The Significant Unit of War

A setback for Pakistan`s position on Kashmir. It will extremely difficult for Pakistan to sponsor more terrorism in Indian Kashmir.

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Hard-line Islamic political party in Kashmir breaks links with Pakistan, militants in political shock

Sun Jun 30, 1:41 PM ET

By MUJTABA ALI AHMAD, Associated Press Writer

SRINAGAR, India - The most influential and hardline Islamic political party in Indian-controlled Kashmir ( news - web sites) announced on Sunday it had severed ties with Muslim militants and Pakistan, into which it has long proposed a merger of the Himalayan region.



Analysts described the announcement as one of the most significant political developments in years in Kashmir — the cause of five decades of tensions between nuclear-armed India and Pakistan and two wars. It was also a major win for New Delhi.

The reason behind the dramatic turnaround by the Jama`at-e-Islami party was not immediately apparent.

``I want to make it clear that we have no connection with the militants or militancy, particularly with the Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen,`` Jama`at`s president, Ghulam Mohammad Bhat, told The Associated Press.

The Hezb-ul Mujahedeen is the biggest of the dozen militant groups which have been fighting India`s military since 1989 to separate Kashmir, or merge it with Pakistan, which also controls part of Kashmir.

An Indian intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Sunday that Jama`at has had close links in the past with the Hezb-ul Mujahedeen, and was suspected of being the militant group`s political face. Many Jama`at members have been arrested or detained over the decade on the suspicion that they were working secretly for the Hezb, the official said.

Jama`at also expressed differences with the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a group of 24 Muslim religious and political groups in Kashmir to which it belongs. The Conference, which opposes Indian control of the region, has boycotted the last elections in the Indian state of Jammu-Kashmir and called for voters to resist going to the polls.

Indian officials have for months asked Kashmiri separatist parties to take part in the elections planned for September or October if they want to prove that they are the true representatives of Kashmiris.

Hurriyat has said it will boycott the upcoming elections, and its leader was not available to comment on Bhat`s announcement.

Bhat said that ``right now`` Jama`at has ``no plans of participating in the polls, but anything can happen in the future.``

He added that his party would not call for a boycott of the elections, which he said would be ``unlawful.``

For five decades, Jama`at has struggled politically for a merger of Jammu-Kashmir, India`s only Muslim-majority state, into Islamic Pakistan.

The Jama`at is the only one of the hard-line Islamic parties in Jammu-Kashmir that has an organized, disciplined, region-wide network and thousands of members spread across the Kashmir Valley.

Its announcement Sunday appeared to reverse all that the party has stood for, for five decades.

One of the group`s longtime senior leaders, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has publicly described himself as a ``proud Pakistani.``

However, on Sunday in Srinagar, the summer capital of Jammu-Kashmir state, Bhat seemed to dismiss the party`s links with Pakistan.

``There is no mention of Kashmir`s accession to Pakistan in our party constitution. We didn`t ever even pass a resolution demanding accession since we have been working here,`` he told reporters.

The ramifications of Bhat`s announcement were unclear. Geelani is in a prison in the eastern Indian city of Ranchi, charged under a tough anti-terrorism law.

In the past, groups or leaders in Kashmir have made announcements, only to reverse them later, sometime the next day. At other times, new factions have formed, or other leaders have said the announcement did not reflect the view of the whole organization.

If Jama`at holds to Bhat`s announcement, it would be a blow to militant groups in the Kashmir Valley, and raise the possibility of the participation by some separatists in the state elections — a huge public relations victory for India.

India accuses Pakistan of sponsoring the 12-year insurgency, which has left more than 60,000 people dead. Islamabad denies the allegation.

Referring to Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf`s regime, Bhat said: ``There is no dictatorship (allowed) in Islam. The people of Pakistan are trying to install a democratic government in the country.``

Musharraf recently proposed changing Pakistan`s constitution to grant himself sweeping additional powers.

Indian political scientist Haseeb Ahmad described the news as ``the biggest gain for the government of India since the onset of the militancy.``

``This is a clear indication that the Jama`at wants to reaccept ... the basic framework of the Indian democratic setup in Kashmir,`` he told The Associated Press. ``This has shaken the edifice on which the secessionist movement rests and is bound to cause more than ripples in the political scenario of Kashmir.``

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020630/ap_wo_en_po/kashmir_political_surprise_2

Ref bong_dongs #: 386

[Have you read Naipual`s ``Beyond Belief`` on Malaysia?]

I did. I was so scared I don`t remember it. I will get the books for my library; I am sure there will be a new issue of all of Naipaul`s books now that he has received the Nobel Prize for Literature.

semipreciousme # 382

Prem:

``Hmmm...this hidden Pakistani battalion may well be a deadly and superior force...but there will be no surrender from our side...

Aakhir woh aadmi kya jo khatarnaak dushman ko dekh kar ghabraa jaye?``

...lol...bring it on...

``Malaysia where public funds are used to build shiny new mosques in every major town is secular.``

If I remember rightly the Malaysian goverment gives 100% subsidy for building a mosque and 50% subsidy for other religious places (temples etc)

Have you read Naipual`s ``Beyond Belief`` on Malaysia?

semipreciousme # 382

Hmmm...this hidden Pakistani battalion may well be a deadly and superior force...but there will be no surrender from our side...

Aakhir woh aadmi kya jo khatarnaak dushman ko dekh kar ghabraa jaye?

Ref headshrinker #: 377

[{{Exactly how many SECULAR Muslim-majority countries are in the world?}}

Gee.. off the top of my head..lets see..

Malaysia, Indonesia & Bangladesh.]

Let us see.

Malaysia where public funds are used to build shiny new mosques in every major town is secular. How many Hindu and Chinese places of worship have they built with government money?

Indonesia where madrassahs have run rampant for the last 30 years where militants actually signed up to fight on the side of Osama bin Laden.

Go back to voodoo.

semi:

yeaaa baybee

LOL

Prem:

``SPM,

Truly, as I mentioned once in connection with somebody else, Pakistan does not deploy its most lethal assets against Indians...``

....you ain` seen nuthin yet....;)....what say anNy?...

Re: Shankar

``...But a 3rd party should ensure that neither India nor Pakistan nor Kashmiri militants start any mischief...``

No third party will be willing to stick around for the long-term. It will have to be done by people with a direct stake in the region (countries like India). Pakistan is too busy trying to stoke up communal passions. Just look at Afghanistan -- what did the ISI spawn there (ethnic cleansing of Tajiks/Hazaras). The international community`s commitment to peace in Afghanistan will be severly tested. Very few countries will stick around for the long run, while carnivorous neighbors will continue probing.

This article from the NY Times is indicative not only of the trouble that has cursed Kashmir, but also gives hope that a non-communal coexistence is possible:

QUOTE

``...Soon the trail through the hills was a sweating caravan of men and women carrying their cherished possessions down to the road, hurriedly. (as they abandoned their homes) ``There is every apprehension of a mass killing here,`` said the dead man`s uncle, P. N. Sharma. Just as sad, in his eyes, was that no one was leaving the Muslim houses...Fakiruddin Gujjar, 40, a Muslim farmer who lives on the next hill, had come to pay his respects at the Sharma home. He had urged them not to leave. But he said he knew that he could not protect them either. ``These are our neighbors; this is our home,`` he said, standing in their courtyard. ``We cannot live without them.``

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/16/international/asia/16KASH.html

Re Shankar

Check out this picture of the blazing inferno

http://www.dawn.com/2002/01/16/top1.htm

`Fire Destroys Records in Interior Ministry`

Looks like saboteurs are out to defy Musharraf`s crackdown by destroying records of militants in Pakistan. This fight that Musharraf has taken on isn`t going to be easy.

re: semipreciousme # 375

SPM,

Truly, as I mentioned once in connection with somebody else, Pakistan does not deploy its most lethal assets against Indians...

Re: Shankar

``...I`m talking about making the IOK & POK, an independant SECULAR country...``

Not being the idealistic dreamer that you are, I would like to point out to you a subtle wrinkle in your vision. THE UNELECTED APHC IS ANYTHING BUT SECULAR. THEIR APOLOGISTS IN PAKISTAN ARE ANYTHING BUT SECULAR. So, who is going to deliver to you the secular, unified Kashmir? Even the Palestinians have a better chance of establishing a secular Palestine.

World public opinion is turning around to accepting the LoC as the border. That solution, too, will leave all unsatisfied, but seems to be the most practical now.

Lastly, what exactly will a secular Kashmir deliver to the Kashmiris that it is not delivering today or promised tomorrow?

``...The human/civil liberties of Kashmiri hindus SHOULD be protected...``

There is a huge difference between `should` and `would`. You did not use the word `would` because doing so will put you in a bind -- you know very well that there is no mechanism that you can propose to guarantee that (not to mention the Ladakhi Buddhists -- their cousins in Tibet are forced to worship Mao, not Dalai Lama). I do not belive in any international agreements that cannot be enforced through military force. Period. The Brits learned this lesson between the two world wars. I can elaborate on this if you so wish.

