1971: A Forgotten Story

i recently watched the movie 1971
it has opened up a new world for me
i knew very little information about the POW situation
i have spent the past hours reading on this subject
i feel helpless, i wish there was something i could do, it really is a damn shame that all this happened the way it did, and how everybody has forgotten.
even here in the US we remember a lot of our soldiers who fought for our lives on veterans day etc., we also hear prayers constantly about the troops over in iraq
i wish there was more sense of patriotism in india, everybody is too busy trying to ``american.``
Me living in America all my life, i feel a sad when i go to india and i see people in places like gurgaon who look down on people who don`t talk good english or girls who choose to wear saris or salwar kamiz instead of jeans.....it pisses me off

Re: # 216
Hi Farzana,
I have contacted you on my gmail id which is pushpadivecha@gmail.com
regards
pushpa

Dear Pushpaji:

It is sheer co-incidence that I loooked at this old page, since I needed to check some interactions. If you do look in again, please get in touch with me at kaaghaz.kalamATgmailDOTcom.

This issue is extremely important to me, and as I can see even more important to you.

Regards,
Farzana

Dear Farzana,

You have ended your passionate blog with a prophetic query,
`Does not the appeal, “Join the army” sound like a slap to the parents, since they have been told he is not in the records?`

I whole-heartedly subscribe to this as is apparent with the unpopularity of seeking a career in the armed forces by many bright, intelligent, and adventurous youth.

It was not so in the past. (Its important you see my profile).

The mystery of the missing 54 POWs should not be allowed to die a natural death. The sacrifice of these warriors must never be seen as being in vain by the present and future generations. If even a SINGLE politician`s or big industrialist`s or media baron`s immediate family member had been thus sacrificed, am certain the `great mystery` would have been resolved long ago!

It is indeed tragic that opportunities have been bungled continuously, ever since we did not bargain for the return of even ONE POW in exchange for 2000 we magnanimously released at the end of the 71 war. Thats all water under the bridge now, and historians will forever debate the wisdom of confining the issue of POW exchange to the separate `fronts` in the war.

Getting back to the issue at hand: I begin with an incontrovertable argument, repeated unceasingly by concerned parties:
``It is incredible that all the POWs have simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971 or soon after, and that absolutely no official evidence of their remnants exist``.

I know for a fact that bereaved family members cannot bear to imagine what the state of their loved ones would be (if still alive) after 34 yrs. The treatment meted to undertrials is horrific. Loved families left behind have been made to believe by well-meaning friends that the POWs could not have survived for so long. They have bravely and reluctanly got on with their lives.

That is the practical and caring advice I have myself offered to the suffering families.

Yet, this is only one part of the story, conveniently consigned to limbo to save the families from further pain. For the rest of us Indians, such disgraceful history which mocks patriotism, should not be buried without a thorough post-mortem. It must be unearthed, no matter how painful or embarrassing to the perhaps well-intentioned secrecy of the powers that be.

One could formulate a rational course of action by first analysing the Why`s of this secrecy, and then proceeding through our still credible judicial system, to reach the truth.

Let us accept, however reluctantly, that it was/is not sheer indifference by our govt for not having aggressively sought the release/wherebouts/remains/ashes of the missing POWs. The deception goes way back, over three decades. Most assuredly the records are missing (if at all they were recorded), so its no use blaming our present intelligence agencies for hiding the truth. Even when they have apparently tried their best, they claim to have reached dead-ends.

What however is most unforgiveable, is that a trail which was `provenly existent` in the case of some POWs for many years, was negligently, if not purposefully, allowed to gradually disappear. Now, decades later, the vapours gets life through stray and mostly silly rumours, that serve no purpose excepting to revive hurtful memories.

Through my studies on the subject, and I can only reasonably conjecture, that soon after the war, there was a deliberate `understanding` by India and Pakistan at the very highest levels, to keep all information on the missing POWs absolutely out of view till the picture clears. There are plausible grounds for this conjecture which `a select few in the know` are only privy to, and it is to them we must appeal to `open-up`. The embarrassing disclosures may have been `protected` within the frame-work of larger peace initiatives redifining boundaries within the subcontinent. The Simla peace talks between Indira Gandhi and Bhutto went very deep into shared confidences regarding the possibility of insurrections and further dismemberment of Pakistan. Future perspectives must have been informally and confidentially discussed/hinted at, in the back-drop of military elites plotting to unseat Bhutto. After the cease fire, its likely that in the confusion and anger among `uniformed` Pakistanis for losing the eastern wing, many POW undertrials were randomly scattered, without proper accounting, to remote jails. Even Bhutto may have been disinterested (too busy scheming to remain in power), as also being kept out of the loop by the military. This is not impossible. Bhutto claimed to have been disturbed by the screams of demented POWs sharing his prison when he was himself awaiting execution by the military dictatorship that unseated him. That could have been a clever ploy/red herring by him to get India involved to save his neck. Its quite another matter that we donot know what he did as PM himself after the war to resolve the POW issue!

One fact that can be reasonably surmised, is Pakistan would have been disgracefully exposed to the world for its treatment to POWs had any surviving POWs been returned. Top Indian `negotiators` in their own wisdom may have also felt that families of the missing POWs should be shielded from such ugliness. As is the case with any criminal activity, evidence is destroyed. Probably the POWs have also, inevitably and sadly, been fated to this end.

Subsequent Indian Govts, excepting for some maverick attempts, went along with the earlier ones as a matter of policy. Both sides have connived in obscuring the issue with platitudes and sheer noise. Pakistan`s conciliatory gestures are an eyewash, because for all practical purposes, the trail is covered up.

The above long discourse is to better inform international forums and active NGOs towards formulating an achievable twin-track course of action to meet practicable ends:

1. Previous participants in peace negotiations with Pakistan, and those with credible information (bureaucrats, military, politicians, advisors etc) must be informally persuaded through wide publicity/legally coerced with absolution from prosecution for any infringement of law (Official Secrets Act) into revealing all that they know. This is indisputably in the larger interest of human justice. The primary thrust of the legal argument keeping this subject worthwhile, is what was stated at the beginning of this missive:
``It is incredible that the POWs have all simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971, and that no evidence of their remnants exist``.
(A similar move could be informally initiated in Pakistan by the media and NGO`s. The spin-offs are substantial in furthering friendly relations between the two peoples of the present and future generations who carry no blame for past hostilities between the two nations).
Possibly there is a misconceived interpretation of what constitutes `secrecy out of compassion`, by those holding back. They must `speak out` now, even after 35 years, so that the wounds do not fester.
For sure it will be a long and protracted process as the facts are collated, for missing portions of history to get dispassionately updated. This is imperative for the faith of citizenry in democratic governance, and plain human decency.
I am not a legal expert, but I can suggest that active NGOs pursuing this matter `re-introduce` a well-defined PIL, as also petition our President.

2. Persuade Pakistan to actively cooperate in searching/rescuing/restoring any material that may have survived all these years. These should be handed over to the families through discreet NGOs

For this mission to succeed, the media `tamasha` MUST be kept totally out of this effort, till `after` it has been achieved. A guarantee of confidence to this effect must be made by all concerned. A vital and encouraging cog in bringing such a scheme to fruition is the President of Pakistan, General Musharraf. We must take him by his word when he claims that being a soldier himself, he is not devoid of compassion when it comes to the subject of the missing POWs. The General`s proactivity in facilitating this would immediatey ameliorate a small but vital portion of the pain by way of the sentimental memorablia being handed to the families of the missing POWs. He would deservedly earn our gratitude, and establish his image as a humane person.

