build up did gets 100s of these guys arrested.
Yes, Mushy wants to reign in the extremists that are trying to destabilise Pakistan. But Kashmiri militants are supporting Pakistan`s cause in Kashmir. They are not attacking the Pakistan govt. Just yesterday he calls them ``freedom fighters``. Today he puts them in jail. Why in the world would he do that if it there was no coerction of some sort?!
As far as the ``moral issue`` of Kashmir: Indians dont really CARE if Pakistan thinks she is on the moral highground on this issue. Let me also tell you one brutal truth: the rest of the world (including the Islamic world) doesnt care either. AI, UN & the World Court means JACK S *iT. Now you can lament all you want about how immoral & unfair that is--no cigar.
Fair or Unfair, Moral or Immoral; the REALITY is this:
1)NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY has twisted India`s arm to reconsider her Kashmir policy.
2)UN resolutions get implemented only if superpowers (esp the US) is solidly behind them.
3) The US & Western Europe have repeatedly said & implied that both countries need to fix this. So they have gone out of their way to be as neutral as possible. If anything, when India is balking--the US,Western Europe & even China are not using the ``stick approach`` to India--just a few carrots.
4) India WONT change her policy on Kashmir unless there is strong international diplomatic force applied to her.
5) The vast majority of Indians BELIEVE that Pakistan is at least indirectly responsible for the attack on their Parliament.
6)The attack on their Parliament IS a big deal for Indians.
7) If Kashmiris continue to use a ``low intensity guerella war``; no Indian (including ex-Indians critical of India`s behavior in Kashmir, like me) would want to listen to them. There are more civil, non violent ways to protest your grieviences. A GUERELLA war is BLACKMAIL--pure & simple.
{{Pakistan needs to take one more step backwards, if needed. India is only harming itself with this war rhetoric.}}
Even if it is a bluff--India has met certain objectives. I dont think Mushy would have arrested the leaders of the Let & JM if he was not pressured by the US. I also dont believe that the US would have pressured Mushy to do so, if they thought India was only bluffing. If anything, the Indian build up did gets 100s of these guys arrested.
Yes, Mushy wants to reign in the extremists that are trying to destabilise Pakistan. But Kashmiri militants are supporting Pakistan`s cause in Kashmir. They are not attacking the Pakistan govt. Just yesterday he calls them ``freedom fighters``. Today he puts them in jail. Why in the world would he do that if it there was no coerction of some sort?!
As far as the ``moral issue`` of Kashmir: Indians dont really CARE if Pakistan thinks she is on the moral highground on this issue. Let me also tell you one brutal truth: the rest of the world (including the Islamic world) doesnt care either. AI, UN & the World Court means JACK S *iT. Now you can lament all you want about how immoral & unfair that is--no cigar.
Fair or Unfair, Moral or Immoral; the REALITY is this:
1)NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY has twisted India`s arm to reconsider her Kashmir policy.
2)UN resolutions get implemented only if superpowers (esp the US) is solidly behind them.
3) The US & Western Europe have repeatedly said & implied that both countries need to fix this. So they have gone out of their way to be as neutral as possible. If anything, when India is balking--the US,Western Europe & even China are not using the ``stick approach`` to India--just a few carrots.
4) India WONT change her policy on Kashmir unless there is strong international diplomatic force applied to her.
5) The vast majority of Indians BELIEVE that Pakistan is at least indirectly responsible for the attack on their Parliament.
6)The attack on their Parliament IS a big deal for Indians.
7) If Kashmiris continue to use a ``low intensity guerella war``; no Indian (including ex-Indians critical of India`s behavior in Kashmir, like me) would want to listen to them. There are more civil, non violent ways to protest your grieviences. A GUERELLA war is BLACKMAIL--pure & simple.
#278 Posted by hxn on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
sigalph235 # 255
¡§Irrelevant, sir, given the fact that Kashmir is not an-`other indian state`. ¡§
I¡¦m surprised. I think this might be the first time I¡¦m seeing a post from you that I disagree with. Why isn¡¦t kashmir like any other indian state? Because of the rules of partition? Wasn¡¦t partition itself an absurd exercise?
