1971: A Forgotten Story

Wrongly reported me to be with Chowk.com.

C.

The SF Chronicle

Sunday, January 6, 2002

Indian-Pakistani

peace gathering

Indian and Pakistani Americans in the Bay Area are doing something their respective homelands are having much difficulty with right now -- coming together for peace.

Dozens of mostly first- and second-generation Indian and Pakistani Americans spent New Year`s Eve at a rally and candlelight vigil in San Jose`s Cesar Chavez Park. The rally was hosted by the Friends of South Asia -- a Silicon Valley South Asian group that formed recently in response to escalating tensions between India and Pakistan.

``Pakistanis and Indians live congenially here, and seeing the hatred coming for our homelands grieves us tremendously,`` said Ali Hasan Cemendtuar from Chowk.com. Others in the community joined the rally, and as the clock struck midnight, calls for peace were chanted in English, Hindi and Spanish. A similar rally is planned near Union Square in San Francisco.

-- Raj Jayadev

Imagine my surprise, STUPID POSTS....

Do u people ever think???

Only desi pseudo intellectuals can take a crystal clear issue and REPEATEDELY cloud it with religion and politics.

Farzana: Its been one of my fantasies to retire in S. Asia. Before I get too old to walk, Id LOVE to rush a jail and take out every policeman in sight. What could be greater then walking into a torture cell and blasting the ``cop`` execution style. Damn that would be amazing!!!

South Asia war could be biggest since WWII

By Martin Sieff

UPI Senior News Analyst

Published 12/28/2001 4:25 PM

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=28122001-033416-9808r

WASHINGTON, Dec. 28 (UPI) -- A conventional war between India and Pakistan would be like a battle between a giant tiger and a huge elephant.

As the two gigantic nations, the second and sixth most populous in the world, ominously gear up for what could be an enormous war, the capabilities

and resilience of both of them are vastly underestimated in the outside world.

But in practice such a conflict, even if it does not go nuclear, would be one of the largest conflicts in human history. It would certainly involve the largest ground battles the world has seen since the four-year clash between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that was the heart of World War

II.

That war, called later ``Hitler`s War on Russia`` by best-selling German popular historian Paul Carell, and known by Russians to this day as ``The

Great Patriotic War,`` saw at least 35 million human beings killed, 27 million of them Russians and between 5 million to 7 million of them Germans. Those

death tolls dwarfed the losses of every other World War II combatant except China and the Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust.

It has become fashionable in recent years for U.S. leaders, Republican and Democrat alike, to describe Pakistan as a ``failed state,`` a description

once most famously used by President Clinton`s second national security adviser, Sandy Berger.

But a vast nation of 140 million people that has successfully developed and maintained nuclear weapons and the missile systems to deliver them,

albeit with major help from its allies, can hardly be described as a ``failed state.`` And as anyone with any familiarity at all with Pakistan knows, if

there is one institution in that nation that has not ``failed`` but still performs effectively, it is the army.

In 1999, Pakistani forces in the icy reaches of the Himalayas achieved embarrassing tactical surprise in the Kargil conflict when they occupied

key heights, taking the Indian army on the other side of the disputed Line of Control totally by surprise.

India then deployed overwhelming force, rolled the Pakistanis back and claimed the victory. But it was neither easy nor cheap. Indian casualties

are estimated to have been in the thousands.

In the months after that conflict, Indian military analysts openly warned in newspapers that Pakistani units in general appeared far more flexible and capable of rapid, surprise operations than their own far more numerous forces. It is that contrast that gives rise to the comparison and contrast between the tiger and the elephant.

The Pakistani tiger is a well-trained, well-motivated force. The best and brightest in Pakistan seek to join the army, especially as officers. Pakistani troop units move and deploy rapidly and efficiently and orders are issued and carried out with a minimum of fuss.

The Indian elephant has far larger reserves of manpower it can call upon from its vast population of more than a billion people. But Indian administration and mobilization are bureaucratically complex. India`s consensual democratic system and federal political structure also add layers of complexity and slowness to mobilizing the nation`s resources.

