1971: A Forgotten Story

My memory of 71 is so fuzzy ,excuse me ,if i seem too young for everyone else but

1/ was it Niazi who dropped the bomb on Kolai kund at the Army base in Barrackpore near Calcutta ?I faintly remember somthing like that

2/ Or was it that Pakistan at that time East Pakistan captured Birubari & triggered war?

3/ or they dropped a bomb on Howrah bridge ,that was very act of war ,must be why would india then bother to put its Son in the harm way .?

I think i ll never know why india ever was doing inside East Pakistan much before the 71 making Mukti Bahmini fight like the Americans did first with Taleban Then the Northern Alliance .

Nice article Farzana.

There is another struggle in our country where it seems our impotent and corrupt govt is basically working against victims of biggest corporate terrorism ever happened, yes thats Bhopal gas tragedy. Warren Anderson, Ex-CEO of Union Carbide is wanted on criminal charges related to Bhopal Gas tragedy, but our Americono-phile impotent govt does not even have guts to ask USA to extradite Warren Anderson. A court case is also being fought on behalf of victims in USA but the basic hurdle for them is that Indian govt itself is hindering the work of activists to get proper documents. Not surprisingly you would find many of our NRI bhais (who always hold moral high ground) working for Dow chemical (which acquired Union Carbide). I find this worse than working for D-gang.

that is a haunting article. If even half of it is true and Pakistan refuses to have international authorities verify her denials, then India can morally have no second choice: get the men out no matter what it takes.

Farzana:

A very poignant and heart-breaking story. I commend you for taking the effort to highlight the plight of families for whom the world has moved on without any concern. You have done the nation a service by bringing attention to an issue that suffers from official and private apathy.

How do we respond to this, Farzana? You`ve raised a lot of sensitive issues and their resolution doesn`t come that easily, at least not for me. I don`t know what to say.

And that`s not because I am a Pakistani but as a Muslim, and I use that term as it is meant to be used, ie, someone who enjoins the right and forbids the wrong and has faith in God, I find it a horror to think that we have these people suffering in our jails for a politically-motivated crime that wasn`t theirs to begin with.

I am reminded of an incident in the early days of Islam, when the Muslims had successfully warded off the Meccan army in the Battle of Badr. The Meccan prisoners of war feared for their lives for these were real criminals who had perpetrated the worst cruelty against the Muslims in their early Meccan days. However, their anxiety was in vain. With characteristic generosity and largeheartedness, the Prophet of Islam ordered that they be treated with kindness and that the victors, the Muslims, share equal mouthfuls of food with their prisoners.

Naguib Mahfouz, the Egyptian writer who won the Nobel Prize, said in his Nobel lecture, delivered to a distinguished audience in Stockholm:

``...As for Islamic civilization I will not talk about its call for the establishment of a union between all Mankind under the guardianship of the Creator, based on freedom, equality and forgiveness. Nor will I talk about the greatness of its prophet. For among your thinkers there are those who regard him the greatest man in history. I will not talk of its conquests which have planted thousands of minarets calling for worship, devoutness and good throughout great expanses of land from the environs of India and China to the boundaries of France. Nor will I talk of the fraternity between religions and races that has been achieved in its embrace in a spirit of tolerance unknown to Mankind neither before nor since.

I will, instead, introduce that civilization in a moving dramatic situation summarizing one of its most conspicuous traits: In one victorious battle against Byzantium it has given back its prisoners of war in return for a number of books of the ancient Greek heritage in philosophy, medicine and mathematics. This is a testimony of value for the human spirit in its demand for knowledge, even though the demander was a believer in God and the demanded a fruit of a pagan civilization.``

Should you meet them again, please convey my deepest condolences to the affected families and loved ones.

Regards,

Aamir

Dear Farzana,

Sure, nobody should join the Armed Forces. How many soldiers does the Pope have?

regards,

Veeresh

Assuming Farzana-ji is telling the truth...looks like at least Zia-ul-Haq understood the real worth of a pakistani soldier.

1 Indian = 5 pakistanis

What can we say when a commander has this opinion of his own soldier!

Farzi,

``Does not the appeal, “Join the army” sound like a slap to the parents, since they have been told he is not in the records?``

That should not bother you, should it? Tell me if anyone in your extended family has ever worn a uniform...and I`ll have the smelling salts ready (when I feel faint).

luv,

t

(oops, sorry. scratch t)

Farzana,

Here is news for you. Indian POW issue was raised as late as six months ago with the great ruler of your friends country and he has said that there are none in that godforsaken country. May be war and occupation of pakistan is the only way to be 100

percent sure. That is exactly what the indians are planning. So what is your complaint, for once there is agreement with you.

``The country stands silent. ``
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1815/18151280.htm
[Agra Summit in July 2001]

``...Vajpayee raised ``certain additional specific matters``. These related to the ``54 Indian POWs``, who India says are in Pakistani custody. Vajpayee also mentioned that ``some terrorists and criminals`` guilty of bomb blasts and hijacking were still present in Pakistan and should be handed back. Musharraf had earlier in the day vehemently denied that Pakistan held any Indian POW and suggested that this was one of the diversionary ploys of India aimed at shifting the focus away from Kashmir...``

Anarayan # whatever

Dude smarty chapee

My family adorned the uniform of Indian Army

Are you here to score points.Has your family except for waving bjp flag & riding on Majoritism done ANYthing .Or its all yours b/c you happen to be Hindu ?

Who fought for independence ,Vajpayee was a brit spy against freedom fighter .

Killer of father of Nation was a Hindu like you .In fact from the same faction as you Sanghi Parivar.

You think wrapping your self in safron make you Indian?Its not the national flag you know .

From now on ,i will only consuder the Muslim,christian,Sikh ,Non SAnghi Hindu as real ndian

Dear Farzana,

There are no Indian POWs in Pakistan`s custody. There could possibly be some detainees.

I `ll try to explain the difference. Pakistan was fighting simultaneously against the Indian army and Mukti Bahini terrorists. A number of Indian Army and BSF personnel in civilian clothes were fighting with the Bengali terrorists. Such regulars if captured are never considered as POWs.

The govt. of India made a calculated decision to support the terrorist movement in East Pakistan with arms and merceneries and got rich dividends. This support was fully backed by the people of India, so all this whining now doesn`t make much sense.

PS. Do you know that a number of Pakistani pilots who ejected after being shot in `71 are missing even now. No remains, no bodies, no notes slipped by visitors from India or Bangladesh, no screams heard by the inmates of Tihar or Dhaka jails.

Some widows(?), orphans(?) and parents are waiting in Pakistan too. Let me give you a list: Wing Cmdr Mervyn L Middlecoat, Wing Cmdr Muhammed Ahmed, Squadron Ldr Aslam Choudhry, Squadron Ldr Peter Christie, Flt Lt Saeed Khan, Flt Lt Safi Mustafa and Flt Lt Shahid Raza.

Maybe someday, some lucky day, when you don`t have to prove your nationalistic credentials to your hindu compatriots, you will be able take up their cause on humanitarian grounds.

Dear Farzana,

There are no Indian POWs in Pakistan`s custody. There could possibly be some detainees.

I `ll try to explain the difference. Pakistan was fighting simultaneously against the Indian army and Mukti Bahini terrorists. A number of Indian Army and BSF personnel in civilian clothes were fighting with the Bengali terrorists. Such regulars if captured are never considered as POWs.

The govt. of India made a calculated decision to support the terrorist movement in East Pakistan with arms and merceneries and got rich dividends. This support was fully backed by the people of India, so all this whining now doesn`t make much sense.