``...Very frankly, that doesnt make any difference to me...``

Well, then I suppose that you subscribe to the fiction that the world is a perfect place, and everything works out like in fairy tales. To me, it makes a huge difference. It shows that even under the gravest provocation when many 3rd world countries would have resorted to extremely unpleasant means, we maintained our higher moral ground. Next door, China, Pakistan and Afghanistan have all provided less stellar examples.

``...From India`s end, its time we reigned in the Hindutva SOB`s...``

Agree with you on that.

Harimou,

{{Exactly how many SECULAR Muslim-majority countries are in the world?}}

Gee.. off the top of my head..lets see..

Malaysia, Indonesia & Bangladesh. Dont point out violent incidents against minority religions in those countries. If you go by that, India is hardly secular.

You have pointed out a basic myth in your post:

Pakistan & China will not rest until India is dismembered or annexed. Thats the propaganda that the jehadis & RSS want to cram down everyone`s throats. They thrive on people`s paranoia & insecurity. Dont you see how Pakistanis worry that India has never accepted Partition & wants to break up or annex Pakistan?!

After Mushy`s speech, are there riots going on in Pakistan? There were more protests when Mushy sided with the US, against the Taleban. China & India are forging closer ties & working out their boundary disputes through dialogue. I am convinced that the majority of Pakistanis are eager to live in peace with Indians & vice versa.

Now that S.Asia is nuclear; war is & should be unthinkable. Our countries will NEVER progress as long as the threat of war persists.

We are always made to believe that the majority of people in these countries would want war. NOT TRUE. Thats the propaganda that the jehadis & RSS want to foster. If Pakistan reigns in the jehadis, its up to India to marginalise the RSS.

For once in your life, try & give some credit to human beings & see them beyond hindus & muslims. Am I wasting my breath on you?

veeresh

“No elected government in India can do do-do to the madarsas what Musharraf is planning to do in Pakistan!! So, further ergo ergo, the BJP needs Musharaf and Benazir to achieve some of its objectives”

RSaxena

“can you please find me an indian who, as you claim above, `excuses the rape and pillage`

….if you re-read what i wrote, it says ‘excuse the rape and pillage so lightly’….ie…i can understand indians getting livid at jihadis killing people etc…but when it comes to the indian army, more than once i’ve seen ppl here dismissing it as collateral damage..

“...this is one of those watermelon-sized myths pakis blurt out of habit...what do you want indians to do?...the army cannot leave kashmir until the jehadis are gone``

….i’m not saying anything about the army leaving…if they’re there, they should at least try to conduct themselves as the professional army they are instead of lowering themselves to the level of feral jehadis running wild…

“...and there have been military trials and convictions of soldiers on rape charges...”

….as indeed there should be….when you’re a secular democracy, you need to be held up to certain standards…so, i’m assuming the convictions of indian soldiers on rape charges is acting as a deterrent for others….i don’t think i have to tell you that being violated like that is one of the worst things that can be done to a woman….it’s inexcusable…

Ref headshrinker #: 373

[Wait a sec! Thats not what I said. The Partition is over, finished. I`m talking about making the IOK & POK, an independant SECULAR country. The Kashmiri pandits have to go back too. I`m not talking about making another Islamic republic. The human/civil liberties of Kashmiri hindus SHOULD be protected. Monitors like AI, & UN should remain for an unspecified peroid & some sort of deal to settle disputes should be made to ensure that no side gets away with mischief.]

Exactly how many SECULAR Muslim-majority countries are in the world?

Let me give you a hint. It is an integer less than 1.

Another thing: Look at the map that Fox Network uses or any relief map. You can clearly see the mountains separating Kashmir valley from India. You want a thousand Kargils bearing down on Punjab? Give up all of Jammu and Kashmir to an ``independent`` country whose primary routes (meaning, through the river valleys) are from Pakistan. You will have your thousand Kargils.

There is more than the ``needs`` of Kashmiris at stake here. It is called the security of India.

How do you think the Chinese kicked India`s butt in 1962? They held the high ground.

Go back to voodoo.

shammi,

{{Yes indeed -- it will, and it already is. What is even more haunting is what granting `self-determination` on the basis of religion, and religion alone. Conceding that will haunt India like nothing else, and give a shot in the arm to the RSS and their compatriots. Will you find another Gandhi to control them?}}

Wait a sec! Thats not what I said. The Partition is over, finished. I`m talking about making the IOK & POK, an independant SECULAR country. The Kashmiri pandits have to go back too. I`m not talking about making another Islamic republic. The human/civil liberties of Kashmiri hindus SHOULD be protected. Monitors like AI, & UN should remain for an unspecified peroid & some sort of deal to settle disputes should be made to ensure that no side gets away with mischief.

I guess when I pray for ``ordinary Kahmiris``-I`m speaking on behalf of Kashmiris of ALL religions. When violence is RENOUNCED by ALL sides; anything is possible. But a 3rd party should ensure that neither India nor Pakistan nor Kashmiri militants start any mischief.

{{Despite all that has happened in Kashmir, how many refugees have crossed across the border to Pakistan in over ten years? Less than 10,000. How many did the same in Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnya? In the hundreds of thousands, millions.}}

Very frankly, that doesnt make any difference to me. Wrong is wrong--whether it happens to one person or a billion. Are you using this point to justify that ``our abuses are less abusive than their abuses?`` C`mon..

So Kashmiri independance means that Pakistan will have to give up their side of Kashmir too. I`m the first one to say that Pakistan has lost her moral & legal right to Kashmir too.

Kashmiris themselves will have to give up something too.. If majority want to join Pakistan--too bad; its either independance from BOTH countries--or nothing. Thats the ``punishment`` for joining the Pakistani jehadis. They SHOULD understand that its one thing to ask for freedom--but if they do it by VIOLENT means, like these past 11 yrs, they TOO have lost the moral right to get EXACTLY what they want.

Theres no point in squabbling WHO`S MORE AT FAULT. If you delve into the ``fault`` business, everyone becomes hurt & defensive & the problem NEVER gets solved.. If there is a problem, EVERY party should get away from the ``fault business`` & acknowlege that every party is wrong--so ``blame `` is a moot issue. ALL 3 SIDES should face the stick; because if a solution is found, there are plenty of carrots for everyone to share. The PERFECT solution is where all 3 sides are denied everything they want.

What Mushy has said is bold & statesmanlike. The whole world has applauded his speech (India too, albiet grudgingly). Every country will HOLD Pakistan to this speech. Now is the time when all sides head towards the light at the end of the tunnel.

From India`s end, its time we reigned in the Hindutva SOB`s. They will DESTROY S.Asia. India has been able to wriggle out of a settlement in Kashmir by blaming the behavior of GoP & the militants. If they stop the violence (& if a 3rd party ensures that nodoby can create mischief & blame someone else)--India HAS to make concessions. If India doesnt ; then she has only herself to blame.

Re: Shankar

``...This (Kashmir) is going to haunt India for the rest of history...``

Yes indeed -- it will, and it already is. What is even more haunting is what granting `self-determination` on the basis of religion, and religion alone. Conceding that will haunt India like nothing else, and give a shot in the arm to the RSS and their compatriots. Will you find another Gandhi to control them?

Despite all that has happened in Kashmir, how many refugees have crossed across the border to Pakistan in over ten years? Less than 10,000. How many did the same in Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnya? In the hundreds of thousands, millions. Heck, nearly 20,000 fled from Bangladesh to India in the weeks after the election of Khaleda Zia. This is an important test - much like the street price of crack to determine the efficacy of drug interdiction measures is.

Lastly, remember what Gen. Sherman did to Atlanta in the Civil War. Nothing of the sort has happened in Kashmir. Did the South and the North reconcile? Did Punjab reconcile with the `rest of India`? Did the Tamil separatists of the 60s? the Gurkha National Liberation Front? the All Assam Students Union? The Mizo National Front? the list could on...

Re: YLH

I read clause 7 -- it does not even use the word `temporary`. All it says it that this clause will not affect future relations with India under the (yet to be drafted) Constitution of India.

Rsridhar, Romair, prem

Re Shankar

This person, Shankar, has a real problem - he is brutally honest -

Even a person as mindles as me, as recognized his disablity.

re:Reply #: 368

Romair,

I seem to be chasing your post. I hope you do not mind.

Yes, Shanker is making all the right noices that pleases you and other Pakistanis. Let it also go on record that i am for peace in Kashmir as per the wishes of Kashmiris. In what form that will come will have to be decided. But i put a rider which is: the violence must end from both sides viz from the militants and from the Indian army. Since Army came to Kashmir as a reaction to militancy in the valley, one hopes that once this violence abates, army will leave the state and let Kashmiris decide their own fate.

Self-determination conjures up an image of seperation of the state from the Indian Union. Best way would be for each side (Indian and Pakistani Kashmir)to put democratic govts in place and prepare public opinion for their ultimate merger. Nothing done in haste is likely to succeed. I fear BJP has different ideas. That is why it should never get an absolute majority in the parliament. Its coalition party members keep its fundamentalist agenda in check.

I too like you dream of a common South Asian market. Countries in South Asia may remain as distinct political entities but we can have free borders, free exchange of artists, intelligenctia, students etc. Sky is the limit. Imagine Pakisanis working in Bangalore or a Delhitie working in Lahore. How much goodwill this will generate.

