The Identity Crisis of a Modern Muslim

Hobbyty,

Thanks for that detailed response. I will get back asap.

re: Dost-Mittar # 372

Dost-Mittar ji, in my weaker moments I pretend to be smart. And that, as you know very well, is the easiest thing to do :)

Regards.

re: Hamidm # 381

``hindoos and eskimos``

Ha Ha Ha! Of all your stabs at us Hindoos, hamidm, this was the deepest...

eskimos, indeed! :)

Carry on, sir...

Shammi, Prem, Zafar, Sadna, Hamid, Sameer, Hobbtyty,

Really enjoying and learning from this thread!

Reply Hairmau # 377

[“I once attended a classical Indian dance recital in which one of the performances was based on Ganesha and the dancer/choreographer did a great job miming not only his elephant-nosedness but his sideways headshaking and flappy ear-waving just like elephants do, actually she incorporated the swaying walk too .. :)”

“I can imagine the headshaking and the swaying walk but flapping the ears?”]

Actually, this is done by using the arm in a curve away from the body, so the body functions as the elephant head, and the arm sways (not flaps!) like the elephant ear. It’s very graceful. No, really. (You should see Alarmel Valli, for example, doing this.)

Aiyaiyappo, what kind of aandagundoo you are? Have you never gone to arangetram even? Yakkachakka strange…and then defending classical Indian culture against…

Reply Sadna # 375

sadna

“I thought we were on to `freedom of conscience` now? Which reminds me, is there or isn`t there a theologically-legitimate mode of debate in which it is morally/doctrinally allowable to dissemble/ even use falsehoods to gain the theological point?”

Please address your question to the Maestro, that is to say, to Shri Urstruly.

Reply anNy # 369

[``I’m convinced that I’m related to anNy.``

“you say that like its a bad thing :0(“]

Entirely in the eye of the beholder. Please explain yourself. I am very hurt.

Zafar

Reply Hobbyty # 370

[Moi:``Keep in mind – Hindutvawadis don’t OWN Indian history. In fact they don’t even own Hinduism – something which many Hindus on this board have gone out of their way to explain to you.``

My honoured colleague:“You keep this in mind - Who is rewriting Indian history books? You? Who is introducing Astrology as subjects fit for school? You? How is renaming cities and historical sites from a predominantly Hindu nationalist point of view? Get the plug out.”]

Hobbyty – that proves my point. Hindutvawadis have no right to rewrite Indian History because they are not the only ones who “own” it. Neither do they have the right to say that their particular understanding of Hinduism is definitive, because they are not the only Hindus.

Re: archaeology and ideology. Archaelogical findings are just bits of bone etc. – without a paradigm to place them in a historical (or prehistorical) context, they make no sense. And this paradigm is always ideological, and by its nature has something to say about present day society…

“As for you being a Muslim and not a Hindutva supporter and not having a problem with renaming archeological sites - grow up, who cares if you agree or disagree - this isn`t a popularity contest - it`s whether it`s right or wrong.”

Uff, let’s go through this logically.

A You think that this “Re-naming” thing is inspired by Hindutva ideology.

B I am not pro Hindutva ideology.

C I think the re-naming thing is ok.

D You think the renaming thing is wrong. (Implied: because of A)

One of first three conditions has to be wrong. Either (1) what you say you think is not correct, or (2) what I say I think is not correct, or (3) I am an undercover RSS Activist.

OR…the renaming thing is wrong because of a reason other than Hindutva-ity.

Pick an option :-)

And bhai, you’re right, it’s not about a popularity contest – it’s about what one thinks is right or wrong. Here we disagree. Garam hone se kya faida?

The fact is, I do not feel that you explain your positions well – many unrelated quotes, leaps of logic which are not explained, etc. – and I say this as a friend. I do think you believe what you’re writing, and that’s why I pretty much always put in the effort to try and figure it out – even if I pretty much always disagree with you in the end :-) So far I have not understood the reasoning behind your position on this clearly. I would like to – that’s why I’d like to keep our exchange on this measured, and not too emotional. OK? Main tho koshish karoonga.

“On Freedom on conscience - The definition you posted is what I had in mind. The freedom to believe whatever or not.”

Combine this with “each individual’s belief system does not alter that individual’s social rights or obligations, and does not include the right to increase or decrease other individuals’ social rights and obligations because of how their beliefs are perceived” and you get a good definition of secularism.

I can’t see anything in this which stops an individual from being a good Muslim, and bringing their children up to be the same way. Islam does NOT need to be afraid of other paradigms and other ideas. Secularism does no harm to the individual’s practice of Islam. Do you concede my point?

Zafar

aicha #371, ``A chinese restaurant serving chicken claws is the same as a French restaurant serving

frogs legs is the same as any other serving fried brains or pigs entrails.``

yummy,,,don`t tempt my taste buds like this aicha.

hobbyty

you ask, ``why the ideas of Liberty, pluralism, tolerance and freedom of conscience are bad ideas for Muslims``? `` ... now that is a disingeneous question, if i ever heard one ....

..... no one ever said they are bad ideas for muslims, or for that matter, hindoos or eskimos .... unfortunately, it is not possible in the case of ``good muslims`` because these ideas are in direct conflict with their ideology, as enshrined in the koran and sunnah ..... it is a horrible idea for people who not only believe in sixth century bedouin cultural and political values, but are also willing to die for them .......