PS. Do you know that a number of Pakistani pilots who ejected after being shot in `71 are missing even now. No remains, no bodies, no notes slipped by visitors from India or Bangladesh, no screams heard by the inmates of Tihar or Dhaka jails.

Some widows(?), orphans(?) and parents are waiting in Pakistan too. Let me give you a list: Wing Cmdr Mervyn L Middlecoat, Wing Cmdr Muhammed Ahmed, Squadron Ldr Aslam Choudhry, Squadron Ldr Peter Christie, Flt Lt Saeed Khan, Flt Lt Safi Mustafa and Flt Lt Shahid Raza.

Maybe someday, some lucky day, when you don`t have to prove your nationalistic credentials to your hindu compatriots, you will be able take up their cause on humanitarian grounds.

I am simply not interested in what you think of me with regard to this article. The issue is more important. If there are any Indians or Pakistanis, especially those living in these two countries who can tell me how to approach relevant organizations, I would be very grateful.

There is no need to tell me that this subject was brought up six months ago. I know. I have mentioned it. “… and during the Agra Summit the subject about the return of our prisoners of war was raised. But it seems it is one more carrot-and-stick game between the two countries”. Get it?

And for those who prefer to believe certain ‘authorities’, you may find the evidence in the 1973 records of the International Red Cross, Zee TV made a documentary on the subject in 1992, then there is Victoria Scholfied’s book ‘The Bhutto Trial and Execution’, M.L. Bhaskar’s ‘I Spied For India’, and ‘Time’ magazine did a story in its issue dated December 27, 1971. This is for those who are deeply interested in the facts while being sarcastic about the truth, which is about human emotions.

Aamir Ansari:

I would like to thank you for a heart-warming post. We have been interacting only for a short while, but my respect for you has been increasing each time I read what you have to say.

Regards,

Farzana

...if any proof was needed to show how pitiable and incompetent both the govts. of pak and india are, this is it...

I am not sure what exactly Pak has to gain by keeping these 54 soldiers.

This appears somewhat similar to the American MIAs in Vietnam, who have never been found despite all sorts of evidence and claims.

The evidence of these persons presence in Pak seems sketchy at best; Surely we should have heard more from these folks through some channel or the other?

One conclusion we can come to is perhaps these MIAs (some of them) were in Pak at some point but met their end after capture.

It seems very unlikely we are going to see any of these folks in the future. Hopefully I am wrong.

Farzana you wrote:

``Can we get back our soldiers, please?``

If Pakistan still had them what would be the point of keeping them? And believe me I feel for the families of these people who are missing. And
it is good that you brought up this subject here on CHOWK where some people still uphold the causes of humanity.
In the same context could we also see a return of the thousands of Kashmiri youth ``missing`` from
Kashmir?

Pakistan and India have to improve their relationship period. The issue of Indian MIA`s
has been addressed before. If there is still a valid reason to continue to bring up this point then it needs to be within the realm of fact.

You also wrote,
``Zulfikar Ali Bhutto could not sleep. Every night he heard demented cries wafting towards his cell from the other side of the barracks. Where did those loud sobs emanate from? Who was being tortured? In prisons no one asked why. One of his lawyers made enquiries and was told by the jail authorities that they were Indian prisoners held after the 1971 war.


This bit of information comes from BBC correspondent Victoria Scholfied’s book ‘The Bhutto Trial and Execution’.``

I frankly think that this is bunk.
The India-Pakistan war was over in 1971-72. Bhutto Sahib was in Prison from 1977-79. It makes no sense that someone would live under ``torture``
for more than 5 years or last that long. Those were probably PPP supporters or leftists of Pakistani citizenship dubbed ``Indians``. In other words, people who I could relate to.

Victoria Scolfied`s book is really stretching the truth.

In conclusion here, I am in a way glad that you brought up this topic. The India-Pakistan relationship can be based on the human level only if we recognize that such inhumanity is wrong and needs to be corrected. And while we are at it, let us also apply the same yardstick to the plight of the Kashmiris.

Ras

Well Farzana you write really well..

But one really gets confused by the point you try to make, and if one compares two things written by you one gets more confused.. Basically even though you pick up deep touching relevant issues, you seem to dont care abt those issues but rather use those issues to bash your ``enemies``.. So one might get confused by the randomness in selection of these deep touching humane issues, but closer inspection reveals that the main thread across all your articles is bashing your enemy (BJP govt most of the times).. So whatever issue you pick up the target is same... And obviously you dont care to provide solutions for any of the issues you raise.. just put up some tears.. whole article sounds touchy, villain (in most cases BJP govt) gets villified... mission completed.. So in this article you question instead of Dawood why isnt govt going on war for those prisoners(everyone will agree with more humanitarian value of POWs being brought home.. ).. In previous article you were moaning how the dispute created by ``evil`` BJP govt with ``saintly`` nation of Pakistan is stopping you from loving the people across the border. Tommorow if we have some peace treaty between India and Pakistan and somehow Dawood is left off the hook, in your next article you will chronicle the injustices suffered by Bombay blast victims and how come their feelings were betrayed by the Govt.. ( everyone will agree.. target villified.. mission completed...)

To break you the news, all of us know our politicians dont value much the lives of common people getting killed by terrorists, all of us know our beaurocracy is inefficient and insensitive, all of us know political leaders might want to reap some political advantages from wars.. Please tell us something new.. All of us hate BJP and its communal ideology.. Dont make a mockery of deep sensitive issues which touch all of us to carry ur personal vendetta.

Re: Ras Siddiqi

``...If Pakistan still had them what would be the point of keeping them? ..``

It is a vicious cycle -- the belief is that once any side commits a mistake (ie. not handing over prisoners in a timely manner), then any `corrections` later on are made very difficult because it appears to acknowledge the earlier mistake. Ultimately, the lives of the prisoners are less important than the national ego. Thus, we have no return of American Korean war prisoners, or the captivity of Raoul Wallenberg (the Swedish diplomat captured by the Soviets -- he died in a Russian jail some 50 years later), amongst many, many others.

Trojan Colt,

(1)

``My family adorned the uniform of Indian Army``

Yea, Yea...I believe you. Btw, You have to be an indian...to be in the Indian Army.



(2)

``Are you here to score points.Has your family except for waving bjp flag & riding on Majoritism done ANYthing .Or its all yours b/c you happen to be Hindu ?``

The current number of people related to me in our armed forces in is the double figures. My own little contribution was to have worked for a defense research agency.

(3)

``From now on ,i will only CONSUDER the Muslim,christian,Sikh ,Non SAnghi Hindu as real ndian``

To quote amitabh bacchan (Namak Halal ?): ``consudering the consuderation that you are a pakistani, no one gives a consuder to your consuder-ing``!

get yourself a nice night-mare,



While we are all touched by her consuderation...Farzana-ji has not condescended to answer...does she have anyone in the armed forces ???

#: 20

anarayanTrojan Colt,

You must be the steno in the Defence Research Dept. of Indian Army ,my father talked about ,seeing flawless fingers like ladies in your key board skills.You needn`t try to divert discussion by showing that instead of ``i`` my executive hands fell on ``u``.. Big Deal .There is Transcriptist like you to care of that problem or even voice activated typing .I bet you could never do resesrch in Any dept .except type for my fathers colleagues.

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AAmir # 25

Aamir bhai, speaking of democide/genocide, I still shudder to think that (some officers in?)the Pakistani military had issued both verbal and written orders to kill all Hindus...

I mean, we are all familiar with religious biases, and minority members are killed far too frequently in our wonderful countries, but still...to read about such things...is enough to give a sinking feeling in anybody`s stomach.