If India were to take the offensive and score early successes, taking advantage of Pakistan`s current overstretched force deployment, these

drawbacks could be initially neutralized. Conversely, if Pakistan were either to strike first, or be able to mount outflanking operations against vulnerable Indian formations, it could cause disproportionate disruption.

The two most recent full-scale wars the two South Asian giants fought in 1965 and 1971 were short, straightforward, and both military and civilian

casualties on thin Kashmir were relatively light for the size of the combatants and the forces engaged. But a new conflict is likely to be far

different on all counts.

In the last full-scale war, fought 30 years ago in 1971, Indian forces had the enormous advantage of fighting an overstretched Pakistani

army torn in two between defending Kashmir and its own heartland in the west, and holding down what was then known as East Pakistan, today the

independent nation of Bangladesh, in the east. Although as Muslim as Pakistan, the people of Bangladesh had been mercilessly repressed by the

Pakistan army over the previous year and fought fiercely against it, giving crucial aid to India.

In any new conflict, this guerrilla, and popular insurgent factor would be on Pakistan`s side, not India`s. The population of Indian-controlled Kashmir

is overwhelmingly Muslim and over the past 12 years they have been heavily radicalized in support of Pakistan-based and supported mujahedin insurgent

movements.

Full-scale revolts and waves of guerrilla and terror attacks could prove as costly and disruptive as Soviet partisan activity did to the reeling German Army Group Center in the Battle of Byelorussia in June-July 1944.

Also, India has an enormous Muslim population of its own, around 100 million people. If even 1 percent, or one-tenth of 1 percent of them, were to be radicalized into active support of Pakistan, they could present an enormous disruptive fifth column threat on the home front. By contrast, there are almost no Hindus and very few other non-Muslim Indians in Pakistan.

However, if the war were to prove a long-term one, or even if Pakistan were to win striking short-term victories, it would be unlikely to wreck or even seriously damage the vast, grassroots patriotic commitment of Indians to defend their homeland and counterattack again.

The greatest danger that could make this war a long drawn-out one is that both Indians and Pakistanis look likely to grossly underestimate each other and the level of patriotic commitment and self-sacrifice on both sides.

The peoples of Europe thought that about one another when they stumbled into World War I in 1914. That miscalculation destroyed European civilization and paved the way for the even greater horrors of Nazi and Communist totalitarianism. The peoples of South Asia, Pakistani and Indian alike, do not want to make the same mistake.

Ras,

``...demented cries wafting towards his cell from the other side of the barracks...`` Right on Ras, they were indeed PPP supporters, some from the MRD as well. Mushtaq Gazdar made a documentary on this (I think it was called `Halqa meri zanjeer ka`) he got some hazy footage of PPP workers being tortured by Pakistan police. I don`t know if you can get it now. I saw it at Jaun Ailiya`s house a long time back... You might want to ask Rehan Ansari, he seems to be more in touch with the film media in Pakistan.

Farzana,

Thanks for bringing up the issue, but please be a little less melodramatic. Histrionics won`t substitute for sincerity; we know you care... chill out and keep on writing!

Cheers,

Faisal

MANOJ #28

``...his is what they have done over the centuries, son killing father, brother mudering brother.... is very common theme in Islamic history. ``]]

REALY Beta brain washed Manoj

! stories of `balidan` of killing children for useless animilistic worship of vestigeal practiceses of 6000 yrs old ,is hinduism ,and you have Chutzpah of crticizing islam

Selective abortion of KILLING YOUR OWN BLOOD & FLESH FEMALE for avoiding DOWRY, practice is Hinduism

40 million sex workers are women due to abandonment of women due to 2 nd class treatment of women ,Devdasni ,neglecting daughter over SONS,is hinduism

Burning women for dowry is hinduism

No right to divorve your husband is hinduism

No right to fulL property of Fathers property for women is Hinduism

WE atleast dont do those things on our own if anything we do ACCORDING TO YOUR HINDUTVA BRAIN WASHED MIND.

