The Identity Crisis of a Modern Muslim

drumz

... thanks for trying to defend me against the wrath of hobbs:

``this doesnt mean he doesnt share some of your ideas on Islam``

...... good can be found in the strangest places and islam is no exception ... god knows i have looked for goodness in all kinds of places - communist study cirles in the little professor`s baithak in purani anarkali, mazdoor kissan party rallies, salma bai`s kotha in heera mandi, uch sharif and bari imam and data sahib, bars and brothels in the civilized world .....

..... the islam practiced at data sahib or bari imam is a wonderful thing, and i have no quarrel with it - it can be a real trip (specially on the malangs` bhang) ..... heck, whether we like to admit it or not, we all have a terrible time accepting our mortality and at some point in life it is useful to have a god to turn to - even one with a silly elephant nose ...... i for one have been known to pray in synagogues, churches, public toilets and other equally strange places ....... of course, i would never set foot inside a hindoo mandir for patriotic reasons - but then one should never say never ...

.....but islam, as depicted on the cover of last month`s national geographic, is a horrible thing .... there he is, a crazy old man holding a dagger in one hand and covering his poor son`s face with the other - it is frightening ! ..... how do i explain schizophrenia to a seven year old who can`t sleep at night because she thinks god might visit her father too ......that, jiziya, and blasphemy laws are the bad parts of islam that i and hobbyty will always disagree on ......

Hobby: When people criticize u it means u need to be criticized. No one is saying u are a fool and everyone would be thrilled if your vision of Islam existed. If u tell your views to almost everyone, they would agree with u completely. Hamid is playing devils advocate by presenting you with the other side (this doesnt mean he doesnt share some of your ideas on Islam).

Dont spend your time trying to convince him of your path. Thats NOT the point (message, not messenger). The point is to consider things from the angle his showing u - so that u can refine your own beleifs.

We all know that following the spirit of Islam is wonderful. U dont have to convince us of that. Some of us simply present you with obstacles, because one cannot learn through agreement.

Dost: Come up to Toronto and Ill show what GOOD music really sounds like.

Ref dost-mittar #: 416

[We poor folks in Ottawa can`t afford any of these artists (sigh!!)]

I don`t know about the arts scene in Montreal anymore but Toronto is not too far from Ottawa for a drive once in a while.

Prem to hobbyty:#431

Dear Prem:

That was a marvelously accurate analysis of Indian political scene -- pre and post independence.

You’re right -- what prevented Indian politics from developing religious obsession -- was to a large extent -- due to the the healthy influence of -- leftist/Marxist AND Nehru’s secular humanism.

However, Gandhi`s role was not minimal –- he had an uncanny rapport with the rural India – by his mixing of benign religiosity and secularism -- in Indian struggle of Independence

The fact that the RSS is still unable to sway rural India -- may be mostly due to the lingering Ghandian influence. What do you think?

harimau #411
``She has an earned PhD in Dance and her thesis was that the various postures depicted in the (South Indian) temple sculptures are actually poses described in various early texts on Bharath Natyam.``

Padma Subrahmanyam did a series for TV too, based on the temple in Chidambaram.

Rdesikan - it is Sweet Chariot. Their pineapple/black forest pastries are to die for. BTW have you ever had Nilgiri`s Plum cake - that is my only request whenever my folks come here and maybe KC Das rasogullas. MTR is way overrated in my opinion.

scout - that clearly was NOT the intent : )

rsaxena - okey !!

layman - ????

aicha

hamidm #410
``frau sadna goebbels``
I have now assigned you to camp 11West along with hobbyt, thats fraulein.
``there is nothing to be proud of if you actually believe in an elephant-nosed god ``
I got a bit misled, I had it on good authority he was perfectly good. OK so now I`m abashed. Lets see, who else then? Britney Spears? Her nose is much prettier, I agree, though not as useful. A much prettier midriff, too. However, she can`t move her ears and I just cannot believe what she says, alas :)

Hobbyty,

Let me use a few minutes I have to write you a brief note on Marxist/leftist influence on India. I hope you will excuse any errors since this is being written in a bit of a hurry.