Really, working for peace is not easy...but we must. We have all been animals at some time or the other...

ANOTHER REMEBERED STORY

Pakistanis are fond of blaming otheres, never to take responsibility for their own actions. Afghan crisis is the source of everything, now even the crime in karach is due to afghans. From dawn of today. Wake up pakistanis, how about the culture that hero worships gaznavi, the looter of the temples, how about the jihadic economic idea. Do you all know why polygamy is in islam, because men are supposed to be on jihad and get killed, the women produce more these jihadists, and that is how the jihadic economies work. Plunder and murder are norms. from dawn of today

``

after the breakdown of the law and order situation in Karachi in mid-1980s, more and more vehicles were being stolen or hijacked for covert operations - for robbing banks, committing dacoities or kidnapping moneyed people for ransom cases. It is a fact of life that some of the gangs operating in Karachi enjoyed the official patronage and support. Carjackers were also active in other cities or towns.

The Afghan jihad had contributed much to promote crime in Karachi and other cities. ``

well, I had the privilege of meeting Roop Lal Sharia in person some days back. For those who dont know this name, Roop Lal is an ex Indian army agent caught in Pakistan some 28 years ago and sentenced to death by hanging but released in 2000 due to intervention of Paki human rights activist Asma Jehangir and now staying in Delhi.

a) Roop Lal confirms presence of 1971 ex Indian armed forces men in Pakistani jails. He said however, in 2002 barely 2/3 were left to the best of his knowledge.

b) He speaks of torture ( but that is quite expected). But, what is interesting to hear from him is that there is no torture for those Sikhs/Hindu prisoners who have converted to Islam in Paki jails.

c) The prisoners are brainwashed into converting coupled with allurments, no torture deals etc etc.

d) Roop Lal suffers from partial paralysis of left side on acount of beatings and stay in prison.

For a country/people to whom killing, maiming, gouging out eyes, etc etc ( a la Lt. Saurabh kalia and others during Kargil) is part of their culture , this article does not sound strange. similar was the experience of Soviet Army at the hands of the afghanis. This is what they have done over the centuries, son killing father, brother mudering brother.... is very common theme in Islamic history.

Farzana Versey never disappoints.

anaryan,

You think that one has to be in the defence services to prove their loyalty to their nation. I am undermining the valour of those who protect their nation in the war front, but one should also acknowledge the effort of those who are into agriculture, production, management, social work, journalism, etc. These common people while getting along with the bussiness of life are also serving their nation in their own small or big way.

Farzana & other who have pointed out the issue of POW been raised earlier

I think what Farzana means is that at the moment when India is putting pressure on Pakistan for handing over the desired terrorists, it should also exert pressure for handing over the POWs. However Farzana, right now if any pressure is at all being exerted on Pakistan, it is only via US, that too only on the issue related to terrorism. If India is to push the issue of POW at this stage, it fears of losing whatever the grounds it might have gained so far. It is cruel but that is what those making the list of 20 terrorists must be thinking or rather they might not be thinking at all about POWs right now. In fact these or some other considerations must have been the reason for the government apathy towards its POWs, right from 71.

It was a very nice article. As an individual, I feel ashamed of myself for not doing anything for the family of POWs and for living in such comfort while those who fought for it have suffered along with their families.

Mona

So, even THIS article is seen as my “personal vendetta”! Please live with your delusions, people. I first wrote about it and met the families when the BJP was not in power. I have questioned every government prior and subsequent to that and hold them responsible. I have used the plural ‘governments’. It is foolish for some to suggest that a war is the only way to get something done. Stop using every trick in the book to incite baser instincts and get excited about it.

This is the result of a war. A war we had no business meddling in. Having said that, we have to find diplomatic solutions for the existing problem. Amnesty International can only pressurize the government. Can the citizens approach an international body like the UN? The legal opinion is this: “There is a certain protocol regarding the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights. The Government of India has not ratified a clause which says that citizens can directly approach the UN Commission of Human Rights.”

I would like to address a couple of interesting posts…

Ras (#17):

[If Pakistan still had them what would be the point of keeping them?]

It would be bad PR for the Pak government to now declare that it has those POWS and had merely suffered from amnesia all these years.

[The India-Pakistan war was over in 1971-72. Bhutto Sahib was in Prison from 1977-79. It makes no sense that someone would live under ``torture`` for more than 5 years or last that long.]

The torture need not have been continual; the POWS were being moved regularly from one prison to another.

[In the same context could we also see a return of the thousands of Kashmiri youth ``missing`` from Kashmir?]

Most certainly. You know my views on this subject at least. However, ‘where’ they are returned would be a moot point.

[And it is good that you brought up this subject here on CHOWK where some people still uphold the causes of humanity.]

I brought it up here to see if something can be done, that there might be people around who know how to go about it. Unfortunately, some Indians have decided to be completely impervious to this. I am indeed surprised.

ali1(#12)

If the Pakistani government is certain that there are no POWS, why do they agree to “look into the matter”?

I have stated that this war was none of India’s business, but to say that it had the complete backing of the people is not true. People do not support such movements unless they are directly affected by it (Kashmir, the North East, Telengana). Please remember that the influx of Bangladeshis has always posed a huge problem for most governments in India.

Yes, the Pak side has its side of the story to tell as well. I would like to know if any human rights organizations there are doing something about it. Since we do not get to hear much, I suppose it is not such a major issue. As indeed it is not here. Except for the families. I would feel as much for those families waiting for their sons, husbands, fathers on the other side of the border.

[Maybe someday, some lucky day, when you don`t have to prove your nationalistic credentials to your hindu compatriots, you will be able take up their cause on humanitarian grounds.]

Today is my lucky day. Tell me what I can do. I will. In my small way.

PS: This business about proving my nationalistic credentials to my Hindu compatriots was quite unnecessary, don’t you think, considering how insensitive some of them are even on such an issue? Therefore, the last thing I need is a certificate of my nationality and nationalism from people on an anonymous forum. And most certainly I would not want to prove it to Hindus, because I believe my country is a secular republic.



Regards,

Farzana

Mona-ji,

Don`t mind what I wrote to the arab steed!

I`m not saying anything is wrong about inquiring of our POWs. But knowing Farzana through her articles (did you read her Gadar review), I find it difficult to believe she could be remotely concerned about `our` soldiers. Sikhs particularly, are not high on her list of desirable people. She is the TNT child who got left behind.

Pakistanis on Chowk are writing aricles about how it would be a bad idea to go to war...and farzana is probably doing her bit.

regards,

Trojan Colt,

``You must be the steno in the Defence Research Dept. of Indian Army ,my father talked about ,seeing flawless fingers like ladies in your key board skills.You needn`t try to divert discussion by showing that instead of ``i`` my executive hands fell on ``u``.. Big Deal .There is Transcriptist like you to care of that problem or even voice activated typing .I bet you could never do resesrch in Any dept .except type for my fathers colleagues.``

Colt-senior (that fine arab steed) and his colleagues were last seen riding into the sunset under Osama and his colleagues.

Wrongly reported me to be with Chowk.com.

C.

The SF Chronicle

Sunday, January 6, 2002

Indian-Pakistani

peace gathering

Indian and Pakistani Americans in the Bay Area are doing something their respective homelands are having much difficulty with right now -- coming together for peace.

Dozens of mostly first- and second-generation Indian and Pakistani Americans spent New Year`s Eve at a rally and candlelight vigil in San Jose`s Cesar Chavez Park. The rally was hosted by the Friends of South Asia -- a Silicon Valley South Asian group that formed recently in response to escalating tensions between India and Pakistan.