.... we could go into the many specific examples again and again, but that would be beating a dead camel ..... how can you even begin to talk about pluralism when you start from the premise that your god is right and the elephant-nosed one deserves to drown ......

.... let`s not get into an academic discussion about ``true islam`` and the merits of polygamy, slavery and watwani - it will be an exercise in futility ..... trust me, the heathen concepts of pluralism and tolerance will only lead a good muslim to blasphemy and subsequently to hell and damnation .....

P.S. somehow elephant-nosed sounds worse than elephant-face(d) ...the object being to rile the unsuspecting ``horrible`` hindoo .... but, as prof hobbs ``hapless`` victims they do deserve our sympathy ......

``why the ideas of Liberty, pluralism, tolerance and freedom of conscience are bad ideas for Muslims``?

They are bad for Islam when applied in earnest. Also include freedom of expression in the above list. Sure, Kashmir, Taliban, Chechniya, Mindanao, civil war in Somalia and famine, killings in Algeria are all about liberty, pluralism and tolerance. So are the blasphemy law, hudood ordinance, shariah, fiqah, shariat courts, questions about religion on passport form and increasing minorities through branding Ahmedis as non-Muslim (yeah, declare some major sect as non-Muslim and claim to create an induced multi-religious plural society). Ask Ahmedis about their liberty and freedom of conscience. Yeah, Enron CEO is planning to write book about the success of capitalism and hobbyty is backing bankrupt ideology with long posts at chowk. Is he buying Enron shares too?

By the way, the Musharraf overthrowing civilian government and planning to stay on at least another five years is also because of his liberty -liberty to overthrow and liberty to rule. Pakistanis must tolerate it. You tolerate my liberty is the meaning of liberty, tolerance, freedom of conscience, according to hobbyty. The limits of his liberty are set by revelation while others must tolerate his liberty with reason. Huzoor, kaheeN aap ka ta`alluq aslaaf se to naheeN?

I tolerated liberty of Islamic medium for almost 30 years and all I got out of it was a lota and an Imam zamin. Here at internet medium, you had liberty from day one to post 10-page long sermons. Please learn to tolerate others liberty too. You just can not win a competition by name calling, without knowing the individual. Remember, taliban must have cursed the high flying airplanes also but to no avail. Cursing only bears fruit for self appointed prophets in cooked up revealed history.

You are welcome, anyway, to a name calling competition with a Punjabi.

Hobby 368: I for one am glad the Quran didnt come through you... your post almost took up the entire page, Allah doesnt even have the time to read that. Get a hobby, jeezus...

Here` a recommendation. Once u write a post, scroll down to line 30, left click the mouse (and hold it down), take the pointer as far down as there is writing (this can take a few minutes), right-click, press delete and presto.

Re aicha 371

Ah this brings back some memories of B`lore. Sukh sagar faloodas were very good. And there used to be a bakery in the basement on Brigade road right by the intersection of Church St that served some great chilly pineapple cake.

But the best thing about Bangalore yet is that your blasted politicians are yet to rename the city with some historically stupid name. They did that to Bombay, Calcutta and Madras. It must be that legendary kannadiga laziness [I`m skating on very thin ice here, I realize] or that damn parthenium weed.

Re Rsaxena, he is morally opposed to ching chow, so what.

Ref sadna #: 365

[hamidm #350

``perfectly good elephant nosed gods``

Its elephant-headed, take a look at his ears sometime.]

I have given up trying to convince hamidm that Ganesh has the head of an elephant not just the nose.

He needs to be dragged out to the Ganesh Temple in Flushing, NY, and told to take a good look. Who knows, he might rush back to the safety of his Macallen.

[I once attended a classical Indian dance recital in which one of the performances was based on Ganesha and the dancer/choreographer did a great job miming not only his elephant-nosedness but his sideways headshaking and flappy ear-waving just like elephants do, actually she incorporated the swaying walk too .. :)]

I can imagine the headshaking and the swaying walk but flapping the ears?

Sadna

Actually I don`t know - to the best of my knowledge I have not encountered such a concept.

hobbyt #370
`` that was cute, especially for someone who champions a 3000 year old mythic river - are you back on medication? ``

Hey I can`t really tell. Its the Pakistani government which is actually digging along this so-called mythic river in this Mad Hatter world when down is up.

I thought we were on to `freedom of conscience` now? Which reminds me, is there or isn`t there a theologically-legitimate mode of debate in which it is morally/doctrinally allowable to dissemble/ even use falsehoods to gain the theological point?

AAmir

Re Bahraini princess - the Oppressed Muslim woman

Imagine a non-Western man became involved with a under 18 years Western or American teenager - then this man plans the elopement of this teenager and takes her to another country - Imagine this man is also a soldier of a non-Western Country:

The first thing in the Western and US press would be the kidnapping of a teenage sex slave.

Charges of statutory rape against the man

Diplomatic activity

The distressed parents and family of teenager would be on every news show and talk show - with the audience being led to the direction that the man being older, the teenager, under 18 years gullible and ``in love`` had been taken to a ``strange` country with ``foreign`` practices.

But instead, she`s Muslim, any misdemeanor or crime to ``liberate`` her, is a mercy, a ``human`` act of kindness. Oh well, live and learn, I guess, the world is not necessarily a fair place.

Profound? Nope. That was a very practical arrangement. OP apple pies were worth dying for.

Reminds me of another instance. We used to have an expensive private hospital on the Gaziabad Road. One day a liquor shop came up right across from it. Nobody ever believed that the liquor-shop owner wasn`t working for those doctors.