I have noted on this blog-site the participation of many influential and concerned parties. I therefore hope the `message` reaches general Musharaff, because he HAS the power to help us realise what many would cynically dismiss as a `pipe-dream`..

With all hope
pushpa

Dear Farzana,

You have ended your passionate blog with a prophetic query,
`Does not the appeal, “Join the army” sound like a slap to the parents, since they have been told he is not in the records?`

I whole-heartedly subscribe to this as is apparent with the unpopularity of seeking a career in the armed forces by many bright, intelligent, and adventurous youth.

It was not so in the past. (Its important you see my profile).

The mystery of the missing 54 POWs should not be allowed to die a natural death. The sacrifice of these warriors must never be seen as being in vain by the present and future generations. If even a SINGLE politician`s or big industrialist`s or media baron`s immediate family member had been thus sacrificed, am certain the `great mystery` would have been resolved long ago!

It is indeed tragic that opportunities have been bungled continuously, ever since we did not bargain for the return of even ONE POW in exchange for 2000 we magnanimously released at the end of the 71 war. Thats all water under the bridge now, and historians will forever debate the wisdom of confining the issue of POW exchange to the separate `fronts` in the war.

Getting back to the issue at hand: I begin with an incontrovertable argument, repeated unceasingly by concerned parties:
``It is incredible that all the POWs have simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971 or soon after, and that absolutely no official evidence of their remnants exist``.

I know for a fact that bereaved family members cannot bear to imagine what the state of their loved ones would be (if still alive) after 34 yrs. The treatment meted to undertrials is horrific. Loved families left behind have been made to believe by well-meaning friends that the POWs could not have survived for so long. They have bravely and reluctanly got on with their lives.

That is the practical and caring advice I have myself offered to the suffering families.

Yet, this is only one part of the story, conveniently consigned to limbo to save the families from further pain. For the rest of us Indians, such disgraceful history which mocks patriotism, should not be buried without a thorough post-mortem. It must be unearthed, no matter how painful or embarrassing to the perhaps well-intentioned secrecy of the powers that be.

One could formulate a rational course of action by first analysing the Why`s of this secrecy, and then proceeding through our still credible judicial system, to reach the truth.

Let us accept, however reluctantly, that it was/is not sheer indifference by our govt for not having aggressively sought the release/wherebouts/remains/ashes of the missing POWs. The deception goes way back, over three decades. Most assuredly the records are missing (if at all they were recorded), so its no use blaming our present intelligence agencies for hiding the truth. Even when they have apparently tried their best, they claim to have reached dead-ends.

What however is most unforgiveable, is that a trail which was `provenly existent` in the case of some POWs for many years, was negligently, if not purposefully, allowed to gradually disappear. Now, decades later, the vapours gets life through stray and mostly silly rumours, that serve no purpose excepting to revive hurtful memories.

Through my studies on the subject, and I can only reasonably conjecture, that soon after the war, there was a deliberate `understanding` by India and Pakistan at the very highest levels, to keep all information on the missing POWs absolutely out of view till the picture clears. There are plausible grounds for this conjecture which `a select few in the know` are only privy to, and it is to them we must appeal to `open-up`. The embarrassing disclosures may have been `protected` within the frame-work of larger peace initiatives redifining boundaries within the subcontinent. The Simla peace talks between Indira Gandhi and Bhutto went very deep into shared confidences regarding the possibility of insurrections and further dismemberment of Pakistan. Future perspectives must have been informally and confidentially discussed/hinted at, in the back-drop of military elites plotting to unseat Bhutto. After the cease fire, its likely that in the confusion and anger among `uniformed` Pakistanis for losing the eastern wing, many POW undertrials were randomly scattered, without proper accounting, to remote jails. Even Bhutto may have been disinterested (too busy scheming to remain in power), as also being kept out of the loop by the military. This is not impossible. Bhutto claimed to have been disturbed by the screams of demented POWs sharing his prison when he was himself awaiting execution by the military dictatorship that unseated him. That could have been a clever ploy/red herring by him to get India involved to save his neck. Its quite another matter that we donot know what he did as PM himself after the war to resolve the POW issue!

One fact that can be reasonably surmised, is Pakistan would have been disgracefully exposed to the world for its treatment to POWs had any surviving POWs been returned. Top Indian `negotiators` in their own wisdom may have also felt that families of the missing POWs should be shielded from such ugliness. As is the case with any criminal activity, evidence is destroyed. Probably the POWs have also, inevitably and sadly, been fated to this end.

Subsequent Indian Govts, excepting for some maverick attempts, went along with the earlier ones as a matter of policy. Both sides have connived in obscuring the issue with platitudes and sheer noise. Pakistan`s conciliatory gestures are an eyewash, because for all practical purposes, the trail is covered up.

The above long discourse is to better inform international forums and active NGOs towards formulating an achievable twin-track course of action to meet practicable ends:

1. Previous participants in peace negotiations with Pakistan, and those with credible information (bureaucrats, military, politicians, advisors etc) must be informally persuaded through wide publicity/legally coerced with absolution from prosecution for any infringement of law (Official Secrets Act) into revealing all that they know. This is indisputably in the larger interest of human justice. The primary thrust of the legal argument keeping this subject worthwhile, is what was stated at the beginning of this missive:
``It is incredible that the POWs have all simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971, and that no evidence of their remnants exist``.
(A similar move could be informally initiated in Pakistan by the media and NGO`s. The spin-offs are substantial in furthering friendly relations between the two peoples of the present and future generations who carry no blame for past hostilities between the two nations).
Possibly there is a misconceived interpretation of what constitutes `secrecy out of compassion`, by those holding back. They must `speak out` now, even after 35 years, so that the wounds do not fester.
For sure it will be a long and protracted process as the facts are collated, for missing portions of history to get dispassionately updated. This is imperative for the faith of citizenry in democratic governance, and plain human decency.
I am not a legal expert, but I can suggest that active NGOs pursuing this matter `re-introduce` a well-defined PIL, as also petition our President.

2. Persuade Pakistan to actively cooperate in searching/rescuing/restoring any material that may have survived all these years. These should be handed over to the families through discreet NGOs

For this mission to succeed, the media `tamasha` MUST be kept totally out of this effort, till `after` it has been achieved. A guarantee of confidence to this effect must be made by all concerned. A vital and encouraging cog in bringing such a scheme to fruition is the President of Pakistan, General Musharraf. We must take him by his word when he claims that being a soldier himself, he is not devoid of compassion when it comes to the subject of the missing POWs. The General`s proactivity in facilitating this would immediatey ameliorate a small but vital portion of the pain by way of the sentimental memorablia being handed to the families of the missing POWs. He would deservedly earn our gratitude, and establish his image as a humane person.

I have noted on this blog-site the participation of many influential and concerned parties. I therefore hope the `message` reaches general Musharaff, because he HAS the power to help us realise what many would cynically dismiss as a `pipe-dream`..

With all hope
pushpa

Dear Farzana,

You have ended your passionate blog with a prophetic query,
`Does not the appeal, “Join the army” sound like a slap to the parents, since they have been told he is not in the records?`

I whole-heartedly subscribe to this as is apparent with the unpopularity of seeking a career in the armed forces by many bright, intelligent, and adventurous youth.

It was not so in the past. (Its important you see my profile).

The mystery of the missing 54 POWs should not be allowed to die a natural death. The sacrifice of these warriors must never be seen as being in vain by the present and future generations. If even a SINGLE politician`s or big industrialist`s or media baron`s immediate family member had been thus sacrificed, am certain the `great mystery` would have been resolved long ago!