``Pakistanis and Indians live congenially here, and seeing the hatred coming for our homelands grieves us tremendously,`` said Ali Hasan Cemendtuar from Chowk.com. Others in the community joined the rally, and as the clock struck midnight, calls for peace were chanted in English, Hindi and Spanish. A similar rally is planned near Union Square in San Francisco.

-- Raj Jayadev

Imagine my surprise, STUPID POSTS....

Do u people ever think???

Only desi pseudo intellectuals can take a crystal clear issue and REPEATEDELY cloud it with religion and politics.

Farzana: Its been one of my fantasies to retire in S. Asia. Before I get too old to walk, Id LOVE to rush a jail and take out every policeman in sight. What could be greater then walking into a torture cell and blasting the ``cop`` execution style. Damn that would be amazing!!!

South Asia war could be biggest since WWII

By Martin Sieff

UPI Senior News Analyst

Published 12/28/2001 4:25 PM

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=28122001-033416-9808r

WASHINGTON, Dec. 28 (UPI) -- A conventional war between India and Pakistan would be like a battle between a giant tiger and a huge elephant.

As the two gigantic nations, the second and sixth most populous in the world, ominously gear up for what could be an enormous war, the capabilities

and resilience of both of them are vastly underestimated in the outside world.

But in practice such a conflict, even if it does not go nuclear, would be one of the largest conflicts in human history. It would certainly involve the largest ground battles the world has seen since the four-year clash between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that was the heart of World War

II.

That war, called later ``Hitler`s War on Russia`` by best-selling German popular historian Paul Carell, and known by Russians to this day as ``The

Great Patriotic War,`` saw at least 35 million human beings killed, 27 million of them Russians and between 5 million to 7 million of them Germans. Those

death tolls dwarfed the losses of every other World War II combatant except China and the Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust.

It has become fashionable in recent years for U.S. leaders, Republican and Democrat alike, to describe Pakistan as a ``failed state,`` a description

once most famously used by President Clinton`s second national security adviser, Sandy Berger.

But a vast nation of 140 million people that has successfully developed and maintained nuclear weapons and the missile systems to deliver them,

albeit with major help from its allies, can hardly be described as a ``failed state.`` And as anyone with any familiarity at all with Pakistan knows, if

there is one institution in that nation that has not ``failed`` but still performs effectively, it is the army.

In 1999, Pakistani forces in the icy reaches of the Himalayas achieved embarrassing tactical surprise in the Kargil conflict when they occupied

key heights, taking the Indian army on the other side of the disputed Line of Control totally by surprise.

India then deployed overwhelming force, rolled the Pakistanis back and claimed the victory. But it was neither easy nor cheap. Indian casualties

are estimated to have been in the thousands.

In the months after that conflict, Indian military analysts openly warned in newspapers that Pakistani units in general appeared far more flexible and capable of rapid, surprise operations than their own far more numerous forces. It is that contrast that gives rise to the comparison and contrast between the tiger and the elephant.

The Pakistani tiger is a well-trained, well-motivated force. The best and brightest in Pakistan seek to join the army, especially as officers. Pakistani troop units move and deploy rapidly and efficiently and orders are issued and carried out with a minimum of fuss.

The Indian elephant has far larger reserves of manpower it can call upon from its vast population of more than a billion people. But Indian administration and mobilization are bureaucratically complex. India`s consensual democratic system and federal political structure also add layers of complexity and slowness to mobilizing the nation`s resources.

If India were to take the offensive and score early successes, taking advantage of Pakistan`s current overstretched force deployment, these

drawbacks could be initially neutralized. Conversely, if Pakistan were either to strike first, or be able to mount outflanking operations against vulnerable Indian formations, it could cause disproportionate disruption.

The two most recent full-scale wars the two South Asian giants fought in 1965 and 1971 were short, straightforward, and both military and civilian

casualties on thin Kashmir were relatively light for the size of the combatants and the forces engaged. But a new conflict is likely to be far

different on all counts.

In the last full-scale war, fought 30 years ago in 1971, Indian forces had the enormous advantage of fighting an overstretched Pakistani

army torn in two between defending Kashmir and its own heartland in the west, and holding down what was then known as East Pakistan, today the

independent nation of Bangladesh, in the east. Although as Muslim as Pakistan, the people of Bangladesh had been mercilessly repressed by the

Pakistan army over the previous year and fought fiercely against it, giving crucial aid to India.

In any new conflict, this guerrilla, and popular insurgent factor would be on Pakistan`s side, not India`s. The population of Indian-controlled Kashmir

is overwhelmingly Muslim and over the past 12 years they have been heavily radicalized in support of Pakistan-based and supported mujahedin insurgent

movements.

Full-scale revolts and waves of guerrilla and terror attacks could prove as costly and disruptive as Soviet partisan activity did to the reeling German Army Group Center in the Battle of Byelorussia in June-July 1944.

Also, India has an enormous Muslim population of its own, around 100 million people. If even 1 percent, or one-tenth of 1 percent of them, were to be radicalized into active support of Pakistan, they could present an enormous disruptive fifth column threat on the home front. By contrast, there are almost no Hindus and very few other non-Muslim Indians in Pakistan.

However, if the war were to prove a long-term one, or even if Pakistan were to win striking short-term victories, it would be unlikely to wreck or even seriously damage the vast, grassroots patriotic commitment of Indians to defend their homeland and counterattack again.

The greatest danger that could make this war a long drawn-out one is that both Indians and Pakistanis look likely to grossly underestimate each other and the level of patriotic commitment and self-sacrifice on both sides.

The peoples of Europe thought that about one another when they stumbled into World War I in 1914. That miscalculation destroyed European civilization and paved the way for the even greater horrors of Nazi and Communist totalitarianism. The peoples of South Asia, Pakistani and Indian alike, do not want to make the same mistake.

Ras,

``...demented cries wafting towards his cell from the other side of the barracks...`` Right on Ras, they were indeed PPP supporters, some from the MRD as well. Mushtaq Gazdar made a documentary on this (I think it was called `Halqa meri zanjeer ka`) he got some hazy footage of PPP workers being tortured by Pakistan police. I don`t know if you can get it now. I saw it at Jaun Ailiya`s house a long time back... You might want to ask Rehan Ansari, he seems to be more in touch with the film media in Pakistan.

Farzana,

Thanks for bringing up the issue, but please be a little less melodramatic. Histrionics won`t substitute for sincerity; we know you care... chill out and keep on writing!

Cheers,

Faisal

MANOJ #28

``...his is what they have done over the centuries, son killing father, brother mudering brother.... is very common theme in Islamic history. ``]]

REALY Beta brain washed Manoj

! stories of `balidan` of killing children for useless animilistic worship of vestigeal practiceses of 6000 yrs old ,is hinduism ,and you have Chutzpah of crticizing islam

Selective abortion of KILLING YOUR OWN BLOOD & FLESH FEMALE for avoiding DOWRY, practice is Hinduism

40 million sex workers are women due to abandonment of women due to 2 nd class treatment of women ,Devdasni ,neglecting daughter over SONS,is hinduism

Burning women for dowry is hinduism

No right to divorve your husband is hinduism

No right to fulL property of Fathers property for women is Hinduism

WE atleast dont do those things on our own if anything we do ACCORDING TO YOUR HINDUTVA BRAIN WASHED MIND.

And yes all that Manoj Kumars feel good movies are movies fantasy dont take it seriously he is neither a sole spokesman of hindutva hindians or india like you

Dear Trojan Colt,

``Trojan Colt is NOT a Animal you fool``

Colt???...Colt...off course...COLT...the gun that won the west!!! Oh my God! I really am a fool!