Sridhar

shankar #365: Thank God someone from India has spoken. More power to you. I take back my words on the Sopranos. You need to watch it more often.

Everything you have stated is dead on target. May the guiding light of everyone be human rights and morality, and not politics, religion, or forced geographical statehood.

I hope to see a South Asia, like a European Union, someday. Where every group that wants geographical and political independence is allowed to do so peacefully, and where every group voluntarily becomes a part of one giant economic union, with limited or no visas, and maximum trade.

It is much easier for me to go to Dhaka now and open up an office there, then it would have been in 71, when it was a part of Pakistan. So why should I complalin about an independent Bangladesh. Similarly, is it easier for an Indian to visit an independent Kashmir as a tourist, or is it easier for India to visit Kashmir right now?

The Western world gave up on forced geographic unions after WWII. Just like communism, fascism, permanent dictatorships, 8-track tapes, and Betamax video cassettes, it is a failed concept. It is about time South Asians realized it. What catastrophe will befall India, if it lets go of a valley which is less than a few thousand square miles. Rest assured, India will not fall apart.

Musharraf has literally stuck his neck deep into the guillotine to create peace in South Asia. He is perhaps the most likely man to get assasinated in the world, since the Afghan war started. Even more so now, after his actions against religious extremists. The brother of Pakistan`s interior minister (the main person targeting the extremist groups in Pakistan) was a philathripist. He was assasinated a few days ago. I wouldn`t be surprised if the same thing happens to Musharraf.

I am hoping to hear a statement from Vajpayee, that India no longer consders Kashmir an, ``atut-ang.`` After that, there are a million and one ways to solve the Kashmir problem.

Hopefully, Kashmiris will get their right of self-determination soon, within my mother`s lifetime, who still wants to move back to her house in Srinigar, from where she barely escaped in the late 40s.

shankar # 365

Shankar, we are not in disagreement. As I mentioned once to Studebaker, among us Indians I am willing fully to acknowledge the ENTIRE range of possibilities for Kashmir, including their going their own way. Every violation of human dignity in Kashmir, like anywhere else, is one too many, and should be investigated, and the guilty should be given an exemplary punishment. I dont give a damn for what human rights organizations or anybody else says, we in India, ourselves, should be strong, honest, and moral enough not to brook any criminality.

As I have mentioned before, I lived in Kashmir valley for a brief peirod when I was a mid-teen. I developed friendships and bonds that lasted years after I left the place. Under normal circumstances, I would be a passionate, if not as eloquent, a champion for indigenous Kashmiris as you.

Hoever, I am unwilling to accord the same degree of respect and consideration to Jihadi zombies and their sponsorers as I would to the ordinary people of Kashmir. To these thugs, I can offer nothing but an unshakeable, relentless, iron fist.

It is a personal shortcoming of mine, Shankar. Beside my ``normal`` self that attempts to be reasonable, cooperative, and even excessively generous if need be, I have a far darker side...one so hard it is almost brutal...angry ..animal-like. It is unreasonable, and demands unreasonable attention. There is no way this side is going to be bombed into dialogue.

Shammi

Read clause 7 of the Temporary Document of Accession and enlighten me. In any event lets face the facts... Kashmiris dont want to be part of India.. hence end of story.

Prem,

{{Let me just say that Indians do not see themselves primarily up against gun-toting crazed jihadis, but up against people like romair, hobbyty, ali1, and urstruly. And sure as hell, we will never give an inch so long as these people are involved.}}

Its one thing to oppose jehadis or militancy or even Romair. But rape, torture, killing of civilians in jail cells etc etc is no excuse. Indians were outraged at what the West Pakistani soldiers did to the E.Pakistani civilians. Where is our outrage now? Thats what Romair is saying (among other things). I have absolutely NO argument about that point.

This is going to haunt India for the rest of history--that we turned a blind eye to what AI says. In fact, we give lip service & feeble excuses that ``there will be an investigation`` & nothing really happens. Or, the unkindest cut of all--``fighting a guerella war means that sometimes human rights abuses will occur``. Everytime this abuse happens, Kashmiris hate Indians more & more. It just fuels their desire for independance. This is not about fighting Pakistan. Pakistan is not the issue--its only an excuse for us to justify something that ABSOLUTELY CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED.

UN monitors, AI, Western press SHOULD be allowed into Kashmir. Personally, Kashmir is a lost cause for India (or Pakistan). Our behaviour is absolutely undefendable. We have LOST the moral right to hold on to Kashmir--too much sin has been commited by India in these last 10-11 yrs. Our ``legal`` right to Kashmir was always extremely tenuous, at best.

If Mushy is able to hold back the cross border infiltration & the local Kashmiris stop violence & resort to non violent civil protests, India will HAVE to give up Kashmir. But I dont trust the BJP or their Hindutva M-Fers. They will kill civilians & blame it on the militants; to perpetuate India`s hold on Kashmir.

India is NOT going to change; unless a third party twists her arm. We are too steeped in our hypocritical sanctimoniousness to be introspective. In fact, Indians, even moderates have now become hawkish because the BJP has very astutely blamed Pakistan for all the problems in Kashmir & very effectively swept all our sins under the rug. Its no secret that the RSS would rather have all the Kashmiri muslims migrate to Pakistan than give up Kashmir. In fact, I think they would prefer it.

Mark my words, the MOST dangerous force that faces India is the rising strenght of the RSS. They are more dangerous than all the Pakistani-backed militants & the Pakistani nuclear bombs. They are able to successfully paint Pakistan as the villan, they pull the wool over the eyes of Indians--esp hindus. Its like Hitler capitalising on the German sense of humiliation & blaming the Jews for all their problems. Germans were a much more educated & liberal society than Indians will ever be. If Germans were whipped into an insane destructive frenzy, I will guarantee you, so will hindus. Thats what the ideology of Hindutva is all about.

What concerns me is why the rest of the world (esp the Islamic world) has been so silent? If Pakistan screams about human rights abuses in Kashmir, it falls on deaf ears in the world. I think its because Pakistan has zero credibility to take a ``moral`` or ``legal`` stance. What the HECK is the OIC doing? Have they lost their minds? The fact that they scream about the Palestinians & just murmur about Kashmiris is unconscionable(?sp).

Why the HECK is the US & Western Europe or their press so muted in their outrage? Why is India given such a wide berth? The US & Western Europe--govt & press, slammed the Serbs & the Russians (in Chechnia). AI & International press were not given access by the Serbians & Russians either. These are questions I`m unable to answer. I`ve asked these questions to Pakistanis & theyve been unable to answer--to my satisfaction--at least.

Prem, you are one of the most moderate Indians on Chowk. Not that it makes a difference in the ``real world``. But in Chowk, at least, its time some of us Indians stood up & acknowleged something that should be so blatant--India`s human rights abuses in Kashmir are INEXCUSABLE & a SIN that we will have to live with, for an eternity.

I hope & pray, everyday, that one day God is going to listen to the cries of the ordinary Kashmiris & remove the scourge of India & Pakistan from their beautiful land PERMANENTLY.

re RSaxena and Kashmir

I think you have this Glen fellow working for you to destroy any possibility of a genuine self-determination for Kashmiris :) With an attitude, logic (or lack thereof) and verbage like that, God help Kashmiris from being sucked dry by Pakistan, India, and China.

SPM,

You can see how strong emotions on both sides are when it comes to Kashmir. So much so that both Indians and Pakistanis are willing to fight to the last Kashmiri. I am sure it is something that makes neither Indians nor Pakistanis proud; nor does the conflict bring pleasure to anyone, Indians, or Pakistanis.

Given this impasse, I have repeatedly, and with much humility, suggested that we forget about `solving` the Kashmir `problem,` and move on to the task of governing our nations, and taking care of our, and Kashmiri, lives. That is, shift the focus from the business of killing to the business of living, even if imperfectly.

That approach will leave everybody a bit unhappy - Pakistanis won`t get the whole of Kashmir, Indians won`t get the whole of Kashmir, and Kashmiris won`t get their separate country.

Instead of fighting endlessly for a cause in which everybody has an equally strong pig-headed `principled stand,` we should aim for a more limited aim: securing peace, and equal rights, and respectful living for Kashmiris within the frameworks of democratic India, and democratic Pakistan.

SPM, like you perhaps, I was brought up believing that the WHOLE of Kashmir was ours. So the prospect of leaving ANY part of Kashmir with Pakistan is not easy on my emotions either, but that is ok...I don`t own the world, and it is not worth fighting with Pakistanis and the Chinese for control over the whole of Kashmir when we have other huge problems to solve.

Mutual compromise on this matter for which no easy solutions exist is the only solution. For, violence is NOT going to make anybody change their minds.

RSaxena

re: dost-mittar

well-said...every argument pakistanis put forth, can be shot down very, very easily...and you will rarely find a pakistani willing to respond then...

MAY BE PAKISTANIS DONT THINK OF YOU IMPORTANT ENOUGH AFTER PRESENTING THERE CASE IN UNO DIRECTLY WHERE IT MATTERS.SILENCE IS NOT ADMISSION OF GUILT .

1) hold a plebiscite

- with the valley cleansed of non-muslim kashmiris, how fair can a goddamn plebiscite be? and will pakistan go and take Chinese-occupied Kashmir so there can be one there too?