It is indeed tragic that opportunities have been bungled continuously, ever since we did not bargain for the return of even ONE POW in exchange for 2000 we magnanimously released at the end of the 71 war. Thats all water under the bridge now, and historians will forever debate the wisdom of confining the issue of POW exchange to the separate `fronts` in the war.

Getting back to the issue at hand: I begin with an incontrovertable argument, repeated unceasingly by concerned parties:
``It is incredible that all the POWs have simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971 or soon after, and that absolutely no official evidence of their remnants exist``.

I know for a fact that bereaved family members cannot bear to imagine what the state of their loved ones would be (if still alive) after 34 yrs. The treatment meted to undertrials is horrific. Loved families left behind have been made to believe by well-meaning friends that the POWs could not have survived for so long. They have bravely and reluctanly got on with their lives.

That is the practical and caring advice I have myself offered to the suffering families.

Yet, this is only one part of the story, conveniently consigned to limbo to save the families from further pain. For the rest of us Indians, such disgraceful history which mocks patriotism, should not be buried without a thorough post-mortem. It must be unearthed, no matter how painful or embarrassing to the perhaps well-intentioned secrecy of the powers that be.

One could formulate a rational course of action by first analysing the Why`s of this secrecy, and then proceeding through our still credible judicial system, to reach the truth.

Let us accept, however reluctantly, that it was/is not sheer indifference by our govt for not having aggressively sought the release/wherebouts/remains/ashes of the missing POWs. The deception goes way back, over three decades. Most assuredly the records are missing (if at all they were recorded), so its no use blaming our present intelligence agencies for hiding the truth. Even when they have apparently tried their best, they claim to have reached dead-ends.

What however is most unforgiveable, is that a trail which was `provenly existent` in the case of some POWs for many years, was negligently, if not purposefully, allowed to gradually disappear. Now, decades later, the vapours gets life through stray and mostly silly rumours, that serve no purpose excepting to revive hurtful memories.

Through my studies on the subject, and I can only reasonably conjecture, that soon after the war, there was a deliberate `understanding` by India and Pakistan at the very highest levels, to keep all information on the missing POWs absolutely out of view till the picture clears. There are plausible grounds for this conjecture which `a select few in the know` are only privy to, and it is to them we must appeal to `open-up`. The embarrassing disclosures may have been `protected` within the frame-work of larger peace initiatives redifining boundaries within the subcontinent. The Simla peace talks between Indira Gandhi and Bhutto went very deep into shared confidences regarding the possibility of insurrections and further dismemberment of Pakistan. Future perspectives must have been informally and confidentially discussed/hinted at, in the back-drop of military elites plotting to unseat Bhutto. After the cease fire, its likely that in the confusion and anger among `uniformed` Pakistanis for losing the eastern wing, many POW undertrials were randomly scattered, without proper accounting, to remote jails. Even Bhutto may have been disinterested (too busy scheming to remain in power), as also being kept out of the loop by the military. This is not impossible. Bhutto claimed to have been disturbed by the screams of demented POWs sharing his prison when he was himself awaiting execution by the military dictatorship that unseated him. That could have been a clever ploy/red herring by him to get India involved to save his neck. Its quite another matter that we donot know what he did as PM himself after the war to resolve the POW issue!

One fact that can be reasonably surmised, is Pakistan would have been disgracefully exposed to the world for its treatment to POWs had any surviving POWs been returned. Top Indian `negotiators` in their own wisdom may have also felt that families of the missing POWs should be shielded from such ugliness. As is the case with any criminal activity, evidence is destroyed. Probably the POWs have also, inevitably and sadly, been fated to this end.

Subsequent Indian Govts, excepting for some maverick attempts, went along with the earlier ones as a matter of policy. Both sides have connived in obscuring the issue with platitudes and sheer noise. Pakistan`s conciliatory gestures are an eyewash, because for all practical purposes, the trail is covered up.

The above long discourse is to better inform international forums and active NGOs towards formulating an achievable twin-track course of action to meet practicable ends:

1. Previous participants in peace negotiations with Pakistan, and those with credible information (bureaucrats, military, politicians, advisors etc) must be informally persuaded through wide publicity/legally coerced with absolution from prosecution for any infringement of law (Official Secrets Act) into revealing all that they know. This is indisputably in the larger interest of human justice. The primary thrust of the legal argument keeping this subject worthwhile, is what was stated at the beginning of this missive:
``It is incredible that the POWs have all simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971, and that no evidence of their remnants exist``.
(A similar move could be informally initiated in Pakistan by the media and NGO`s. The spin-offs are substantial in furthering friendly relations between the two peoples of the present and future generations who carry no blame for past hostilities between the two nations).
Possibly there is a misconceived interpretation of what constitutes `secrecy out of compassion`, by those holding back. They must `speak out` now, even after 35 years, so that the wounds do not fester.
For sure it will be a long and protracted process as the facts are collated, for missing portions of history to get dispassionately updated. This is imperative for the faith of citizenry in democratic governance, and plain human decency.
I am not a legal expert, but I can suggest that active NGOs pursuing this matter `re-introduce` a well-defined PIL, as also petition our President.

2. Persuade Pakistan to actively cooperate in searching/rescuing/restoring any material that may have survived all these years. These should be handed over to the families through discreet NGOs

For this mission to succeed, the media `tamasha` MUST be kept totally out of this effort, till `after` it has been achieved. A guarantee of confidence to this effect must be made by all concerned. A vital and encouraging cog in bringing such a scheme to fruition is the President of Pakistan, General Musharraf. We must take him by his word when he claims that being a soldier himself, he is not devoid of compassion when it comes to the subject of the missing POWs. The General`s proactivity in facilitating this would immediatey ameliorate a small but vital portion of the pain by way of the sentimental memorablia being handed to the families of the missing POWs. He would deservedly earn our gratitude, and establish his image as a humane person.

I have noted on this blog-site the participation of many influential and concerned parties. I therefore hope the `message` reaches general Musharaff, because he HAS the power to help us realise what many would cynically dismiss as a `pipe-dream`..

With all hope
pushpa

Dear Farzana,

You have ended your passionate blog with a prophetic query,
`Does not the appeal, “Join the army” sound like a slap to the parents, since they have been told he is not in the records?`

I whole-heartedly subscribe to this as is apparent with the unpopularity of seeking a career in the armed forces by many bright, intelligent, and adventurous youth.

It was not so in the past. (Its important you see my profile).

The mystery of the missing 54 POWs should not be allowed to die a natural death. The sacrifice of these warriors must never be seen as being in vain by the present and future generations. If even a SINGLE politician`s or big industrialist`s or media baron`s immediate family member had been thus sacrificed, am certain the `great mystery` would have been resolved long ago!

It is indeed tragic that opportunities have been bungled continuously, ever since we did not bargain for the return of even ONE POW in exchange for 2000 we magnanimously released at the end of the 71 war. Thats all water under the bridge now, and historians will forever debate the wisdom of confining the issue of POW exchange to the separate `fronts` in the war.

Getting back to the issue at hand: I begin with an incontrovertable argument, repeated unceasingly by concerned parties:
``It is incredible that all the POWs have simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971 or soon after, and that absolutely no official evidence of their remnants exist``.

I know for a fact that bereaved family members cannot bear to imagine what the state of their loved ones would be (if still alive) after 34 yrs. The treatment meted to undertrials is horrific. Loved families left behind have been made to believe by well-meaning friends that the POWs could not have survived for so long. They have bravely and reluctanly got on with their lives.