Sorry, TC, I thought you were born of horse seed. Thanks for letting us know that you are actually Son of a Gun!

best regards,

re: prem

{Aamir bhai,}

you consider 12-head a `bhai?` wow

Dear DRUMZ,

Reading about nazca lines and smoking good weed...is an agreeable way to spend time. It can also make you feel you`re a couple of inches closer to heaven than your ignorant neighbour.

Chill out!

Doing nothing, grass grows by itself.

regards,

Faisal: ``Thanks for bringing up the issue, but please be a little less melodramatic. Histrionics won`t substitute for sincerity; we know you care... chill out and keep on writing!``

I suppose she`s sounding too much like a human... We all know Europeans (and their admirers) value ``objective`` robotic writing.

``The country stands silent. Not one political party has included the return of our POWs in its manifesto. Why?``

Good question, Farzana. And one your detractors on this board seem to be happier to avoid than to attempt to answer.

IMHO it`s because our politicians prefer populism (easy) to patriotism (hard). Apparently they are not alone in this.

Zafar

Farzana
Why depend on the govt? How about a demand to Musharraf signed by a million Indians for the return of the POWs?

I would request Indian families whose loved ones are in Paksitani jails for any reason to contact Mr. Ansar Burney at:

``ANSAR BURNEY WELFARE TRUST INTERNATIONAL``
(An International Human Rights Organization)

6 - HASAN MANZIL,
ARAMBAGH ROAD.
KARACHI. PAKISTAN.

Electronic mail address
contact@ansarburney.org

Office Phone
+ 92 21 2623382, 2623383

FAX number
+ 92 21 2623384

Mobile Phone
(Important/Emergency)
(Contact Name: Sarim Burney)
+ 92 300 243459

Mr. Burney has freed 100s if not 1000s of unfortunate souls from Paksitani jails who have been rotting for years-some even without trial. Some of the prisnors whom he freed should have been released years ago after completing their sentences but it is our legal, jurisprudence, and jail system inherited from British. Mr. Burney has been helping people long before the curse of NGOs was introduced in Pakistan-he is the one homegrown NGO that every Paksitani can take pride in. Their website is at:

www.ansarburney.org

JUST A MINOR CLARIFICATION

anarayan #8 is NOT temporal! (and no....nothing need be scratched from here..)

_______________________________________________

Ferz:

...we had a fine time...recuperating...before embarking on the final leg...yeah met some of them here too...more later...

love (with bspnp)

t

thanks Bijli for pointing out our weakness!!!

we are addressing them , but when will the

madrissa educated bigots address theirs :-)

Forget about couple of men lost more than 30 yrs ago.Havent more died in Indias created conflict & more since then

Real terrorist are scott free .........

I wonder what american sheeple say when confronted with reality?

http://www.abdulmalik.net/silence.php

If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11, please observe a moment of silence for the 5,000 civilian lives lost in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks.

While we`re at it, let`s have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the streets.

Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by the Taliban troups who were supported and trained by the CIA.

Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.

We`ve just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims throughout the world.

If you are still in awe, let`s have another hour of silence for all those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to admit.

Or for the massacre in Panama in 1989, where Americans troops attacked poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands more dead.

Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.

Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA sponsored civil wars and coups d`etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador to name a few).

Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Bagdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was there even any retaliation?

We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their vulnerability and the cowardly attacks and other tragedies that they have caused around the world.

The dead in other places hurt as much as the dead of the Towers.

Now, let`s talk about terrorism, shall we

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20020106/cent2.html

Sunday, January 06, 2002





O what a lovely war!



ALTHOUGH war may not have actually broken out, there is plenty of action in evidence thanks to the rapid fire performances of our special battalions armed to the teeth — quite literally so — as they display their amazing military capabilities through words, words and more words.

The buff-coats who make up these squads may not have been put through the paces at Khadakvasla and Dehra Dun, neither do they sport epaulettes and uniforms, but that does not deter them in the least from being both bark- and battle-ready.

So let’s do a quick review of our brave men-out-of-uniform who never hesitate, even for a teeny-tiny moment, to get others to lay down their lives for the country.

The first, in my personal roll of honour, is our very dependable squad of NRIs or Non Resident Incendiaries, trained in the intricate weaponry of cyber-rattling. In rather well-feathered fox-holes some 10,000 km northwest of the Poonch sector (as the Boeing 747 flies), they keep a gimlet eye on the enemy and generally prepare themselves to wage relentless battle through their Compaq Pentium-4 missile delivery systems, especially designed to shoot e-mails across the world with the speed of light.

‘‘National honour demands that we teach the ENEMY a lesson it will never forget. So BOMB the bases,’’ they fire away on their laptops, ‘‘If we have to pay the ULTIMATE PRICE and engage in NUCLEAR WARFARE, so be it.’’ Such urgent instructions to countrymen and women left behind in Bharat Mata are inevitably followed by the injunction in bold lettering ‘‘LET US NOT BE COWARDS’’.

Good, soul-stirring stuff, just the thing we need here as we go about our little lives. The only problem though is that when our Non Resident Incendiaries speak of ‘‘our country’’ and ‘‘our national honour’’, one is never quite sure which country they really mean, seeing that most of them have long swapped the Tricolour for the Star Spangled Banner.

Then there is the other courageous lot who brave television lights, and selflessly give of their time and energy, night after night, screaming for the enemy’s blood. Although none of them has seen real action, they usually have an excellent war record, never hesitating for a moment to despatch the army to storm enemy lines the moment the cameras roll. I call them the Prime Time Platoon and their secret weapon is a glass of warm saline solution with which to gargle for 60 seconds once the night’s exertions are over, in order to keep the old vocal chords fitting fit for the next encounter in the studios.

The Bathetic Battalion come marching next. Don’t be fooled by the fact that this lot are mostly poets, or rather versifiers, whose verse seems to get worse and worse by the day so that one is tempted to term them ‘‘worseifiers’’. Yet they can, when the mood takes them and the desire to catch the eye of Poet-Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee overwhelms them, stiffen up the sinews, summon up the blood and produce quite a blast. Secretly, they all imagine that they are Atal Bihari Vajpayee, and produce poetry to match.

So one among them says, ‘‘Padosi to naag hai’’ (our neighbour is a snake) and the rest exclaim, ‘‘Wah, wah’’ in appreciation. Which encourages the man to burst out, ‘‘Padosi to naag hia, ise chandan na chadao tum...’’(our neighbour is a snake, let us not offer him sandal wood). Read such verse aloud on a cold wintry night to the enemy lines with the aid of foghorns, and the sheer velocity of its mediocrity is guaranteed to frighten them into abject surrender.

Which brings us to our elite corps, the Trishul Troops, who simply love a war, any war, even a nuclear one, as long as it wins them Uttar Pradesh — on the presumption perhaps that if Ram doesn’t work, Radioactivity might.

You may have noticed something rather curious about this entire lot who measure patriotism by the number of shells despatched across the border. They are either old codgers who have no stake in the future, or young codgers with great lateral mobility who are unlikely to be hit by a loose nuke. But that is precisely what makes them so keen on war.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2002010801050100.htm

Mosque gate burnt

JAIPUR, JAN. 7. A wooden gate of a mosque was today burnt by miscreants, setting off communal tension in a village in Rajasthan`s Sikar district, the State`s top police official said. Some unidentified persons threw a burning sack at the gate of the mosque damaging it, Shantanu Kumar, Director General of Rajasthan Police, told PTI here.

Razor-sharp investigation and research Farzana. This is what journalists are made of, one of your best pieces!