It goes without saying that the Marxist/communist tradition has been quite strong in India. The Indian roots of this tradition go deep, to early 1920s. The Russian Revolution of 1917 inspired many Indians, among them communist stalwarts like M.N. Roy.

Even today, CPI/CPM are deeply entrenched in West Bengal(where Jyoti Basu was in power close to 25 long years) and Kerala. But their influence is wider: in UP for instance, communists can often play a deciding role in local elections.

Some people have argued that had Communists indianized themselves in their early years, they would have spread like wild fire; but they continued to seek their inspiration from outside (USSR, China), and thus failed to really catch the attention of a majority of the populace.

However, this Marxist/Leninist/communist tradition is really not where the bulk of the leftist influence on India comes from. This is, IMO, the ``Nehru Effect.``

Now, Nehru was not the only leftist, not even the leading one. But in his charisma, and in the positions he held, he both reflected and became a source of, a very strong undercurrent of Indian thought that the state had a pro-active role to play on the side of the poor and the weaker sections of the society.

Thus the true intellectual fathers of modern India are not Gandhi, Hindu Mahasabha members, or the Muslim League; but people like Nehru and Homi Jehangir Bhabha - secularists, leftists, ``modernists`` - people who did not want to use religion for public discourse.

To the best of my knowledge, not many of such people made it to Pakistan, except for people like (Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Manto, and Iqbal Ahmed (though Dr. Ahmed was in his early teens, and followed his brothers to Pakistan, while his mother stayed back in India). Although he aligned himself with the Muslim League and used Islam to create Pakistan, I have a feeling that Jinnah too would have been a left-of-the-center leader had he lived longer. I may be wrong here, but this is not important to my argument.

Note that none of these people were anti-religion. They were proud Hindus, Parsis, and Muslims - Dr. Ahmed, in particular, as he aged, increasingly refused to see any problems in Islam, and began to see conspiracies against Islam everywhere - but they were also proud leftists.

Such leftist/socialist orientation of these leaders makes a lot of sense, or at least, is easy to understand. They had seen the state act as a powerful exploitative agency. They believed it to be the cause of much misery, unequal distribution of wealth, and the economic/industrial backwardness of their lands. They wanted to put the same power of the state to use in order help/lift the poor masses they saw all around them...This was the ideology well expressed at the Bandung (sp?) conference which gathered the leading leaders from Asia, Africa, and China, sometime in 1950s.

In any case, it is this leftist orientation that has been the most dominant intellectual force in India since independence. It is under most direct assault now from Hindu chauvnists who use the economic failure of socialist policies to advance their own narrow agenda. To some extent these forces have been quite successful. In concert with other parties, BJP has even captured power at the center. But although people are right to be apprehensive of it, BJP of today is not the Jansangh of yesterday, or the Hindu Mahasabha of the day before. Mercifully, it is turning into post-independence congress clone - a hotch potch of corrupt and opportunistic elements. The Nehruvian ideal remains very strong even at the village level, where it is difficult to get people swayed to RSS`s exclusivist Hindu-Muslim ideology.

I can tell you that in the rural area I come from, RSS has run a shakha (branch) for years, and has made absolutely no dent. They would not be able to gather a dozen people for any purpose which is not purely religious.

Notice that neither Nehru`s leftist children nor the right-wing politics of BJP carry Gandhi`s legacy. Gandhi - even though he may be the most ``visible`` face of India to some outside - is effectively dead in India (a fact that might rile ylh if he found out that Gandhi really doesn`t matter to most Indians that much anymore :)).

So, yes...a great deal of Indian states`s and Hindu approach to caste/varna/jati springs from this left-of-the-center thinking that sees caste as an unmitigated disaster, with nothing to retrieve from it.

The rest later...