That is the practical and caring advice I have myself offered to the suffering families.

Yet, this is only one part of the story, conveniently consigned to limbo to save the families from further pain. For the rest of us Indians, such disgraceful history which mocks patriotism, should not be buried without a thorough post-mortem. It must be unearthed, no matter how painful or embarrassing to the perhaps well-intentioned secrecy of the powers that be.

One could formulate a rational course of action by first analysing the Why`s of this secrecy, and then proceeding through our still credible judicial system, to reach the truth.

Let us accept, however reluctantly, that it was/is not sheer indifference by our govt for not having aggressively sought the release/wherebouts/remains/ashes of the missing POWs. The deception goes way back, over three decades. Most assuredly the records are missing (if at all they were recorded), so its no use blaming our present intelligence agencies for hiding the truth. Even when they have apparently tried their best, they claim to have reached dead-ends.

What however is most unforgiveable, is that a trail which was `provenly existent` in the case of some POWs for many years, was negligently, if not purposefully, allowed to gradually disappear. Now, decades later, the vapours gets life through stray and mostly silly rumours, that serve no purpose excepting to revive hurtful memories.

Through my studies on the subject, and I can only reasonably conjecture, that soon after the war, there was a deliberate `understanding` by India and Pakistan at the very highest levels, to keep all information on the missing POWs absolutely out of view till the picture clears. There are plausible grounds for this conjecture which `a select few in the know` are only privy to, and it is to them we must appeal to `open-up`. The embarrassing disclosures may have been `protected` within the frame-work of larger peace initiatives redifining boundaries within the subcontinent. The Simla peace talks between Indira Gandhi and Bhutto went very deep into shared confidences regarding the possibility of insurrections and further dismemberment of Pakistan. Future perspectives must have been informally and confidentially discussed/hinted at, in the back-drop of military elites plotting to unseat Bhutto. After the cease fire, its likely that in the confusion and anger among `uniformed` Pakistanis for losing the eastern wing, many POW undertrials were randomly scattered, without proper accounting, to remote jails. Even Bhutto may have been disinterested (too busy scheming to remain in power), as also being kept out of the loop by the military. This is not impossible. Bhutto claimed to have been disturbed by the screams of demented POWs sharing his prison when he was himself awaiting execution by the military dictatorship that unseated him. That could have been a clever ploy/red herring by him to get India involved to save his neck. Its quite another matter that we donot know what he did as PM himself after the war to resolve the POW issue!

One fact that can be reasonably surmised, is Pakistan would have been disgracefully exposed to the world for its treatment to POWs had any surviving POWs been returned. Top Indian `negotiators` in their own wisdom may have also felt that families of the missing POWs should be shielded from such ugliness. As is the case with any criminal activity, evidence is destroyed. Probably the POWs have also, inevitably and sadly, been fated to this end.

Subsequent Indian Govts, excepting for some maverick attempts, went along with the earlier ones as a matter of policy. Both sides have connived in obscuring the issue with platitudes and sheer noise. Pakistan`s conciliatory gestures are an eyewash, because for all practical purposes, the trail is covered up.

The above long discourse is to better inform international forums and active NGOs towards formulating an achievable twin-track course of action to meet practicable ends:

1. Previous participants in peace negotiations with Pakistan, and those with credible information (bureaucrats, military, politicians, advisors etc) must be informally persuaded through wide publicity/legally coerced with absolution from prosecution for any infringement of law (Official Secrets Act) into revealing all that they know. This is indisputably in the larger interest of human justice. The primary thrust of the legal argument keeping this subject worthwhile, is what was stated at the beginning of this missive:
``It is incredible that the POWs have all simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971, and that no evidence of their remnants exist``.
(A similar move could be informally initiated in Pakistan by the media and NGO`s. The spin-offs are substantial in furthering friendly relations between the two peoples of the present and future generations who carry no blame for past hostilities between the two nations).
Possibly there is a misconceived interpretation of what constitutes `secrecy out of compassion`, by those holding back. They must `speak out` now, even after 35 years, so that the wounds do not fester.
For sure it will be a long and protracted process as the facts are collated, for missing portions of history to get dispassionately updated. This is imperative for the faith of citizenry in democratic governance, and plain human decency.
I am not a legal expert, but I can suggest that active NGOs pursuing this matter `re-introduce` a well-defined PIL, as also petition our President.

2. Persuade Pakistan to actively cooperate in searching/rescuing/restoring any material that may have survived all these years. These should be handed over to the families through discreet NGOs

For this mission to succeed, the media `tamasha` MUST be kept totally out of this effort, till `after` it has been achieved. A guarantee of confidence to this effect must be made by all concerned. A vital and encouraging cog in bringing such a scheme to fruition is the President of Pakistan, General Musharraf. We must take him by his word when he claims that being a soldier himself, he is not devoid of compassion when it comes to the subject of the missing POWs. The General`s proactivity in facilitating this would immediatey ameliorate a small but vital portion of the pain by way of the sentimental memorablia being handed to the families of the missing POWs. He would deservedly earn our gratitude, and establish his image as a humane person.

I have noted on this blog-site the participation of many influential and concerned parties. I therefore hope the `message` reaches general Musharaff, because he HAS the power to help us realise what many would cynically dismiss as a `pipe-dream`..

With all hope
pushpa

Dear Farzana,

You have ended your passionate blog with a prophetic query,
`Does not the appeal, “Join the army” sound like a slap to the parents, since they have been told he is not in the records?`

I whole-heartedly subscribe to this as is apparent with the unpopularity of seeking a career in the armed forces by many bright, intelligent, and adventurous youth.

It was not so in the past. (Its important you see my profile).

The mystery of the missing 54 POWs should not be allowed to die a natural death. The sacrifice of these warriors must never be seen as being in vain by the present and future generations. If even a SINGLE politician`s or big industrialist`s or media baron`s immediate family member had been thus sacrificed, am certain the `great mystery` would have been resolved long ago!

It is indeed tragic that opportunities have been bungled continuously, ever since we did not bargain for the return of even ONE POW in exchange for 2000 we magnanimously released at the end of the 71 war. Thats all water under the bridge now, and historians will forever debate the wisdom of confining the issue of POW exchange to the separate `fronts` in the war.

Getting back to the issue at hand: I begin with an incontrovertable argument, repeated unceasingly by concerned parties:
``It is incredible that all the POWs have simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971 or soon after, and that absolutely no official evidence of their remnants exist``.

I know for a fact that bereaved family members cannot bear to imagine what the state of their loved ones would be (if still alive) after 34 yrs. The treatment meted to undertrials is horrific. Loved families left behind have been made to believe by well-meaning friends that the POWs could not have survived for so long. They have bravely and reluctanly got on with their lives.

That is the practical and caring advice I have myself offered to the suffering families.

Yet, this is only one part of the story, conveniently consigned to limbo to save the families from further pain. For the rest of us Indians, such disgraceful history which mocks patriotism, should not be buried without a thorough post-mortem. It must be unearthed, no matter how painful or embarrassing to the perhaps well-intentioned secrecy of the powers that be.

One could formulate a rational course of action by first analysing the Why`s of this secrecy, and then proceeding through our still credible judicial system, to reach the truth.

Let us accept, however reluctantly, that it was/is not sheer indifference by our govt for not having aggressively sought the release/wherebouts/remains/ashes of the missing POWs. The deception goes way back, over three decades. Most assuredly the records are missing (if at all they were recorded), so its no use blaming our present intelligence agencies for hiding the truth. Even when they have apparently tried their best, they claim to have reached dead-ends.