Your straight-forward reporting and emotional inquiries gave the document a very ``complete`` feeling. You had me praying for the families, as soon as I finished reading.

I`ve been meaning to say this for a long time, so let me take the opportunity, before I leave on my upcoming vacation:

Don`t explain yourself to every tom, dick and harry who likes to bust your chops just for the heck of it. You are a Muslim, a loyal Indian, an intelligent woman and a thinking individual, the composition is too much for too many. I think it`s wonderful that you interact with everyone on a personal level, but guess what? Not everyone deserves it.

You my dear, are far too busy for bozos who have no life and get entertainment out of bugging minds intellectually superior to them. There are only a few reasons in my opinion, why they do this:

a) You Always answer them.

b) They are simply jealous, for not being articulate and popular enough to voice their views.

c) Most are men, who are pictures of the above-mentioned reason, i.e jealous, but are also intimidated by a woman who can speak her mind with such conviction. They can`t handle it.

So dear sistuh, don`t humor them all, they certainly ain`t worth your time. :) Just my 2 cents.

Regards,

Kiran

urstruly:

Thank you. This is just wonderful. No wonder I call you my friend.

sadna:

Yes, it is possible to get a million signatures, but that might not make an impact. But I am willing to give it a try.

Soldiers are cheap. Officers are not. See how many soldiers died unloading & laying landmines in the last week? It merited no questions, no inquiries and certainly no screaming front-page headlines. (The suckers probably had to transfer the mines into a basket and carry that on their heads. Billion-dollar bullock-cart technology.) They are useful to the extent that the defence higher-ups can make $2000 per coffin. More money in their pockets, the more soldiers dead. The cannon fodder were sent up the cold mountain peaks to fight an entrenched & well-prepared force with poor rations, inadequate clothing and poor equipment. It`s like the old red army that relied on numbers.

A relevant article Farzana - so while the usual bunch of idiots will be all over you - questioning your patriotism, religious leaning and maybe some gender bashing - I hope you will keep raising these issues.

``The country stands silent. Not one political party has included the return of our POWs in its manifesto. Why? ``

The reason is simple - we do not value the lives of our soldiers, oh sure they provide a good photo-op for some politician or any number of ``VIPs`` that we have, but the respect is not there (nor the vote-bank). Just ask the families of the departed soldiers how much running around they have to do to get their dues - all those ex-gratia amounts declared by the minister and those sanctioned Petrol Pumps. The humiliation they have to bear, the palms they have to grease - all because a brave man put his country before his family.

The credo for the cadets at IMA is “The safety, honour and welfare of your country comes first, always and every time; The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next; Your own ease comfort and safety come last, always and every time.” - can you ever think of a politician ascribing to this?

But let us not only blame the politicians, its our apathy that is to blame too, we just don`t care a damn - lets just glorify the soldier and restrict ourselves to lip sympathy.

-

Subroto

Razor-sharp investigation and research Farzana. This is what journalists are made of, one of your best pieces!

Your straight-forward reporting and emotional inquiries gave the document a very ``complete`` feeling. You had me praying for the families, as soon as I finished reading.

I`ve been meaning to say this for a long time, so let me take the opportunity, before I leave on my upcoming vacation:

Don`t explain yourself to every tom, dick and harry who likes to bust your chops just for the heck of it. You are a Muslim, a loyal Indian, an intelligent woman and a thinking individual, the composition is too much for too many. I think it`s wonderful that you interact with everyone on a personal level, but guess what? Not everyone deserves it.

You my dear, are far too busy for bozos who have no life and get entertainment out of bugging minds intellectually superior to them. There are only a few reasons in my opinion, why they do this:

a) You Always answer them.

b) They are simply jealous, for not being articulate and popular enough to voice their views.

c) Most are men, who are pictures of the above-mentioned reason, i.e jealous, but are also intimidated by a woman who can speak her mind with such conviction. They can`t handle it.

So dear sistuh, don`t humor them all, they certainly ain`t worth your time. :) Just my 2 cents.

Regards,

Kiran

Anaryan: Its always best to divorce what is said from who iz saying it... Ive suspended self from that religion nonsense for a few months...

And the wordz were intended to explode on contact.

soysauce #58 ``soldiers are cheap...See how many soldiers died unloading & laying landmines in the last week? It merited no questions, no inquiries and certainly no screaming front-page headlines. `` You could add the thousands of families on both sides of the border who have had to leave their villages for fear of war.

The real victims in the sub-continent are not Kashmiris, not Muslims, not Hindus, not Sikhs, (as some people on chowk like to say, depending on the community they were born in) but the POOR. And the real rascals are those who detract from the poor by ranting about the poor Kashmiris, or the poor refugees of 1947, and so on. Some of these rascals you will find on chowk too, but none of the poor (who do not have access to the internet).

Ah, Sir-T appears...on his trusty steed tragic-colt!

A crptic scribble and he`s gone...chowk readers stare in awe...what coolness...the king of cool!

Here`s the translation of his scribble:

``Keep up good work. Dawood Bhai happy you project correct light on his case. Nice comparison...Bhai and POWs...laughed whole wkend. Check bank next week for small gift. Hosts in karachi happy. Excellent dig at bagpipe and BJP at mid-article. Excellent in-depth coverage of what happens to captured hindians...should dampen war-drum-beating a mite we expect. Plagiarized article content...our secret...hee hee``.

dost-mittar,

``However, please don`t mix this issue with the Dawood case. That case, too, is important because it deals with criminal justice. And in his case, Pakistan has been virtually caught with its hands in the ``cooky jar``.

Dost-ji, aapkay chashmay ka number hamaray chashmay say milta-julta hoga!

regards,

Farzana # 31

[``PS: This business about proving my nationalistic credentials to my Hindu compatriots was quite unnecessary``]

Nahi ji. Read below:

Reply # 32 anarayan

[``But knowing Farzana through her articles.... She is the TNT child who got left behind.``]

Hindus won`t let you and other Indian Muslims forget your ``auqaat``; so I hope you wont get carried away by the secular republic/Sharrukh Khan/Azeem Premji bullcrap.

[``Today is my lucky day. Tell me what I can do. I will. In my small way.``]

I gave you a list of PAF officers missing since `71. These were honorable men in uniform, unlike the Indians that you are fussing over who were caught fighting as merceneries with the Mukti Bahini terrorists. Maybe a call to Indian Ministry of Defence would be a good start?

Farzana # 31

[``PS: This business about proving my nationalistic credentials to my Hindu compatriots was quite unnecessary``]

Nahi ji. Read below:

Reply # 32 anarayan

[``But knowing Farzana through her articles.... She is the TNT child who got left behind.``]

Hindus won`t let you and other Indian Muslims forget your ``auqaat``; so I hope you wont get carried away by the secular republic/Sharrukh Khan/Azeem Premji bullcrap.

[``Today is my lucky day. Tell me what I can do. I will. In my small way.``]

I gave you a list of PAF officers missing since `71. These were honorable men in uniform, unlike the Indians that you are fussing over who were caught fighting as merceneries with the Mukti Bahini terrorists. Maybe a call to Indian Ministry of Defence would be a good start?

Reply Ali1 #66

Now, if only Temporal would write a complementary article:

1998, Kargil - The Collective Amnesia.

Can we get our soldiers` bodies please?

.......

Does not the appeal, “Join the army” sound like a slap to the parents, since their sons were sent to certain death ...in civilian clothes...their carcasses thrown into makeshift ditches...and there they lie...their very mention forbidden.

Did they exist?



Does any pakistani here have the one-ounce of $hit to write this article?