Surely a part of identity is knowing what kind of

a fool one is. In a commentary on the

Bhagavad Gita verse 15:19, a gentleman

elaborates (taken from the IndianCivilization

egroup). Hope this helps in self-identification.

-Arun

Remark by Visu: Verse 15:19. One who knows

Me wisely thus as the Most Exalted Person

(Purusha), not left out in anything, any

concept, or any being, and worships me with

all his heart, all his soul, and all his might and

all of everything, he receives me unmitigatedly.

Remark on terminology. Here the Lord has

choosen to describe  wisdom not as wisdom

but being not a fool! He does not say, ``Know

Me in your wisdom`` but, ``Know me by being

not a fool``. That is one who does not try to

know Him is verily a fool. The word used is

``ASammMu_daha``: A fool who closes himself

or herself to knowing. Thus any kind of

restriction or exclusiveness is just a form of

foolishness. Do not say, ```God is this and that`.

I am that and more. Know that if you are not a

fool.``

Hinduism describes a fool in five ways. That is

there are at least five kinds of fools, and if you

combine them in different forms you get 31

types. (two to the fifth power minus the one

who is free from all of them). The five kinds 

are:

1. Closed-minded fool: Mu_daha: One who

closes the doors to new explorations and new

possibilities. This is the word used in the

above verse. He or she makes a rule, a law,

and restricts himself or herself to that as the

only one and the best. He/she does not have

outreach. Seemingly a wise person, but a fool

in a subtle way until he or she recognizes God

in the above Light!

2. Storage fool or stale fool: Makku: One who

foolishly clings to old stuff and does not

refresh himself or herself. He/she loves

canned food, things that have been stored for

so long that they smell, even though only

slightly. He/she goes for packed stuff. He

revels in this food and never cooks fresh food,

always buying the old at cheap prices. 90 %

off marked price!

3. Organized fool: Matti. This is derived from

Mata. For example, Sankara Mata is a Mata. A

church is a Mata. Any organization is a Mata.

The foolishness that is derived from being

forced to stick to the company`s mission

statement gives to an extraordinary fool called

Matti. This fool is a dedicated member of such

organizations, and only of  them. A Jiha_di is a

Matti, according to this definition. A Marxist is

also a Matti.

4. Folded fool: Madayan. This fellow is limited

by his/her vision. Even though the full sheet is

available to him or her, he/she folds the sheet

and says that he would work only with the

folded sheet. The famous poet SubraManya

Bharathiya_r refers to this kind of foolishness

in a song: ``Ma_dhar Thammai Izivu Ceyyum

Madamaiyaik Kozuththuvo_m: We will ignite

and set fire to the folded foolishness by which

we put down women.

Putting down women and not treating them as

equals is precisely folding the sheet into half

and working with the folded sheet. It is the

best example that I know of a folded fool. I

would love to have concrete examples of the

various forms of foolishness descibed in our

languages.

A Madayan does not make use of all available

resources.

5. Walled fool: Mutta_L. This fellow thinks that

the world consists of the space bounded by

the four walls inside which he or she lives. He

or she loves to control the world from inside

the four walls.

All these fools are non-violent. There are fools

who are violent. For example, a Mu_rka_.  That

is a different story. The Gi_tha_ does not

address it except in the context of the GuNa_s.

The most pitiable form of foolishness

according to the Gi_tha_ is of the subtle kind

described above.

You can see that of the available epithets for

being a fool, the Gi_tha has chosen the most

liberal and the most subtle.

Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 404

[Harimau - picked up Mallika Sarabhai from the airport? Man, I am impressed. Now slay me and tell me you`ve done that for (current fave BN dancer) Alarmel Valli. Please! How about Aditi Mangaldas? (Kathak, but still...)]

Alarmel Valli? Drove her up from eastern United States to Montreal for her performance (quite a while back). A friend of mine in Madras who wanted his daughter to learn from Valli asked me for an introduction. I could never get around to doing that though I was visiting Madras for an extended period at that time so one day he just went up to her home and mentioned he was my friend and got his daughter accepted as a student. Now, THAT is clout!