What however is most unforgiveable, is that a trail which was `provenly existent` in the case of some POWs for many years, was negligently, if not purposefully, allowed to gradually disappear. Now, decades later, the vapours gets life through stray and mostly silly rumours, that serve no purpose excepting to revive hurtful memories.

Through my studies on the subject, and I can only reasonably conjecture, that soon after the war, there was a deliberate `understanding` by India and Pakistan at the very highest levels, to keep all information on the missing POWs absolutely out of view till the picture clears. There are plausible grounds for this conjecture which `a select few in the know` are only privy to, and it is to them we must appeal to `open-up`. The embarrassing disclosures may have been `protected` within the frame-work of larger peace initiatives redifining boundaries within the subcontinent. The Simla peace talks between Indira Gandhi and Bhutto went very deep into shared confidences regarding the possibility of insurrections and further dismemberment of Pakistan. Future perspectives must have been informally and confidentially discussed/hinted at, in the back-drop of military elites plotting to unseat Bhutto. After the cease fire, its likely that in the confusion and anger among `uniformed` Pakistanis for losing the eastern wing, many POW undertrials were randomly scattered, without proper accounting, to remote jails. Even Bhutto may have been disinterested (too busy scheming to remain in power), as also being kept out of the loop by the military. This is not impossible. Bhutto claimed to have been disturbed by the screams of demented POWs sharing his prison when he was himself awaiting execution by the military dictatorship that unseated him. That could have been a clever ploy/red herring by him to get India involved to save his neck. Its quite another matter that we donot know what he did as PM himself after the war to resolve the POW issue!

One fact that can be reasonably surmised, is Pakistan would have been disgracefully exposed to the world for its treatment to POWs had any surviving POWs been returned. Top Indian `negotiators` in their own wisdom may have also felt that families of the missing POWs should be shielded from such ugliness. As is the case with any criminal activity, evidence is destroyed. Probably the POWs have also, inevitably and sadly, been fated to this end.

Subsequent Indian Govts, excepting for some maverick attempts, went along with the earlier ones as a matter of policy. Both sides have connived in obscuring the issue with platitudes and sheer noise. Pakistan`s conciliatory gestures are an eyewash, because for all practical purposes, the trail is covered up.

The above long discourse is to better inform international forums and active NGOs towards formulating an achievable twin-track course of action to meet practicable ends:

1. Previous participants in peace negotiations with Pakistan, and those with credible information (bureaucrats, military, politicians, advisors etc) must be informally persuaded through wide publicity/legally coerced with absolution from prosecution for any infringement of law (Official Secrets Act) into revealing all that they know. This is indisputably in the larger interest of human justice. The primary thrust of the legal argument keeping this subject worthwhile, is what was stated at the beginning of this missive:
``It is incredible that the POWs have all simply vanished into thin air when the war ended in 1971, and that no evidence of their remnants exist``.
(A similar move could be informally initiated in Pakistan by the media and NGO`s. The spin-offs are substantial in furthering friendly relations between the two peoples of the present and future generations who carry no blame for past hostilities between the two nations).
Possibly there is a misconceived interpretation of what constitutes `secrecy out of compassion`, by those holding back. They must `speak out` now, even after 35 years, so that the wounds do not fester.
For sure it will be a long and protracted process as the facts are collated, for missing portions of history to get dispassionately updated. This is imperative for the faith of citizenry in democratic governance, and plain human decency.
I am not a legal expert, but I can suggest that active NGOs pursuing this matter `re-introduce` a well-defined PIL, as also petition our President.

2. Persuade Pakistan to actively cooperate in searching/rescuing/restoring any material that may have survived all these years. These should be handed over to the families through discreet NGOs

For this mission to succeed, the media `tamasha` MUST be kept totally out of this effort, till `after` it has been achieved. A guarantee of confidence to this effect must be made by all concerned. A vital and encouraging cog in bringing such a scheme to fruition is the President of Pakistan, General Musharraf. We must take him by his word when he claims that being a soldier himself, he is not devoid of compassion when it comes to the subject of the missing POWs. The General`s proactivity in facilitating this would immediatey ameliorate a small but vital portion of the pain by way of the sentimental memorablia being handed to the families of the missing POWs. He would deservedly earn our gratitude, and establish his image as a humane person.

I have noted on this blog-site the participation of many influential and concerned parties. I therefore hope the `message` reaches general Musharaff, because he HAS the power to help us realise what many would cynically dismiss as a `pipe-dream`..

With all hope
pushpa

i wish i cud explain how deeply i was moved by the fact that many people have wasted their lives in dark prisons as nameless prisoners......three decades is a long time i keep wondering what happened...and i didnt even know that prisoners from 1971 war are still imprisoned......insane attitude of the goverments.......thanx for this information........
Ammara

Anny behanji, maufi chahta hoon. Aap mujhe thappad mat mariye. However, I don`t see any reason to apologize to YLH. He is hypersensitive and that makes him stupid. If you see he hogs 40% of all message space. He can`t make his point and bad mouths everybody who disagrees with him. I have to call a spade a spade.

YLH, you painted a very contrived picture of Jinnah. If you want I can paint you a picture of the devil where he is kindness personified.

How about the following scenario? Don`t you think the following is much more plausible. Jinnah was a power hungry politician. First he tried to share power projecting himself as a secular leader. When that didn`t help he resorted to communalism. That is easily explained by the death of half a million people because of his insistence on partitioning India. If he was really so caring about minorities would he have wanted Pakistan at the cost of million lives. He cared two hoots for minorities and that very well comes out from how the minorities have been wiped out from Pakistan.

You can scream all you want, but you will never be able to explain how at 1947 Pakistan started out with 10% minorities and has reduced them to 2% in 1990.

If Hindus were really as cruel as you say the minorities wouldn`t have increased from 15% in 1947 to the current 20%.

I am sorry that Pakistan has been spawned by the devil himself. But that can`t be an excuse to post zillions of posts that go nowhere.

Ref wholly-precious-you #: 214

[``2 Lower your standards.``

...yes, but zafarsaab, how low can we go?...]

While not recommending it, the name of Ali1 comes to mind as being as low as one can get.

come now zafarsaab

ure not ugly..anything but

Zafarsaab:

``I am old enough, and ugly enough, to know when the writing becomes illegible (aka one of those questions there is NO faida in answering - sort of like ``so, is this slimming`` if you will excuse the corny stereotype...)

Aap ne kya likkha? I`m sorry, eyesight fading...``

....no faida, huh?...:)

Reply RSax, Semietc. Sadna

Reply semipreciousme # 214

``2 Lower your standards.``

``...yes, but zafarsaab, how low can we go?...``

I am old enough, and ugly enough, to know when the writing becomes illegible (aka one of those questions there is NO faida in answering - sort of like ``so, is this slimming`` if you will excuse the corny stereotype...)

Aap ne kya likkha? I`m sorry, eyesight fading...

Reply RSax#: 213

``...plus, convertibles have no backseat ;)``

Jee haan, aur backseats se aap ko kya? Keep this up dude and I am writing about you in samna

Reply Sadna

Yes - indeed - but the point is once you`ve got the bucks you can pay someone else to move it around for you...but then, what`s the point of a convertable if you can`t enjoy hooning around in it yourself, I say?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

``2 Lower your standards.``

...yes, but zafarsaab, how low can we go?...

re: Zafar

{{RSax, yaar, I`m standing up for NYers who own convertables and are into dental hygeine.

Iss men kaun si buri baath hai?}}

koi buri baath nahi, but it is done in private!!!!