¡§The only ethical solution to Kashmir, of course, is for all Indian and Pakistani elements to get out¡K¡¨
I¡¦ve always thought this an impossible task ¡V at least as impossible as having pakistan comply with u.n. resolutions for pulling their forces out of POKƒº. Who are kashmiris? Can you tell them by their appearance? I know a lot of lahori punjabi pakistanis who claim to be kashmiri. I know a few indians who claim kashmiri lineage as well. Are kashmiris a specific separate people from others in the region?
¡§Irrelevant, sir, given the fact that Kashmir is not an-`other indian state`. ¡§
I¡¦m surprised. I think this might be the first time I¡¦m seeing a post from you that I disagree with. Why isn¡¦t kashmir like any other indian state? Because of the rules of partition? Wasn¡¦t partition itself an absurd exercise?
¡§The only ethical solution to Kashmir, of course, is for all Indian and Pakistani elements to get out¡K¡¨
I¡¦ve always thought this an impossible task ¡V at least as impossible as having pakistan comply with u.n. resolutions for pulling their forces out of POKƒº. Who are kashmiris? Can you tell them by their appearance? I know a lot of lahori punjabi pakistanis who claim to be kashmiri. I know a few indians who claim kashmiri lineage as well. Are kashmiris a specific separate people from others in the region?
#277 Posted by rsaxena on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
re: stuka
{{There were some really good looking women on the Pakistani side}}
change your name to syed ali bin somethin, throw out that whiskey you love so much, grow a little goat beard and they could be all yours :)
{{There were some really good looking women on the Pakistani side}}
change your name to syed ali bin somethin, throw out that whiskey you love so much, grow a little goat beard and they could be all yours :)
#276 Posted by rsaxena on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
re: tvarad
{{What I have a problem with is someone asking for special treatment just because of their beliefs.}}
...tell that to muslim kashmiris...as much as i hate myself for thinking this, i`m getting sick and tired of their goddamn $hit...`give us this, that, and the other b.c. we are muslims` is essentially what the whole thing boils down to...no non-muslim kashmiri has a death wish of becoming part of another islamic country founded on little else other than religion...
those muslim kashmiris hell bent on living in an exclusively islamic country should be provided indian army helicopters to transport them to pakistan, who am i sure will welcome them with open arms...the land belongs to the minorities as well and it will not be given away....
{{What I have a problem with is someone asking for special treatment just because of their beliefs.}}
...tell that to muslim kashmiris...as much as i hate myself for thinking this, i`m getting sick and tired of their goddamn $hit...`give us this, that, and the other b.c. we are muslims` is essentially what the whole thing boils down to...no non-muslim kashmiri has a death wish of becoming part of another islamic country founded on little else other than religion...
those muslim kashmiris hell bent on living in an exclusively islamic country should be provided indian army helicopters to transport them to pakistan, who am i sure will welcome them with open arms...the land belongs to the minorities as well and it will not be given away....
#275 Posted by rsaxena on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
re: ramair
{{Hypothetically speaking (no offence intended), if to me, you were an idiot, would that actually that you an idiot?}}
incidentally, to me you ARE an idiot, nothing hypothetical about it...
{{India was just another colony in the British empire to many Englishman. Why get independence from British empire?}}
because 15% of britain`s population didn`t consist of indians...that`s why...get it through your porous head and make sure it stays there...that`s the difference...it wasn`t a religious fight....
{{Do you feel you have a right to be the final judge what someone else or something else maybe? If yes, how does one gain such an authority? I would like it also.}}
i personally don`t, but collectively the majority of Indians are the final judges on what happens to J&K...the government of india is their representative and the final judge on J&K...and with the largest and most powerful army in the region, an attractive market for foreign investors, and nukes to defend itself with, no one is going to challenge india viz-a-viz kashmir...that`s reality...you can continue to delude yourself like ylh usually does, but that is ground reality for you...kashmir ain`t going anywhere...the time for redrawing of borders is gone...since you people from the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan don`t care for secularism to understand why your position is wrong, just consider that might is right...and money talks, which india has more of, particularly for others via its markets...