NO BODY IS STOPPING PUNDITS TO COME BACK FOR LEGITIMATE PLEBESCITE.TRYING TO USE EXCUSE OF CIVIL WAR GOING ON IS LIKE MUSLIM SAYING WE ARE 70,OOO (ATRITION,DEAD)LESS VOTE & IF YOU TAKE THERE OFF SPRING IN 13 YRS WOULD BE 18 IN ANOTHER 5 YEARS.BUT ARGUING LIKE THAT IS SEEN AS CHARACTERSISTIC OF ATTITUDE WHICH IS THE REASON OF CIVIL WAR .

2) india took kashmiri land

- but it`s OK for pakistan to give some to China?

SO BY THAT ARGUMENT INDIA TOOK FROM PORTUGAL GOA HYDERABAD FROM NIZAM,SIKKIM JUNAGARH.. .DO YOU HAVE CLAIM TO POK ? IF NOT THEN ITS NOT INDIAS BUSINESS.YOUR ARGUMENT IS ALWAYS CLAIMING LARGE VALLEY FOR FEW MILES OR THOUSAND PUNDIT MIGRATION FOR NAGATING MILLIONS OF KASHMIRIS VOTES .I UNDERSTAND IT, HOPE YOU TOO.

3) human rights violations in kashmir

- you start a war by sending terrorists, and complain about human rights violations? ... why were people vacationing in kashmir 15 years ago in relative peace? ... why was there no army there? ... stop the terror, and the army wil go home too ... it`s that simple.

THE HINDUTVA INFLUENCE STARTED IT IN 89.THAT WAS THE TIME WHEN BJP WAS NOT IN POWER BUT BUILDING ITS POSITION TO TAKE OVER GOVT WHICH NOW THEY HAVE.BABRI INCIDENT WAS IN 92 ALL PRECIPITATED BY SANGH PARIVARS & LIKE MINDED GOV.SAXSENA (hope u r just nick or not related to him),jAGmOHON ,ETC.ETC.

4) india got independence from britain, so should kashmir

- britain did not have a 15% indian population like india has a 15% muslim population. if those muslims can be indian, so can kashmiris.



I dont understand .kashmir was not union of india .it was princely state riyasate kashmir .you must be out of your mind to equate indian muslim with kashmir .what azam garh muslim or mumbai muslim have to do with kashmiri muslim.THE REASON KASHMIR WANT PLEBESCITE NOT BECAUSE ITS MUSLIM.ALTHOUGH BEING MUSLIM ETHNIC PUNJABI PAKHTOON etc like they are connected to those north west frontier provinces.

THERE IS NO SIMILARITY BETWEEN MUSLIMS OF KERALA WITH KASHMIRIS .what are you saying 500 million muslims in indian subcontinent are similar ,despite the fact that Pakistan is only where muslims were 80-90% It was the % PERCENTAGE -criteria NOT muslim criteria .EVEN IF BENGAL WAS 60% muslim it did not beconme Pakistan because only overwhelmingly area with 90% population muslims became pakistan........to be contd...

Prem

take it easy on yourself - just as it is OK to be right, it`s OK to be wrong. We all learn by being wrong - ya cain`t learn zilch being right. ``The amn who welcomes and acts on criticism will prize it above friendship``

The cure for being angry: ``The Producers`` with Zero Mostel - now available on VHS at BUTTbuster!

Woody Allen`s ``Bananas`` - or if tears and the ``human predicament`` do it for you Majid Majidi`s ``Color of God``. Also a picture of F. Murray Abraham`s face; such a great face.

easy days!

re: semipreciousme

{{…you know, that’s one thing i’ve never understood…i can understand the indian population getting worked up about the jihadis in kashmir, and about how they’ll never allow another partition, but it’s pretty surprising how they excuse the rape and pillage done by the army to ppl they deem as their OWN, so lightly….}}

can you please find me an indian who, as you claim above, `excuses the rape and pillage`...this is one of those watermelon-sized myths pakis blurt out of habit...what do you want indians to do?...the army cannot leave kashmir until the jehadis are gone...and there have been military trials and convictions of soldiers on rape charges...

as for curbs on kashmiris` liberties, that is a necessity of war...furthermore, to me a kashmiri who houses and feeds a militant deserves a bullet between his eyes as much as the militant does...as does any indian supporting treason...

btw, romair`s comment about the ``Hindu Army`` shows him to be the retard he is, yet again...a large part of india`s army in kashmir is Muslim and Sikh...much of the local police force in Kashmir is Muslim...there will never be peace on the subcontinent until pakis understand this about india...it is a VERY different place from pakistan...

hobbyty # 356

anger, anger, anger....I need to get anger out of my system...apologies, dear Hobbyty....I/we shouldn`t personalize issues...I have nothing personal against any of the gentlemen in that list...just the ideas...and those ideas live and die irrespective of the people.

Regards.

Semipreciousme 350 & prem 354

SMP, What prem is saying ``when pigs will fly`` or ``it has the same chances as as a smow flake in hell``

Prem

Why so hostile amigo? - Reason, reason is good.

Check out the taliban board.

Let a thousand flower bloom! In pluralistic, tolerant, open societies - differences of opinion are not reason for the suspension of conscience.

Re: romair

``...I have never argued that Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir is correct...``

But, President Musharraf says that `Kashmir runs in our blood`. Do you realize the contradiction there?

semipreciousme # 350

``it’s pretty surprising how they excuse the rape and pillage done by the army to ppl they deem as their OWN, so lightly….``

SPM, Indian`s DON`T excuse the ``rape and pillage`` done by the army in Kashmir lightly. There are many many many Indians who are anguished by the tough choices India has to make in Kashmir. But those choices lead to no moral confusion in our minds since we see the problem of Kashmir in a completely different way.

Ah, we have gone over these reasons many many times before. Let me just say that Indians do not see themselves primarily up against gun-toting crazed jihadis, but up against people like romair, hobbyty, ali1, and urstruly. And sure as hell, we will never give an inch so long as these people are involved.

Were the tragedy of Kashmir delinked from such people, things may take a different shape...but then that pehaps will never happen...

Re: Romair

``... when they (Indians) are willing to accept accusations against Pakistan, without proof?...``

It hurts Pakistan`s case when unsavory characters after having been released from jail as a result of an aircraft hijacking sport guns on the back of pickup trucks, call for violence on specific civilians and institutions throughout India. The burden of proof falls when these things go on unabated. Likewise, if India had private armies openly calling for targetting of specific civilians and institutions (Pakistan equivalent of Red Fort, Parliament, etc.) in the media, then Pakistan, too, would have had a strong case against India.

RSaxena # 348

``... why was there no army there? ...``

Although nowhere near as heavy as today, the presence of Indian army in Indian Kashmir was quite significant even 15 years ago. Similarly, Pakistani Kashmir has always had a heavy concentration of Pakistani armed forces.

What happened 15 years ago was a tragic alignment of ill stars for both India and Pakistan. The Congress government in India mishandled the situation in Indian Kashmir, just as they had been doing in other parts of India, and the Pakistani army saw an unprecedented opportunity to use the enormous, low-cost, jihadi ``assets`` freed up from Afghanistan to do a Kabul on Srinagar.

The rest is history. 70,000 dead. 80,000 dead. And endless moralizing hot air.

Romair:

“They are supporting an almost completely Hindu Army`s killing of tens of thousands of Muslims in India`s only Muslim majoirty province.”

…you know, that’s one thing i’ve never understood…i can understand the indian population getting worked up about the jihadis in kashmir, and about how they’ll never allow another partition, but it’s pretty surprising how they excuse the rape and pillage done by the army to ppl they deem as their OWN, so lightly….

Prem

“Neither you nor Pakistan will ever have a better opportunity. From what I can tell, most Pakistanis are with you.”



…pretty much…on bbc, right after the speech, they had reactions from ppl in pak…as one man put it:….”we are 100% agree with president musharraf”…went on a picnic yesterday with family and a lot of family friends…..main topic was, of course, the speech….everybody agreed wholeheartedly with it…this british-born-and-bred aunty who kept gushing about him....then there was this old uncle, an ex-army man who must’ve been pushing 70, who kept going on and on about how the army’s always been unfairly maligned….and that it was the bureaucrats that were to blame…even went as far as to say that if a war did start, they’d be the first one to run…tried reasoning with him, but that was one feisty uncle…

Stuka:

``SPM: You live in Lahore right? So you can come to the border whenever you want right? That`s cool I think.``

....cool?...more as in the first in the line of fire if war starts...

``I really enjoyed my trip to Amritsar, with Punjabi being spoken all around, I felt like it`s where I belong. Dinner at a place called Bhrawan Da Dhaba, with a next door restaurant called Brother`s Restaurant owned by the same people. Anyway, tonite`s my last night in New Delhi. I fly out tommorow night, and on Wednesday, it`ll be back to listening to harsh Irish accents :(``

....yeah, amritsar is on my list of places to visit in india....if, and when i suppose....