{{And don`t give me that NYers don`t buy cars line. Without a car how ya gunna get to your place in the Hamptons? LIRR? Don`t be SILLY!!!!!}}

yes, the LIRR!! plus, NYers have found other secret hangout places for the summers...only the recent arrivals (aka wannabes) still go to the hamptons...

{Look, you buy that convertable with an easy mind - I will take care of all mockers and nasty minded people.}}

never!! plus, convertibles have no backseat ;)

re: spout

{{dude stop being so obsessive about religion}}

i was referring to 12-head`s sermons to muslims on chowk...semipreciousme picked up on it, but too bad it flew over your head :( ... what`s going on scout aunty?....you`ve been slipping the past few weeks....

Zafar #209

``you buy that convertable with an easy mind``

Zafar, soch lijiye. One might well need a trust fund for the bechari car`s garage, which will not be rent-controlled. Or one may instead need to invest in an alarm clock to wake up early every day (except during Passover, Rosh Hashannah, Hannukah and St Patricks Day) to move the car to the opposite side of the road for `alternate side parking`.

Matlab pehle house in the Hamptons, phir car. Phir tho chauffeur-wali long limousine bhi aa sakthi hai, tho flossing kya, even a bathtub will fit inside, and moreover clog up the traffic some more :)

suxena #207,

dude stop being so obsessive about religion

harimau,

trolling for dates? on Chowk? what the hell?

RSax, yaar, I`m standing up for NYers who own convertables and are into dental hygeine.

Iss men kaun si buri baath hai?

And don`t give me that NYers don`t buy cars line. Without a car how ya gunna get to your place in the Hamptons? LIRR? Don`t be SILLY!!!!! Doesn`t go there. (Look, you buy that convertable with an easy mind - I will take care of all mockers and nasty minded people.)

Ladies, the way I see it, you have a couple of options if you require change in this department:

1 Change your social circles.

2 Lower your standards.

Best wishes to all. God Bless NY! (Oh, and DC, and Karachi, bhai, wherever, okay, I`m not small hearted about this.)

Zafar

RSaxena

``scout, anNy, and semipreciousme, just wait till 12-head uncle sees what gaandi baatein you people are indulging in here...i am sure he will agree you are a kaala nishaan on your religion...``

....i`m surprised deepika/fatimah haven`t shown up yet and given us their `gems` on good islamic behavior for females...

this board is deteriorating fast...

scout, anNy, and semipreciousme, just wait till 12-head uncle sees what gaandi baatein you people are indulging in here...i am sure he will agree you are a kaala nishaan on your religion...

sadna and zafar, no more cracks about NYC...i can tolerate nonsense about India here and there, but not about NYC...be warned!

Ref anNy #: 205

[semi

i feel your pain..i do i do :( ]

Ref semipreciousme #: 204

[scout:

``all the cute guys are either gay or pretentious little freaks``

....sigh....trust me, it`s not just limited to ny....must be some kind of jewish-hindu conspiracy against us nice muslim girls...]

Ref scout #: 201

[my problem with NY...

all the cute guys are either gay or pretentious little freaks]

It`s time for Chowk to initiate a policy against trolling for dates.

PS. Ladies, you are giving ideas to Stuka, who doesn`t need any.

semi

i feel your pain..i do i do :(

scout:

``all the cute guys are either gay or pretentious little freaks``

....sigh....trust me, it`s not just limited to ny....must be some kind of jewish-hindu conspiracy against us nice muslim girls...

Reply Zik...ko 199

DRUMZ - traitor

SCOUT - traitor

Such R.E.S.P.E.C.T ...such love...all for my insignificant self? I am overwhelmed. BTW, have you two heard that it is an honor to be a traitor among villains, even if those villains be very sweet Chowk posters?

my problem with NY...

all the cute guys are either gay or pretentious little freaks

saminashah #185
``by all means, lets make fun of NY``
The 9-5 sweating poet Joe with the backpocket was particularly good, there`s some good in NY and black afterall...

RSaxena #192
``anyway, most NY-ers don`t even own cars...``
Yep, or surely they would make a run for it..

Zafar #195
Regardless of the situation with teeth, perhaps your Immortal Annie was actually singing about sigalph`s SUVs, which allow the heroic to take a chance with that treachorous one mile over empty suburban streets to the local store...

Lajwanti;

What the Fck is the matter with you, you dyslexic freak? What are you javed iqbals homo lover? get your mouth off his gonads and learn to speak properly, faggot.

Lucknow girls learning judo and karate?

.... *notes in his diary * MUST visit home this summer...

Reply Zikko #179

re Rsaxena

``...no new yorker worth his/her black turtleneck would ever drive a red convertible...how juvenile...how southern...how californian...how midwestern..``

Hey, don`t throw us normal Midwesterners in with your Left Coast(CA) or the hicks (South). For the record our vehicle of choice is the SUV!

Reply Saminashah, Sadna # 183

“Yes, the black thing gets me.”

Must I spell it out ladies?

Black…is…slimming.

Why do you think burqahs are always black?

Anyway – wasn’t brown the black of the nineties? Don’t tell me we’re back to black now? Check with the Style God! (Though he put me in polyester when I sought advice, I’m warning you…)

Zafar

Sadna: “… I have seen a guy in a open RED convertible sitting in traffic flossing his teeth :).”

In the words of the Immortal Annie: Love is a stranger in an open car, tempt you in and drive you far awaaaaaay……(and you already know he has good dental hygeine. Subhanallah!)…

Reply Drumz # 181

“The man iz unphazable, untouchable and definately unfukwidable.”

Life is too short to spend it as the Energiser Bunny. (For one thing, how the hell does he go to the toilet, hain?)

Where are the Pinkyfeld lyrics?

ali1 #187,

i couldn`t, you bought every bottle, explains the insects you attract

re: saminashah/sadna

{{Hey, I`m sorry if loyal(and perhaps homesick like RSaxena) NY-ers found my remarks a little strong, it was not intended that way. I myself have a desi-ish soft spot for its unique bustle and wonderful variety(paradoxically!), though not for its traffic. Though even that can have its advantages, I have seen a guy in a open RED convertible sitting in traffic flossing his teeth :).}}

most NY-ers are that way...as soon as the leave the sacred land, they get homesick very quickly...traffic?...come on, you have to know how to navigate...use the roads no one knows about...know when/where to use the subway...

as for that uncouth guy flossing his teeth on the road, he must be a visitor from new jersey...no new yorker worth his/her black turtleneck would ever drive a red convertible...how juvenile...how southern...how californian...how midwestern..anyway, most NY-ers don`t even own cars...

{{Yes, the black thing gets me. By itself its as good a color as any, but in such quantities, it reminds me of those old pictures of Maoist China or Soviet Russia when every man and woman }}

black is so 2001...that whole new-yorker-in-black thing is a myth created by confused visitors, rednecks, and NY-er wannabes...the clowns you see on the streets are the visitors, with their greasy noses pressed up against the Saks windows...

Prem #184,

traitor

Man, there are times when I miss someone like Gowardhan.

But then, I would rather have a person like Bilal Ahmed back. Wonder how he is doing...

ali1 #188
`` Actually, its X-rated but R-rated versions are available for insecure, mentally underdeveloped folks. ``

You must really try to get out more and spend less time on social service.

`` You have been so sweet lately... whats up?``

I can think of at least two reasons, its either something in your food or perhaps you need professional help.

sadna # 169

[I can never aspire to the enlightening R-rated variety which are your speciality.]

Actually, its X-rated but R-rated versions are available for insecure, mentally underdeveloped folks.