{{Hypothetically speaking (no offence intended), if to me, you were an idiot, would that actually that you an idiot?}}
incidentally, to me you ARE an idiot, nothing hypothetical about it...
{{India was just another colony in the British empire to many Englishman. Why get independence from British empire?}}
because 15% of britain`s population didn`t consist of indians...that`s why...get it through your porous head and make sure it stays there...that`s the difference...it wasn`t a religious fight....
{{Do you feel you have a right to be the final judge what someone else or something else maybe? If yes, how does one gain such an authority? I would like it also.}}
i personally don`t, but collectively the majority of Indians are the final judges on what happens to J&K...the government of india is their representative and the final judge on J&K...and with the largest and most powerful army in the region, an attractive market for foreign investors, and nukes to defend itself with, no one is going to challenge india viz-a-viz kashmir...that`s reality...you can continue to delude yourself like ylh usually does, but that is ground reality for you...kashmir ain`t going anywhere...the time for redrawing of borders is gone...since you people from the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan don`t care for secularism to understand why your position is wrong, just consider that might is right...and money talks, which india has more of, particularly for others via its markets...
#274 Posted by rsaxena on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
re: ylh
{{tsk tsk... its not because Kashmir is a majority Muslim state that it is different. UN Resolutions and the `temp` document of accession grant it a separate special status which has been violated by India. It is a matter of law.. and not religion.}}
....matter of law? pakistan attacks kashmir, violating law, then draws concessions and you think this is a matter of law? big talk about law from a country which has thrown its consitution in the dustbin and has a histroy of being ruled by tinpots....you think any non-muslim in kashmir supports this terrorist movement? NO ... that makes it a matter of religion...
{{By the way, I am sure there are many who would move to a so called `theocratic` state with a moderate non-fundamentalist leadership than stay in a `secular` state with Hindu fundamentalists as its rulers... Ever thought about that?}}
you live in a world of `should-have-beens` and `would-have-beens` and `will-be`s`...take a long hard look at pakistan...it is incapable of sustaining democracy...it has different rules for minorities...one vote is not equal to another...oh wait, but votes don`t matter for jack when your country is ruled by military dictators, so that`s irrelevant anyway, right?...moderate leadership?...yeah, keep supporting the taliban and refuse to condemn honor killings and call yourself moderate...wake up from the dream dude...jinnah is dead...so are his ideals...pakistan is close to dying with higher poverty and illiteracy than india...without the begged-for-dollars thrown pakistan`s way but the US, you think it would`ve continue to sustain itself?...on what?...heroine trade?...
{{But then again ... Ivy league education is no longer what it should be... otherwise why would we have obtuse people like Rsaxena in our world?}}
like you said, rutgers is an Ivy Leagues school so mine had to get kicked to make room...the great state school of the state of new jersey, rutgers def has the best and the brightest...people like you who can`t even deal with reality...people who study econ and history and whatever and are sent to become salespeople at no-name dingholes...
{{tsk tsk... its not because Kashmir is a majority Muslim state that it is different. UN Resolutions and the `temp` document of accession grant it a separate special status which has been violated by India. It is a matter of law.. and not religion.}}
....matter of law? pakistan attacks kashmir, violating law, then draws concessions and you think this is a matter of law? big talk about law from a country which has thrown its consitution in the dustbin and has a histroy of being ruled by tinpots....you think any non-muslim in kashmir supports this terrorist movement? NO ... that makes it a matter of religion...