And yes all that Manoj Kumars feel good movies are movies fantasy dont take it seriously he is neither a sole spokesman of hindutva hindians or india like you

Dear Trojan Colt,

``Trojan Colt is NOT a Animal you fool``

Colt???...Colt...off course...COLT...the gun that won the west!!! Oh my God! I really am a fool!

Sorry, TC, I thought you were born of horse seed. Thanks for letting us know that you are actually Son of a Gun!

best regards,

re: prem

{Aamir bhai,}

you consider 12-head a `bhai?` wow

Dear DRUMZ,

Reading about nazca lines and smoking good weed...is an agreeable way to spend time. It can also make you feel you`re a couple of inches closer to heaven than your ignorant neighbour.

Chill out!

Doing nothing, grass grows by itself.

regards,

Faisal: ``Thanks for bringing up the issue, but please be a little less melodramatic. Histrionics won`t substitute for sincerity; we know you care... chill out and keep on writing!``

I suppose she`s sounding too much like a human... We all know Europeans (and their admirers) value ``objective`` robotic writing.

``The country stands silent. Not one political party has included the return of our POWs in its manifesto. Why?``

Good question, Farzana. And one your detractors on this board seem to be happier to avoid than to attempt to answer.

IMHO it`s because our politicians prefer populism (easy) to patriotism (hard). Apparently they are not alone in this.

Zafar

Farzana
Why depend on the govt? How about a demand to Musharraf signed by a million Indians for the return of the POWs?

I would request Indian families whose loved ones are in Paksitani jails for any reason to contact Mr. Ansar Burney at:

``ANSAR BURNEY WELFARE TRUST INTERNATIONAL``
(An International Human Rights Organization)

6 - HASAN MANZIL,
ARAMBAGH ROAD.
KARACHI. PAKISTAN.

Electronic mail address
contact@ansarburney.org

Office Phone
+ 92 21 2623382, 2623383

FAX number
+ 92 21 2623384

Mobile Phone
(Important/Emergency)
(Contact Name: Sarim Burney)
+ 92 300 243459

Mr. Burney has freed 100s if not 1000s of unfortunate souls from Paksitani jails who have been rotting for years-some even without trial. Some of the prisnors whom he freed should have been released years ago after completing their sentences but it is our legal, jurisprudence, and jail system inherited from British. Mr. Burney has been helping people long before the curse of NGOs was introduced in Pakistan-he is the one homegrown NGO that every Paksitani can take pride in. Their website is at:

www.ansarburney.org

JUST A MINOR CLARIFICATION

anarayan #8 is NOT temporal! (and no....nothing need be scratched from here..)

_______________________________________________

Ferz:

...we had a fine time...recuperating...before embarking on the final leg...yeah met some of them here too...more later...

love (with bspnp)

t

thanks Bijli for pointing out our weakness!!!

we are addressing them , but when will the

madrissa educated bigots address theirs :-)

Forget about couple of men lost more than 30 yrs ago.Havent more died in Indias created conflict & more since then

Real terrorist are scott free .........

I wonder what american sheeple say when confronted with reality?

http://www.abdulmalik.net/silence.php

If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11, please observe a moment of silence for the 5,000 civilian lives lost in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks.

While we`re at it, let`s have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the streets.

Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by the Taliban troups who were supported and trained by the CIA.

Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.

We`ve just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims throughout the world.

If you are still in awe, let`s have another hour of silence for all those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to admit.

Or for the massacre in Panama in 1989, where Americans troops attacked poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands more dead.

Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.

Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA sponsored civil wars and coups d`etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador to name a few).

Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Bagdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was there even any retaliation?

We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their vulnerability and the cowardly attacks and other tragedies that they have caused around the world.

The dead in other places hurt as much as the dead of the Towers.

Now, let`s talk about terrorism, shall we