``Is your cousin in the AirForce? I curse the Jehadi types all the time, but I have a lot of respect for the uniformed personnel of every country including yours. I sincerely believe that the chance of war has receded for the time being, and I hope your aunt doesn`t worry too much.``

...yeah, he`s in the airforce....telling my aunt not to worry is like telling urstruly/jay not to be so bigoted....it don`t work...:)

re: dost-mittar

well-said...every argument pakistanis put forth, can be shot down very, very easily...and you will rarely find a pakistani willing to respond then...

1) hold a plebiscite

- with the valley cleansed of non-muslim kashmiris, how fair can a goddamn plebiscite be? and will pakistan go and take Chinese-occupied Kashmir so there can be one there too?

2) india took kashmiri land

- but it`s OK for pakistan to give some to China?

3) human rights violations in kashmir

- you start a war by sending terrorists, and complain about human rights violations? ... why were people vacationing in kashmir 15 years ago in relative peace? ... why was there no army there? ... stop the terror, and the army wil go home too ... it`s that simple.

4) india got independence from britain, so should kashmir

- britain did not have a 15% indian population like india has a 15% muslim population. if those muslims can be indian, so can kashmiris.

Shankar #343: ``Sure it does; if it is absolutely convinced India is behind it. Its OK to declare war too.``

Alright, so lets agree that this should then be the standard: Anytime there is domestic terrorism, each country has a right to pile up forces against the other. I hope you do realize that there is a big difference between conventional war and nuclear war. Pakistan and India can go thru only so many Cuban missile crises, before they blow each other up. In 65 and 71, Pakistan could not blow India up, but India could, in a long war, blow up Pakistan. So the situation wasn`t as dangerous as today. But now Pakistan can blow up India also.

I would say, on the average, there is one terrorist act per week in South Asia (and I am not even including the biggest hub of suicide bombing in the world, Sri Lanka). So that means, there will be potentially 52 possible nuclear wars. Since a precedent has now been set, I give India and Pakistan two years, before we blow each other up.

It is this precendent that I am more afraid of, than the current pile-up of Indian forces.

`` guess you believe the chicken came before the egg & I believe the egg came before the chicken...``

I don`t believe the chicken came before the egg, or vice versa. I just think we should just ask the chicken itself, when if arrived, instead of trying to figure it out ourselves.

``Sopranos is on.``

No wonder Indians are becoming so violent. They watch Sopranos the whole day. Whatever happened to watching Raj Kapoor and Nargis. Violent Indian used to be an oxymoron. Just like white guys don`t look good when they rap, Indians don`t look too good when they try to act tough :=)

If you get some time tonight, do go to www.pakistanvision.com and view the video of News Night with Talat Hussain, with Imran Khan, Asghar Khan etc. I would be interested in your views. Sopranos is not as important under the current situation.

re:Reply #: 340

Romair,

When Taliban and OBL asked for proof, did USA furnish proof? Why do you think US did not bother to furnish proof. If you call a thief a thief, what do you think will be a thief`s response?

It is stupid to furnish proof to Pakistan about something that is a given. Pakistani men captured in Afghanistan have all been telling the same story: they were trained by ISI, Pak army in Taliban camps. Many of them have seen action in Kashmir. That is the proof for you. Do you seriously believe India staged this? There is no doubt that terrorists attacked the parliament. The question is: Did Mushy know about this beforehand or he did not know. Finally, it does not matter. Indians are only questioning Pakistan`s covert and overt complicity in the matter. Such support has resulted in a number of attacks on India including the one on the Indian parliament. Even if Mushy had nothing to do with this, he is still culpable for having followed a policy that encourages such attacks. Indians are only questioning the Pakistani policy whose latest and the most ghastly manifestation was the Dec 13 attack.

Besides, i do not think US or any other country has demanded to see the proof. When Jaswant Singh was in US after the Sept 11 attack, one media person asked him why India supported US without looking into the proof of OBL`s involvement. JS said that the attack on the twin tower has OBL written all over. Similar thing can be said about the attack on the Indian parliament. It has ISI written all over it.

Sridhar

Romair #340
Re proof. Apparently, Mr Cowasjee is saying in the Dawn that India engineered the Parliament attack because no photographs of the attackers were realised. The previous week, one Bilal Siddiqui in the Friday Times alleged the same thing saying that an Indian friend had mailed him saying the Times of India had published the photographs of the five attackers on the front page, alongside the papers Eid greetings. He seemed to think the juxtaposition of 5 dead faces of `Muslims`(how did Mr Siddiqui know they were Muslims, (does he have proof, do you think?) and Eid greetings to Indian readers showed India`s ill intent ).
Just a suggestion. Why doesnot Mr Cowasjee get in touch with Mr Bilal Siddiqui and sort it out?

Romair,

{{Could you please email to me the proof that has been sent to all the Indians.}}

Know what?! I was just about to e-mail you the proof & oops--the dog ate it!

Havent we seen this movie before?

I mean havent we argued this before? Yes, yes, yes & a 1000 times yes--India should have sent proof. Just as you claim you are not the spokesman for the GoP, I am not for the GoI. They have used the same excuse as the US. So yes, I personally think GoI should send evidence to Pakistan.

However, I believed the US govt re OBL`s hand on 9/11 & I believe the GoI in that GoP is INDIRECTLY responsible for 12/13.

Now if you or any Pakistanis then conclude that I & other Indians have lost their judgement or our moral compass for believing that..what can I tell you? May we burn in everlasting damnation. I`m just glad God isnt Pakistani.

{{And why the ?& *#@!% doesn`t India expose Pakistan to the rest of the world, by showing the proof, when they have agreed to give it to all its own citizens.}}

Good question. I think they have. Otherwise why would Bush twist Mushy`s arm? Why has`nt Western Europe publicly backed Pakistan about ``show me proof?``.

.

{{At the very least, would you agree that Pakistan now also has the moral right to threaten war against India, when a terrorist attack occurs in Pakistan, even without proof. The brother of the Pakistani interior minister was recently assisinated. Is it ok to declare war on India? }}

Sure it does; if it is absolutely convinced India is behind it. Its OK to declare war too. I personally would`nt recommend it; but then, I`m not a military expert like you, Field Marshall. Heck Pakistan has declared war in 65 by launching Op Gibralter & in 71 by attempting an Israeli style blitzkreig on Indian forward airbases. Not that it got them much, but thats a different story.

{{If you look at your arguments and mine, on Kashmir, you will notice two big differences:

1) I have never argued that Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir is correct. I have always argued that the Kashmiris stance on Kashmir is correct. Whatever they say should be done. India is unwilling to break away from the atut-ang stance. While I have broken away from Pakistan`s atut-ang stance (Pakistan has broken away from this stance, also). Why do you and other Indians have such a great desire to decide Kashmiri future, while I do not have that desire, even though I am a Kashmiri? Please ask yourself this question.}}

Listen buddy--if you & I were negotiating this for our govts, I would GLADLY give Kashmir independance. I would GLADLY encourage UP & Bihar to ask for independance too. Whats more, I would gladly donate those two states to Pakistan for free. In fact, come to think of it, I would INSIST that Pakistan take those states--even if she didnt want them, as a prerequisite to Kashmiri independance. But most of all, I would insist on Kashmiris, & only Kashmiris, to do whatever they want; but ONLY if Pakistan did India a BIG favor--take Saxena to Pakistan & KEEP HIM THERE!

See--since my ideas are so unpalatable to both sides, its just as well that I dont represent the GoI.

{{2) I have always argued that international human rights organizations and the international press should let us know what is going on in Kashmir.}}

Agreed. Especially since AI is saying one heck of a lot about Indian atrocities in Kashmir, eventhough they are not even allowed there.

{{ . You continue to project the view of the Indian press. If what you say is correct, then why is India afraid of the international press, and why is Pakistan not afraid of it?}}

Huhn?!!

{{It is unfortunate that Indians, nearly all of them, still do not realize their role in the Kashmir problem. The Indian suppression in Kashmir is not because of the militancy. The militancy is occuring because of Indian subjugation and suppression. When people are occupied, they tend to become militant. Musharraf has himself in the speech asked for AI to be allowed into Kashmir. I hope India agrees to that. If not, then I have to say India is greatly hiding the truth.}}

Gee whenever I travelled to Kashmir, I could walk the streets of Srinagar, Gulmarg & Phelgam without any fear of assault or kidnapping. Cant seem to recall any militancy at that time. I recall 3 of my friends & I went on a 3 hr hike(after a 3 hr bumpy car ride) with local Kashmiri guides to fight the right kind of streams for trout fishing. You think I would have the guts to do such a damned fool thing today? Wonder why I had never heard of militants then (in the 70s).

I guess you believe the chicken came before the egg & I believe the egg came before the chicken...

Maybe I`ll answer the rest of your post later---the Sopranos just came on...

Shankar #338: First things first:

``But when the Parliament is attacked; its time Indians say ``enough is enough``.``

Could you please email to me the proof that has been sent to all the Indians. Most of the terrorist attacks in Pakistan are traced back to RAW (which has a much larger budget than the ISI, by the way). I tend to not accept the Pakistanis tracebacks to RAW, without proof. But why bother, if Indians don`t need proof, then I do not need it any longer. Lets declare war on each other after every domestic terrorist attack. A very good way to live as nuclear neighbors.