Nope, nary a one.

What allround advice and tongue-clicking though!

Array Trojan-Revolver,

Where are you my friend ? What happened...no reply, no witty repartee ?

Ran out of bullets maybe ? Rotate your cylinder (while holding the butt steady) and check.

For keeping the butt shiny and smooth...as always, call Ali1.

best regards,

FV,

Amazed such issues do not get more coverage. Thanks for the eye-opener.

30 years in prison in a foreign country is a bit too hard even to imagine. I can only theorise that the Indian governemnt and military establishment has a lot to hide from its citizens. Otherwise there`s no humane rationale to support apathy of this magnitude.

I also fail to understand what good Pakistan achieves by keeping people in jail for 30 years. Or is it just wishful thinking on our part? Chances are: our war heroes have been tortured to the point of no return a long time ago. Is it just hope that the relatives are clinging to?

SM

ali1#66

Hindus won`t let you and other Indian Muslims forget your ``auqaat``; so I hope you wont get carried away by the secular republic/Sharrukh Khan/Azeem Premji bullcrap.

## Mullah Ali-jee, don`t worry yourself sick over Farzana`s haal. Worry instead about your own miserable lot back in Pakistan. The way you talk, you`d think Pakistanis live their lives in complete freedom, lack of fear and prosperity. While I can`t say that of 90% of India`s population, I can for sure tell you that Farzana for one is safe with us. Don`t try to woo her across to your side of the border because your Muslim-Muslim bhai-behen sh1t won`t work here. Farzana is smart enough to realise which side her bread is buttered, though she may not always agree with the people who hold the butterknife. Fair enough. But Ali-jee, please don`t make the mistake of equating her with a scared, harassed, teased-and-taunted scarred-for-life victim because I assure you that she`s not!

SM

PS:Farzana,

Pardon the presumptiousness, feel free to contradict/ add/ subrtact whatever.

I do appreciate the comments made by Mona, Zafar, Subroto, dost-mittarji, ali1.

I will encapsulate your concerns in one response.

The reason I brought in Dawood’s name here is to show just how apathetic we are. We are concerned about a few terrorists, but not about those who we expect must fight them.

Why did I bring this up now? As I have already stated, this is not a new story for me; it is a follow-up. However, when I saw this topic being raised at the Agra Summit as part of an important Indo-Pak dialogue, I thought there was hope. However, the two countries again got trapped in their holes. The Saarc Summit is about ALL the nations that comprise it and terrorism in not the only subject on their agenda. The US is not a part of this Summit and since India and Bangladesh can talk about trade links despite the Hindus escaping from that country, I see no reason why we cannot raise an important issue at such a time.



And it is at such a time that people are unashamedly talking about war where we will lose soldiers and more families will suffer. But I can lay a bet that were someone to write about that someday, s/he would be accused of misplaced and false sympathy. What a pathetic world we live in.

My question remains, “The country stands silent. Not one political party has included

the return of our POWs in its manifesto. Why?” Isn’t it therefore strange that my motives for raising the issue are questioned? This is the government’s job and I, among countless others, would like to facilitate it. In the euphoric state after I read urstruly’s post, I even went along with the ‘million signatures’ campaign idea. But the families have made an attempt; nothing happened. Besides, how can citizens approach the head of state of another country when your own government is sleeping?

I have said that in my small way I would do what is possible for the Pak side as well. However, a call to the Defence Ministry is a tad simplistic. I wouldn’t ask any Pakistani to do so. I repeat that those who fought the 1971 war were not mercenaries. People join the Army and are expected to go to battle when they are called. I don’t think they have a choice here about saying, “I smoked but did not inhale” and its military equivalent. Soldiers in our country, and I assume some others, cannot refuse to join because they do not ethically believe in the war. If you ask me, no peace-loving person believes in a war. Except drawing room couch potatoes who want a change from the soap operas. However, if I make any headway on my side, you can rest assured that the Pakistani side of the story will be voiced too.

Regarding the statement, “Hindus won`t let you and other Indian Muslims forget your ‘auqaat’,” I will not indulge in generalizations. Suffice to say that I derive my auquaat from what I believe in and feel about. It would be silly to assume that I can sustain, much less acquire, an identity from those who are desperately trying to murder their own.

“Yeh insaaN ke dushman…samaajoN ki duniya…

yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaaye tau kya ho?”

DRUMZ: Thought you might like a translation of the last line I quoted from the lyrics of a beautiful Hindi film song: “The enemies of humanity, the society of set norms…what would I do anyway with a world such as this?”

Farzana

Kiran (#56):

Let me thank you for reacting ‘humanly’ to this piece.

Now, for your comments regarding the rest and me…there are a few people with me right now who want to hug you :) You are spot on, though agreeing with you might reveal a degree of arrogance that is not intended. And although in my mailbox I do get some such letters, it is sweet of you to have brought it out in the open.

Let me explain. (Here I go again!) I have felt the need to respond because:

1.Some interactors spend a lot of effort in their posts and I believed that even if they did not agree with me, they had a stand that required a reply.

2.I thought it was a learning process for me, a sort of give-and-take; I did not imagine there would be people who would get cheap thrills out of verbal jousting, considering I have never overstepped in my interactions or made nasty personal comments.

3.I guess upbringing has a part to play. I had been taught that salaam ka jawaab dena chahiye; I thought this was an extension of people ‘connecting’. Yes, I have been stupid.

Believe me, your two cents are worth a lot. Enjoy your vacation.

-----

t (#48):

It is a gift indeed….thanks for visiting this Board. Lla si yako. Stol gnineppah. Samajh gaye, na?

psb,

F

Ref Trojan-Horse`s-A$$ #: 74

[You ignorent ,imbecile ,moron could not understand what ``TROJAN`` means????

So whats the use talking to wall..deaf ear....incomprehending fool.]

Yeah, I checked it out at the drug store. It is a condom.

Trojan Horse,

You aren`t upset, are you?

(1)

``HERE IS THE REASON WHY I DONT RESPOND

You ignorent ,imbecile ,moron could not understand what ``TROJAN`` means????``

Hee,Hee...and so you changed ``Colt`` to ``Horse``!!! (This could de-stable-ize you, mind it!)

(2)

``So whats the use talking to wall..deaf ear....incomprehending fool.

First go resd Helen Of Troy saga & then try to guess.``

Boy! I would love to resd this Helen all day...if I knew how?!

best regards,

WEDNESDAY JANUARY 09 2002



Cover story

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C7-2002013426%2C00.html



A state of war



BY TREVOR FISHLOCK



The dispute over Kashmir has brought India and Pakistan to the brink of nuclear war. But why has this beautiful state become the subcontinent`s powder keg?



Poets hymned it as a land of love and languor. In 1627 the dying emperor Jahangir, who shaped its blissful gardens, was asked to name his last desire. “Only Kashmir,” he murmured. “Only Kashmir.”

India’s first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, promised melodramatically that its name was written upon his heart. Today, millions make the same emotive claim.

Passions for Kashmir run hot and bitter, the bayonets almost touch and the urge for war is strong. Two rivals, two ideas, two faiths stand nose to nose in one of the world’s most dangerous places. One mistake or misjudgment and the spark falls on the fuse.

India and Pakistan have fought three wars, two of them over Kashmir. The great bulk of their armies are based along the frontier that runs through Punjab and Kashmir. The border is always tense.

In Kashmir there has been an almost permanent grumbling small war of artillery bombardment. Apart from the all-out conflicts, India and Pakistan have two or three times pulled back from the brink, and now the assessments of their military power have to include their nuclear capability. There was a particularly dangerous stand-off in 1990.