Chauffered around Padma Subrahmanyam and her troupe too. Doing that at 12 midnight after the performance and getting all those 17- and 18-year-old silly girls into the van so that I could go home and catch some tiddlywinks wasn`t easy, I can tell you. Have you seen Padma dance? She has an earned PhD in Dance and her thesis was that the various postures depicted in the (South Indian) temple sculptures are actually poses described in various early texts on Bharath Natyam. She manages to incorporate some of those poses in her dance program and it is indeed quite amazing. I don`t know if she can still do it... you know, age and the flexibility thing.

Great thing is that I moved to a totally different area and stayed away from the dance and music scene so nobody asks me anymore to do all the legwork associated with runing these programs. They are murder, I can tell you.

Anytime you want to associate with these folks in Australia, let me know. I will give you an introduction to folks in Sydney who are into these cultural programs and you can kiss your weekends and free time goodbye if you choose to volunteer!

ganesh fan club

.....it is a relief to know that the unwashed masses who infest the land on the wrong side of the border are almost as kooky, if not more, than the god-crazed wild-eyed tribes that inhabit allah`s side of the great divide ....... thank you for making me feel better about ourselves ! .... for a while i thought you guys had actually evolved up the ladder - what with bangalore, iit grads, half-naked bollywood wenches, an actual constitution that accepts secualrism in principle and hamburger-loving brahmins who appreciate good whiskey ........

......so really, this identity question doesn`t amount to a hill of beans and prof hobbs and frau sadna goebbels are wasting their time debating the merits and origins of a civilization which doesn`t deserve any serious consideration ..... so what if the river existed or not - there is nothing to be proud of if you actually believe in an elephant-nosed god or a god who tells a demented old man to slaughter his son .....

``Suppose the identity/identities we have fashioned for ourselves are much larger in scope, encompassing more than just history, or history of a given period, with no fundamental dependence on what the oldest diggings tell us. Thats not only closer to the truth but we have more room to accept things as they come.``

Sadna,

That, in itself, is a way of viewing the world that ideologists will readily label an ideology (it is NOT, but fear of distorting well-established concepts to suit their arguments has never stopped ideologists before).

All ideologists begin with conclusions, and look for facts (or things that can be passed off as a facts) to strengthen their conclusions (all Indian past was Hindu - we are Hindus; we were all born Muslim - we are Muslims; etc etc). In that sense, dissimluation or shading of the truth comes naturally to ideologists. Without such control over facts, all ideologies will be rapidly exposed to be what they are - less than half-truths.

Interaction-control, information (facts)- control, dissimulation, and ritual - these are the stuff of ideologies.

hobbyty

``You say it not possible for ``good Muslims`` - I ask you to consider seriously, why is it that I am not included among the ranks of these ``good Muslims``? Must we surrender to obscuritanism, so you may be proved right?``

sorry - you misunderstood me ..... you actually fit the definition of the ``good muslim`` to a t - you are momin personified .... what i was referring to is the fact that if are a ``good`` muslim then, by definition, you cannot believe in blasphemous things like secularism, pluralism and the rights of ahmedis, elephant-gods and women .....

........but if, as shammi suggest, you actually believe that sharia is oppressive and ahmedis, women and hindoos are human, then welcome to modernity and the ranks of ``bad`` muslims ........

Zafar #404
`` thereby outlining the motion - presenting its essentials in abstract``

True, and so imbued with grace, too. Speaking of the abstract and the sublimated, have you watched any Kathakali performances? They barely move their feet, and tell a story with their hands and expressions..
btw, I once travelled from Delhi to Lucknow with Birju Maharaj and Saswati Sen(of Shatranj Ke KhilaDi fame) and their families in the next railway compartment, hows that for my own claim to fame :)?

Irfan Hussain in Dawn, on secularism in Pakistan: ``Saying the `S` Word``

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

Hobbyty

Thanks for the link; I`ll be checking it out.

rgds