You have been so sweet lately... whats up?

scout: did you try the YSL pdrfume that i recommended?

Reply # 179 Zico

[Ha! Did I hurt you ali1?]

No. Buttnozzles like you can`t hurt me.

[Because your consistently abusive racist posts are offensive to me.]

Good. That was the intention.

[You talk sense when you want to, so why the abuse?]

My abuse makes perfect sense. You will see the light some day.



[Call a truce.]

I was never at war with you, so lighten up.

Sadna,

A man in a red convertible flossing his teeth-you lucky, lucky young woman! My favorite NYork kvetch is the non-line at the bus stop...wait patiently at the bus stop for an hour, at the front of the line, and there will inevitably be someone who cuts you in front of you...its all you can do to smile and say ``The line`s behind me...``, because there is no line! There will never be a line! This is what I hate the most...plus people who throw trash on the subway or street, dog walkers who refuse to pooper-scoop, cell phone yappers, the broken car alarm that sounds off every 5 minutes at 2 a.m. and will the owner get it fixed? Nooooo....Your comments were characteristically good humored-no offense taken at all...come live in New York and people doubletake and point fingers if you say ``excuse me`` or ``sorry``...by all means, lets make fun of NY!

re: scout # 172

Scout, we love you.

saminashah #182
Hey, I`m sorry if loyal(and perhaps homesick like RSaxena) NY-ers found my remarks a little strong, it was not intended that way. I myself have a desi-ish soft spot for its unique bustle and wonderful variety(paradoxically!), though not for its traffic. Though even that can have its advantages, I have seen a guy in a open RED convertible sitting in traffic flossing his teeth :).

Yes, the black thing gets me. By itself its as good a color as any, but in such quantities, it reminds me of those old pictures of Maoist China or Soviet Russia when every man and woman was under duress to wear only regulation colors of black or blue.

And its very insidious. Go to a desi gathering like a wedding for example, and instead of enjoying the glorious and varied colors of the festive occasion, you see so many choosing to wearing black instead:(. Hope its not because noone wants to take a chance with anything else( come to think of it, that would be a lot like Maoist China and .. :))

Sadna,

I also totally don`t get the black clothes in NYC thing...its so counter-counter culture now...plus goatees and berets-a look I love on college kids, but on adults of a Certain Age-your art work better be phenomenal...poetry rule of thumb at Open Mikes-berets, black, dyed hair, dark shades, multiple piecings makes us (my crew) set the bar higher-in other words, we are harder on those who look artsy but don`t deliver the motts...we are a pissy lot, aren`t we? Give me the working Joe who works a grueling nine to five with a poem rolling in his/her head and doesn`t have time to change before a reading and has his/her poem folded up in her/his back pocket any day. But I digress...

regards

If this was a DRUMZ roll, scout would begin counting backwardz from 10 million (get to the damn point already). Its like watching a ventriliquist with a sock puppet try to psyche up her audience.

The man iz unphazable, untouchable and definately unfukwidable. And U can ask that annoying hero of urs (Who iz absolutely terrified of me) for an endorsement. I swear, if he ever found the courage, I`d take it to the next level on him. He`d either join witness protection or change his name (I have my money on dumporal). The myth is greatly exaggerated and I can prove it... But alas, he`s hiding/ducking/running/sweating...

Drumz

Mumia Abu Jamal`s case is sadly, moving forward incrementally; slightly good news, but don`t know if it will mean anything...I used to be able to hear his radio essays from lockdown on my proggie Pacifica station, but internal politics on my station have made that impossible for the last 7 months...same with Leonard Peltier...

soundmeister

ABCD:

All Believing, Charing and Doing

:)

Rsax

True dat...one of my greatest moments on the #9 downtown was listening to an older African American woman with flowers in her hair, singing and selling wilted, browning orchards. It was late afternoon and she, thin, nearing her jones, was crooning while slowly walking around passing around flowers...damned if she didn`t sound like Lady Day...we all listened in amazement and knew we were honored to be in her presence...

ali1;

``Thanks for your vigilance and protecting decent chowk.com readers from vulgar postings written by hate filled individuals like Zico. Please rest assured that I have not intention of responding to such cheap personal attacks``

..................................................

Ha! Did I hurt you ali1? Good, because that was the intention. Because your consistently abusive racist posts are offensive to me. You talk sense when you want to, so why the abuse?

And unlike you dropping daisy cutters on the entire Hindu people, my abuse is precision guided to only you, in response to your putrid ``jokes`` about Hindu Gods, Sai Babas penis, I didnt respond with similar obscenities about Mohammed or Allahs whatever...get the message? I am perfectly prepared not to drop acid bombs in your face if you want to be mature, but if not, I will continue to get down to your level, and worse.

Call a truce.

khamkhwa #176
Hey whatever floats your boat..

DRUMZ #175,

don`t provoke me...or else.....

sadna-147

``and if your precious Musharraf keeps his word about jihadis I will no longer feel the need to post here.``

That would be the day.We will call it ``Youm-e-najaat.``

Scout: Dont sing it, bring it.

DRUMZ #170,

your just digging your grave deeper and deeper brother

isnt urstruly also not on the moderated list?

LOL

Prem #163,

traitor

And speaking of weak minds... Nobody, but NOBODY can tell me where my fam starts and stops. So some foolish Kings and beaurocrats divided up the great subcontinent 50+ years ago, Im supposed to divide my roots too?

Somebody explain to me how weak one has to be to call himself an indian or paki. That u can allow people born before u to dictate where ur own land iz. People risk their lives for their country and yall just take what ur given, never question it and even DEFEND it?!

And scout takes an early lead...

``don`t talk about me behind my back...it`s so damn annoying.``

splain how I can do anything behind anyone`s back on the INTERNET... (unless your asz is the size of the equator - itz a joke - that makes no sense).

Anaryan: I already said I was Paki so the chances of me having Either ``Muhammed`` or ``ali`` in my name are steady at 89%. That I have BOTH of them in my name should reveal something about the creativity level of my parents...

U know what Namaste means right? Splain how these evil ``adults`` have stolen the minds of the youth and brainwashed them into thinking humbility is God-like. So even when someone is great and knows he`s great, he`ll still say ``I have much to learn...`` What kinda sh1t iz that (WHOM are they trying to fool)??? We have people masquerading their true opinions under the guise of humility (and really self righteousness).

Why the hell can`t we walk around as gods on this plane(t). Look, I WILL change the world, period. I dont want anything to do with people who arent like minded. We`re Gods not slaves. That sheepish, weak azz defeatest mindset can hit the road. If ur great, say ur great (dont lie to yaself and us).

The worldz GREATEST.

(((I should say this post is REACTIONary)))

ali1 #167
`` Your nautankis remind us of the ungrateful nature of Indians...``

You are protected from obscene posts so what are you whining about now? If chowk staff doesnot respond to my repeated requests over the last year to be put on the moderated list, thats their problem and yours.

And I am immeasureably grateful for all my interactions with you ali1, donot worry.

`` I hope it never happens, we`ll all miss your nautankis so much, won`t we?``

I donot think so. I can never aspire to the enlightening R-rated variety which are your speciality.

Farzana & other chowkies -

Farzana recently reviewed Gadar for us. Here is another review. This time from other side of broder - will Farzana or somebody else care to review it further for us --

(and before you start picking spellos in following - it has been taken from www.funkar.com)

---- Moosa Khan

The son of a ever remain, legend producer of our film industry Riaz Shahid and his mother the most fantasy heroine of her time of our country Neelo, now you must be recognize who is this? Yes you are right he is the only and only one Shan of our film industry SHAN. After the countrywide success of Guns and Roses ik junoon and Mujay chand chaye, this year he is again coming for making your Eid unforgettable with full of creativity and innovation in MUSA KHAN. This time he is not coming only as a director but also as a producer for entertaining us in excellent way. You will find the touch of Zarqa and Ye Amman (most block bluster movies of our industry) that he inherited from his father.