It was inevitable that the terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament on December 13 would bring India and Pakistan once more to the edge of the abyss. It was an echo of the October suicide bomb attack on the Kashmir assembly. The Parliament in Delhi is the heart and emblem of what India stands for. Now India is raging.

Poor Kashmir. It lies in the Himalayan ramparts where the borders of India, Pakistan and China rub together. Reality mocks its beauty. There is no escaping the permeating melancholy of a land that lies under the gun. It is as if malevolent gods, jealous of its loveliness, placed a curse upon it.

The poison entered the garden in 1947 when the war-weary British quit their Indian empire and partitioned it. They had no wish to cut it up: one of their imperial achievements, they said, was to have united India and made it secure. They divided it to meet the demands of Muslim leaders who said that Hindus and Muslims could not live together in one country, that the communities formed two separate nations. Pakistan was therefore created as a homeland for the subcontinent’s Muslims.

Britain ruled India with the co-operation of more than 500 Indian princes, a galaxy of maharajahs, rajahs, ranas, raos, khans, mirs, jams, nizams and nawabs, loyal to the British crown, well-oiled with flattery, some fantastically rich and a few of them barmy. In the summer of 1947, these rulers had to choose whether to take their states into India or Pakistan. It was a personal decision, without referendum.

Public opinion hardly came into it. Most princes joined India. Most knew that they would be extinguishing themselves as a ruling class, but it was clear to all but a few that the game was up. On the eve of independence, all the princes had made up their minds except four.

The Maharajah of Kashmir, Sir Hari Singh, was one of the ditherers. He was vain, pompous and addicted to hunting bears and shooting ducks. As a young man he had an unfortunate scrape in London, being found in bed with a woman at the Savoy Hotel and milked for a lot of money by a blackmailer pretending to be the woman’s husband.

At Partition, Kashmir, more fully known as Jammu and Kashmir, was in a key position: a prize because it was a large state and famously beautiful, a honeymooners’ resort of lakes and cool alpine meadows.

Given its place on the map, it could have swung either to India or to Pakistan. Because of its overwhelming Muslim majority, Pakistan’s new leaders expected that it would join their Islamic entity. But the maharajah had to decide — and he was a Hindu. This was not unusual. In princely India, Muslims often ruled Hindus and vice versa. But Hari Singh dithered. He could not believe that the British would really go home. He did not want to join Pakistan because he could not bear the thought of his state being subsumed. He dreamt that Kashmir could somehow be an independent country and he could keep his power.

India and Pakistan became independent in August. Hari Singh was still dithering in October. As he fiddled, the storm broke. Thousands of Pathan warriors from the North-West Frontier, bordering Afghanistan, rushed into Kashmir, vowing to seize it for Pakistan. Although they were a rabble, they might have succeeded. They were close to Srinagar, the capital, when they were delayed by their lust for loot and women. While they pillaged towns and raped girls and nuns, the hapless Hari Singh gathered up his diamonds and Purdey shotguns and fled his palace in a motorcade.

India acted fast and decisively. In a flurry of action the maharajah agreed to join India, and Indian forces flew to save Srinagar. This was the first Kashmir war, not an all-out confrontation but a series of fights and communal conflicts. Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the leader of Pakistan, wanted to send the new Pakistan regular Army into action, but did not do so when the absurdity of the situation was pointed out to him: the forces of India and Pakistan shared a commander-in-chief, Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck, while many officers on both sides were British.

Kashmir was left divided along the line where fighting stopped in 1948. A United Nations ceasefire came into force on January 1, 1949. In 1965 Pakistan tried and failed to annexe Kashmir and was defeated in brief and bitter fighting. At one stage Indian forces were almost at the gates of Lahore and could easily have taken it. Pakistan’s leaders believed that Kashmiris would welcome Pakistani troops as liberators. It was a shock that they did not. In 1971 India and Pakistan went to war again, India assisting the secession of East Pakistan, which became Bangladesh. Pakistan was left truncated and humiliated.

Yet the story of a vacillating maharajah and the ensuing bloody quarrel over territory is only the half of it.

Kashmir is a tragedy for its divided people and a continuing source of danger in a subcontinent inhabited by a fifth of the world’s population. The tragedy has deep roots. Kashmir is the offspring of bitterly divorced parents. Pakistan aches for it but will never possess it. India will never let it go: it is not negotiable. The trouble is that both sides define themselves by this feud.

Their mutual suspicions date from the 8th-century Muslim conquest of western India and the many hundreds of years of Mogul rule that were brought to an end by the British Raj. For India’s Hindu majority, independence in 1947 was a reclamation of their vast land, the end of centuries of foreign domination. Nehru and others believed passionately that this new India would be a daring concept, an embracing of all its religious, linguistic and regional diversity, a magnificent secular state.

The steely and intractable Jinnah did not believe it. His new country of Pakistan grew out of that scepticism, the belief that Muslims in India would be vulnerable, second-class citizens.

Pakistan was an invented state, a by-product of the great Indian struggle for independence. It evolved in the last few years of British rule among people who wanted to escape religious and political discrimination in the new order. Landowners especially thought they would lose out in India. Democracy barely made the journey to Pakistan.

In a sense Pakistan remains stranded in 1947. Its great debate has centred for half a century on what it is for and what it should be. Jinnah mused that it could be a secular country. But in that case, what was the point of Partition? Some of his successors said that Pakistan was nothing if not Islamic and determined to make it more so, a military theocracy.

Yet Islam proved an unreliable glue. It did not cement Pakistan and East Pakistan. Bangladesh erupted as the assertion of Bengali language and culture. Nor did it cement the disparate parts of Pakistan itself — Punjab, Baluchistan, Sindh and the North- West Frontier — or, indeed, the many shades of Islamic belief. Thus Kashmir is useful, the “unfinished business of Partition”. However much Pakistanis disagree about the nature of their society, they find common cause in Kashmir, the belief that they were robbed in 1947. This is the unifying insult. It is why Pakistan has supported Kashmiri insurgents. India’s treatment of Kashmiris during the long years of internal strife are held as proof that Jinnah was right, that Muslims needed their homeland.

It is true that India could have managed Kashmir more wisely, less roughly. But Pakistan has to live with the fact that there are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan. India has the second largest Muslim population in the world: evidently Hindus and Muslims do live together in a secular society, Nehru’s idea of India, even if it is not always easy. And Kashmir, the only Indian state with a Muslim majority, is in Indian minds the shining fact of secular India. Its existence throws the question to Pakistan again: what was Partition for? India has a powerful idea of its identity. It is the giant of South Asia, its Armed Forces are huge and it is proud of its democracy, even if this is somewhat battered. Pakistan, on the other hand, does not enjoy such a positive identity. It thinks of itself in terms of its neighbour and endures the negative of being Not India.

It means that even if the impossible were to happen, that Kashmir should somehow become part of Pakistan, the anxieties and insecurities of Pakistan would endure. There would have to be another issue by which Pakistan could seek to establish its identity and purpose.

In the meantime the two nations face each other again — and judging from what we see and hear, there are many on both sides desperate to fight. Centuries of prejudice are poured into the funnel of Kashmir.

People on both sides treasure the slights of history. There is an endless misunderstanding of each other’s beliefs and opinions. Estrangement is total. Trivial matters become huge. Hindu nationalists complain that Muslims cheer for Pakistan during Test matches. In both India and Pakistan, keen teams of monitors comb through guide books and encyclopaedias searching for maps that might contain instances of “cartographic aggression” — inaccuracies that seem to favour one side or the other.

Words are traps, and there is a sense that a co