And why the ?& *#@!% doesn`t India expose Pakistan to the rest of the world, by showing the proof, when they have agreed to give it to all its own citizens. After all, the USA did release the OBL tape the moment they found it. It made more sense to release it, then to keep it.

And why do Indian citizens keep saying they have so much in common with Pakistan, and want to be friends, when they are willing to accept accusations against Pakistan, without proof? The votebank of the BJP actually increases, when it threatens war on Pakistan, or explodes a nuclear bomb. You may not agree with the BJP`s actions, but the common Indian certainly does.

At the very least, would you agree that Pakistan now also has the moral right to threaten war against India, when a terrorist attack occurs in Pakistan, even without proof. The brother of the Pakistani interior minister was recently assisinated. Is it ok to declare war on India?

If you look at your arguments and mine, on Kashmir, you will notice two big differences:

1) I have never argued that Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir is correct. I have always argued that the Kashmiris stance on Kashmir is correct. Whatever they say should be done. India is unwilling to break away from the atut-ang stance. While I have broken away from Pakistan`s atut-ang stance (Pakistan has broken away from this stance, also). Why do you and other Indians have such a great desire to decide Kashmiri future, while I do not have that desire, even though I am a Kashmiri? Please ask yourself this question.

2) I have always argued that international human rights organizations and the international press should let us know what is going on in Kashmir. And the Indian and Pakistani press should not be followed. You continue to project the view of the Indian press. If what you say is correct, then why is India afraid of the international press, and why is Pakistan not afraid of it?

It is unfortunate that Indians, nearly all of them, still do not realize their role in the Kashmir problem. The Indian suppression in Kashmir is not because of the militancy. The militancy is occuring because of Indian subjugation and suppression. When people are occupied, they tend to become militant. Musharraf has himself in the speech asked for AI to be allowed into Kashmir. I hope India agrees to that. If not, then I have to say India is greatly hiding the truth.

``Let me also tell you that NO Indian is ``proud`` of the fact that thousands are dying in Kashmir.``

I can point to at least ten Indians on this website alone, who are openly proud of it. That would be about 1/3rd of the Indians, who regularly visit this site. Can you point out one Pakistani who is proud of the killings that Pakistani did in Bangladesh (even though Bangladesh was not disputed territory)? Name one Pakistani on this site. Why is there such a difference in mindset?

Killing people, banning HR organizations so no one can see the killings, and then saying no Indian is proud of it, is at least a little bit condescending. Indians, if not proud, are at least willing to tolerate it. Just think about what would happen in Canada, if the Canadian military went in to Quebec, and 60,000 people were killed just because Quebecans wanted separation.

``So eventhough Indians truly regret the death of civilians in Kashmir; they feel the ``guilt`` lies predominantly with Pakistan. Now you & I (in fact our great grand children too) will be arguing whether thats accurate or not.``

It is not for you and I, nor our grandchildren to decide such an important issues like the deaths of human beings. We are not slaveowners deciding the fate of our slaves. I don`t have that right over any other human being. And I certainly don`t want my grandchildren trying to play God, and making such decisions. I hope you dont either. Why not just ask the people who are getting killed. They can let you and I know who is to be blamed. I will accept their word if you will.

``I`ve visited Kashmir (as a tourist) several times as a teenager & in my 20s in those ``last 40 yrs``. Indians have been welcomed there & Kashmiris were thriving & didnt feel that they were living in a ``police state``.``

You maybe right. So once again, let`s just ask the Kashmiris themselves, and accept what they say. Why do you want to make assumptions for them? Neither you nor I own them. Do you at least agree to that?

Until the Kashmiris are asked, we will never know what they want. And to the best of my knowledge, it is India, which is scared of asking them, while simultaneously stating that they don`t like killing them, but is only doing so because of Pakistan, and because of the militacy. This has always been the basis of every single subjugation of every single human being in the history of mankind. Unfortunately.

A human being`s desire to dominate another human being is very delicious and empowering. This is the main cause of spousal abuse, rape, slavery, colonialism, etc. Human beings will go out of their way to justify this desire. People justify hitting their wives by thinking their wives asked for it. It is always for the benefit of the subjugated, is the argument. The British colonists were, after all, civilizing the locals. The occupiers never, ``like`` killing the people who are asking for freedom, but unfortunately they have, ``no choice.`` However, when someone interrupts the slaveowner, the human rights violater, the wife abuser, the rapist, the person in power, and asks him, ``If you are so sure of your views on what the subjugated wants, then why are you so scared to ask the subjuagated himself,`` the person in power has no answer.

Don`t make assumptions on what is good for Kashmiris, and don`t believe the Pakistani assumptions either. Just ask the people who are getting killed, themselves. Otherwise, you are only assisting the human rights violations in Kashmir, by justifying them, and not speaking out against them.

As a test, replace Kashmir with Quebec in all you statements, and India with Canada, and see if the arguments still appeal to you. Or replace Kashmir with Bangladesh, India with Pakistan, and Pakistan with India, and see if you still feel the same. If you don`t feel the same, then I am afraid you, and other Indians, are valuing Kashmiri life less than lives of people whom India is allied with.

I assume India has not gotten to a stage where it is completely disregarding Gandhi. Gandhi said the following:

``If the people of Kashmir are in favor of opting for Pakistan, no power on earth can stop them from doing so. They should feel free to decide for themselves.`` (Gandhi`s Passion; Wolpert)

Do you agree with what Gandhi stated? And do you think Indians agree with what Gandhi stated? If not, then under what precedence are you, or other Indians, asking for the removal of the BJP. You are infact preaching their stance on Kashmir, perhaps without realizing it.

Nationalism is a very strong force, my friend. It distorts one`s views of right and wrong. Specially, when one`s country is in a state of war. It forces people to start following the views of domestic groups and parties, they otherwise would oppose. I hope you don`t become a victim of such Nationalism. If even Indians like you become victims of Nationalism, then I am afraid India has completely lost its moral compass, and within ten years or so, will be left behind by Pakistan. Because Pakistan has through a lot of struggle discovered its moral compass again (this is the answer to the question I asked about why you will not be able to find any Pakistanis on this site, with defensive views in regard to Bangladesh).

stuka 322: Everyone in Pakistan, and in the world, knows that Pakistanis civilians cross into Kashmir (some of whom have carried out terrorism). Just like everyone in India, and in the world, knows that India has 500k + solidiers in Kashmir, some of whom have killed tens of thousands of people in Kashmir. That is why India never allows HR organizations into Kashmir, to expose the Pakistanis crossing in. That is why India does not even the UN monitors on its side to monitor the border. Because India knows an overwhelming amount of atrocities are being committed by the Indian forces, and only some by the terrorist elements of the freedom struggle. This should be obvious and logical.

Musharraf has now subtly admitted that Pakistanis do cross into Kashmir. He did not call them terrorists however. He said Pakistan would not allow them to cross into Kashmir. And that Pakistan would not allow its land to be used for terrorism (something he said three months ago). The former was directed towards India, and the later towards the USA. Basically he is telling India, we will stop the cross-border movement.

Now its up to India. For fifty years Indians have been saying that the Kashmiris want to be with India. We all know this is not true.

For eleven years Indians have been saying that the uprising in Kashmir has been caused by Pakistanis and is not indigenous. This is not true either. If it were, then India would have not banned AI.

For fifty years India has been saying that Kashmir is an atut-ang of India. This is not true either. It is still disputed territory, according to any legal or moral document. Heck, according to the Indian constitution, people like me, who are from Muzzafarabad in Pakistan`s Kashmir are actually Indian citizens (seriously). Now this is not true, is it?

The Indian law minister came on CNN and said 61,000 of his Indian civilians had been killed in Indian Kashmir by Pakistanis. Of course, this is not true. If it were, Indian Kashmiris would hate Pakistan and not love it. Obviously, some innocent pro-Indian Kashmiris have been killed by freedom fighters (both from Pakistan and from indigenous Kashmir population, who at that point become terrorists; this happens in every freedom struggle). But an overwhelming amount have been killed by the Indian occupying forces. The ratio in freedom struggles is usually like 1 to 10 o or higher, in favor of the armed militaries.

So this is where we stood till yesterday, in a deadlocked position. Musharraf has come out and broken the deadlock. He has basically stated that 1) alright, we admit Pakistanis cross into Kashmir, and we will stop them (the local Kashmiris are going to keep fighting however).

2) we do however believe the Kashmiris need to get their right of self-determination

3) now lets talk. And in the talks you have to admit everything you are doing also. That is why Musharraf specifically asked for AI and the international press to be allowed into Kashmir. I had been suggesting for a long time that India needs to lift this ban.

4) in the talks, you have to get rid of the atut-ang stance (which is the basic cause of the whole problem).

No. 4 is the tricky part. India has never budged an inch from its illegal stance (it is illegal according to the UN). Even now, Vajpayee has said that India will just talk to Pakistan, if Pakistan stop cross-border movements. This is what scares me. I don`t think India is going to budge again. It will just talk and talk, while trying to simultanously suppress the Kashmiris into submission. That is why it has never agreed to Pakistan`s offers of bilaterally withdrawing all forces from Kashmir.