History always repeats itself, In those nations where we find rising of black Sun at day and at night appearance bloodish moon where bloodshed is every where ,criminal become a King. Truth is at our foot and lie is the crown of our head. Here always God Almighty send a Musa among the same nation who covers river Neil and desserts with all the hardships for crushing Ferone.

In this ultimate movie we again find one Musa who is fighting against the community of Ferone for bringing them at right path of Islam, but this time not in Egypt in Kasmeer Nagar (a small town) here the population consist on 60% of Hindus and 40% of Muslims .In this movie you will find Shan is fully participating for offering his services with the community of Ferone (shafqat Cheema, Tariq Shah and Hamayu Qurashi) for the development of evil day and night by joining hands with Hindus. Actually Shan is the son of Mufti Shaib of Kasmeer Nagar . How Shan become a worst guy of Kashmir Nagar? Why he joins hand with Hindus? Who is the Musa ? How Musa crushes all the evil people? Is he succeeded in his mission? You will get the answer of all these question in the wonderful movie of Shan MUSA. MUSA KHAN is the fight between Peace and war, The race between nobility and crime.

You will find Shan in this movie at the peak of his carrier with the versatility of acting and direction. This unique piece of art is actually a religion movie with the touch of love, romance, comic and action. Samia is appearing with full of her innocence, you will really appreciate her acting. John Rambo first time is appearing on screen as serious and mature actor acting with his comics. You will definitely appreciate his performance. Laila and Ali Humza first time get the chance to show their abilities. Young and talented singer Jawed Ahmed compose all the songs with melodious and lovely tunes.

It is the most expensive movie of our film industry the cost is near about TWO BILLIONS

The whole movie is shooted at the beautiful locations of Swat Valley and at the barren land of Chelass Fort which indicates two opposite pictures of life (good and Ugly). Even the horses are used in this movie are Arabian Horse, a same horse is used by Musa in the whole movie where ever he is in Swat or in Chelass Fort. From this thing you can imagine how much hard work done on it. The direction and the production of the movie are really marvelous. Along with the disaster action you will find in it love and romance with Grate God Almighty and with his nation. There is a long impact lesson for Muslims in this movie.

Reply # 147 sadna

[``Chowk Staff This last nautanki reminds me(thankfully) that this is a Pakistani site``]

Thats why they let you call them ``Pukistani`` and

thats why your posts are posted on chowk the moment you excrete them? Your nautankis remind us of the ungrateful nature of Indians...

[``and if your precious Musharraf keeps his word about jihadis I will no longer feel the need to post here.``]

I hope it never happens... we`ll all miss your nautankis so much, won`t we?

RSaxena #158
Um thanks for the tips, brings back memories of journeys back in desh :).

Though re NY wish I could figure whats the fun in being forced to squeeze past the eternally double-parked and dodge the crazies which arenot, simply to get from point A to a nearby point B on legitimate business? Or measure ones worth in the world with the street number on ones address or have to seek meaning in the saga of so many people piled upon each other anyhow on a small island(or two), all wearing black ...?

Oops, NOW I am condemned to eternal hell :)

ali1 #146 ``Thanks for your vigilance and protecting decent chowk.com readers from vulgar postings written by hate filled individuals..``

Ha! Ha! It is too bad that you have had to put up with such vulgarities on the internet.

audio-video-radio # 152

I am not sure why I should respond to you. One, I detest you. Two, I care deeply for someone who does not support homosexuality. Three, you are likely to use any information I provide against Pakistan, justified or not.

Still, since you claim to be a sociologist, and sociologists are supposed to possess a ``sociological imagination,`` it will require no intelligence on your part to see that the whole issue of homosexuality is tied up with other issues of deviance, control, and therefore, modes of control such as religion. I hope you will read the following to understand that when it comes to sex, Pakistan is just like any other society, normal or abnormal.

Info:

To begin, you may want to read the book ``Islamic Homosexualities: Culture, History and Literature,`` published by the NYU Press. The book is written by Stephen Murray and Will Roscoe, and situates the problem in the context of a religious identity.

More specific to Pakistan, look into research on the subject of Pakistani homosexuality, conducted by some Pakistanis (can`t recall their names right now) at the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health. Their conclusion, if I remember right, was that excessive focus on segregating males and females was a primary cause leading men to turn into homosexuals. IMO, that is only a partial explanation.

For the legal, formal status of homosexuals and homosexuality in Pakistan, go to -

http://www.ilga.org/Information/legal_survey/asia_pacific/pakistan.htm# *Laws

The World Health Organization has also been concerned about the spread of HIV/AIDS in Pakistan, as in India, accelerated by these societies` refusal/inability to confront the issue of homosexuality openly. Visit their website at

http://www.who.int

and you will get a ton of information on Pakistan, homosexuality and AIDS.

DRUMZ,

I wouldn`t know much about them. My guess is one of those two good ladies is bad, while the other is worse.

saminashah #120:

ABCD nahin maloom? Just about sums up the Indians and Pakistanis on chowk and elsewhere... show this list to your Ummi...

RSax et all: *Atal Behari Cool Daddy....

*Al-Qaeda Bal-Qaeda Carnivorous Dacoits

Urstruly at al: *All Brahmins Cruel Dalitbashers

*All Bharatiyas Cowardly Dogs

Baaki junta: *Arre Bhai, Cool Down

*Asians Bhai-Chaara Dikhaye

ali1 et al: Arre BhoCD ke...

..... and ultimately....

Shankar et al: All bloody crude desis

Hope this clarifies :),

SM

Reply ali1, AVR # 157

``Reply # 152 audio-video-radio

[As a student of socialogy, I am genuinely interested to know about the gay community, its size, prevalence and potentiality in Pakistan]

Dear avr, I cordially invite you to Pakistan to explore the size, potential etc. I assure you a most memorable and pleasurable stay``

Hmmm...this sounds like a less than completely altruistic invitation. Khair...AVR, please have a shower before going and also wear clean chaddees. Desh ki izzat ka savaal hai...

Reply Ali1 #157

Reply # 152 audio-video-radio

[As a student of socialogy, I am genuinely interested to know about the gay community, its size, prevalence and potentiality in Pakistan]

Dear avr, I cordially invite you to Pakistan to explore the size, potential etc. I assure you a most memorable and pleasurable stay.

........... 1 down 71 to go ................



Plz I am begging dO NOT; FALL INTO TRAP!!!! Why you are pretending to know size and all these things, pleasrable etc. hain? Plz kep focus on Hindia, not on dirty things. This is haram.

I amstill stadning up for you. Otherpeople arenot - LEARNB FROM MISTAKE!!!!!!!

re: sadna

{{Hey, are you saying things would be dull here without Indians around ?}}

of course...what makes chowk entertaining?...romair`s broken-record rantings about PAF and Kashmir?...hobbyty`s sermons for all to join islam?...without indians around to shoot down these messages, there would be nothing going on...they`d all agree with each other...hamidm would go mad without horrible indians, particularly hindoos, around...don`t you think?....

{{Wait-a-minute, tons? Perhaps you ought to share your secret with us chowkwallahs, there are many needy souls here.. :)}}

...if you`re in new york, there`s no shortage of interesting and inte