{{By the way, I am sure there are many who would move to a so called `theocratic` state with a moderate non-fundamentalist leadership than stay in a `secular` state with Hindu fundamentalists as its rulers... Ever thought about that?}}
you live in a world of `should-have-beens` and `would-have-beens` and `will-be`s`...take a long hard look at pakistan...it is incapable of sustaining democracy...it has different rules for minorities...one vote is not equal to another...oh wait, but votes don`t matter for jack when your country is ruled by military dictators, so that`s irrelevant anyway, right?...moderate leadership?...yeah, keep supporting the taliban and refuse to condemn honor killings and call yourself moderate...wake up from the dream dude...jinnah is dead...so are his ideals...pakistan is close to dying with higher poverty and illiteracy than india...without the begged-for-dollars thrown pakistan`s way but the US, you think it would`ve continue to sustain itself?...on what?...heroine trade?...
{{But then again ... Ivy league education is no longer what it should be... otherwise why would we have obtuse people like Rsaxena in our world?}}
like you said, rutgers is an Ivy Leagues school so mine had to get kicked to make room...the great state school of the state of new jersey, rutgers def has the best and the brightest...people like you who can`t even deal with reality...people who study econ and history and whatever and are sent to become salespeople at no-name dingholes...
#273 Posted by arjun_m on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
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#272 Posted by Shah on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
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#271 Posted by Shah on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
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#270 Posted by tvarad on January 12, 2002 2:27:18 am
RE: Reply #: 267 ylh
``tsk tsk... its not because Kashmir is a majority Muslim state that it is different. UN Resolutions and the `temp` document of accession grant it a separate special status which has been violated by India. It is a matter of law.. and not religion.``
Now who`s being naive? This is one of the last ideological battles being fought in the world - and Kashmir is the proxy. The question is whether a Iqbalist/Jinnahist (rhymes with Marxist/Leninist) state is really the utopia that was promised for the Muslims of the sub-continent. As India`s democratic institutions solidify enough to repudiate that idea by providing equal rights/opportunities for the Muslims of India like for everyone else and Pakistan`s institutions wither away from repeated assaults by the army on the people`s will ,this ideology is being relegated to the dustbin of history. The goings on in Kashmir is one of the last gasps of this failed ideology and India will win because of the righteousness of it`s cause.
BTW, regarding Muslims of India don`t take my word for it, just visit. I have been doing it frequently for the last ten years and have seen both the despair of the post Babri Masjid riots and the current race by everyone, including Muslims to better themselves in the liberalized climate. It is no surprise that there has been no major riot in the last decade; people are too busy with work for that. Which proves the point that it is not ideology but opportunity that is important.
As an aside the contractor for some apartments that I am buying happens to be Muslim and he has been deputed to build a spanking new Mosque in my neighborhood. More power to him. And BTW, he starts all of his projects by performing a Hindu style puja! That is India.
``tsk tsk... its not because Kashmir is a majority Muslim state that it is different. UN Resolutions and the `temp` document of accession grant it a separate special status which has been violated by India. It is a matter of law.. and not religion.``
Now who`s being naive? This is one of the last ideological battles being fought in the world - and Kashmir is the proxy. The question is whether a Iqbalist/Jinnahist (rhymes with Marxist/Leninist) state is really the utopia that was promised for the Muslims of the sub-continent. As India`s democratic institutions solidify enough to repudiate that idea by providing equal rights/opportunities for the Muslims of India like for everyone else and Pakistan`s institutions wither away from repeated assaults by the army on the people`s will ,this ideology is being relegated to the dustbin of history. The goings on in Kashmir is one of the last gasps of this failed ideology and India will win because of the righteousness of it`s cause.
BTW, regarding Muslims of India don`t take my word for it, just visit. I have been doing it frequently for the last ten years and have seen both the despair of the post Babri Masjid riots and the current race by everyone, including Muslims to better themselves in the liberalized climate. It is no surprise that there has been no major riot in the last decade; people are too busy with work for that. Which proves the point that it is not ideology but opportunity that is important.
As an aside the contractor for some apartments that I am buying happens to be Muslim and he has been deputed to build a spanking new Mosque in my neighborhood. More power to him. And BTW, he starts all of his projects by performing a Hindu style puja! That is India.
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