So we are back to square one. It is still upto India to get rid of atut-ang. If it does that, there will be some solution to Kashmir. If it doesn`t then I am afraid, the militant struggle will start again. After all, it was for self-determination that the struggle was started to begin with.

The main concern of the Pakistanis is really to get the independent militant organizations out of the Pakistani society. This process will be completed in a year, if Musharraf keeps going the way he is going. If these organizations just shift their bases into Indian Kashmir, then why would that bother Pakistan. It would have just gotten rid of its problem, and handed it over to India, which is already facing huge problems in Kashmir, and in my opinion, it will be soon facing huge problems in India, with Advani running the BJP.

So all eyes are are on India, to see if India can honestly come forward now (like Musharraf did) and expose what it has been doing in Kashmir, through the international press. And more importantly, agree to self-determination. My bets are that India will not. It is still not agreeing to international mediation, while simultaneously flying its representatives to all over the world to put pressure on Pakistan. India`s startegy has always been to corner Pakistan, and control Kashmir. Not to corner Pakistan, and solve Kashmir. Pakistan`s stategy has been to create problems in Kashmir, and get a self-determination through force.

Pakistan needed to get out of the getting Kashmir militarily and militantly mentality, which it finally has. And India needs to get out of the state of denial of atut-ang (which I hope it will now). After that Kashmir issue can be solved in a day.

My guess is now India will be forced to accept an independent valley, with Ladakh and Jammu to India and Azad Kashmir to Pakistan (the Khushwant Singh formula). Pakistan and the Kashmiris will accept this. I think Vajpayee has accepted it. Now the rest of India and Indians (hardly any of whom have ever been to Kashmir) need to do some introspection and start pointing out their own faults, alongwith those of the Pakistanis (I have seen hardly any Indian say that atut-ang is wrong, or have the courage to say that India is committing massive human rights violations; banning an HR organization is itself a human rights violation).

If India however doesn`t bend like Pakistan did then I am afraid, in the long run, India will lose out. Kashmir is a gone case for India, primarily because Kashmiris hate Indians more than even Pakistanis hate Indians, or Indians hate Pakistanis. I live there, so I know.

I hope India doesn`t just talk for the sake of talking, without changing its stance. If it just talks, then it has no one else to blame except itself for the Kashmir problem. Lets see what happens.

India has greatly underestimated Pakistan and Musharraf. Musharraf has turned every Indian offensive back on India. Once again he has done it with this speech. India has its forces massed on border, without knowing what to do, now. I believe the Ayodhya temple is being built in March or April (not sure), that will cause riots, which will get international press. That will furthur damage India`s image.

I think this is do or die for Kashmir. If India doesn`t get rid of atut-ang, then we will be back to 50 years of Indo-Pak conflicts. Because, no Pakistani is going to bend more than Musharraf has. I hope Indians realize this.

Happy Lohri to all Punjabis out there...Had a neighborhood Lohri Party...Played songs from Monsoon Wedding.

It`s a great movie...BTW, very typical of South Delhi

Prem:

Ok, then you and I are basically on the same page. I am justvery wary of Indians being emotional and swinging from ``Pakis are devils`` to ``Pakis are brothers`` hindi movie style, coz that leads to false expectations.

BTW, I disagree with your take on COAS`s speech. He is a very sober guy. The chap to look out for is Army Commander Northern Command Gen Rustom Nanvatty, a Parsi chap. Word is that he is one ruthless bugger and quite liable to start a war on his own ;) Kidding about the last part. True story is that this guy was posted to Siachen as Brigade commander, and Army HQ asked him for an explanation on why the consumption of arty shells had quadrupled under his tenure.

SPM: You live in Lahore right? So you can come to the border whenever you want right? That`s cool I think.

I really enjoyed my trip to Amritsar, with Punjabi being spoken all around, I felt like it`s where I belong. Dinner at a place called Bhrawan Da Dhaba, with a next door restaurant called Brother`s Restaurant owned by the same people. Anyway, tonite`s my last night in New Delhi. I fly out tommorow night, and on Wednesday, it`ll be back to listening to harsh Irish accents :(

Is your cousin in the AirForce? I curse the Jehadi types all the time, but I have a lot of respect for the uniformed personnel of every country including yours. I sincerely believe that the chance of war has receded for the time being, and I hope your aunt doesn`t worry too much.

The full text of Bole So Nihal is:

``Jo Boley So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal`` which is the essence of Sikhi. It`s also used as a greeting and a war cry by the Sikh and I believe Sikh Light Infantry regiments. I can do a rough translation, but I am hoping Dulla Bhatti or Dost Mittar can do a good one. If they don`t I will...

Cheers

Romair,

{{``Why in the world would he do that if it there was no coerction of some sort?!``

The coercion came from Musharraf himself, the UN and the USA. This is exacly what I am trying to explain to Indians. Pakistani do not fear India.}}

I think either you have misunderstood my post or you & I are talking on 2 different frequencies:)

Let me tell you categorically, Indians--whether they are liberal, conservative or radical DO know that Pakistanis DONT fear India. When it comes to courage, patriotism or fighting spirit, Pakistanis are right up there. Heck, we have the scars of cricket & hockey matches to know that:). Indians also know, that eventhough they feel they have prevailed in wars with Pakistan, that war with Pakistan can have disastrous consequences for India.

So please dont go on & on about Pakistan`s determination for what they stand for--maybe I should play a violin when you go on & on with that point.

What I was saying was that the massive build up was a reaction of how fedup Indians are with Pakistan`s policy of ``bleeding India``. Its bad enough that it goes on in Kashmir. But when the Parliament is attacked; its time Indians say ``enough is enough``.

If something concrete isnt done, Pakistan can keep on playing these games (mumbling murmurs of ``outrage`` at the terrorist attacks, suggesting it was an Indian plot to discredit Pakistan & then giving a wink & a nod to the militant Kashmiris & their ``foreign`` hitmen & calling them freedom fighters).

1) We can agree to disagree; but I believe the US & Western Europe & even China have convinced Mushy that this ``war of a 1000 cuts`` should be called off--clearly, convincingly & without double-talk. No matter how ``principled`` Pakistan thinks her stance is vis-a vis Kashmir; a guerella war or a ``freedom fight`` will NOT be accepted , even by Pakistan`s ``all-weather friend``.

I think India`s massive build up was more to convince the rest of the world (not Pakistan) that India has reached the limits of her patience & (despite Pakistans Massada Complex) will go to war unless Pakistan changes her policy of ``bleeding India``--no matter how disastrous the consequences could be to India.

The general mood among Indians is that ``its better to accept the consequences--as bitter as they can be--than be subjected to this sort of constant low-level blackmail``. I think the rest of the world took that point well & pressured Pakistan. I`m not sure whether we disagree on that point--if we do, lets agree to disagree.

2)Let me also tell you that NO Indian is ``proud`` of the fact that thousands are dying in Kashmir. Unlike what Urstruly believes, ``Hindians`` DO have a conscience. Right, wrong or indifferent, Indians believe that the deaths in Kashmir is a very very unfortunate consequence of Kashmiri militancy--ESP that that militancy is no longer Kashmiri; but hijacked by Pakistanis and Islamic extremists.

So eventhough Indians truly regret the death of civilians in Kashmir; they feel the ``guilt`` lies predominantly with Pakistan. Now you & I (in fact our great grand children too) will be arguing whether thats accurate or not. In that respect Indians are just as stubborn as Pakistanis. So, when Pakistanis like ylh or Urstruly sometimes, in a fit of frustration, say ``I hate Indians`` or ``Hindians have no conscience``--the dominant response to these outbursts are ``we dont give a s *it what you & like minded Pakistanis think of us--kiss our butt``.

{{you missed one important point: India has betweeen 500,000 to 700,000 troop deployed in its only Muslim majority state to control the population. They are killing tens of thousands of people. Are you seriously suggesting to me, as an Indian, that the Indian society is so primitive and so brutal, that something like this has absolutely no effect on it? They ``just doesn`t care,`` as you have eloquently and bluntly put it.}}

I believe I`ve clarified my point. If you felt that Indians dont ``care`` that Kashmiris are dying; then I regret to say, that I was`nt clear about making my point. Indians dont CARE that Pakistanis feel that they have the moral highground re the Kashmir issue.

{{You need to keep in mind the only reason the situation reached this stage is because India did not recognize peaceful protests for forty years.}}

Well, I guess the only thing I can say about that is that Indians & Pakistanis will NEVER agree about that. I`ve visited Kashmir (as a tourist) several times as a teenager & in my 20s in those ``last 40 yrs``. Indians have been welcomed there & Kashmiris were thriving & didnt feel that they were living in a ``police state``.

Wrongs can be set right by peaceful means--& NO, the Kashmiris HAVENT done that. Those Kashmiris who DO want to do that are too scared of the militants. Incidentally, the militants have killed scores of Kashmiri muslims--either because they think they are ``Indian chamchas`` or because guerella wars, unfortunately, have ``collateral damage``.

I freely acknowlege what India did in Kashmir the latter part of the 80s was WRONG. BTW, I think most Indians do so too. Unfortunately, militancy had the opposite effect for Kashmiris. It just put them in a terrible hole.

I also feel that ,coincidentally, the GoP was ``riding high`` over their mujahadeen ``victory`` over the Soviets in Afghanistan, at that time. The powers that be in Pakistan decided, as a matter of policy, that they could adopt the same strategy in Kashmir & the same fate as the Soviets would befall the Indians.

In hindsight, Pakistanis, even Mushy, has come to the conclusion that that strategy has failed in Kashmir. The ``key`` in the Soviet defeat (in hindsight) was US SUPPORT of the mujahadeen. Just like the Northern Alliance had no HOPE of toppling the Taleban without US support, GoP has no HOPE of making India relent without US support.

Having said that; these are my views after Mushy`s speech:

1)Bravo Musharraf!! You have truely shown incredible statesmanship, strenght & character. My belief that you are the best leader that Pakistan has had (since Jinnah) is confirmed. I feel very encouraged that Pakistan has a man at the helm like you. Not only will you bring Pakistan away from the brink, but you will probably go down in history as the greatest S.Asian leader in modern times.

2) I think Pakistanis should be optimistic about their future with someone like Mushy at the helm. This man came on the international world scene underestimated. But in the short couple of years, he has earned the respect of the world, at large. I`d like to hope that most Indians feel the same way about him.

3) If Mushy keeps his word (& I think he will); he will bring not just Pakistan; but S.Asia (India ,in particular) out of the doldrums.

4)India should respect his patriotism for Pakistan. I guess no Indian or Pakistani will interpret history the same way. But a stable & prosperous Pakistan that remains engaged with India (despite irreconcilable differences) is the best thing that can happen to India.

5) Its ABOUT TIME India starts becoming introspective--esp about its behaviour in Kashmir & minorities, in general. Any Indian who feels India has a ``moral highground`` vis a vis Pakistan is being delusional. Its time India recognises that they maybe a ``victim`` of terror--but certainly NOT an ``innocent victim`` of terror.

6) Indians should realise that the ONLY hope for the future of their country should be a continued dialogue with Pakistan. A little maturity would go a long way too--this stupid habit of ``one-upmanship`` that desis focus on is absolutely childish. Besides, ``refusing to talk because we are angry`` is childish too, on India`s part.

7) Refusing to build on the ``hand of friendship`` that Mushy has offered will not be looked upon kindly by the rest of the world. Now is the time Vaju has to put his money where his mouth is: ``I will walk more than half way for peace if Pakistan stops cross border terrorism``--or something to that effect. Hawks, on both sides, will be determined to sabotage this. Its upto the majority of Indians & Pakistanis NOT to let them win.

8)Indians HAVE to start being introspective. They SHOULD boot out the BJP (& get a better alternative party to their Hindutva crap).

Ahem...not because Romair thinks its right; but because IT IS RIGHT!:)

re: semipreciousme

Something to the effect of ...wish he had left out that ``kashmir in our blood`` part?

Dear SPM...please don`t worry...our Indian and Pakistani feelings that the whole of Kashmir legitimately belongs to us, or that kashmir is in our blood aren`t the main obstacles to peace and progress...It is the overt and covert use of violence to enforce our will that is the main stumbling block...If PM can really deliver on his promise to stop violent provocations into territory held by India, and begins to take unambiguous steps in that direction...I will be ready to salute him.

Stuka,

And it goes to spm too in some ways.

This world`s a very complex place...Pervez Musharraf is no saint. But we shouldn`t be ready to make peace with saints only...emotional and worldly wisdom demands our taking a complex situation...rife with innumerable uncertainties and their attendant risks...and divining fairly simple solutions that can ensure peace and pride for all...These solutions mustn`t be based on complete gullibity (here is where I differ with those who are already saluting Pervez Musharraf), but must arise from our construcing, with care and caution, scenarios where the other party has the pressure, the incentive, and the encouragement to act rationally. And then we must be prepared for the large/small probability that we may all fail yet again.

Let`s eschew those childish notions of Pervez the eternal sinner, Pervez the sudden saint. Pervez Musharraf is just an ordinary joe, an above-average soldier in an extraordinary position, catapulted there by the inscrutable hand of fate (and the idiocy of Prime Minister Sharif): self-interested, brave, very intelligent with not-so-clear a grasp of a broader, long-range, vision, driven by a deep love of his country, and in his case a deep deep dislike of India (which is ok, as far as I am concerned....we don`t NEED others to love us).

Are we, with six-thousand years of cultural history behind us, not ready to deal with a man like him? I think we are. I dont suggest Indians be suckered in, just like I will never be suckered in by anyone who has pulled every antic to ever harm my family and then starts mouthing good words under pressure...me and my family are too important for me to bother with political correctness...but we mustn`t be petty either.

Facts, as I see them, are as follows: Although he had been a disastrous ruler with good-sounding, empty words at home and misguided policies abroad since he took over, post September 11, Pervez Musharraf has been very good for Pakistan. Pakistanis have a reason to salute him (although I would strongly suggest they listen carefully and closely to what sameerjb has to say).

But let Indians too take a risk for peace, not the risk of stupidity (of the kind - Pervez Musharraf is a wonderful man, let`s solute him) but the risk of bravery (the sins of all those rulers from Zia Ul Haq to Parvez Musharraf himself may finally be catching up with Pervez, and being an intelligent man, he MAY have finally decided to do what many clear-headed Pakistanis themselves want him to do - make a fundamental change in the direction his country had been taking; not a cosmetic, strategic shift to buy time, of the kind romair (and by extension, many in the Pakistani military) has been advocating, but a radical reorientation, as envisaged by the man who fought to make Pakistan - Jinnah.

No courage -- No risk -- No gain in life.

Whether we are Pakistanis or Indians, some basic truths never change.

Re ylh #: 186

[You have never quoted anything from any book to shut me up. Dont flatter yourself. As everyone saw, you quoted selectively from the Book `Great divide` while we were talking about Jinnah (on an article about the man)... a man who that book holds in greatest esteem. You started posting irrelevant quotes from the same book, which in no way proved any of your arguments albeit in your own twisted sense of reality. Sadly I lost the book, before I could counter your false claims.]

False claims? What false claims? You lost the book? How did that happen? In that case, why didn`t you go to some public library and get a copy?

The fact is Hodson makes it very clear that Jinnah planted Shah Nawaz Bhutto as the Dewan of Junagadh, and he was going to use Junagadh as a pawn to see which of the two Princely states, Hyderabad or Kashmir, he could get based on how India treated Junagadh: meaning, if Muslim-ruled Hindu state of Junagadh can join Pakistan, so can Hyderabad; if instead it had to join India, then so should Kashmir join Pakistan. If all of you Pakistanis felt that Kashmir was rightfully yours, why the need for this elaborate drama and why the need to send in the Pathan tribesmen to conquer Kashmir?

[The book by H V Hodson in the final analysis is the strongest possible evidence in Pakistan`s case on Kashmir.]

Not at all. That is why you refuse to summarize the three chapters on Junagadh, Hyderabad and Kashmir.

[You and your other alias Harimau have tried to quote him selectively to prove something that is a complete travesty of the facts.]

I don`t need aliases. The other gentleman(?) would have called you a blathering idiot and a few choice maa-ki-gaalis which, if you notice, I refrain from using.

[TEXT of the Plebiscite says:

``When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned``

700, 000 is a minimum?]

Was there 700,000 in 1985? No. Was there 700,000 in 1947? No. Was there 700,000 in 1965? No.

So ask yourself what caused the increase in troop strength.

Since the Security Council resolution says ``the strength needed to maintain public order`` or words to that effect, and since 700,000 is NOT enough to maintain peace, you should have no complaints if India sends 2 million men to police the territory.

Your selective quotes deleted. Here is the complete text of the last Security Council Resolution:

[Begin]

UN Resolution 13 August 1948

*RESOLUTION ADOPTED BY THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN ON 13 AUGUST 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/1100, PARA 75, DATED THE 9TH NOVEMBER, 1948)

THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN

Having given careful consideration to the points of view expressed by the Representatives of India and Pakistan regarding the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and

Being of the opinion that the prompt cessation of hostilities and the coercion of conditions the continuance of which is likely to endanger international peace and security are essential to implementation of its endeavors to assist the Governments of India and Pakistan in effecting a final settlement of the situation.

Resolves to submit simultaneously to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following proposal

PART I

CEASE-FIRE ORDER

A.The Governments of India and Pakistan agree that their respective High Commands will issue separately and simultaneously a cease- fire order to apply to all forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir as of the earliest practicable date or dates to be mutually agreed upon within four days after these proposals have been accepted by both Governments.

B.The High Commands of Indian and Pakistan forces agreed to refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. (For the purpose of these proposals ``forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides).

C.The Commanders-in-Chief of the Forces of India and Pakistan shall promptly confer regarding any necessary local changes in present dispositions which may facilitate the cease-fire.

D.In its discretions and as the Commission may find practicable, the Commission will appoint military observers who under the authority of the Commission and with the co-operation of both Commands will supervise the observance of the cease-fire order.

E.The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan agree to appeal to their respective peoples to assist in creating and maintaining an atmosphere favorable to the promotion of further negotiations.

PART II

TRUCE AGREEMENT

Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.

A.(l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.

(3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission.

B.(1) When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission

(2) Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of